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Jacoby Brissett Impressions (Perma Merge)

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7 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

You do know Andrew Luck retired two weeks before the season? How do you think JB got this job? There's not a long list of options here. Last year the offense/passing game was pretty good. This year it's not . What's the common denominator? It's not a few more play action calls here or there.

 

But what's the reason we're not using more play action?

 

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I completely disagree with those saying he doesn't compare to Tannehill.  How easy we forget that the Colts have not been blown out by anyone this year.  Also remember that he had the colts at 5-2 before he injured his knee.  He was also sitting at 15-3 touchdown to interception ratio.  Finally, some of the games that we did lose you can't blame on him.  Chargers and Raiders.  That was AV.

 

Just saying he was showing Franchise levels before he got hurt.

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8 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

watson is a top five qb and they have elite receivers, we are not in their class on paper but we can still beat them sometimes

when the hell did watson become a top 5 QB lol

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9 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

watson is a top five qb and they have elite receivers, we are not in their class on paper but we can still beat them sometimes

yeah colts play them tough head to head and get a lot of wins in that match up

 

i just think they will end up with better records at the end of the year.  watson and hopkins are a good formula for winning a lot of games, colts are relying on huge games from our running backs and they are not that durable 

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13 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

1 - You do know Andrew Luck retired two weeks before the season? How do you think JB got this job? There's not a long list of options here. Last year the offense/passing game was pretty good. This year it's not . What's the common denominator? It's not a few more play action calls here or there.

 

2 - And take the points, please, especially against the Texans as that's who was on the receiving end of his worst move as a coach, giving them the win as opposed to taking a tie last year. You take the tie against a division opponent, if the alternative is a loss. Not hard.

 

No one thought JB was going to replace Luck production.   What is obvious now is that JB isn't making a good case to be the future starter of this team.  Reich hasn't shown to be able to use him well or Reich knows he cannot play well enough.  

 

They could still have taken the points.   Nearly every other team would have taken a shot at the endzone.  With Reich and Brissett, it wasn't even an option.  

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

But what's the reason we're not using more play action?

 

If I had to guess, honestly, it's probably got something to do with JB's rhythm as a passer. Frank has seen more of this in person at practice than we have. I'd assume there's a reason we're a run first team. I'm fine with mixing some more of PA in, but the end result is going to look a lot like what we get, simply calling pass plays. Dumps offs to RB's, little crossing routes from WR's, TE's over the middle. Schematically it's not really buying a different set of options, that's what I've surmised. I could be wrong about the details though (don't tell anyone I said that).

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1 hour ago, MPStack said:


He’s the QB, because Luck retired. 
 

All of a sudden there’s franchise or elite QB categories? Well, if that’s the case, Brissett is neither. 
 

 

 

I don't disagree

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We lose to LAC because Vinny can't find the are BETWEEN the uprights. JB doesn't finish or play in losses to Pitts and Miami. We have three crucial dropped passes, a blown route and one terrible blown coverage against Houston. But hey JB is a crappy QB with a 6-5 record, one game out of first in the division. Vinny makes a PAT after and JB plays against Pitts and Miami and we are 8-3 even with the dropped passes. But let's get rid of him and go on a never ending QB hunt. That's the ticket to NFL greatness<sarc>.

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2 hours ago, coltsva said:

Completetly disagree on Eli.

 

He has played 15 seasons, but has only made the playoffs 5 times, has only won a playoff game in two seasons, only scored more than 24 points in a playoff game once, overall record as a starter is 116-116. That is a far cry from elite.

I think we're going to disagree on this one.

 

If the overall win/loss record is knock against him doesn't that make the 2 Super Bowl wins even better? He is clearly good enough to QB a Super Bowl team - he has 2 rings - so its hard for me to believe hes also the reason they didn't win more games/Super Bowls. 

 

He has 2 Super Bowl MVP awards.

He has 2 Super Bowl wins.

Hes ranked 8th in passing yards.

Hes ranked 8th in passing TDs.

 

Show me anyone in NFL history that has anywhere near that resume that isnt elite. 

 

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Just now, FRW said:

We lose to LAC because Vinny can't find the are BETWEEN the uprights. JB doesn't finish or play in losses to Pitts and Miami. We have three crucial dropped passes, a blown route and one terrible blown coverage against Houston. But hey JB is a crappy QB with a 6-5 record, one game out of first in the division. Vinny makes a PAT after and JB plays against Pitts and Miami and we are 8-3 even with the dropped passes. But let's get rid of him and go on a never ending QB hunt. That's the ticket to NFL greatness<sarc>.

 

At some point, people are going to realize that the discussion about the Colts QB isn't about the win/loss record.

 

Just now, Mitch Connors said:

Show me anyone in NFL history that has anywhere near that resume that isnt elite. 

 

 

Eli Manning.

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As long as the wins comes everyone is happy.

When we lose it all of a sudden becomes the QBs fault. 

Well the QB is not why we have losses this season. 

3 losses directly can be blamed on Vinny.

The other losses can be blamed on injuries and a seriously conservative offence being called by Frank. 

We were never really beat in any of these games. We beat ourselves. 

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3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

As long as the wins comes everyone is happy.

When we lose it all of a sudden becomes the QBs fault. 

Well the QB is not why we have losses this season. 

3 losses directly can be blamed on Vinny.

The other losses can be blamed on injuries and a seriously conservative offence being called by Frank. 

We were never really beat in any of these games. We beat ourselves. 

 

At some point, people are going to realize that the discussion about the Colts QB isn't about the win/loss record.

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21 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

I think we're going to disagree on this one.

 

If the overall win/loss record is knock against him doesn't that make the 2 Super Bowl wins even better? He is clearly good enough to QB a Super Bowl team - he has 2 rings - so its hard for me to believe hes also the reason they didn't win more games/Super Bowls. 

 

He has 2 Super Bowl MVP awards.

He has 2 Super Bowl wins.

Hes ranked 8th in passing yards.

Hes ranked 8th in passing TDs.

 

Show me anyone in NFL history that has anywhere near that resume that isnt elite. 

 

Terry Bradshaw has four and isn't  elite.  Eli is not an elite qb. He is slightly above Flacco's  level.

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I'm just waiting  to see how this year finishes out and then we will see what ballard does.

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18 minutes ago, The Fish said:

If I had to guess, honestly, it's probably got something to do with JB's rhythm as a passer. Frank has seen more of this in person at practice than we have. I'd assume there's a reason we're a run first team. I'm fine with mixing some more of PA in, but the end result is going to look a lot like what we get, simply calling pass plays. Dumps offs to RB's, little crossing routes from WR's, TE's over the middle. Schematically it's not really buying a different set of options, that's what I've surmised. I could be wrong about the details though (don't tell anyone I said that).

 

The bolded is somewhat true. While JB's completion % goes up nearly 8 points when using play action, his yards/play only goes up 0.5 yards. Passer rating goes up also, but it's not like he's going downfield off of play action.

 

That's not the only reason I want to see more play action -- and specifically, better use of play action. It opens up opportunities, not just deep opportunities. It slows down the pass rush. 

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51 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

They were winning games, but his passing ability wasn't materially different. 

 

We're in information gathering mode, some back and forth is natural. He's got time to flip the script again, but he really needs some pass catchers healthy- that's really not getting enough consideration. JB ain't Dan Marino, but I don't think he's quite as helpless as he looked last week either.

 

That was my point.  He wasn't playing great but they were winning so everyone seemed happy with him.  

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30 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

I think we're going to disagree on this one.

 

If the overall win/loss record is knock against him doesn't that make the 2 Super Bowl wins even better? He is clearly good enough to QB a Super Bowl team - he has 2 rings - so its hard for me to believe hes also the reason they didn't win more games/Super Bowls. 

 

He has 2 Super Bowl MVP awards.

He has 2 Super Bowl wins.

Hes ranked 8th in passing yards.

Hes ranked 8th in passing TDs.

 

Show me anyone in NFL history that has anywhere near that resume that isnt elite. 

 

Eli is one of the more compelling arguments for HOF or no HOF, and Elite or not Elite. While I'm on the "no" side, I certainly can see both sides of this debate.

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

Eli isn't close to elite.   He has a .500 career record.  

I was going to make a point, and this defines it for me. 

 

Yes, Jacoby Brissett is a franchise QB(FQB) . Some balk at that label because they feel that JB will not take the Colts where they hope to go. Many fans are quite unrealistic about the availability of elite QB's. It is a common condition for fans of those teams that have had elite QB for years....or decades. 

 

The definition of a FQB should be, "a QB good enough to build your team around for the long run". Take a look around the league. How many titles or trips to the playoffs have the Panthers had? Are folks saying that Cam hasn't been considered a FQB? Of course he has. There are plenty of examples. The Cowboys are about to dump a *ton of money at Dak Prescott. Do you all consider him an elite QB? Some mentioned Cousins. Cousins has had a pretty descent length of time to get his career underway. And, I would like for Colt fans see him navigate what JB has done under the same circumstances, and see the results. 

 

I am not arguing that any fan should feel JB is a QB that will take them where they want the Colts to go. But, The sheer low number of Elite QBs available infers quite plainly....you can build a team and be ready for the right QB should that rare opportunity present itself, or you can reach desperately to appease fans. Let's say the team did use their draft capitol to move up in the draft to get a QB...and it failed. the team would be set back a long ways....for a long time. There would be serious longing for the team we do have right now in a short period of time. This board would be a cesspool of depression and complaining. 

 

If the Colts hadn't been hit as hard as they have been with injuries....especially to skill players, this conversation would likely sound a bit different. 

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36 minutes ago, FRW said:

We lose to LAC because Vinny can't find the are BETWEEN the uprights. JB doesn't finish or play in losses to Pitts and Miami. We have three crucial dropped passes, a blown route and one terrible blown coverage against Houston. But hey JB is a crappy QB with a 6-5 record, one game out of first in the division. Vinny makes a PAT after and JB plays against Pitts and Miami and we are 8-3 even with the dropped passes. But let's get rid of him and go on a never ending QB hunt. That's the ticket to NFL greatness<sarc>.

 

I love this and find this very true. 

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4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

At some point, people are going to realize that the discussion about the Colts QB isn't about the win/loss record.

A few of us have been having the Colts QB conversation for a while now regardless of the scores and all we were being met with was "but the record is 5-2, but all that matters is the win, but we won so he was good enough". I remember the times(like a month-two ago) when people were trying to compare Brissett to Luck and wouldn't listen to some of us trying to tell them this is not a comparison JB is going to win in the long-term and that comparison is doing JB a disservice. Now the same people are complaining that we are spoiled by Luck and we would have never given JB a chance. 

 

Oh well... our GM just took a 1500 miles flight to watch Utah state vs Boise State in person. Third for him this season. GMs don't usually go to such completely random games in the middle of November for nothing. GMs don't end up at 3 Utah freaking State games by accident. 

 

I really really wish Love would declare this year, because next year we won't be able to draft a player with that type of skillset as late as we will most likely be drafting. I've heard some rumors that he might do a graduate transfer to Oklahoma. Pffff, can you imagine Love in that offense, with that offensive line, with those weapons... with that coach? I am usually against giving promises to any player simply because you don't know what kind of opportunities you are missing if you give a promise to a player and feel like you need to honor it, but this is kind of an exception - first it's a QB, second it's a QB whose option of returning to college is legitimate, third might be worth it. Just tell him we will draft him with our own pick and at least make him think about it. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Four2itus said:

I was going to make a point, and this defines it for me. 

 

Yes, Jacoby Brissett is a franchise QB(FQB) . Some balk at that label because they feel that JB will not take the Colts where they hope to go. Many fans are quite unrealistic about the availability of elite QB's. It is a common condition for fans of those teams that have had elite QB for years....or decades. 

 

The definition of a FQB should be, "a QB good enough to build your team around for the long run". Take a look around the league. How many titles or trips to the playoffs have the Panthers had? Are folks saying that Cam hasn't been considered a FQB? Of course he has. There are plenty of examples. The Cowboys are about to dump a *ton of money at Dak Prescott. Do you all consider him an elite QB? Some mentioned Cousins. Cousins has had a pretty descent length of time to get his career underway. And, I would like for Colt fans see him navigate what JB has done under the same circumstances, and see the results. 

 

I am not arguing that any fan should feel JB is a QB that will take them where they want the Colts to go. But, The sheer low number of Elite QBs available infers quite plainly....you can build a team and be ready for the right QB should that rare opportunity present itself, or you can reach desperately to appease fans. Let's say the team did use their draft capitol to move up in the draft to get a QB...and it failed. the team would be set back a long ways....for a long time. There would be serious longing for the team we do have right now in a short period of time. This board would be a cesspool of depression and complaining. 

 

If the Colts hadn't been hit as hard as they have been with injuries....especially to skill players, this conversation would likely sound a bit different. 

 

Your argument seems to be 'it's hard to find elite QBs, so that makes JB a franchise QB.' 

 

Am I missing something?

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22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

At some point, people are going to realize that the discussion about the Colts QB isn't about the win/loss record.

Sadly, for most fans, that IS the only discussing point. I understand what you are saying, but your path, or at least the one I understand you are wanting, takes the kind of patience that most are unable to give. I fee like the way this team is being built, does require a strong QB presence. I need to see the rest of this year, and maybe some more, before I see the team changing horses. 

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15 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I'm just waiting  to see how this year finishes out and then we will see what ballard does.

 

there is a very real chance that Jacoby is the QB next year.  i hope they find better but its hard to say where the qbs will go in the draft.  there are going to be some big names hitting free agency too, but it doesnt seem like we are going after Rivers or Brees

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Your argument seems to be 'it's hard to find elite QBs, so that makes JB a franchise QB.' 

 

Am I missing something?

Not at all. I am looking at numbers. Two sets of numbers. One set is the small percentage of QB's available to satisfy fans, and the other is the length of time fans are willing to wait to once again acquire an elite QB. Those numbers for me, define that JB is a franchise QB, while the team continues to build around him. Time will define the length of time he will be under center for this team. Now is not the time to be knee jerking the QB position. 

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6 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Sadly, for most fans, that IS the only discussing point. I understand what you are saying, but your path, or at least the one I understand you are wanting, takes the kind of patience that most are unable to give. I fee like the way this team is being built, does require a strong QB presence. I need to see the rest of this year, and maybe some more, before I see the team changing horses. 

I don't mind Brissett getting the rest of the season. But I kind of wish Reich would actually challenge him rather than try to protect him. If we are trying to learn whether he's a franchise QB or not, why not give him the chance to show you if he is one or not? Stop calling all those runs on 1st and 2nd and long. let Brissett throw the ball... call some more play action or RPO sets if it helps. Give him the chance to actually succeed or fail as a QB rather than as a glorified rack handing the ball over to the back. 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

At some point, people are going to realize that the discussion about the Colts QB isn't about the win/loss record.

I fit right in with this.   When the team was winning, I could accept the limitations of Jacoby and thought going forward the team could be successful despite him.   He's efficient and isn't going to lose many games for you as long as the defense, running game and special teams are performing well.   

Now that some of these close games are losses (3 of the last 4), I'm not sure the future looks bright with a QB that is limited by his own talent and Reichs trust in him.  

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14 minutes ago, Myles said:

I fit right in with this.   When the team was winning, I could accept the limitations of Jacoby and thought going forward the team could be successful despite him.   He's efficient and isn't going to lose many games for you as long as the defense, running game and special teams are performing well.   

Now that some of these close games are losses (3 of the last 4), I'm not sure the future looks bright with a QB that is limited by his own talent and Reichs trust in him.  

I didn't think he was good when we were winning. I see him as a product of a weak schedule and overachieving thanks to the talent around him.

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Early on when we had a good record and JB looked good throwing to wide open receivers on crossing routes there were people who actually said he was better than Luck for this team. Some also said they were glad Luck retired. That was silly back then. Even more silly now. 

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1 minute ago, Calmack said:

Early on when we had a good record and JB looked good throwing to wide open receivers on crossing routes there were people who actually said he was better than Luck for this team. Some also said they were glad Luck retired. That was silly back then. Even more silly now. 

remember when some said he should be considered for MVP?? hahaha

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

At some point, people are going to realize that the discussion about the Colts QB isn't about the win/loss record.

 

 

Eli Manning.

 

I recognize the levity but arent you a big advocate of statistics? 

 

He's an elite passer statistically (look at yards/tds per year played vs others). 

He's elite from a Super Bowl wins perspective (how many QBs have more than 1).

 

You're relying on the good old fashioned eye-test to tell me the above 2 things dont matter?

 

Edit-grammar

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23 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Not at all. I am looking at numbers. Two sets of numbers. One set is the small percentage of QB's available to satisfy fans, and the other is the length of time fans are willing to wait to once again acquire an elite QB. Those numbers for me, define that JB is a franchise QB, while the team continues to build around him. Time will define the length of time he will be under center for this team. Now is not the time to be knee jerking the QB position. 

 

I definitely disagree, and I'm struggling to understand your rationale and your criteria.

 

To me, a franchise QB can carry the offense most games, he can make plays when there are breakdowns in protection, he can make changes pre-snap and improvise post-snap, and he has few if any limitations as a passer (by the way, that doesn't mean he can throw the ball 70 yards from his knees, it means that he can throw a complete route tree and can handle a pro playbook). 

 

An elite QB basically guarantees you 10 wins, with or without a good supporting cast. With an elite QB, you're generally winning your division, and if you have a decent defense and running game, you're probably winning playoff games. And personally, I generally don't promote QBs to "elite" status until they've shown the ability to maintain this level of performance over a reasonable period of time. Mahomes is an exception to this rule.

 

That's a cliff notes version of my rationale and criteria. But even an expanded version would not include a discussion of the satisfaction level or the patience level of the fan base. Those are entirely subjective and vary wildly from team to team. 

 

It sounds like you're saying that you're willing to wait and see if JB is actually capable of being a franchise QB. That's fair and reasonable. But it's very different from saying that because you're willing to wait and see, that means JB qualifies as a franchise QB. I can't wrap my mind around that. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

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6 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

He's an elite passer statistically (look at yards/tds per year played vs others). 

He's elite from a Super Bowl wins perspective (how many QBs have more than 1).

 

I'll start with the second. To me, winning SBs doesn't make a QB elite. In pretty much every case, going to the SB means the team around the QB is pretty good, and the outcome of one game doesn't change a QB's status in my mind. I understand that others feel differently, but this is very strongly held opinion of mine.

 

To the first, what makes Eli elite statistically? What bar is he surpassing to be in that category?

 

(As an aside, I do think Eli will be a HOFer, mostly because he has 2 SBs over the dynasty Patriots, but also because he was a pretty good QB for a long time, and has a strong standing on the all time stats sheets. That doesn't make him an elite QB, though.)

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4 hours ago, richard pallo said:

I think your analysis is spot on.  You can win a SB with a franchise QB especially if you have a strong defense and a decent running game.  We have had two elites recently and won only one SB.  Both drafted after terrible seasons with the 1st pick.  Pretty hard to find an elite QB.

Can I just say that we got insanely lucky as it is to get 2 generational QB talents in a row.

 

Franchise QB is what you hope for.  Generational QB are the stuff of dreams and legends.   We struck gold twice in a row and only brought it home once.  Clearly you need more than even a generational QB to win the Superbowl

 

2/3 of the franchises in the NFL have at one point or another in the last 5 years wished fervently for a QB that could at least stabilize the position for them.  We have that in Brissett. 

 

If you want to chase rainbows and moonbeams trying to pick up a third generational talent in 1 generation, more power to ya, but don't think it's some kind of Colt birthright just because we got lucky twice in our lifetimes

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Fair enough, I submit.

 

Ill curl up under my Eli Manning bed sheets tonight knowing Im the only one who thinks hes elite. Correction, me, Archie and Olivia.

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15 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

2/3 of the franchises in the NFL have at one point or another in the last 5 years wished fervently for a QB that could at least stabilize the position for them. 

 

I think there's a wide gap between this description and "franchise QB." 

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think there's a wide gap between this description and "franchise QB." 


Yeah franchise isn’t the same as say “viable starter”. A lot of it is semantics, but at his current level of play Brissett isn’t the guy I want to bank on going forward. 
 

Great backup, possibly a passable starter, not a franchise guy.

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31 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'll start with the second. To me, winning SBs doesn't make a QB elite. In pretty much every case, going to the SB means the team around the QB is pretty good, and the outcome of one game doesn't change a QB's status in my mind. I understand that others feel differently, but this is very strongly held opinion of mine.

 

To the first, what makes Eli elite statistically? What bar is he surpassing to be in that category?

 

(As an aside, I do think Eli will be a HOFer, mostly because he has 2 SBs over the dynasty Patriots, but also because he was a pretty good QB for a long time, and has a strong standing on the all time stats sheets. That doesn't make him an elite QB, though.)

Add to this that he hasn't once been considered a top 5 QB in the league.   Maybe not top 10.  How can you be elite and the 12th best QB in the league.  Wouldn't that make 12 elite QB's at some point.   

 

I'm hearing more and more talk of Rivers not being the Chargers QB after this year.   Mostly talk radio, so take it for what it is worth.   What if the Colts could bring him in for a year or 2?   The O-line is great.  The defense is pretty good.  The team may be primed to win now.  

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54 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I didn't think he was good when we were winning. I see him as a product of a weak schedule and overachieving thanks to the talent around him.

I thought he might be good enough.   Mostly because I thought we would see improvement with him and see Reich open up the offense a bit.   None of that has happened.   

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    • Looks like they are now undergoing a review of the Redskins name.  A change seems likely due to the pressure from Fedex, NFL and public at large. They were the Boston Braves before they came to D.C.  So maybe just call them the Washington Braves or Washington Warriors if “Braves” is still deemed to be too insensitive.  FWIW, the Cleveland Indians are also considering a name change.  
    • I wouldn’t bet too much.   Our regular season starts in September, by that time MLB will have - in theory - been playing for about 5 weeks.   Roughly the same as basketball.   If those two leagues are forced to shutdown, the NFL won’t wait for trouble to happen.  The NFL will quickly join them and shutdown as well.     We will all know more in August. 
    • NE got a bargain in Cam, more so than what we have in JB, something is wrong with this picture.  "1" Mil compare to 20 mil.  Yikes.
    • the virus could be around for many years, maybe forever.  they are going to figure out how to play around it and start the season.  if it gets bad they will shut it down but there will be games played, id bet on that   
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