A new defensive scheme?

[Trace Pyott]

First of all let me start out by saying I’m not too privy on defensive schemes and coaching candidates. However I’ve heard many on here say they aren’t too happy with elberflus and his vanilla zone defense.  My question is this , would the colts be willing to go back and hire a defensive coordinator who is a 3-4 man to man guy instead of what we have now?  

 It seems to me that our current defense was built around luck, just like dungys defense was built around manning and getting leads so freeney and Mathis could wreck shop. Obviously that isn’t going to happen with JB and if we draft someone it’s going to take a few years for them to get acclimated to the league.  Also I believe it was polian who said the 4-3 is cheaper than a 3-4 and is good when you are paying someone like luck and manning a significant amount of your salary cap. Currently we don’t have that type of Qb so my question is, is possible that we go back to a 3/4?  I’m not saying we should I’m just asking if it’s possible or likely. Thanks.  

[aaron11]

you can run other schemes besides cover two from a 4-3

 

ballard said he didnt like 3-4 for an indoor team

[BProland85]

I would hope next year when we're healthy and with a fresh start on the season, Eberflus will be running more man coverage than zone. It seems we have the most success on defense with the former. 

[KB]

We were definitely playing man last night. The corners were running across left to right all night trying to cover the receivers. Zone probably would of helped.

[#12.]

You don't need a scheme change to get more aggressive, play more man, if that's what you want to do.

 

The secondary has been terrible recently, but the truth is vs. a QB like Brees, you're probably not going to shut him down.  You have to do what the 49ers did the previous week and outscore them.  You have to trade scores.  How do you do that with Brissett?  You can't.  You cannot compete at the highest level with a QB like Brissett.

 

 

[IinD]

We've never had an Aaron Donald or young Suh, that would be a dream.

 

Scheme stuff aside, a rush or good push on the interior line would go a long way even if the outside passrush is ok/nothing special.

[John Hammonds]

It's not that simple, switching defensive schemes.  Especially between a 4-3 Tampa 2 and a 3-4 Cover.  There are too many positions that require very specific skill sets and player types.

 

If we were to attempt to switch to a 3-4, here are some issues we would face:

1 - We have no true 0 technique Nose Tackle.  Grover Stewart could give it a stab, but he's barely a DL1T.  I can't see him as a quality NT.

2 - There is no place for DE's Justin Houston and Jabaal Sheard.  They don't transfer to 3-4 OLB's.  They're the wrong type of player.  We could possibly make a go of it with Kemiko Turay and Ben Banogu at 3-4 OLB's, but neither are proven.

3 - There is no place for Darius Leonard.  His skills are wasted as a 3-4 ILB.  Yes, he could play.  But he's not designed for it.  He's a perfect Tampa 2 weak side LB (in the mold of Derrick Brooks and Cato June).  Ok, it would be intriguing to see if he could move to 3-4 OLB like Lawrence Taylor.  But you'd still be crossing your fingers that it worked.

 

The main reason to switch to a 3-4 cover is the fact that Ya-Sin is better at man than zone.  That's about it.  And I'm not sure I would want to try to overhaul the entire defensive scheme for one rookie.

[EastStreet]

If we had any semblance of a rush at times, the zone would work a lot better. IMO, a good iDL would change the complexion of both the DL and the entire D.

 

I also think Eberflus needs to be more aggressive in two ways. He needs to blitz more (we are one of the least blitzing teams) and play man more in certain situations. You simply can't play soft zone all game against a QB like Brees has the best TTT in the league, and eats soft zones up.

[jameszeigler834]

3 hours ago, aaron11 said:

you can run other schemes besides cover two from a 4-3

 

ballard said he didnt like 3-4 for an indoor team

I hate watching our defense look so bad cause they play so much vanilla zone especially that prevent me from winning garbage that they have insisted on playing all season long its laughable just as laughable as them thinking Brissett even now that they are eliminated from the playoffs is the best thing for this team.

[Coffeedrinker]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

 

2 - There is no place for DE's Justin Houston and Jabaal Sheard.  They don't transfer to 3-4 OLB's.  They're the wrong type of player.  We could possibly make a go of it with Kemiko Turay and Ben Banogu at 3-4 OLB's, but neither are proven.

 

The main reason to switch to a 3-4 cover is the fact that Ya-Sin is better at man than zone.  That's about it.  And I'm not sure I would want to try to overhaul the entire defensive scheme for one rookie.

To the bolded, neither of those make any sense.  Justin Houston was an OLB for the Chiefs for years... most people wondered if he could transition to a 4-3 DE.

 

Regading Ya-Sin being better in man than zone... that doesn't make any sense either because teams run zone coverage from both a 3-4 and 4-3 base D and they run man from both Ds.  base alignment has nothing to do with coverage responsibility of the CBs.

[zibby43]

All I know is this:

 

There were probably practices this week at the Saints facility where Brees had more incompletions against air than he did against the Colts' defense on MNF. 

 

Let that sink in.

[Moosejawcolt]

Our biggest need on this team and even bigger than qb is 2 very good DTs. We can blame the secondary   we want.  U put this secondary behind an above average D line and we all may b singing a different tune

[John Hammonds]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

To the bolded, neither of those make any sense.  Justin Houston was an OLB for the Chiefs for years... most people wondered if he could transition to a 4-3 DE.

 

Regading Ya-Sin being better in man than zone... that doesn't make any sense either because teams run zone coverage from both a 3-4 and 4-3 base D and they run man from both Ds.  base alignment has nothing to do with coverage responsibility of the CBs.

I knew somebody was going to point out that Houston was an OLB for the Chiefs!  It was only a matter of time! 

[Two_pound]

What I seem to remember last season during the hot streak the defense was a lot closer to receivers than they have been the last 5-6 games. The corner blitz from Moore worked wonders last season. Moore and Leonard constantly were knocking balls down in front of receivers. The most puzzling thing however is how easily teams are swinging passes to running backs out of the backfield this year. Last season those kind of  plays usually lost yardage. This defense the last 5-6 games has reverted back to the Colt defenses of the last 47 years- it's like they are not even on the field. The effort or lack thereof last night was appalling. Even more incredible we have significant upgrades over last years team- Ya-sin, Willis, Okereke, Banagu are all better than guys we had last year. The run defense has still been pretty solid. Very interesting offseason coming up.

[will426]

59 minutes ago, Two_pound said:

What I seem to remember last season during the hot streak the defense was a lot closer to receivers than they have been the last 5-6 games. The corner blitz from Moore worked wonders last season. Moore and Leonard constantly were knocking balls down in front of receivers. The most puzzling thing however is how easily teams are swinging passes to running backs out of the backfield this year. Last season those kind of  plays usually lost yardage. This defense the last 5-6 games has reverted back to the Colt defenses of the last 47 years- it's like they are not even on the field. The effort or lack thereof last night was appalling. Even more incredible we have significant upgrades over last years team- Ya-sin, Willis, Okereke, Banagu are all better than guys we had last year. The run defense has still been pretty solid. Very interesting offseason coming up.

i agree with all besides run def there’s a lot more explosive runs and longer runs against us this year compared to last idk about overall yardage though 

[The Peytonator]

Base defense doesn’t matter anymore. Teams are playing nickel defense over 60% of the time at minimum so it’s all moot. That said, yeah I would be all about seeing more man coverage than zone. Historically, the best defenses have been ones that can get physical with WRs at the LoS and stick to their man in coverage. Pass rush matters less than coverage, the Seahawks showed that in 2013 and the Pats and Ravens have shown that this year. You can manufacture pass rush but you can’t manufacture perfect coverage without perfect coverage. 

[ProblChld32]

I honestly would love to see us run more cover 3. We have Hooker who is a great Center Field safety and Excels in the Deep third. Yet we play this soft cover 2 which I hate watching Hooker play in. You can run a cover 3 with man matching principles and I believe we have the talent to pull it off. It’s time to ditch the cover 2. Good offensive coordinators know exactly how to beat it. 

[NannyMcafee]

 As much as anyone wants to claim this defense isnt like Dungys, I beg to differ. This scheme needs a dominant pass rush, and an above average to great DT who can help collapse the pocket aswell in order for it to be a great defense. The same could be said of Dungys defense in particular. 

 

I dont think the Colts need to change schemes I think the defense is missing vital pieces it needs to be what its supposed to be. You cant skimp on pass rush in this scheme and it is majorly ineffective without a great DT in the middle. Polian might have thought it was cheaper back then, but now, pass rush and great dline guys arent cheap by any means, and you saw how little he invested in the defense back then. Pretty sure his theory of it being cheaper was wrong. It costs money to have a good player. 

 

I really hope Ballard invests heavily in the dline this off season. I want him to unleash some cap space on multiple guys as depth, and then use his second round picks on hopefully, above average players. Free up the LBers, and give QBs a short time span to throw it, and the CBs will look like all pros. They're good enough, just not good enough without a dominant dline. 

 

I see no reason to draft WR early when it's never been so deep. There are going to be day 2 players that fall to day 3 because there are so many. Draft one in the 3rd, but I dont expect to see as many injuries next year as there was this year. 

 

I'd also love to see Ballard sign another RG/RT. If he can do those 3 things, it would help this team significantly. 

 

Obviously using your first round pick on a QB. If there was a year for Ballard to do FA fun it's this one. The Colts are closer than people think. They're just missing a couple vital players. 

[Defjamz26]

Don’t need an entire scheme change. We need to be able to get pressure with 4 on the D-line. Currently, we don’t have anyone besides maybe Houston who can do that consistently. 

 

But there are times when you need to be able to run man. The issue with the secondary is a lot of things. It’s poor playcalling/game planning by Eberflus. It’s lack of talent. It’s a lack of corners who are actually zone corners. It’s a bad D-line, etc...

[Smonroe]

14 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Our biggest need on this team and even bigger than qb is 2 very good DTs. We can blame the secondary   we want.  U put this secondary behind an above average D line and we all may b singing a different tune

Ballard has several opportunities to get some quality DTs in this year.  But we’re more interested in keeping cap for the future.  

[Moosejawcolt]

3 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Ballard has several opportunities to get some quality DTs in this year.  But we’re more interested in keeping cap for the future.  

I am not sure Ballard is qualified to make key decisions for this team.  A lot of people drank the look aid,  I didnt.  I said with Luck leaving it would show how much takent is really on this team.  We have our answer

[SC-Coltsfan]

I don't think it would have mattered what defensive scheme we used Monday with the effort we gave. To me it looked liked we had no interest in playing that game. 

[NannyMcafee]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I am not sure Ballard is qualified to make key decisions for this team.  A lot of people drank the look aid,  I didnt.  I said with Luck leaving it would show how much takent is really on this team.  We have our answer

[throwing BBZ]

28 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Ballard has several opportunities to get some quality DTs in this year.  But we’re more interested in keeping cap for the future.  

 

 THIS is the offseason he has been saving for. Hope this helps.

[Thunderbolt]

I'll believe it when that happens....Another long year in 2020.

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

On 12/17/2019 at 4:06 PM, #12. said:

You don't need a scheme change to get more aggressive, play more man, if that's what you want to do.

 

The secondary has been terrible recently, but the truth is vs. a QB like Brees, you're probably not going to shut him down.  You have to do what the 49ers did the previous week and outscore them.  You have to trade scores.  How do you do that with Brissett?  You can't.  You cannot compete at the highest level with a QB like Brissett.

 

 

ballard likes him

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I have heard a lot of commentators mention the issue Monday was we showed the saints what we were in presnap and didn’t switch once ball was snapped. 

[VaAllDay757]

12 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I have heard a lot of commentators mention the issue Monday was we showed the saints what we were in presnap and didn’t switch once ball was snapped. 

This is true it was simple for brees....no type of disguise or anything just a bland, obvious look if matt doesn't do something better for next season he's definitely gone

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

This is true it was simple for brees....no type of disguise or anything just a bland, obvious look if matt doesn't do something better for next season he's definitely gone

I have noticed games that Kenny Moore misses our defense becomes very vanilla. He is so unique and can do so many things it’s hard to replicate what he does. I hope we can get Taylor back next year as a backup to Kenny.

[VaAllDay757]

10 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

I have noticed games that Kenny Moore misses our defense becomes very vanilla. He is so unique and can do so many things it’s hard to replicate what he does. I hope we can get Taylor back next year as a backup to Kenny.

Kenny moore is good but I refuse to believe this defense can't get right at all without him one player doesn't make the defense....that's where the coach has to go outside the box and make a scheme to work

[Coffeedrinker]

On 12/18/2019 at 9:49 AM, Moosejawcolt said:

I am not sure Ballard is qualified to make key decisions for this team.  A lot of people drank the look aid,  I didnt.  I said with Luck leaving it would show how much takent is really on this team.  We have our answer

You're right.  This year has shown that this team is just a couple of pieces away from being a real contender.

 

Or were you really expecting something more than a 7-9 to 9-7 season when:

The franchise QB (the one the team was built around) retires without giving the team proper time to prepare.

 

The #1, #2 and #3 WR spend half the year or more not playing

 

Cb#1 and CB#2 missing multiple games because of injury and playing injured in others.

 

The #1 receiving TE either playing  injured most of the year or giving up on the team after Luck retired.

 

And yet every game they have played except 2 (one win and one loss) have been close, hard fought games.

 

The team has a few holes, but to overcome all of that and still be a 7-9 or 8-8 team shows just how good the roster is and how deep it's getting in certain areas.  So, you're correct, we have our answer... CB makes some mistakes as do all GMs but in 2 years of getting Reich type players in he has built the foundations of an excellent roster.

[DougDew]

Its not scheme, its personnel.  TB and the Colts had great 43 zone defenses.  Oh wait, we do too, but its JBs fault they can't play well. LOL.

 

The solution would be to trade the Pointless Pancaker (can he do that on 3rd or 4th and 1?) for a 1st and 2nd round pick to recoup some of the capital we wasted on him.

 

Then trade 2017 pick #15 Malik Hooker to BALT for 2017 pick #16 CB Marlon Humphrey (2019 Pro Bowler) straight up.  After all, Hooker was rated like the 5th best player that year so Ballard stole him at 15.  I'm sure BALT knows that and would do that trade.