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Ideal QB Situation

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19 minutes ago, MPStack said:


I bet the Titans disagree. 

 

Tannehill isn’t 43 years old either or on the downside of his career. He is still in his prime.

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5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Tannehill isn’t 43 years old either or on the downside of his career. He is still in his prime.


Is every veteran QB 43? C’mon

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5 hours ago, The Fish said:

someone in the know needs to make that case that his knee injury is why he couldn't hit the broad side of the barn for half of a season. It's really the only variable that constitutes as an explanation for his bad accuracy that might improve, beyond him simply becoming something he hasn't been yet.

Personally I think he caught a case of the yips, maybe from AV. But I also think it's possible he can get over it. I trust FR to evaluate the situation and act accordingly. We'll see!

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20 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Getting a vet on a short term deal does nothing to advance our future and get where we need to be. Look at the future of the AFC and young QB. It’s time to start the future.

 

Burrow

Mahomes

watson

maybe Herbert in LA

Miami  maybe TUA

I don't understand your intent here Chloe.  Do you want us to draft a QB and start him immediately?   I figure we draft a QB and have him sit behind a vet (Rivers is my choice) for 1-2 years.   That would be better than sitting behind Brissett.  

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10 hours ago, Myles said:

I don't understand your intent here Chloe.  Do you want us to draft a QB and start him immediately?   I figure we draft a QB and have him sit behind a vet (Rivers is my choice) for 1-2 years.   That would be better than sitting behind Brissett.  

I am a little perplexed in regards to Rivers.   It might happen.  But. WHY would someone That’s 38 move his big family to get a one year deal and be a bridge. We aren’t on the way to a SB with Rivers as the final piece.  I bet he retires.   He also had his worst year. He isn’t at the high level he was 3-5 years ago.  He looks to be sliding fast.     He also had an excellent receiving Corp.    he will have MUCH less WR tools in Indy.  I guess I would rather give CK a swing. Or.  Since we have paid a chunk of the money just let JB come out and play until a rookie is ready

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2 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

I am a little perplexed in regards to Rivers.   It might happen.  But. WHY would someone That’s 38 move his big family to get a one year deal and be a bridge. We aren’t on the way to a SB with Rivers as the final piece.  I bet he retires.   He also had his worst year. He isn’t at the high level he was 3-5 years ago.  He looks to be sliding fast.     He also had an excellent receiving Corp.    he will have MUCH less WR tools in Indy.  I guess I would rather give CK a swing. Or.  Since we have paid a chunk of the money just let JB come out and play until a rookie is ready

Im only in favor of Rivers because he had his best season under Reich.  Rivers had the 3rd least amount of time to throw and the Colts provided the second most.  I dont think he would make the Colts favorites, but he would win more than Brissett.  He could also help Hines.

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On 1/10/2020 at 12:01 PM, MikeCurtis said:

Great points and I like option 2 as well, only because I think as QB# 4, Love will go before we pick

 

There are 4 teams in need of a QB in front of us.......  I cant see Cincy, Miami, Carolina or LAC passing on a QB.... it just lines up

 

In drills and actions at the combine, I am sure Love will do very well

 

After supporting JB initially, I see a career backup at best.

 

To me,....... you need a backup that you are developing to be a future starter, or someone you can trade for picks later 

 

 

As far as Carolina goes, their best bet is to keep Cam if he's healthy. $21 million is not a big number for a 30 year old Quarterback when you have guys like Kirk Cousins making almost $30 million. That being said, I don't see them drafting a Quarterback in the 1st round. If they draft a Quarterback it would be in the later rounds. 

 

 

Lets say Cinci drafts Burrow, Miami drafts Tua, and the Chargers draft Herbert. That leaves Love, Fromm, and Eason as the BQA. Best Quarterbacks available. There are no teams after 13 that need a Quarterback so its more likely Love falls to the 2nd round. DT Kinlaw, QB Love, and WR Tyler Johnson are my ideal first 3 picks. 

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40 minutes ago, DownHillRunner said:

 

 

As far as Carolina goes, their best bet is to keep Cam if he's healthy. $21 million is not a big number for a 30 year old Quarterback when you have guys like Kirk Cousins making almost $30 million. That being said, I don't see them drafting a Quarterback in the 1st round. If they draft a Quarterback it would be in the later rounds. 

 

 

Lets say Cinci drafts Burrow, Miami drafts Tua, and the Chargers draft Herbert. That leaves Love, Fromm, and Eason as the BQA. Best Quarterbacks available. There are no teams after 13 that need a Quarterback so its more likely Love falls to the 2nd round. DT Kinlaw, QB Love, and WR Tyler Johnson are my ideal first 3 picks. 

I would think teams may try to jump in late in the 1st to grab one late in the 1st.  The 5th yr option for 1st rounders is pretty big when developing a QB i think.  Also teams will be staring at the remaining QBs all night when the 1st ends.  I could see someone leapfrogging our early 2nd thinking we may take a QB.

  Things could get really interesting after the combine and senior bowl, etc.

  I've also heard rumors from Dolphin fans that Herbert may be the one they want.

  Buckle up.

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This whole topic has been derailed with several personal shots. Locking. 

 

You know the rules people, follow them please. 

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This thread has been cleaned up and I'm reopening.

 

For the record, any thread about the colts qb is not fair game for bashing and complaining.  It isn't.  Please read and respond to the OP.

 

  1. if you only want to complain and vent, please use this thread for that

In addition, if you feel someone is derailing the thread please report it or at a minimum, ignore it.  But DO NOT derail the thread further with your complaints about complaining. And don't start taking personal shots at people because you disagree with them

 

That's just as much of a problem.

 

We aim to provide a place for everyone to say what they want to say but, there is a structure to discussions and we ask that you respect each other. If the topic is not for you, choose another.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, DownHillRunner said:

 

 

As far as Carolina goes, their best bet is to keep Cam if he's healthy. $21 million is not a big number for a 30 year old Quarterback when you have guys like Kirk Cousins making almost $30 million. That being said, I don't see them drafting a Quarterback in the 1st round. If they draft a Quarterback it would be in the later rounds. 

 

 

Lets say Cinci drafts Burrow, Miami drafts Tua, and the Chargers draft Herbert. That leaves Love, Fromm, and Eason as the BQA. Best Quarterbacks available. There are no teams after 13 that need a Quarterback so its more likely Love falls to the 2nd round. DT Kinlaw, QB Love, and WR Tyler Johnson are my ideal first 3 picks. 

IMHO

 

NE and NO are prime candidates to take a QB like Love if he is still on the board

 

I don’t think he lasts until round 2

 

There are 101 ways that the Colts could go with their first 4 picks

 

I just hope we address some needs like 3T, OT, WR, QB

 

We need MUCH better play at QB and DT

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13 hours ago, Myles said:

Im only in favor of Rivers because he had his best season under Reich.  Rivers had the 3rd least amount of time to throw and the Colts provided the second most.  I dont think he would make the Colts favorites, but he would win more than Brissett.  He could also help Hines.

I mis-remembered.

The Chargers had the 5th least time to throw and the Colts had the 2nd most time to throw.

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i dont think Love will be there in the second round.  teams like to trade up to the bottom of the first to take QBs, Lamar jackson is a good recent example.  the 5th round option is worth a lot of money when it comes to franchise QBS

 

there is nothing ideal about our situation now, maybe love is a reach at 13.  i think its more important to find a QB than it is to worry about taking a little bit of a reach in the draft

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23 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

i dont think Love will be there in the second round.  teams like to trade up to the bottom of the first to take QBs, Lamar jackson is a good recent example.  the 5th round option is worth a lot of money when it comes to franchise QBS

 

there is nothing ideal about our situation now, maybe love is a reach at 13.  i think its more important to find a QB than it is to worry about taking a little bit of a reach in the draft

To me Love has to blow away all the upcoming testing for the Colts to do any trading up, or even take him at 13

 

IMHO


Tier 1

Burrows, Tua 

 

Tier 2

Love, Eason, Herbert (Herbert is probably safest)

 

Tier 3

Fromm,  Others

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Myles said:

I mis-remembered.

The Chargers had the 5th least time to throw and the Colts had the 2nd most time to throw.

I think it’s a 15 yard penalty if you quote yourself.  
 

just kidding


Where did you get this stat?
 

You have to think even an average QB would look awesome with a ton of time to throw

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https://lastwordonsports.com/2017/04/15/chad-kelly-2017-nfl-draft-profile/

 

I know nothing of Chad Kelly other than seeing   him in preseason and he performed admirably against 3rd stringers.  I have attached his draft profile for curiosity.  He had tons of baggage but when u dig deeper, there is a lot to like bout his physical tools and his aggressive personality.  The Colts have paid him a lot to keep him on the roster.  When u look at his draft profile, minus the off field stuff, he actually probably grades better than a lot of guys coming out.  Do u think the Colts view him as a long term solution?  Do u know u think they kept him on the roster for the whole year to see if he could keep his nose clean? Everyone envisions a trade, but what if he is the guy? Just a thought.  I just don't know if a lot of the guys coming out have more to offer than Kelly physically and we will have to give up a lot of draft capital to get a qb who has had no NFL experience.  The Colts have been around Kelly for a year and mayb their plan is to give him the reigns next year. 

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29 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

https://lastwordonsports.com/2017/04/15/chad-kelly-2017-nfl-draft-profile/

 

I know nothing of Chad Kelly other than seeing   him in preseason and he performed admirably against 3rd stringers.  I have attached his draft profile for curiosity.  He had tons of baggage but when u dig deeper, there is a lot to like bout his physical tools and his aggressive personality.  The Colts have paid him a lot to keep him on the roster.  When u look at his draft profile, minus the off field stuff, he actually probably grades better than a lot of guys coming out.  Do u think the Colts view him as a long term solution?  Do u know u think they kept him on the roster for the whole year to see if he could keep his nose clean? Everyone envisions a trade, but what if he is the guy? Just a thought.  I just don't know if a lot of the guys coming out have more to offer than Kelly physically and we will have to give up a lot of draft capital to get a qb who has had no NFL experience.  The Colts have been around Kelly for a year and mayb their plan is to give him the reigns next year. 

Actually...... I think having Kelly gives us more options

 

If the coaching staff had came across any further doubt or bad behavior on the guy.....

he would be cut already

 

To me..... he is a talent that could compete for a backup spot....

Or..... if he REALLY did well in camp.......  let him start

 

I STILL want to bring in a drafted QB.... but IMHO....  You dont have to reach, or give away huge draft capitol for a Tier 1 QB 

 

Bring me Gordon or Eason in round 2, pick 2

 

Let them compete

 

If they BOTH stink..... try again in 2021

 

Pick up our DIRE need for Trench (3T and OT)

 

Trade Back in the end of two to get a WR

 

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1 minute ago, MikeCurtis said:

Actually...... I think having Kelly gives us more options

 

If the coaching staff had came across any further doubt or bad behavior on the guy.....

he would be cut already

 

To me..... he is a talent that could compete for a backup spot....

Or..... if he REALLY did well in camp.......  let him start

 

I STILL want to bring in a drafted QB.... but IMHO....  You dont have to reach, or give away huge draft capitol for a Tier 1 QB 

 

Bring me Gordon or Eason in round 2, pick 2

 

Let them compete

 

If they BOTH stink..... try again in 2021

 

Pick up our DIRE need for Trench (3T and OT)

 

I do not want to try again in 2021 and waste another year.  Ballard has all of the ammo he needs to get his guy this year.   He has money and high picks.  It could be FA, trade or draft.  It doesn't matter.  If there is one or two he has his eyes on then he should do what's necessary to fill the teams most important position.  He might not have similar resources at his disposal next year.  None of us are getting any younger including Mr. Irsay.   This is the year to get it done IMO.  It should be priority number 1. 

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23 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I do not want to try again in 2021 and waste another year.  Ballard has all of the ammo he needs to get his guy this year.   He has money and high picks.  It could be FA, trade or draft.  It doesn't matter.  If there is one or two he has his eyes on then he should do what's necessary to fill the teams most important position.  He might not have similar resources at his disposal next year.  None of us are getting any younger including Mr. Irsay.   This is the year to get it done IMO.  It should be priority number 1. 

I get this

 

But..... who is the LOCK QB that you see available at 13?

 

Burrow is really the ONLY QB that doesnt have as much risk.....  Cincy is NOT going to part ways with that pick

 

What if you trade down to 4 and get Tua...... and you find out, that the ankles (both had surgery)

AND the HIP surgery make him unable to play for 2 years 

 

Tua ISNT the answer for 2020....  (I am a HUGE Tua fan)

 

Tua IS a risk.

 

Are you going to tell me that Herbert is a lock to take this team anywhere in 2020?

 

We will have to trade PAST LAC to get him.  Remember, that they have a better first round pick to offer to move up.

 

Are you going to tell me Love is a lock to take this team anywhere in 2020?

 

We MAY have to trade past Carolina to get him.

 

I believe Eason and Gordon will be available with our second pick and are good potential players.... The gap between Eason and Love isnt huge.

 

The ONLY.... WIN NOW guy that I see, (IF they are considering trading him) is Derek Carr

 

Which I support 100%

 

So to summarize

 

Tua is a RISK

Herbert is a RISK

Love is a RISK

Eason is a RISK

Gordon is a RISK

 

Which risk do you want to play with?

 

I would like to take a smaller risk and take Gordon and Eason who both MIGHT end up to be better than average pro QBs

 

AND.... we get our TWO needed Trench folks

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

I get this

 

But..... who is the LOCK QB that you see available at 13?

 

Burrow is really the ONLY QB that doesnt have as much risk.....  Cincy is NOT going to part ways with that pick

 

What if you trade down to 4 and get Tua...... and you find out, that the ankles (both had surgery)

AND the HIP surgery make him unable to play for 2 years 

 

Tua ISNT the answer for 2020....  (I am a HUGE Tua fan)

 

Tua IS a risk.

 

Are you going to tell me that Herbert is a lock to take this team anywhere in 2020?

 

We will have to trade PAST LAC to get him.  Remember, that they have a better first round pick to offer to move up.

 

Are you going to tell me Love is a lock to take this team anywhere in 2020?

 

We MAY have to trade past Carolina to get him.

 

I believe Eason and Gordon will be available with our second pick and are good potential players.... The gap between Eason and Love isnt huge.

 

The ONLY.... WIN NOW guy that I see, (IF they are considering trading him) is Derek Carr

 

Which I support 100%

 

So to summarize

 

Tua is a RISK

Herbert is a RISK

Love is a RISK

Eason is a RISK

Gordon is a RISK

 

Which risk do you want to play with?

 

I would like to take a smaller risk and take Gordon and Eason who both MIGHT end up to be better than average pro QBs

 

AND.... we get our TWO needed Trench folks

 

 

 

This is going to to be the situation every year unless we have a top 3-5 pick; that's just the nature of the beast.  We are going to have to do the research, take a risk, and choose one (even if that means pay to move up) or we are going to be stuck in mediocrity forever.

 

I would be open to considering Carr, but other than wild rumors that is likely a pipe dream ... and even if it were real it would still be a risk.

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

I get this

 

But..... who is the LOCK QB that you see available at 13?

 

Burrow is really the ONLY QB that doesnt have as much risk.....  Cincy is NOT going to part ways with that pick

 

What if you trade down to 4 and get Tua...... and you find out, that the ankles (both had surgery)

AND the HIP surgery make him unable to play for 2 years 

 

Tua ISNT the answer for 2020....  (I am a HUGE Tua fan)

 

Tua IS a risk.

 

Are you going to tell me that Herbert is a lock to take this team anywhere in 2020?

 

We will have to trade PAST LAC to get him.  Remember, that they have a better first round pick to offer to move up.

 

Are you going to tell me Love is a lock to take this team anywhere in 2020?

 

We MAY have to trade past Carolina to get him.

 

I believe Eason and Gordon will be available with our second pick and are good potential players.... The gap between Eason and Love isnt huge.

 

The ONLY.... WIN NOW guy that I see, (IF they are considering trading him) is Derek Carr

 

Which I support 100%

 

So to summarize

 

Tua is a RISK

Herbert is a RISK

Love is a RISK

Eason is a RISK

Gordon is a RISK

 

Which risk do you want to play with?

 

I would like to take a smaller risk and take Gordon and Eason who both MIGHT end up to be better than average pro QBs

 

AND.... we get our TWO needed Trench folks

 

 

There is no lock at 13.  None of them are locks really.  It's Ballards job to find the right guy.  This is the year he has the where with all to go and get him.  Just like the Giants did last year with their QB.  Next year I suspect we won't have the resources to make a move up.  Trading for Carr would be my first choice but that also has risk and most likely won't happen.  So I'm hoping we decide on the guy Ballard wants and if we have to move up so be it.  Go for it and don't look back.  If it's one of the top three or four I'm hoping he doesn't just sit there and hope he falls to us at 13.  Too risky IMO.  If we have to move up this is the year to do it.  

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13 hours ago, esmort said:

 

This is going to to be the situation every year unless we have a top 3-5 pick; that's just the nature of the beast.  We are going to have to do the research, take a risk, and choose one (even if that means pay to move up) or we are going to be stuck in mediocrity forever.

 

I would be open to considering Carr, but other than wild rumors that is likely a pipe dream ... and even if it were real it would still be a risk.

 

Yep, to add to this...

 

EVERY pick is a RISK. No pick is 100% certain hit! Pretty much every position in the draft has similar hit/bust rates in the middle of the 1st. 

 

Whoever DT you get at 13 is about the same RISK as the QB you get because you like him. 


Whoever CB you get at 13 is about the same RISK as the QB you get because you like him.

 

Whoever WR you get at 13 is about the same RISK as the QB you get because you like him. 

 

Also... there is a RISK and a RISK. Saying Herbert is a risk and then saying Gordon is a risk doesn't mean the same thing. 

 

I feel like people want to go the cheap route... like... you can just pick whoever in the 3d-4tg and he has the same chance of being good QB as the 1st rounders, because you don't have a Luck in the draft. This is NOT the case. The risk of the 1st rounders is MUCH lower than the risk of lower ranked QBs. There is a reason they are lower ranked. It's not because they are as good/safe of prospects as the early pick QBs. 

 

We have too good of a team to be aiming at the best of the best generational types. We will not get top 3 pick(generational type QB) until we bottom out and I don't see this with this roster unless something horrible happens with injuries. We need to evaluate and target talented passers that are not complete QBs, but they have high level of talent/traits that can be developed and coached into being the engine of a highly efficient offense. 

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2 hours ago, stitches said:

 

Yep, to add to this...

 

EVERY pick is a RISK. No pick is 100% certain hit! Pretty much every position in the draft has similar hit/bust rates in the middle of the 1st. 

 

Whoever DT you get at 13 is about the same RISK as the QB you get because you like him. 


Whoever CB you get at 13 is about the same RISK as the QB you get because you like him.

 

Whoever WR you get at 13 is about the same RISK as the QB you get because you like him. 

 

Also... there is a RISK and a RISK. Saying Herbert is a risk and then saying Gordon is a risk doesn't mean the same thing. 

 

I feel like people want to go the cheap route... like... you can just pick whoever in the 3d-4tg and he has the same chance of being good QB as the 1st rounders, because you don't have a Luck in the draft. This is NOT the case. The risk of the 1st rounders is MUCH lower than the risk of lower ranked QBs. There is a reason they are lower ranked. It's not because they are as good/safe of prospects as the early pick QBs. 

 

We have too good of a team to be aiming at the best of the best generational types. We will not get top 3 pick(generational type QB) until we bottom out and I don't see this with this roster unless something horrible happens with injuries. We need to evaluate and target talented passers that are not complete QBs, but they have high level of talent/traits that can be developed and coached into being the engine of a highly efficient offense. 

 

Here is my issue with the current regime, I do not think they are prone to taking risks. If they were, they would have sat AV earlier than later in the season, sat Brissett and played Kelly to see what they got in a real game situation etc.

 

If I had to place my bets on it, I'd say best defensive player at No.13 and a QB at No.34 is what I am expecting from Ballard, to be honest.

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41 minutes ago, chad72 said:

If I had to place my bets on it, I'd say best defensive player at No.13 and a QB at No.34 is what I am expecting from Ballard, to be honest.

I agree with this.  I think it provides them with a playmaker at 13 and a potential upgrade at 34.  I think they really like JB and would love to see him succeed.  I think drafting a QB at 34 puts pressure on him to improve or he will not be back, as long as the QB shows improvement and progress.  Also, if the QB at 34 is a dud, you did not waste draft capital on him and still got a playmaker early.

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IMHO, Burrow and Tua are the class of the draft and no other QBs deserve to be taken at 13.

 

So my idea scenerio would be to sign Rivers for one or two years, use the 13th pick to get a receiver or DT, and then get a guy like Gordon or Fromm in the 2nd or 3rd if they last that long.  Would put us into position and win and I like their upside. I think Gordon could be really good but he needs some time.  I have stated I would avoid Love at all costs.

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On 1/16/2020 at 8:40 PM, DownHillRunner said:

There are no teams after 13 that need a Quarterback

the patriots do even if they bring brady back another year, plus teams like trading to the bottom of the first to get QBs

 

the 5th year option is worth a lot of money for franchise QBs

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Not that I want him here, but (especially since people list Josh Rosen as a possibility?)- what about 27 yr old/ 6’5”, 236 lbs Blake Bortles?  He’s a FA, and better reading progressions than Jacoby.  ESPN called him the perfect backup in the Rams system last year.  Is that all he’ll ever be, or would he flourish in Reich’s system? (He certainly played well AGAINST our old Colts Defenses! And he would have a running game to take pressure off him.)

 

I know, he was a turnover machine in Jax.  Hopefully, better with experience with the Rams?  I just mention him because he’s never on anyone’s list of options, and some weirder (Alex Smith, Jamieus Winston, etc) ones are mentioned...

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40 minutes ago, jimmy g said:

Not that I want him here, but (especially since people list Josh Rosen as a possibility?)- what about 27 yr old/ 6’5”, 236 lbs Blake Bortles?  He’s a FA, and better reading progressions than Jacoby.  ESPN called him the perfect backup in the Rams system last year.  Is that all he’ll ever be, or would he flourish in Reich’s system? (He certainly played well AGAINST our old Colts Defenses! And he would have a running game to take pressure off him.)

 

I know, he was a turnover machine in Jax.  Hopefully, better with experience with the Rams?  I just mention him because he’s never on anyone’s list of options, and some weirder (Alex Smith, Jamieus Winston, etc) ones are mentioned...

I commend you on having the guts to suggest bringing Bortles to the Colts.   

It wouldn't excite me.   His career numbers (albeit with JAX) are not good at all.  As bad as Brissetts.  Odd that ESPN claimed him to be the perfect backup in the Rams system.  He only threw 2 passes, completing 1 for 3 yards.   

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12 hours ago, Myles said:

I commend you on having the guts to suggest bringing Bortles to the Colts.   

It wouldn't excite me.   His career numbers (albeit with JAX) are not good at all.  As bad as Brissetts.  Odd that ESPN claimed him to be the perfect backup in the Rams system.  He only threw 2 passes, completing 1 for 3 yards.   

I didn’t suggest bringing him here. My post said so. I just wondered why there are numerous others mentioned that are worse or older or less experienced than he....

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    • Pagano himself disagrees with your post.       Pagano sucked at in game adjustments, motivation and game planning. I wouldn't say he is the worst coach ever but he provided minimal value to the team, although Grigson significantly hampered his ceiling with this team.
    • Yea, no way to predict injuries... with a healthy Funchess, Campbell, and Fountain to compliment TY, that group hypothetically should be pretty solid.   I thought Campbell really showed strides in improving his game throughout the season, though it was unfortunate that every time he showed glimpses of what he may become, he would get re-injured.  And Funchess from pre-season and the little bit we saw of him in game 1 looked to have pretty solid chemistry with Brissett.   From a recent interview, it sounds like Ballard wants Funchess back.  If we can't sign him before the draft, I expect we'll get a big-bodied guy there.  I tend to think we're going to draft one either way.   Jacoby's play definitely declined after week 6 last year (he had 14 of his 18 TDs in the first 6 games).  Obviously, he was a step back from Luck.  However, I still can't pinpoint his decline over the season.  Was it a) he had a lack of targets due to all our injuries? b) Jacoby's knee injury taking some zip off his throws? c) teams figuring out how to game plan against him, or d) Jacoby just not being all that good of a QB?    My guess is, all 4 factored into that... I certainly think he would've been a little better without the injuries and with a better WR corps, but can't say how much.  That said, I don't think the lack of talent at WR last year was due to CB not trying to build that position group anywhere near as much as it was due to unexpected injuries.
    • Give the raiders some pass rush help   Raiders select K'lavon Chaisson   Jags are up
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