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QB Jordon Love The Colts Firt Round Pick?


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5 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

I'm not arguing against your point, I think.  Your point and my point can co-exist.  

 

All I'm saying is we don't have to do something stupid this year and impact future years.  Not drafting a QB could obviously impact future years, as well.  But because no one can really predict draft classes with pinpoint accuracy, its even more unpredictable for future years.  Draft wisely, and things tend to work themselves out.  There's always a couple good QB prospects every year.  Whether they succeed in the NFL is a different story, but for every QB that we've predicted would be a strong NFL QB and hit, we have a 10 more we could easily say were wrong (for better or worse).  So, spend wisely and trust your evaluations and coaching staff to get the right prospect.

That isn’t what anyone is saying. Of course you don’t do something stupid. The point was if you have a QB you believe in is the guy this year you go get them. Never mentioned anything about doing anything stupid.

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4 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

When did I say there were reports that showed his arm strength as a negative?

I agree, I don't think arm strength is a top 5 attribute for QBs.  All I stated was his arm does not look as strong as a lot people are trying to claim.

I didn't say, that you said, it was a negative. Just pointing out you're the only one I've seen even begin to question that element of his game. If accuracy is a prerequisite to arm strength, I'd say his arm strength + accuracy are tops in this draft if that were the only factor.

 

Definitely more power than Burrow or Tua. Only Herbert and Eason are comps, and Love is probably the most accurate deep than those 3. 

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34 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

I don't think that's necessarily a problem, we have control over, though.  I mean sure he could trade up or down and manipulate draft position to get a guy that can at least challenge JB.  I'd prefer to secure the future stocking the roster, and tout out a capable backup for another year.  Projecting QBs is just something tha'ts nearly impossible for any team to do, let alone us commoners.  Even then, the only guys I really like this year are Burrows and Love so far.  I'm terrified of drafting Tua and I haven't watched Herbert yet.  I don't like Eason and I think Fromm is basically another Jacoby Brissett.  Other prospects I may look at, but now we're getting into the 3rd round and below long(er) shots.

I don’t think it’s a problem either.  While I dislike the idea of going through another year without a franchise QB in the building, it’s a far superior option to drafting what isn’t available when pro bowl talent is available at BPA.

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3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I didn't say, that you said, it was a negative. Just pointing out you're the only one I've seen even begin to question that element of his game.

Again, I'm not questioning that element of his game... just stating it does not appear to be as good as some people are saying.  I guess, I can be more clear, I think of the top 10 QBs in this draft he appears to have the 2nd strongest arm behind Herbert.

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

If accuracy is a prerequisite to arm strength, I'd say his arm strength + accuracy are tops in this draft if that were the only factor.

Accuracy is not a prerequisite to arm strength

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Definitely more power than Burrow or Tua. Only Herbert and Eason are comps, and Love is probably the most accurate deep than those 3. 

I disagree with that... deep accuracy is what the reports are saying, it's not what the game film is showing.  Again I'm not talking about highlights because those are only going to show the times when it wasn't an issue, but watching every throw of a game shows that his deep ball accuracy is not great.

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8 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Mahomes just finished his third season. Love has yet to play a down in the nfl. It is not fair to compare them right now. All anyone has said is that Love makes a lot of off script plays like Mahomes. His ability to make plays when things break down is similar. Anyone who is saying they are comparable at this point when Mahomes is finishing his third season are silly. All anyone is saying is they have some similar traits.

...why isn't it fair to compare?    I'm not arguing he HAS to be Mahomes or even like him, but those comparisons began before I ever commented on the thread.  So I'm not sure why you didn't raise your complaint before, but I disagree with you. 

 

Anyone talking about what Love is and what Love needs to be to have NFL success starts with an evaluation of what his talents and deficiencies are now, and how/if those things can get to the level of guys who are currently succeeding in the NFL.  It's not about how much more Love sucks compared to Mahomes.  It's how long does he have to go before he can emulate a part of his game similar to Mahomes game....or Manning's game....or Lamar's game...or Rodgers' game.  Every QB has their strengths and weaknesses and no one is exactly like someone else, but because what we're comparing is more complicated than a timed 40 yard dash or bench press reps, the only thing we can do is compare to other QBs.  Unless you're suggesting we start moving to a more mathematical approach to judging QBs talking about comparing time in between each QBs progression reads to the time he throws, to the angle and velocity required to throw the ball 37 yards to a place where a the hands of the receiver will be if traveling at X velocity, just 6 feet over the sideline at roughly 5 feet above the ground...

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I've seen several people equate Fromm with Jacoby now. Is that due to people thinking just strictly "Game Manager"? Because even though I don't see Fromm as this blue chip prospect right now, there definitely seems like there are differences. Jacoby can fire a pass with some heat on it, whereas I don't see Fromm being able to put that kinda speed on it. But then Fromm to me as a great deep ball touch. It might only go up to a max of 55 yards, but hey, I'll take it. Just look at Brees. And then there is definitely the differences with how Jacoby/Fromm stand and maneuver in the pocket. Just trying to understand why I see the comparisons of the two?

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6 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

...why isn't it fair to compare?    I'm not arguing he HAS to be Mahomes or even like him, but those comparisons began before I ever commented on the thread.  So I'm not sure why you didn't raise your complaint before, but I disagree with you. 

 

Anyone talking about what Love is and what Love needs to be to have NFL success starts with an evaluation of what his talents and deficiencies are now, and how/if those things can get to the level of guys who are currently succeeding in the NFL.  It's not about how much more Love sucks compared to Mahomes.  It's how long does he have to go before he can emulate a part of his game similar to Mahomes game....or Manning's game....or Lamar's game...or Rodgers' game.  Every QB has their strengths and weaknesses and no one is exactly like someone else, but because what we're comparing is more complicated than a timed 40 yard dash or bench press reps, the only thing we can do is compare to other QBs.  Unless you're suggesting we start moving to a more mathematical approach to judging QBs talking about comparing time in between each QBs progression reads to the time he throws, to the angle and velocity required to throw the ball 37 yards to a place where a the hands of the receiver will be if traveling at X velocity, just 6 feet over the sideline at roughly 5 feet above the ground...

You can’t compare Mahomes  now vs Love. Of course he isn’t as good right now.  All anyone is doing is comparing some of their similar traits. To think Love is at Mahomes level is absurd right now. I don’t think anyone is doing that. 

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5 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Well, I don’t know about comparing Mahomes to Love right now, but I do think Mahomes was the better prospect coming out of college.

It would of been interesting to see Love at a bigger program. There was talk he might transfer to Texas tech where his old coach was. It’s so hard to know really get a handle on him. That’s probably why some teams might take a pause before taking him.

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5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You can’t compare Mahomes  now vs Love. Of course he isn’t as good right now.  All anyone is doing is comparing some of their similar traits. To think Love is at Mahomes level is absurd right now. I don’t think anyone is doing that. 

You have either not read my entire comment or you have misunderstood  the entire post.   

 

It's perfectly legitimate to compare them.  Both came out of college, and both have similarities to their game.  Where was Mahomes at when he came out of college and what is he now, 3 years later?  In what ways is Love similar to Mahomes (or Brady, or Rodgers or Lamar) when he(they) came out of college?  Is that developmental gap between Mahomes from 2017 to 2019 too much for Love to handle?  

 

Sorry...you are wrong.  If you don't want to understand, that's fine.  Just say that.  But dont' tell me that there's no reason to compare players and its' not fair to do so just because you think I'm comparing how good the 2018 NFL MVP is to a QB who hasn't even been drafted yet.  Because that's not what I'm doing and if you think that, you are hung up on the wrong thing.

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30 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Again, I'm not questioning that element of his game... just stating it does not appear to be as good as some people are saying.  I guess, I can be more clear, I think of the top 10 QBs in this draft he appears to have the 2nd strongest arm behind Herbert.

Accuracy is not a prerequisite to arm strength

From a pureness perspective, OK, but arm strength has little benefit without accuracy.

30 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I disagree with that... deep accuracy is what the reports are saying, it's not what the game film is showing.  Again I'm not talking about highlights because those are only going to show the times when it wasn't an issue, but watching every throw of a game shows that his deep ball accuracy is not great.

I've watched highlights, lowlights, and pure game film on him (I plan to watch more). Even after changing both coaches and scheme, and losing 9 of his starters from 2018 (all of his WRs, RBs, and TEs), he still had one of the best clean pocket ratings, and one of the best "money throw" ratings in CFB. His deep accuracy took a bit of a hit due to desperation/hero ball, but he still had plenty of quality deep passes.

 

In one article I read, the separation of his WRs/TEs decreased by more than 50% from 2018 (causing his tight throw % to increase a lot), and he also lost a ton of speed at WR. His best WR was a grad trasfer from Utah who couldn't even crack the starting line up there in 4 years. And that WR was only a 4.65ish guy... His second leading WR was only 5-9 and tested out at 4.96 per ESPN lol. His third leading WR was 5-7 and ran a 4.7.... In short, that's a very slow and small WR crew... And folks think JB had it bad.

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54 minutes ago, harrisoncolts88 said:

I've seen several people equate Fromm with Jacoby now. Is that due to people thinking just strictly "Game Manager"? Because even though I don't see Fromm as this blue chip prospect right now, there definitely seems like there are differences. Jacoby can fire a pass with some heat on it, whereas I don't see Fromm being able to put that kinda speed on it. But then Fromm to me as a great deep ball touch. It might only go up to a max of 55 yards, but hey, I'll take it. Just look at Brees. And then there is definitely the differences with how Jacoby/Fromm stand and maneuver in the pocket. Just trying to understand why I see the comparisons of the two?

Yeah, this comparison is a bit weird to me because in certain respects they are so very different and even polar opposites, but at the same time when you take the overall package they end up in a very similar place when it comes to the type of role they would play("game manager") but for different reasons.

 

Jacoby is a big, strong QB with strong arm while Fromm's arm is below average and he's not the strongest QB

Jacoby has trouble with progression reads and anticipation while Fromm is one of the better processors of the game and has very good anticipation.

Jacoby has trouble putting touch on the ball while Fromm has trouble throwing it on a rope

Jacoby has the ability to make spectacular plays out of structure(but almost never does it because his eyes drop when he leaves the pocket) while Fromm keeps his eyes downfield but doesn't' really move much in or out of the pocket.

Jacoby has improved pocket presence and has the ability to navigate the pocket and shed tacklers, while Fromm is very statuesque and has poor pocket presence. 

 

When you sum it all up Jacoby ends up being very limited as a QB because he keeps the ball a lot because of his inability to quickly read the field and isolate and anticipate the throws he needs to make and ends up settling for a lot of short dump offs or safe throws.

 

When you sum it all up Fromm ends up being somewhat limited as a QB because his lack of pocket awareness and lack of arm strength end up robbing him of the opportunity to make big time throws consistently enough, thus big part of his offense comes on short to intermediate throws. 

 

I think Fromm can be better than Jacoby and if he fixes his pocket presence and awareness(this BTW is something Jacoby seems to have gotten better at) he can even end up being one of those high end game managers in the league (the Kirk Cousins/Jimmy Garoppolo types), this is why even though I'm not Fromm's biggest fan and I usually would aim for higher upside players, I think I will be OK if we drafted him in the second round. (The very very high end of course are Brees and Brady, but they both possess something I don't see Fromm ever getting - incredible feel for the pocket and creating throwing windows by the slightest of movements within the pocket)

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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, this comparison is a bit weird to me because in certain respects they are so very different and even polar opposites, but at the same time when you take the overall package they end up in a very similar place when it comes to the type of role they would play("game manager") but for different reasons.

 

Jacoby is a big, strong QB with strong arm while Fromm's arm is below average and he's not the strongest QB

Jacoby has trouble with progression reads and anticipation while Fromm is one of the better processors of the game and has very good anticipation.

Jacoby has trouble putting touch on the ball while Fromm has trouble throwing it on a rope

Jacoby has the ability to make spectacular plays out of structure(but almost never does it because his eyes drop when he leaves the pocket) while Fromm keeps his eyes downfield but doesn't' really move much in or out of the pocket.

Jacoby has improved pocket presence and has the ability to navigate the pocket and shed tacklers, while Fromm is very statuesque and has poor pocket presence. 

 

When you sum it all up Jacoby ends up being very limited as a QB because he keeps the ball a lot because of his inability to quickly read the field and isolate and anticipate the throws he needs to make and ends up settling for a lot of short dump offs or safe throws.

 

When you sum it all up Fromm ends up being somewhat limited as a QB because his lack of pocket awareness and lack of arm strength end up robbing him of the opportunity to make big time throws consistently enough, thus big part of his offense comes on short to intermediate throws. 

 

I think Fromm can be better than Jacoby and if he fixes his pocket presence and awareness(this BTW is something Jacoby seems to have gotten better at) he can even end up being one of those high end game managers in the league (the Kirk Cousins/Jimmy Garoppolo types), this is why even though I'm not Fromm's biggest fan and I usually would aim for higher upside players, I think I will be OK if we drafted him in the second round. 

 

I'm not doubting you by any means (I've read you and other's perspectives so much on this forum), but when people say a QB lacks the arm strength but that QB can hit a receiver down the field 55 yards over the shoulder, how much strength is needed? Now I do totally agree, that he (Fromm) appears to not be able to throw a pass on a rope, so to speak.

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I keep going back to the rumor the colts really like Eason. Maybe the colts aren’t really interested in any of the top guys. I would take Eason over Fromm because I think he has a higher ceiling and more play making ability.  He just has to learn to handle pressure better. But I still would rather try hard to get Herbert or Love before either of them.

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31 minutes ago, harrisoncolts88 said:

 

I'm not doubting you by any means (I've read you and other's perspectives so much on this forum), but when people say a QB lacks the arm strength but that QB can hit a receiver down the field 55 yards over the shoulder, how much strength is needed? Now I do totally agree, that he (Fromm) appears to not be able to throw a pass on a rope, so to speak.

It's not just ability to throw 55 yards. Probably all QBs in the league can do it in a clean pocket with set feet and perfect platform. The question is can you put some arc on it and let it drop in a bucket in order to allow the receiver time  to run under it? Can you put pace on it when required? Can you throw a lazer on a rope type of throw 30 yards? Now can you do any of this with a messy pocket and less than ideal platform and not set feet? Now can you do it on the move escaping the pocket? What about throwing it across your body on the move? And so on and so forth... It's not just about can you throw it 50 yards... It's about adding layers of difficulty and adding different situations in which some QBs will be able to make a specific throw and others wouldn't... From what I've watched Fromm requires nearly perfect conditions to make some throws and some others I haven't seen him make at all...

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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

It's not just ability to throw 55 yards. Probably all QBs in the league can do it in a clean pocket with set feet and perfect platform. The question is can you put some arc on it and let it drop in a bucket in order to allow the receiver time  to run under it? Can you throw a lazer on a rope type of throw 30 yards? Now can you do any of this with a messy pocket and less than ideal platform and not set feet? Now can you do it on the move escaping the pocket? What about throwing it across your body on the move? And so on and so forth... It's not just about can you throw it 50 yards... It's about adding layers of difficulty and adding different situations in which some QBs will be able to make a specific throw and others wouldn't... From what I've watched Fromm requires nearly perfect conditions to make some throws and some others I haven't seen him make...

 

Nice! Yea with a clean pocket, I've seen him definitely be able to hit a receiver 50+ yards down the field and drop it in a bucket. And as we stated before, he definitely does not have a rifle arm and I'm not sure I've paid attention to see if he can throw across his body on the move. I have definitely seen him be able to make passes on the move towards his throwing arm. As well as be able to throw down the field while taking a shot from a defender. I'm more of a logical person, so I like to go with what my eyes see and try to figure out what it is that makes people like certain QBs in this draft. As I stated in my intro thread, I really think this is an interesting and pivotal time in the next Colts era. So its fun watching some like QBs that have flaws or point out flaws, but then the very QBs that the do like, have some of the same tendencies or other flaws that they disregard. I'll definitely be asking more questions on the other QBs as I go through them.

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5 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

No point in reaching on Love in 1st round. Hes turnover prone reminds me of a slightly better Winston. See if hes there at 44 and if not take Gordon. I think Gordon does everything Love does but better, and has the quickest release of all QBs in the class. Get Brown or Kinclaw with 1st pick or best Olineman available.

He was 32 TDs to 6 INTs before he changed schemes, coaches, and 9.5 of his 2018 starters.

Was that just a mirage? It's a tale of two seasons, and it was obvious what he could do when put in the right position. I like Gordon too, but to act like Love should be discounted given all the changes he had to deal with is a little head scratching.

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

I keep going back to the rumor the colts really like Eason. Maybe the colts aren’t really interested in any of the top guys. I would take Eason over Fromm because I think he has a higher ceiling and more play making ability.  He just has to learn to handle pressure better. But I still would rather try hard to get Herbert or Love before either of them.

Can you post some of the information about the rumor about Eason. 

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2 minutes ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

Can you post some of the information about the rumor about Eason. 

It was a few weeks ago. It was on a colts Facebook page. The person said they were targeting Eason at 13 but felt he might be available a few picks later. The person that posted it was pretty much defending himself from people saying he was making up crap. Apparently this person knew leanard was a target in 2018. I think if he was just making stuff up he wouldn’t of defended himself in comments.

 

A couple things though. Colts have not talked to Eason yet I would guess. He may also be the target because they think the other 4 will be gone. I don’t read to much into it yet but the poster did defend himself when people accused him of making it up.

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

It was a few weeks ago. It was on a colts Facebook page. The person said they were targeting Eason at 13 but felt he might be available a few picks later. The person that posted it was pretty much defending himself from people saying he was making up crap. Apparently this person knew leanard was a target in 2018. I think if he was just making stuff up he wouldn’t of defended himself in comments.

 

A couple things though. Colts have not talked to Eason yet I would guess. He may also be the target because they think the other 4 will be gone. I don’t read to much into it yet but the poster did defend himself when people accused him of making it up.

 

Taking Eason at #13 would be very, very questionable. Talk about taking a risk.

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1 minute ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

 

Taking Eason at #13 would be very, very questionable. Yeah

He might be a guy they could move back into the first to get or 34.  But yeah at 13 that sounds questionable. I don’t see how they could like him more then Love or Herbert unless they just think those two will be gone. At this point I think it’s way to early to know.

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So I was reading  that Fromm had a better season in 2018 then this year so I went back and watched a video. He does look really good. He clearly goes through progressions and has a very quick release. There is some deep balls in this video too. He has a few things like toughness and leadership including smarts down pat. I believe I read he finished at Georgia as the most accurate in school history. Plus he competed against very good competition. Looks like he processes things really quick. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

 

That’s probably my draft dream. Get somebody like Kinlaw or Epenesa and getting Jordan in the early 2nd. Or even trading up into the 1st to get him.

There is a great discussion on qb on his draft podcast. Mentioning Fromm had some of the same issues  love with injuries around him. Seems josh Allen has same issues the year he was drafted.  Going to be a interesting draft.

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