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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

No, it seems like the official measurement is actually 6035, which means 6'3 5/8" ... so close to 6'4"

Ok.  So the tweet should have said 6.4.

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Ok.  So the tweet should have said 6.4.

Yeah, I don't know why it came at 6'3 by the draft network. I guess the measurement at the combine will confirm. Either way... 6'3 or 6'4" it doesn't matter much. Both are pretty standard QB size nowadays. 

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3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, I don't know why it came at 6'3 by the draft network. I guess the measurement at the combine will confirm. Either way... 6'3 or 6'4" it doesn't matter much. Both are pretty standard QB size nowadays. 

Yeah, but there is a big difference between 6.4 3/8s and 6.2 5/8s if the 6.3 was accurate.  That's why I was comparing the listed height of 6.4 to the 6.3 tweet.

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25 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

But CD, despite having a good OL, how many times have you seen our guys not be open the first 3 seconds that even Luck had to hold the ball and find a way to throw them open by extending the play? Based on that, we might need a QB who, like Brissett, can make plays outside the pocket more often that we'd like to admit, with a ceiling that Brissett does not bring to the table.

 

Sure, a vet wide out like TY can bring a young QB and other pass catchers along but it boils down to if Gordon can be an alpha and demand the amount of work ethic that Peyton demanded over years to get several pass catchers on the same page as him before the timing offense becames a well oiled machine. The truth is, we have to be honest about our pass catchers' ability to get open quickly while evaluating what kind of QB we might need, don't you think?

 

The only thing I am afraid with Gordon is we might have a Chad Pennington that plays the QB position well and is very accurate, who still was successful in the NFL but might not be a high ceiling guy. 

Those are all valid points.  And it's one reason why I'm not 100% certain that Gordon is the best fit for the Colts.

 

But then I look at Nick Foles in the SB with the eagles and the Read/Pass option.  If that is the type of O that Reich/Siranni want to run, I see Gordon being able to do that extremely well in the NFL.

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3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, but there is a big difference between 6.4 3/8s and 6.2 5/8s if the 6.3 was accurate.  That's why I was comparing the listed height of 6.4 to the 6.3 tweet.

I'm not sure it matters though... Mahomes is like... 6'2" ... it really doesn't matter unless you can see it on tape. For example, you can see it with Wilson who sometimes misses throws in the middle of the field on some of his drop backs because of his height, but he has other ways to compensate for it(moving and creating himself other throwing windows). 

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7 minutes ago, stitches said:

I'm not sure it matters though... Mahomes is like... 6'2" ... it really doesn't matter unless you can see it on tape. 

It doesn't matter if the plan is to have the QB scramble to open space, even when faced with only a 3 man TEN rush.  It does matter when you have a #6 pick at LG for the purpose of protecting the pocket QB.

 

We made that investment, now use it.

 

Drafting a QB for his scrambling ability takes away the advantage of having a great oline, IMO.

 

Its a good fit for KC.  Not so good for us, IMO.  

 

Herbert and Eason and Fromm are more pocket types.  Not that Love isn't, but escapability doesn't really matter for us, as JBs lack of mobility really didn't hurt us much last season, IMO.

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18 minutes ago, DougDew said:

No kidding.  People around here really like Gordon but also really hate Jake Fromm.  LOL.

 

Fromm > Gordon

The reason people like Gordon is simple. First the fanbase has never had to guess at QB. Our last two long term QB’s were 1st overall picks and consensus top QBs. So since we aren’t in position to draft that guy, no one wants to take a QB in the first.

 

Add on top of that the fact that most people don’t scout, they just look at box scores to evaluate. So Love in his final season had a mediocre stat line while Gordon had a superb one. So fobs lot of fans that makes him more of a sure thing.

 

Add that all up and what the fanbase wants is a 2nd round or later QB with who is low risk but super high reward. That QB doesn’t exist but people have manufactured that QB and his name is Anthony Gordon. Gordon is the manifestation of a fanbase who was spoiled with 2 decades worth of elite QB play from blue chip prospects, but is now suddenly in the position that others teams have been in where they have to “find” their QB of the future. That uncertainty frightens people more than they care to admit so this is why people want to take the passive approach.
 

It’s easy to laugh at the Paxton Lynch, Blake Bortles, and Blaine Gabbert’s of the world when your franchise never has to be in that position. Now the shoe is on the other foot. But people would rather try an shoot the wings off a flea and find the next Dak Prescott in the later rounds than throw some darts at the dart board and find the next DeShaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes.

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4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

It doesn't matter if the plan is to have the QB scramble to open space even when faced with ponly a 3 man TEN rush.  It does matter when you have a #6 pick at LG for the purpose of protecting the pocket QB.

 

We made that investment, now use it.

 

Drafting a QB for his scrambling ability takes away the advantage of having a great oline, IMO.

 

Its a good fit for KC.  Not so good for us, IMO.  

 

Herbert and Eason and Fromm are more pocket types.  Not that Love isn't, but escapability doesn't really matter for us, as JBs lack of mobility really didn't hurt us much last season, IMO.

Fair enough. Although IMO the halmark of the greatest QBs nowadays is that they can make plays both in structure(in the pocket) and out of structure(leaving the pocket).

 

For whatever it's worth - Love is the best out of the rest(Burrow not included) in stepping into the pocket and making throws. I love his pocket presence and feel. He has much better feel for it than Herbert or Eason or Fromm. Eason and Fromm are actually not that good with it even though they are pocket passers... they just rely on the pocket to be perfectly clean. In the NFL even with our OLine you cannot rely on that. You will have to navigate it and avoid rushers through subtle movements, through stepping into the pocket and into pockets of space within the pocket. Love IMO is the best at it from anyone not named Burrow in this draft. 

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7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

It doesn't matter if the plan is to have the QB scramble to open space, even when faced with only a 3 man TEN rush.  It does matter when you have a #6 pick at LG for the purpose of protecting the pocket QB. We made that investment, now use it.

 

Drafting a QB for his scrambling ability takes away the advantage of having a great oline, IMO.

 

Its a good fit for KC.  Not so good for us, IMO.  Herbert and Eason and Fromm are more pocket types.  Not that Love isn't, but escapability doesn't really matter for us, as JBs lack of mobility really didn't hurt us much last season, IMO.

 

I disagree. Blocking for a scrambling QB takes a lot more persistent effort by trying to minimize holding, letting go, re-engaging, and so on from an O-line than blocking for a QB that gets rid of the ball under 3 seconds. Your comment suggests that the OL has no bearing on giving the QB the time to scramble and keeping their head on a swivel while he does, that is completely untrue.

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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Fair enough. Although IMO the halmark of the greatest QBs nowadays is that they can make plays both in structure(in the pocket) and out of structure(leaving the pocket).

 

For whatever it's worth - Love is the best out of the rest(Burrow not included) in stepping into the pocket and making throws. I love his pocket presence and feel. He has much better feel for it than Herbert or Eason or Fromm. Eason and Fromm are actually not that good with it even though they are pocket passers... they just rely on the pocket to be perfectly clean. In the NFL even with our OLine you cannot rely on that. 

If true, then we should trade Nelson for picks needed to be able to draft Love and Kinlaw in the first round.  If we have Love, then we would be farther along by having a stud 3T than an all pro LG.  JMO.

 

Look at KC.  Mahomes/ Chris Jones.  Who are their Gs?

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5 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The reason people like Gordon is simple. First the fanbase has never had to guess at QB. Our last two long term QB’s were 1st overall picks and consensus top QBs. So since we aren’t in position to draft that guy, no one wants to take a QB in the first.

 

Add on top of that the fact that most people don’t scout, they just look at box scores to evaluate. So Love in his final season had a mediocre stat line while Gordon had a superb one. So fobs lot of fans that makes him more of a sure thing.

 

Add that all up and what the fanbase wants is a 2nd round or later QB with who is low risk but super high reward. That QB doesn’t exist but people have manufactured that QB and his name is Anthony Gordon. Gordon is the manifestation of a fanbase who was spoiled with 2 decades worth of elite QB play from blue chip prospects, but is now suddenly in the position that others teams have been in where they have to “find” their QB of the future. That uncertainty frightens people more than they care to admit so this is why people want to take the passive approach.
 

It’s easy to laugh at the Paxton Lynch, Blake Bortles, and Blaine Gabbert’s of the world when your franchise never has to be in that position. Now the shoe is on the other foot. But people would rather try an shoot the wings off a flea and find the next Dak Prescott in the later rounds than throw some darts at the dart board and find the next DeShaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes.

This post right here needs to be pinned on top of every draft discussion until after the draft. Most expect QB's to just grow on trees and think a DT is more valuable to a team than a franchise QB.

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

If true, then we should trade Nelson for picks needed to be able to draft Love and Kinlaw in the first round.  If we have Love, then we would be farther along by having a stud 3T than an all pro LG.  JMO.

 

Look at KC.  Mahomes/ Chris Jones.  Who are their Gs?

 

Huh? Why? Having a monster G like Quenton is what actually allows you the opportunity to step into the pocket. BTW I am inclined to agree with you about the value of a RG vs 3T especially for our defensive system, but you cannot guarantee Kinlaw will be similar value player to Quenton. Now if you gave me the chance to trade Quenton for Donald I'd do it right away. 

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Just now, DougDew said:

If true, then we should trade Nelson for picks needed to be able to draft Love and Kinlaw in the first round.  If we have Love, then we would be farther along by having a stud 3T than an all pro LG.  JMO.

 

Look at KC.  Mahomes/ Chris Jones.  Who are their Gs?

What has gotten you so bitter today? You started out by arguing over less than an inch! We aren't even talking about dipsticks over here! Throwing behind a line it really doesn't matter much between 6 foot and 6'4 it all depends on the release of the football. That's why you saw luck have so many batted down passes versus Drew Brees. 

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13 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I disagree. Blocking for a scrambling QB takes a lot more persistent effort by trying to minimize holding, letting go, re-engaging, and so on from an O-line than blocking for a QB that gets rid of the ball under 3 seconds. Your comment suggests that the OL has no bearing on giving the QB the time to scramble and keeping their head on a swivel while he does, that is completely untrue.

I'm doing what everybody else is doing these days.  Using Mahomes as the standard bearer.  Mahomes chose to scramble even against a 3 man TEN pass rush.  In which case, the quality of those 5 players againt only 3 was pretty moot.

 

We don't need Nelson if we had Mahomes.  KC is proof of that.

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm doing what everybody else is doing these days.  Using Mahomes as the standard bearer.  Mahomes chose to scramble even against a 3 man TEN pass rush.  In which case, the quality of those 5 players againt only 3 was pretty moot.

 

We don't need Nelson if we had Mahomes.  KC is proof of that.

Andrew Wylie is a  very good Guard for them, like top 10 in the league good. They did struggle when he was out of the line up. I will take a player who elevates 4 other guys around him over one guy every day of the week. 

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

 

Just a big ole smoke screen, if they took any other player beside Burrow then it would be an even bigger mistake then keeping Marvin Lewis for all those years.

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Just now, twfish said:

What has gotten you so bitter today? You started out by arguing over less than an inch! We aren't even talking about dipsticks over here! Throwing behind a line it really doesn't matter much between 6 foot and 6'4 it all depends on the release of the football. That's why you saw luck have so many batted down passes versus Drew Brees. 

Its the idea of trying to see which college Qb is going to be the next Mahomes, when there is more to it than scrambling out of the pocket.  Archie Manning and Fran Tarkenton were both better than Mahomes, given the eras, and it didn't lead to a lot.  Also, using Fromm's stat line last year to knock him down while ignoring Love's high interceptions to keep the praise, because we think Love can be the next Mahomes.  Not that I'm a Fromm fan. 

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13 minutes ago, twfish said:

Andrew Wylie is a  very good Guard for them, like top 10 in the league good. They did struggle when he was out of the line up. I will take a player who elevates 4 other guys around him over one guy every day of the week. 


This goes back to him still unhappy about the Q pick. It’s all about him and no one else, when the ultimate truth comes out, affects his lens for opinions over the years.

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29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm doing what everybody else is doing these days.  Using Mahomes as the standard bearer.  Mahomes chose to scramble even against a 3 man TEN pass rush.  In which case, the quality of those 5 players againt only 3 was pretty moot.

 

We don't need Nelson if we had Mahomes.  KC is proof of that.


Yep, 1 game where he’s not blitzed is proof enough for a drafting philosophy, got it!!  :thmup:

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22 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Drafting a QB for his scrambling ability takes away the advantage of having a great oline, IMO.

 

 

the ravens have a good line and it made a difference for lamar jackson.  they have an 8 time pro bowl guard

 

Lamar isnt exactly a typical scrambling qb either though. not many qbs run off the guard and up the middle but he does.  a good RT is probably more important for most scramblers   

 

 

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its the idea of trying to see which college Qb is going to be the next Mahomes, when there is more to it than scrambling out of the pocket.  Archie Manning and Fran Tarkenton were both better than Mahomes, given the eras, and it didn't lead to a lot.  Also, using Fromm's stat line last year to knock him down while ignoring Love's high interceptions to keep the praise, because we think Love can be the next Mahomes.  Not that I'm a Fromm fan. 

I really don't think you have watched a lot of tape, I also think you have downplayed escapeability. Jacoby does have decent mobility although not what lucks was. There are times when a pass rush is going to beat an O-line. Even the greatest offensive linemen get beat, and then when you get blitzed heavily there are only so many blockers available and you need someone who can escape pressure when it comes. We aren't banging on the table for a Lamar Jackson or Mike Vick type but there is value to keeping a play alive when pressure is coming. How many games did Luck win us by being able to run outside the pocket buying enough time for a WR to get open and score a TD. Heck Manning utilized it during his roll out passes that where pretty dang successful. Mahomes is not a scramble first QB and his yards and TD's obviously prove that, but when you can use your feet as a weapon and add another dimension to your game it makes it that much harder to stop you. But how about you give Mahomes more credit? Led the league in passing in his first season as a starter taking them to the AFC championship game and now he's taking them to the super bowl. There is a very strong possibility we are currently watching one of the greatest QB's of this coming decade evolve.

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23 minutes ago, twfish said:

Just a big ole smoke screen, if they took any other player beside Burrow then it would be an even bigger mistake then keeping Marvin Lewis for all those years.

They have the first pick. Why would they need a smoke screen?

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41 minutes ago, twfish said:

This post right here needs to be pinned on top of every draft discussion until after the draft. Most expect QB's to just grow on trees and think a DT is more valuable to a team than a franchise QB.

If you’re down by 14 in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes left, Javon Kinlaw isn’t going to win you the game.

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

They have the first pick. Why would they need a smoke screen?

It's the same thing with Arizona last year, The browns the year before that. Why? Maybe to cause doubt in the draft to see if they can trade down and get the same player. Havent you watched draft day with Kevin Costner? lol

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16 minutes ago, chad72 said:


Yep, 1 game where he’s not blitzed is proof enough for a drafting philosophy, got it!!  :thmup:

To me the situation is frustratingly obvious. 

 

If we want Mahomes, then we will have to choose to pay either Nelson or a Chris Jones...not both.  And if we have Mahomes, deciding which one of the two to pay is obvious, yet probably unacceptable to many.

 

If we are set on paying Nelson, then we should probably dial back the idea of finding the next Mahomes and build the team differently.

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2 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

If you’re down by 14 in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes left, Javon Kinlaw isn’t going to win you the game.

 

Hmm...comebacks do not happen just because a team keeps doing onside kicks and keeps the ball, you know. Defenses give QB margins for error and keep their teams alive in games. Yes, you need the QB to finish the job but a sack or turnover generated by the DL can flip field position well if you have play makers that can get your QB the ball back.

 

Eli Manning 2007 and 2011, his comebacks do not happen if his D did not keep the score within striking distance for his 4th qtr. plays. Tom Brady, his 2014 comeback, down 10 in the 4th qtr. does not happen if his D does not force 3 and outs vs Russell Wilson.

 

Let us not diminish the value of playmakers on D just because the QB touches the ball every snap.

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

To me the situation is frustratingly obvious. 

 

If we want Mahomes, then we will have to choose to pay either Nelson or a Chris Jones...not both.  And if we have Mahomes, deciding which one of the two to pay is obvious, yet probably unacceptable to many.

 

If we are set on paying Nelson, then we should probably dial back the idea of finding the next Mahomes

We could pay both though.. your looking at probably less than 40 mill a year for the two

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10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

To me the situation is frustratingly obvious. 

 

If we want Mahomes, then we will have to choose to pay either Nelson or a Chris Jones...not both.  And if we have Mahomes, deciding which one of the two to pay is obvious, yet probably unacceptable to many.

 

If we are set on paying Nelson, then we should probably dial back the idea of finding the next Mahomes and build the team differently.

 

It is not obvious, neither does it make sense, sorry.

 

If your good OL can give your QB a comfortable 3 seconds, and he can gain another 2 or 3 seconds scrambling that is not guaranteed, the odds of the passing offense succeeding goes up, the more time a QB gains. Saying I will settle for 3 seconds as good enough is ignorant, if you have the occasional athletic QB play that will buy you time. So, if the baseline time given by the OL goes up with good OL players, an offense will take it 100% of the time. The baseline time is the only thing guaranteed, the scrambling is not guaranteed to succeed, even if it is Mahomes. So you take the certain time, and add the upside to it.

 

I can't see why you cannot see it, probably because you are blind or you see only what you want to see.

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

 

 

Herbert is one of the smartest guys in this draft. 

 

"Two-time Academic All-America first-team honoree and the reigning Google Cloud Academic All-America Team Member of the Year. He's twice been named to the Pac-12 All-Academic first team." 

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6 minutes ago, stitches said:

Herbert is one of the smartest guys in this draft. 

 

"Two-time Academic All-America first-team honoree and the reigning Google Cloud Academic All-America Team Member of the Year. He's twice been named to the Pac-12 All-Academic first team." 

 

Tom Telesco, that learned from Bill Polian, will be all over this guy. It'd be a miracle if he lasts past the Chargers. 

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