Finding the Franchise

[hoosierhawk]

22 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I would describe our QB as being under constant pressure. 
 Castonzo and Nelson pass block very well and we are mediocre after that.
  Mobility is going to be very important i would think.

He still has time to hold onto the ball longer than most QBs in the league.

[hoosierhawk]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I don't want to write a four page white paper, so some broad brushed statements have to be made.   Agreed about your characterization of Love.

 

QBs tend to get injured when they have contact.  The more an offense relies upon the QBs mobility either by a designed play or by ineffective pocket play, the more likely they will be injured.  Tua got hurt on a pass play where he was outside of the pocket.  Aaron Rogers broke his collar bone at least twice because he had to scramble or was extending the play.  PM, Brady, Big Ben tended to stay healthy.  Also, having some size and strength to withstand a DLs or LBs arm tackle helps too.

 

I'm simply saying that it seems counterproductive to our investment in a #6 LG to form a 4 second long stout pocket to now covet a college QB who's strong strait is mobility outside of the pocket.  I'm not talking about Love, since I would consider him more of a pocket passer, and his escapability from a collapsing pocket is not really on tape.  Given our oline, I'd think I'd want Love more than Tua, but I also want a 6'4 240 pound QB to stay in the pocket with confidence he can shed an arm tackle.  As far as Love with regards to that, he doesn't look to have the frame for it.  Burrow would be the guy.

Do you have facts to back that up or are you just making an assumption?

Food for thought:

Love- 6' 4", 225#

Burrow-6' 4", 216#

[DougDew]

27 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I would describe our QB as being under constant pressure. 
 Castonzo and Nelson pass block very well and we are mediocre after that.
  Mobility is going to be very important i would think.

If that's true, I would call pocket escapability to be important.  Eventhough he was slow afoot, Big Ben had some good escapability.  Guys like RGIII and Kaep were fast, but really didn't shift and scramble that well.  I don't know which of the QBs look to have great escapability.  Probably Tua.

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, hoosierhawk said:

Do you have facts to back that up or are you just making an assumption?

What "that" are you talking about?

 

If it's multiple "that's", my first few words were "I don't want to write a four page white paper"

 

But trust me, my brain can organize and process facts much better than someone's written algorithm and is much more objective than a lazy media link.  If you can't keep up, that's your problem.

[hoosierhawk]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

What "that" are you talking about?

 

If it's multiple "that's", my first few words were "I don't want to write a four page white paper"

 

But trust me, my brain can organize and process facts much better than someone's written algorithm and is much more objective than a lazy media link.  If you can't keep up, that's your problem.

The bolded. QBs tend to get injured when they have contact.

[jameszeigler834]

18 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Can you try this again?   Only thus time in complete sentences?   
 

Thanks.

 

Ok forget it Brissett is terrible.

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

The bolded. QBs tend to get injured when they have contact.

Without support of a 4 page white paper, as a broad statement, it is more accurate than saying, QBs tend to get injured when they don't have contact.

 

Perhaps a less literal reading of the sentence would be:  WHEN QBs get injured, its usually when they have contact.  OR, injuries to QBs tend to occur when they engage contact, as opposed to standing still and throwing, or by incidental contact of NFL thick arms spraining their boney ankles.

 

 

[EastStreet]

42 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 I would describe our QB as being under constant pressure. 
 Castonzo and Nelson pass block very well and we are mediocre after that.
  Mobility is going to be very important i would think.

That is not supported by any stat out there. 

 

We're right in the middle in terms of "QB Hits" this year. And I'd say that's darn good for a QB has a bottom 5 time to throw. And we were top 10 best last year, and that was with OL musical chairs the first 3rd of the season.

 

When you go from top 10 time to throw in 2018, to bottom 5 in 2019, you don't think that impacts the OL? Any QB that doesn't hold onto the ball all day will be just fine.

 

It's amazing people don't see the impact on the OL... Not only does JB have a very high TTT, but because teams don't respect his ability to pass, they can over focus early downs on the run, and have an easier time on obvious passing downs. It's amazing we're still top 5 in rushing.

[hoosierhawk]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Without support of a 4 page white paper, as a broad statement, it is more accurate than saying, QBs tend to get injured when they don't have contact.

 

Perhaps a less literal reading of the sentence would be:  WHEN QBs get injured, its usually when they have contact.  OR, injuries to QBs tend to occur when they engage contact, as opposed to standing still and throwing, or by incidental contact of NFL thick arms spraining their boney ankles.

 

 

Thanks Mr Obvious! I kind of thought that's how they get hurt but thanks for clearing that up.

[deedub75]

I like Brissett and all and I think he'd be much better with a better supporting cast but after next season is he worthy of a $100M+ contract?  

[hoosierhawk]

Just to throw out a wild thought, what if the Colts traded JB for Eli Manning and we drafted say a Jordon Love. I would rather have Eli tutoring a young QB rather than JB just due to the vast experience Eli has. I'll duck now and let you throw stones at the idea.

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Just to throw out a wild thought, what if the Colts traded JB for Eli Manning and we drafted say a Jordon Love. I would rather have Eli tutoring a young QB rather than JB just due to the vast experience Eli has. I'll duck now and let you throw stones at the idea.

I'd absolutely love Eli over Hoyer as a back up and mentor. And he'd absolutely love our OL over the NYG's.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Eli could give us one year I think with this oline.  There isn’t going to be many veterans willing to come in for just a year. Bree’s could be out there If the saints decide to start the bridgewater era. I don’t know if teddy would wait another year waiting on Brees.  Rivers arm is shot.

 

What if Teddy became a FA. He might be to expensive to take a risk long term.  He is a great person and would fit this organization really well. We wouldn’t have to draft the future if we got him.

[chad72]

3 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Eli could give us one year I think with this oline.  There isn’t going to be many veterans willing to come in for just a year. Bree’s could be out there If the saints decide to start the bridgewater era. I don’t know if teddy would wait another year waiting on Brees.  Rivers arm is shot.

 

What if Teddy became a FA. He might be to expensive to take a risk long term.  He is a great person and would fit this organization really well. We wouldn’t have to draft the future if we got him.

 

So is Eli's arm.

 

Time to move on to younger options. To be honest, I'd rather have Case Keenum over Eli or Hoyer. 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

18 hours ago, boo2202 said:

We’re drafting a QB in the 1st or 2nd round this year, like it or not. Brissett is a good backup. To consistently compete with Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, etc you need not a game manager. 

i hope we dont draft one of the project qbs in this draft, no one elite there, hope ballard can draft some game changing skill players

[lollygagger8]

4 hours ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

Or Reich isn’t scheming deep throws because we are missing top 4 WRs and our number 1 TE

 

Wait, Doyle is still playing

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

47 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Just to throw out a wild thought, what if the Colts traded JB for Eli Manning and we drafted say a Jordon Love. I would rather have Eli tutoring a young QB rather than JB just due to the vast experience Eli has. I'll duck now and let you throw stones at the idea.

i dont see this forums love for love, we dont need another maybe at qb

[Islandecho]

I think we have seen enough of JB through 28 games or so that he is not going to be anything better than average.  The only way you win with an average qb is to have a knock out D, which we don't have.

 

I don't see any reason why the Colts can't draft a stud QB, pay him on his cheaper rookie contract, and try to build a knock out D at the same time.  To me that makes more sense than staying with JB for $20 M a year and still trying to build that D.

[indyagent17]

14 hours ago, zibby43 said:

This is one of the most shocking Brissett stats I've seen this year.  I also shared this in the JB thread, but at the request of another poster who thought it would be useful to this conversation, I have also included it here.

 

 

Not only is it disheartening to see Brissett dead last by such a large margin (as @EastStreet pointed out), you can see that 2 division rivals now have QBs capable of generating explosive passing plays of 20+ yards.

 

 

Wow, that is a telling stat!

[Myles]

16 hours ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

All I am saying is we talk about Brissett like he has been awful. He is 6-6 (6-4 in games he started and finished). He might touch 3,000 yards and probably 21-24 touchdowns. If he gets goes even 3-1 in the last 4 the colts will be 9-7. If I told you after Luck retired that we would be without Hilton, Funchess, Rogers, Campbell, Ebron and Mack for parts or all the season,  and we would be 9-7, fighting for a playoff spot and have a QB with those stats...

 

I know I would take it. 
 

finally, we might draft a QB, and if that happens I am okay with. But there is no guarantee that sitting a QB for a year will turn him into Mahomes, Lamar or Watson.  All I am saying is let’s see what Brissett can do with some/most of his weapons. 

Brissett lacks the skill set to be a very good QB.  He can't read the field well.   He cannot anticipate or react to a blitz well.   He hasn't improved at all this season so it is safe to say it would be the same next year.  The lack of weapons have obviously hurt him a bit, but his game has stayed pretty much the same as when he had weapons.   Same game as he played in college and in 2017.   He hasn't improved.    if the Colts get healthy and even draft well, Brissett will most ikely lead us to a 7-9 win season in 2020.   All close games give the team high odds of finishing around .500.   That's good if your team stinks, but the Colts have a team that could win now.  

[Myles]

47 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Eli could give us one year I think with this oline.  There isn’t going to be many veterans willing to come in for just a year. Bree’s could be out there If the saints decide to start the bridgewater era. I don’t know if teddy would wait another year waiting on Brees.  Rivers arm is shot.

 

 

I'd still take Rivers over Eli and Brissett.  

[C0lts088]

16 hours ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

All I am saying is we talk about Brissett like he has been awful. He is 6-6 (6-4 in games he started and finished). He might touch 3,000 yards and probably 21-24 touchdowns. If he gets goes even 3-1 in the last 4 the colts will be 9-7. If I told you after Luck retired that we would be without Hilton, Funchess, Rogers, Campbell, Ebron and Mack for parts or all the season,  and we would be 9-7, fighting for a playoff spot and have a QB with those stats...

 

 

My only knock on the TD's is that when you examine the play calling (Specifically inside the 10) it looks as if its designed to pad Jacoby's stats. ESP the pitches to TE's/Wr/Rb's that are essentially a run but Jacoby gets the stat line. 

 

I honestly think Frank & co designed it that way to build trust/confidence in Jacoby by inflating his TD numbers. 

 

I could be wrong, but this is just something I've observed. 

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, hoosierhawk said:

I would rather have Eli tutoring a young QB rather than JB just due to the vast experience Eli has. I'll duck now and let you throw stones at the idea.

[richard pallo]

15 hours ago, zibby43 said:

This is one of the most shocking Brissett stats I've seen this year.  I also shared this in the JB thread, but at the request of another poster who thought it would be useful to this conversation, I have also included it here.

 

 

Not only is it disheartening to see Brissett dead last by such a large margin (as @EastStreet pointed out), you can see that 2 division rivals now have QBs capable of generating explosive passing plays of 20+ yards.

 

 

Is that the same Josh Allen who has the Bills at 9-3?  I wonder if Bills fans are clamoring to replace him because he can't throw the deep ball.   It guess it's true that winning is the perfect elixir.  Many here believe that if it wasn't for Vinny we would be 9-3 as well and I would bet fans wouldn't be clamoring to replace JB either. 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Is that the same Josh Allen who has the Bills at 9-3?  I wonder if Bills fans are clamoring to replace him because he can't throw the deep ball.   It guess it's true that winning is the perfect elixir.  Many here believe that if it wasn't for Vinny we would be 9-3 as well and I would bet fans wouldn't be clamoring to replace him either. 

I certainly would not say "Josh Allen who has the Bills at 9-3".....

What has Buffalo at 9-3 is a top 5 overall D, and a top 5 rushing O... despite Allen having near as bad passing stats as JB.

 

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I certainly would not say "Josh Allen who has the Bills at 9-3".....

What has Buffalo at 9-3 is a top 5 overall D, and a top 5 rushing O... despite Allen having near as bad passing stats as JB.

 

 

Josh Allen has as many or almost as many rushing TDs as Lamar Jackson, if I am not mistaken. That helps him minimize his inaccuracy weaknesses with fewer attempts, and pick his spots. I don't think JB is nearly the runner that Josh Allen is. Whether it is sustainable or not for the Bills, only time will tell.

 

Jared Goff's numbers are reflected in Brandin Cooks' production this year as well. 

[hoosierhawk]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I certainly would not say "Josh Allen w3 1/2 years youngerho has the Bills at 9-3".....

What has Buffalo at 9-3 is a top 5 overall D, and a top 5 rushing O... despite Allen having near as bad passing stats as JB.

 

Has 430 rushing yards with 8 rushing TDs. Would love to have him here. 3 1/2 yrs younger.

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Josh Allen has as many or almost as many rushing TDs as Lamar Jackson, if I am not mistaken. That helps him minimize his inaccuracy weaknesses with fewer attempts, and pick his spots. I don't think JB is nearly the runner that Josh Allen is. Whether it is sustainable or not for the Bills, only time will tell.

 

Jared Goff's numbers are reflected in Brandin Cooks' production this year as well. 

He's got 8 TDs and 400+ yards. Goes to the #5 rushing O.

He's an impoverished man's Jackson. He's also thrown on average an INT a game (2:1 TD:INT)

[chad72]

Just now, EastStreet said:

He's got 8 TDs and 400+ yards. Goes to the #5 rushing O.

He's an impoverished man's Jackson. He's also thrown on average an INT a game (2:1 TD:INT)

 

His accuracy has improved a tad this year though.

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Has 430 rushing yards with 8 rushing TDs. Would love to have him here. 3 1/2 yrs younger.

No thank you. Not unless he improves passing by a ton.

[MPStack]

2 hours ago, deedub75 said:

I like Brissett and all and I think he'd be much better with a better supporting cast but after next season is he worthy of a $100M+ contract?  

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

His accuracy has improved a tad this year though.

He has gotten a little better, but still a long way to go. 

I just don't see him getting to the level to sustain. If the D becomes average, they're a 500 team at best. 

[Myles]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

No thank you. Not unless he improves passing by a ton.

I would take him over Brissett for sure.   At least he is still improving.  

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I would take him over Brissett for sure.   At least he is still improving.  

At least he would add to the running game. 

But still, no thanks. I'll take our chances in the draft.

[OffensivelyPC]

22 hours ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

So I wanted to lay this out for the forum in regards to drafting a QB and moving forward from Brissett. I think we can all agree that Brissett is not elite but he could be a very good starter in the NFL. I know we argue that trying to find the next franchise QB is very difficult so should we not try. I am a known Brissett fan but that aside, look at some the teams trying to find their next great quarterback and how long it can take to even find one that could go to the playoffs. 

 

Below is the team and their last great quarterback (in parentheses next to the last great QB is the year they retired. The next number is the year the next somewhat okay QB was drafted or acquired)

 

49ers- Young (99)- Garcia (99)- Garapollo(17)

 

Broncos- Elway (98)- Manning(12)- still looking

 

Redskins-Theismann (85)- RG3(12)- still looking

 

Bears-McMahon (88)- Grossman(03)- Trubisky(17)

 

Browns-Kosar (93)- Mayfield(18)

 

Steelers-Bradshaw (83)- O’Donnell(90)- Roethlisberger(04)

 

Cowboys-Aikmen (00)- Romo (03)- Prescott(16)

 

Giants-Simms (93)- Manning(04)- Jones(19)

 

Buffalo-Kelly (96)- Bledsoe(02)- Allen(18)

 

Miami-Marino (99)- Tannehill(12)- still looking

 

Tennessee-McNair (05)- Young (06)- Mariota(15)- still looking

 

Also just look at the list of QB drafted that were bust recently

Ponder, Locker,Manuel, Russell, Losman, Couch, Manziel, Quinn, Boller, Leftwich, Leinart, Beck, Frye, Harrington, Kizer, Rosen, Mariota, Winston, Lynch

 

This is all to saw, we as Colts fan were blessed to go from Manning to Luck but that very rarely happens. We might want to consider we have a good QB and could have a great team around him. We are currently 19th in offense (with a huge lack of player makers on offense) and 13th in defense. If we aren’t careful, we could end up in the QB wasteland. 

 

Just saying. 

This mischaracterizes the issue in its entirety.  Just because it takes a long time for QBs to find generational talents at QB is not a reason they shouldn't try to get better at the position if the team doesn't have a generational talent at QB.  Bill Belichick has had Brady for the past 20 years and he's still drafted a QB every other year.  In the past 10 years, he's drafted 3 QBs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.  

 

It seems as though what you have in mind is teams selling the farm to trade up and take the #1 QB in the class at #1.  There are so many other viable ways ot get franchise QBs better than the one we have.  If we used a 2nd or 3rd on a QB, could it be the next Drew Brees or Russel Wilson?  Maybe.  But even if it's not and he sits a year and then ends up being better than Brissett, that's a win.  We can try again in another year or two.  You should always try to improve your roster and add valuable depth, no matter what the position is.  

 

Yeah, we have a mediocre QB.  We should still be using higher draft capital and perhaps trading up in cases where it makes sense.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I just listened to Colin Cowherd. He thinks Allen and Jackson are what the future will be at QB. He doesn’t think it is a fad. I would take Allen also. The kid is still improving.  

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

Thanks Mr Obvious! I kind of thought that's how they get hurt but thanks for clearing that up.

So you picked a fight about something I said that you now find out you agree with.  Thanks for your helpful contribution.

[2006Coltsbestever]

The million dollar question is, does Ballard think JB is the future? Half the forum say no, so if Ballard doesn't draft a QB are you guys going to say you are smarter than Ballard? I think JB is an above average QB and a lot of factors do go into why we are 6-6. Like a WR core that can't stay healthy, losing Mack for a few games, play calling, KICKING game etc.. JB was even injured himself. Maybe Ballard looks at all factors and thinks he can win it all with an average to above average QB with a good healthy team around him? Normally it takes a very good or great QB to win it all but usually those teams have several other flaws as well. I would like it if we drafted a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round like a Love for example but if we don't I am not going flip out either. I mean QB's like Hostetler, Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco, and Foles have won SB's so it is possible to win with an average to above average QB if the team around them is solid and healthy. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

Is that the same Josh Allen who has the Bills at 9-3?  I wonder if Bills fans are clamoring to replace him because he can't throw the deep ball.   It guess it's true that winning is the perfect elixir.  Many here believe that if it wasn't for Vinny we would be 9-3 as well and I would bet fans wouldn't be clamoring to replace JB either. 

Amazing.  One of the smartest posts on the forum in the past few weeks and it has gathered no "likes".  It must have gone over a lot of heads.

 

Yes.  In all of this talk about JB not hitting the down field receivers, the question is: 

 

How important is hitting down field receivers to winning football games?

 

Its about offensive scheme and philosophy.  Brady dinked and dunked his way to superbowls.  Reich/Pedersen in Philly used Wentz and Foles to implement a short passing game/ball control offense. 

 

While its always great to hit a chunk play, the reality is its more important in Reich's offense to throw the 7 yard pass to the correct hip/shoulder than it was with a Luck run offense.  JB was excellent at doing that when we went 6-2, and has struggled a bit since then.  That's why we've lost.  Its about his execution of the short pass.  Its not about not doing the same things he wasn't doing when we were winning.   

 

It would be better if he improved on those things, but those things aren't really the critical traits of the offense, IMO.

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Amazing.  One of the smartest posts on the forum in the past few weeks and it has gathered no "likes".  It must have gone over a lot of heads.

 

Yes.  In all of this talk about JB not hitting the down field receivers, the question is: 

 

How important is hitting down field receivers to winning football games?

 

Its about offensive scheme and philosophy.  Brady dinked and dunked his way to superbowls.  Reich/Pedersen in Philly used Wentz and Foles to implement a short passing game/ball control offense. 

 

While its always great to hit a chunk play, the reality is its more important in Reich's offense to throw the 7 yard pass to the correct hip/shoulder than it was with a Luck run offense.  JB was excellent at doing that when we went 6-2, and has struggled a bit since then.  That's why we've lost.  Its about his execution of the short pass.  Its not about not doing the same things he wasn't doing when we were winning.   He's being criticized for not doing things that, comparatively speaking, doesn't matter much.

 

It would be better if he improved on those things, but those things aren't really the critical traits of the offense, IMO.

I just gave it a LIKE, thanks. I didn't see the post. What he said is true.