Ballard’s eye for talent.

[runthepost]

Remember Ballard interview Rhule for a head coaching position before we got Frank? The move was called questionable, well Rhule just got 70 million as a coach.

Also Leonard was the worst pick in the 2018 draft  ( I had to add that draft review in from bleacher report)

[Thunderbolt]

His missed quite  a few targets.

[MPStack]

Slow down

[lollygagger8]

[Myles]

7 hours ago, Thunderbolt said:

His missed quite  a few targets.

There is not a GM in NFL history who hasn't.

 

 

[RollerColt]

[runthepost]

12 minutes ago, Myles said:

There is not a GM in NFL history who hasn't.

 

 

Even the great Bill had a few misses

[ThorstenDenmark]

Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Malik Hooker, Marlon Mack that's his best hits over the last three drafts, then there have been a lot of picks that are questionable and busts.

 

But overall, he's done a great job.

 

Not his fault Luck bailed on us.

[Nesjan3]

He has also failed to do a lot of things, but its the offseason, lets enjoy the playoffs

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, ThorstenDenmark said:

Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Malik Hooker, Marlon Mack that's his best hits over the last three drafts, then there have been a lot of picks that are questionable and busts.

 

But overall, he's done a great job.

 

Not his fault Luck bailed on us.

I would add Smith, Rock, Orekee, Willis to that lists as well. hes has two drafts for his style of system that have produced good results. Sure, you’re not gonna hit on every pick but in 3 total drafts, he has found 8 above average starters and about half of those have been studs, two of those have been all pro in their first two years. So yeah, I agree, he’s done a great job. 

[Nickster]

6 hours ago, runthepost said:

Even the great Bill had a few misses

 

The Sanu trade appears to be ridiculous.

[Imgrandojji]

14 hours ago, Thunderbolt said:

His missed quite  a few targets.

It's the draft.  The next GM with a 1.000 batting average in the draft will be the very first.

 

Ballard took a team that Grigson had run into the ground, and in the first year made the playoffs, and in the second year was on track before the team got derailed by a mix of injury, regression of key players (Vinateiri) and their inexperience getting exposed.

 

We were supposed to be in a 3 year rebuild after 17.  Ballard managed to turn the team around in a year and if Luck hadn't pulled the rug out from under him and Vinateiri hadn't fallen off a cliff we'd have probably done it again.

 

This franchise is in a much, much stronger position than 7-9 makes it look like.

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, Thunderbolt said:

His missed quite  a few targets.

 

EVERYONE has missed a few targets.

 

E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E!!      

 

The only people who think scouting is easy are fans who sit at home and watch videos and then province who is good and who is not.

 

Otherwise,  those who do this for a living know how hard it is.

 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, ThorstenDenmark said:

Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Malik Hooker, Marlon Mack that's his best hits over the last three drafts, then there have been a lot of picks that are questionable and busts.

 

But overall, he's done a great job.

 

Not his fault Luck bailed on us.

 

Feel free to name them.

 

By the way,  good drafs are measured by if you can get three starters out of the draft,  it's a good draft.

 

17                             18                         19

----                            -----                       ----

Hooker                  Nelson                Rock

Mack                     Leonard              Ben

Walker                  Smith                   Parris

Stewart                 Turay                   Okereke

Wilson                  Hines                   Willis

                               Wilkens               Tell

                               Adams                 Speed

                               Franklin

 

That's a fair amount of talented starters and contributors for the misses you're about to tell me about.     But go ahead....

 

[Colts1324]

41 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

The Sanu trade appears to be ridiculous.

Gonna really hurt them if they get their 1st round pick taken away. Won't have a 1st or 2nd round pick this upcoming draft.

[ClaytonColt]

36 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Feel free to name them.

 

By the way,  good drafs are measured by if you can get three starters out of the draft,  it's a good draft.

 

17                             18                         19

----                            -----                       ----

Hooker                  Nelson                Rock

Mack                     Leonard              Ben

Walker                  Smith                   Parris

Stewart                 Turay                   Okereke

Wilson                  Hines                   Willis

                               Wilkens               Tell

                               Adams                 Speed

                               Franklin

 

That's a fair amount of talented starters and contributors for the misses you're about to tell me about.     But go ahead....

 

Apart from Leonard and Nelson isn't that basically just a long list of JAGs at this point? 

[runthepost]

10 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

Apart from Leonard and Nelson isn't that basically just a long list of JAGs at this point? 

Mack? Willis? Okereke? Rock aren’t JAGs. Willis, Rock, and Okereke had really good rookie years as they were on the pff all rookie team

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, ClaytonColt said:

Apart from Leonard and Nelson isn't that basically just a long list of JAGs at this point? 

 

Wow. 
 

Holy Cow. 
 

The answer is no.   I’ll leave it to someone else to explain.

 

Jags?     Oh, Dear God.....

 

[ClaytonColt]

2 hours ago, runthepost said:

Mack? Willis? Okereke? Rock aren’t JAGs. Willis, Rock, and Okereke had really good rookie years as they were on the pff all rookie team

Mack, maybe, although he is running behind one of the best lines in football.

 

As for the others it's a small sample size comparing then to just their own year group. In terms if the NFL as a whole there surely just slap bang in the middle of the road at best? 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

10 hours ago, Myles said:

There is not a GM in NFL history who hasn't.

 

 

but most do not fill the roster with just the draft and cheap free agents, they also spend the cap for proven talent, like hoodie does.

[ProblChld32]

4 hours ago, Nickster said:

 

The Sanu trade appears to be ridiculous.

 I believe he’s referring to Polian I could be wrong though 

[runthepost]

20 minutes ago, ProblChld32 said:

 I believe he’s referring to Polian I could be wrong though 

Both 

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

Apart from Leonard and Nelson isn't that basically just a long list of JAGs at this point? 

Yes, at this point. 

 

And since most of them are defensive players, 13 of 20, its why the defense looked like a bunch of JAGs were playing this year.  See the correlation?

 

And since there are very few receiving positions on that list....2 of the 20...its why the receiving corps/passing game looked like a bunch of JAGs (aka bad FAs) were playing this year.  See the correlation?

 

But wait.  Its all JBs fault.

[Imgrandojji]

1 hour ago, DEFENSE said:

but most do not fill the roster with just the draft and cheap free agents, they also spend the cap for proven talent, like hoodie does.

It's pointless to spend on FA talent until you've got your core established.

 

The last 2 years were about establishing that core.

 

I expect the checkbook to open this offseason.  If not, I'll be disappointed because it will mean that Ballard is a moneyball manager rather than a real top line GM.

[Dingus McGirt]

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

It's pointless to spend on FA talent until you've got your core established.

 

The last 2 years were about establishing that core.

 

I expect the checkbook to open this offseason.  If not, I'll be disappointed because it will mean that Ballard is a moneyball manager rather than a real top line GM.

Could the owner have some input/involvement in Ballard's expenditure of funds?

[ColtsBlueFL]

7 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

It's the draft.  The next GM with a 1.000 batting average in the draft will be the very first.

 

Ballard took a team that Grigson had run into the ground, and in the first year made the playoffs, and in the second year was on track before the team got derailed by a mix of injury, regression of key players (Vinateiri) and their inexperience getting exposed.

 

We were supposed to be in a 3 year rebuild after 17.  Ballard managed to turn the team around in a year and if Luck hadn't pulled the rug out from under him and Vinateiri hadn't fallen off a cliff we'd have probably done it again.

 

This franchise is in a much, much stronger position than 7-9 makes it look like.

]

 Polian says if you hit .550 (just over 1/2 become solid starters for around 3 years or more) in your career, you'll get a Gold jacket as a GM.

 

2 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

It's pointless to spend on FA talent until you've got your core established.

 

The last 2 years were about establishing that core.

 

I expect the checkbook to open this offseason.  If not, I'll be disappointed because it will mean that Ballard is a moneyball manager rather than a real top line GM.

 

Ballard/ the team evaluates FA players and place a $ on them. Being a FA, they likely have a 'cap' above that level. Once bidding exceeds that cap, Ballard backs off. He is quoted he couldn't live with himself if he overspent to outrageous levels others pay for 'good' FA's.

 

23 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Could the owner have some input/involvement in Ballard's expenditure of funds?

 

 Jim Irsay has given CB free reign to spend. It's Ballard and the pro scouting team that sets the 'cap' on FA pay. And they don't ignore it either.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Yes, at this point. 

 

And since most of them are defensive players, 13 of 20, its why the defense looked like a bunch of JAGs were playing this year.  See the correlation?

 

And since there are very few receiving positions on that list....2 of the 20...its why the receiving corps/passing game looked like a bunch of JAGs (aka bad FAs) were playing this year.  See the correlation?

 

But wait.  Its all JBs fault.

No.   The fault lies with the boy you continue to defend — Ryan Grigson.

 

The roster Ballard inherited was so bad that it’s taken MULTIPLE years to rebuild just to get things where they are.    See the correlation?  

Plus, the Colts recently lost a true franchise level quarterback.   The most important position in the game.   See the correlation? 

Things are never as simple and obvious as you seem to think they are. 

[Peterk2011]

6 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

Apart from Leonard and Nelson isn't that basically just a long list of JAGs at this point? 

 

Well, in that case, PFF selected 4 of these JAGs into their top50 rookies of 2019. (Okereke, Willis, Rock and Tell).

 

TOP 50 is the middle of the second round, so they're practically saying that Ballard has chosen 4 TOP 50 worthy players in 2019. He had 2 picks in the top 50. I don't necessary agree with their list, but it doesn't really matter. The mere number is impressive.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-top-50-highest-graded-rookies-through-week-17

 

Lets compare Ballard's 3 drafts to Belichick's last 3 drafts:

 

Ballard:

2017: Hooker, Mack, Walker, Stewart, Wilson

2018: Nelson, Leonard, Smith, Turay, Hines, Wilkens, Adams, Franklin (+ Fountain on IR)

2019: Rock, Banogu, Campbell, Okereke, Willis, Tell, Speed (+ a few on PS/IR)

                               

Belichick:

2017: Derek Rivers (97 NFL snaps in 3 years), Antonio Garcia (0 snaps, waived), Deatrich Wise (rotational de),  Conor McDermott (waived)

2018: Isaiah Wynn (7 games, left tackle), Sony Michel (starting RB), Duke Dawson (backup CB), Ja'Whaun Bentley (backup LB), Christian Sam (waived), Braxton Berrios (waived), Danny Etling (waived), Keion Crossen (waived), Ryan Izzo (#3 TE)

2019: N'Keal Harry (7 games, starter), Joejuan Williams (85 snaps), Chase Winovich (rotational DE), Jarrett Stidham (backup QB), Damien Harris (5 snaps), Yodny Cajuste (PS), Hjalte Froholdt (PS), Jake Bailey (pro bowl punter), Byron Cowart (43 snaps), Ken Webster (waived)

 

In 3 years, Ballard drafted 7 starters (2 of them all pros), 8 rotational/backups (I put Stewart, Hines, Wilkins and all contributing 2019 rookies here, though Rock was practically a starter) and 3 "who saw the field" (Wilson, Speed and Franklin). Out of 29 drafted players, 24 are still on the roster (82%). (Note: The remaining 5 are all on an other NFL team's roster - and playing).

 

In 3 years, Belichick drafted 3 starters (0 all pros), 3 rotational/backup players, 6 "who saw the field", and a good punter. Out of 23 players, 16 are still on the team (65%).

 

So, Ballard drafted more starters, than Belichick drafted starters + rotational/backups alltogether. And amongst them 2 all-pros. Ballard drafted 15 players who heavily contribute vs 6 from Belichick.

 

Aand, if we would compare FA-s and trades, we would find a similar difference in success/failures. (Like giving up a 2nd rounder for Sanu, recently). It was not just Brady why the Patriots sucked this season (compared to how good of a team that was a couple of years ago). I think if Ballard would've done what Belichick has done in the last 3 years, we'd want him out of Indy already.  

 

Of course, Belichick will fix his mistakes in the long term. At least I assume he will (who knows). But anyway, it's obvious how good of job Ballard has done so far in Indy. Not perfect of course, but good. Very-very good.

 

[ClaytonColt]

4 hours ago, Peterk2011 said:

. I don't necessary agree with their list, but it doesn't really matter. The mere number is impressive.

I don't agree with this list either which is why them being on it doesn't change my opinion on what I've seen from them so far.

 

As for drafting starters. It has to be remembered that not all starters are equal. Being a starter for the Bengals is not the same as being a starter for the Ravens. There are levels.

[Pacergeek]

Just because Rock was a PFF all pro, can we please stop pretending he had a good Rookie season. Spoiler Alert: he didn't.

 

I'd also like to address Banagu and his performance. He should also get some heat. For a second round pick, he did next to nothing. I hope they turn it around, but Ballard's 2019 second round picks were bad their Rookie years.

[Myles]

2 hours ago, Pacergeek said:

Just because Rock was a PFF all pro, can we please stop pretending he had a good Rookie season. Spoiler Alert: he didn't.

 

I'd also like to address Banagu and his performance. He should also get some heat. For a second round pick, he did next to nothing. I hope they turn it around, but Ballard's 2019 second round picks were bad their Rookie years.

No they weren't.   They played decent for rookies.   

[DougDew]

9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

No.   The fault lies with the boy you continue to defend — Ryan Grigson.

 

The roster Ballard inherited was so bad that it’s taken MULTIPLE years to rebuild just to get things where they are.    See the correlation?  

Plus, the Colts recently lost a true franchise level quarterback.   The most important position in the game.   See the correlation? 

Things are never as simple and obvious as you seem to think they are. 

What are you rambling about?

 

The list that was presented showed the players currently on the team, at this point.

It was quoted as mentioning other than Nelson and Leonard...(probably Smith should be in there)...the rest were a bunch of JAGs, at this point. (where the quoter made it clear at this point)

 

Might they be better than JAGs next year?  Possible.

 

But at this point, the defense played like we fielded a bunch of JAGs, as did our passing game, which has a bunch of cast offs who weren't even drafted by the Colts...many of whom are not good enough to return, unless we get desperate after this draft. 

 

If you look at the list of players, that's why those units played like JAGs, at this point.

 

Why else did they play that way?  JB?

 

But:

 

To pretend they have more talent then what they showed, at this point, is simple fantasy to support a Ballard genius-boy thinking.   Which was necessary to create the moment he was hired (starting off by cheering for drafting a Johnny-one-note FS at pick 15) in order to validate the blind hate for Grigson that was never warranted.... then attempting, in typical media mob tyrannical and oppressive fashion,  to stomp out every last bit of dissent by moving the goal posts of the conversation to RYAN GRIGSON with every thread about Ballard in the past three years. 

 

A simple way to do that this past season is to blame JB for everything so it makes it easier to ignore the roster and maintain the fantasy Ballard genius-boy view that was heavily invested in three years ago.

 

And now, to continually validate the hate for Grigson, you even have to argue with Ballard himself by supporting a roster even he said he was not happy with.

 

LOL.

 

[Myles]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

W

 

To pretend they have more talent then what they showed, at this point, is simple fantasy to support a Ballard genius-boy thinking.   Which was necessary to create the moment he was hired (starting off by cheering for drafting a Johnny-one-note FS at pick 15) in order to validate the blind hate for Grigson that was never warranted.... then attempting, in typical media mob tyrannical and oppressive fashion,  to stomp out every last bit of dissent by moving the goal posts of the conversation to RYAN GRIGSON with every thread about Ballard in the past three years. 

 

A simple way to do that this past season is to blame JB for everything so it makes it easier to ignore the roster and maintain the fantasy Ballard genius-boy view that was heavily invested in three years ago.

 

And now, to continually validate the hate for Grigson, you even have to argue with Ballard himself by supporting a roster even he said he was not happy with.

 

 

 

That's some funny stuff right there.   I don't think you have eve watched a football game.  Sure your on the correct forum?

 

There is no question that Ballard has done a much better job than Grigson.  It's not even debatable.  He has failed at one spot that is very glaring and has affected the defense all around.  The defensive line still needs additions.  

 

 

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, Myles said:

That's some funny stuff right there.   I don't think you have eve watched a football game.  Sure your on the correct forum?

 

There is no question that Ballard has done a much better job than Grigson.  It's not even debatable.  He has failed at one spot that is very glaring and has affected the defense all around.  The defensive line still needs additions.  

 

 

Where did I say that he didn't, and what does Ballard's performance relative to Grigson matter at this point, unless there is still some sort of continual validation for hate for Grigson or praise for Ballard that needs to be fed?

 

The roster at this point is what it is.  He's changed the scheme(s).  He's had the cap space.  It can be whatever he wants it to be if he's executed his plan properly.  Why it is necessary to compare it to the previous GM (who ran different schemes btw) if not to have that comparison mean something else?

 

I'm talking about the list of players that were presented in this thread.  They were brought here by Ballard.  No other person is part of the conversation, IMO.

 

[ClaytonColt]

9 hours ago, Peterk2011 said:

Lets compare Ballard's 3 drafts to Belichick's last 3 drafts:

 

I've actually just realized how funny this comparison is;

 

You've selected a period when Ballard has had;

 

• - 2 first round picks (average position average position 10) and 
• - 8 second round picks (average position 47)

 

While Belichick has had 

 

- 3 first round picks ( average position 28) and 

- 2 second round picks (average position 50)

 

I'd be more worried if Ballard couldn't find more people to contribute somewhat on a 7&9 roster when he's had 400% more second rounders and has been selecting his first rounders more than half a round in advance. Apples and oranges spring to mind. 

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Does anyone think that Ben Banogu was overdrafted? I don’t know where he was projected to go so not sure if ballard took him to soon. 

[DougDew]

28 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Does anyone think that Ben Banogu was overdrafted? I don’t know where he was projected to go so not sure if ballard took him to soon. 

Its hard to say.  I remember Ballard making a trade down a few spots in the second round, but I don't know if that was for the Ben pick or the Campbell pick.  He picked up a fifth rounder by moving down 3 slots.

 

IMO, Ben is a high ceiling potential pick that I think Ballard valued more than what the "experts" did.  I think he has done this with Turay and Lewis also.  I would say he did it with Hooker too, but the "experts" also agreed with investing  in that potential.

 

As of today, its hard to say if any were overdrafted because there has to be some time given for them to reach their potential.  Having said that, time is running short for Hooker and Lewis, IMO.

 

[Yoshinator]

23 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Does anyone think that Ben Banogu was overdrafted? I don’t know where he was projected to go so not sure if ballard took him to soon. 

Probably by a round yes. He's raw, but a physical freak, so Ballard probably thought he had to take him 49th overall.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I guess when your picking as low in the first you kind of have to go with more of a developmental DE. Turay looked like he turned the corner in year two. Hopefully Ben will too. I am sure he will work with Mathis a lot this off season. His PFF stats were pretty good in pressure rate. Imagine if Ben and Turay both end up very good and get second contracts. That will cost a ton. 

 

We need more guys who are ready to make a difference right away no matter where they are picked. I am really surprised Willis dropped to the 4th rd. He was clearly ready to play right away. 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

I guess when your picking as low in the first you kind of have to go with more of a developmental DE. Turay looked like he turned the corner in year two. Hopefully Ben will too. I am sure he will work with Mathis a lot this off season. His PFF stats were pretty good in pressure rate. Imagine if Ben and Turay both end up very good and get second contracts. That will cost a ton. 

 

We need more guys who are ready to make a difference right away no matter where they are picked. I am really surprised Willis dropped to the 4th rd. He was clearly ready to play right away. 

Banogu and Turay are very similar. I expect Banogu to make a leap year 2. As for Willis, Ballard traded up for him because he was his last starting safety remaining and he almost took him in the third round.