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Colts passing game is a joke

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8 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

 

 

I'd argue a still shot is a really bad way to analyse zone coverage. I repeat, if you know the coverage, and they're not doing anything to disguise it or pressure the QB, you should beat it consistently as long as you execute. You're not going to get an idea if windows came open as WRs travel from zone to zone from this.

 

That said.. it does require touch, and anticipation as you've got to be hitting WRs when the windows open. Only way people are getting wide open is on blown coverages. 

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9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I like Reich and think he is a good coach so I am just puzzled by Thursday's game plan. Even @EastStreet was puzzled by it. After the way JB tore Houston up in game 1, I thought in game 2 we would throw more is all I am saying.

I kind of think game plans vary game by game and we shouldn't take too much from a single game plan. For example I can see us using this type of game plan even with Luck in certain situations or if he thinks there is a specific matchup we have overwhelming advantage with(example - game with KC). The game vs HOU was weird not because we employed any specific game plan, it was weird because it was the polar opposite of the game plan that worked last time against the same team. 

 

What is more note-worthy is the season-long tendency to take the ball away from the QB's hands. This has been the identity of this team over the season, not just a single game blip on the radar. 

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Just now, stitches said:

I kind of think game plans vary game by game and we shouldn't take too much from a single game plan. For example I can see us using this type of game plan even with Luck in certain situations or if he thinks there is a specific matchup we have overwhelming advantage with(example - game with KC). The game vs HOU was weird not because we employed any specific game plan, it was weird because it was the polar opposite of the game plan that worked last time against the same team. 

 

What is more note-worthy is the season-long tendency to take the ball away from the QB's hands. This has been the identity of this team over the season, not just a single game blip on the radar. 

 

You could argue it was a similar game plan to KC. Keep Watson off the field, dominate on the ground. We just didn't win. If we'd won would there be as many complaints?

 

Again, I'm not enamored with the way we played, but just offering some advocacy courtesy of Lucifer. 

 

I still stand by, if you want to win, you've got to be able to move the ball through the air. The passing game just feels so flat (and I don't mean passing to the flats). 

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2 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I'd argue a still shot is a really bad way to analyse zone coverage. I repeat, if you know the coverage, and they're not doing anything to disguise it or pressure the QB, you should beat it consistently as long as you execute. 

 

That said.. it does require touch, and anticipation as you've got to be hitting WRs when the windows open. Only way people are getting wide open is on blown coverages. 

Reich did mention they had some zone beaters in the playbook and they just didn’t execute. I agree with just seeing still shots. That’s why elite QB are elite. They know exactly when to get throw the ball.

 

Someone posted on here how Manning wanted to have guys wide open and I think it was Moore who had to work with him because guys in the nfl don’t get wide open. I still want to give Jacoby a year and see if he can improve that aspect of his game. I do have faith in Reich and the QB coach he can get better at that.

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3 minutes ago, stitches said:

What is more note-worthy is the season-long tendency to take the ball away from the QB's hands. This has been the identity of this team over the season, not just a single game blip on the radar. 

 

Sorry I felt this was worth its own reply. If that's really what's going on, it should tell you more about Brissett than any number of arguments on here. 

 

However, unless there is a massive implosion, he will be starting next season so strap in. 

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8 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I agree, it was an odd plan. I don't buy the "we got confused by them playing zone". I mean once you realise it's zone, as long JB can identify the shell well enough you should really be able to pick it apart unless they start doing some fancy things. 

 

If you listen to the forum hive mind zone defense is the worst thing ever.... 

 

What I will say is I don't think you can compare one game to the other, different situations, different guys on the field. It's a week to week business. Why the Pats are so good, hard to game plan against a chameleon. 

Agree 100%. Can't believe we as a team and coaching staff can't adjust to zone to man or vise versa we have a much bigger problem than we have been talking about. Defenses in this league changes during games from play to play on occasion. Great example of this was I believe in the first game with Houston we changed from zone to man constantly during the game.

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2 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

You could argue it was a similar game plan to KC. Keep Watson off the field, dominate on the ground. We just didn't win. If we'd won would there be as many complaints?

 

Again, I'm not enamored with the way we played, but just offering some advocacy courtesy of Lucifer. 

 

I still stand by, if you want to win, you've got to be able to move the ball through the air. The passing game just feels so flat (and I don't mean passing to the flats). 

The game plan would of worked to perfection if the defense hadn’t given up those chunk plays. That’s why the game plan can fall apart sometimes because it puts a lot of pressure on your defense.

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

Reich did mention they had some zone beaters in the playbook and they just didn’t execute. I agree with just seeing still shots. That’s why elite QB are elite. They know exactly when to get throw the ball.

 

Someone posted on here how Manning wanted to have guys wide open and I think it was Moore who had to work with him because guys in the nfl don’t get wide open. I still want to give Jacoby a year and see if he can improve that aspect of his game. I do have faith in Reich and the QB coach he can get better at that.

 

A lot of his shortcomings are things that are normally ironed out by now. He's not a rookie, he's had a year of starting, he's sat in the rooms, he's taken the practice reps. If he isn't going to improve in key fundamentals soon, he won't ever. That's a big problem. 

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4 minutes ago, stitches said:

I kind of think game plans vary game by game and we shouldn't take too much from a single game plan. For example I can see us using this type of game plan even with Luck in certain situations or if he thinks there is a specific matchup we have overwhelming advantage with(example - game with KC). The game vs HOU was weird not because we employed any specific game plan, it was weird because it was the polar opposite of the game plan that worked last time against the same team. 

 

What is more note-worthy is the season-long tendency to take the ball away from the QB's hands. This has been the identity of this team over the season, not just a single game blip on the radar. 

This season is so strange and unpredictable. I wouldn't doubt JB has a huge day vs the Titans and the Titans even have a good secondary. One thing I am half way decent at doing is predicting games and right now trying to predict what JB will do or if the Colts will win or lose is a crapshoot.

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1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Sorry I felt this was worth its own reply. If that's really what's going on, it should tell you more about Brissett than any number of arguments on here. 

 

However, unless there is a massive implosion, he will be starting next season so strap in. 

This might be a dumb question. But Reich uses a lot of RPO which gives the QB the option of a run or pass. How much is it Reich or Jacoby?

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1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Sorry I felt this was worth its own reply. If that's really what's going on, it should tell you more about Brissett than any number of arguments on here. 

 

However, unless there is a massive implosion, he will be starting next season so strap in. 

 

I swear man, if they don't draft a guy to either replace JB next year or in 21, I'm not watching that % next year. It's hard enough being a Notre Dame fan, that's all I need is 2 teams that can't get it done. 

 

It's clear as day that they need a better option, to do that you have to take a shot on a guy with a high ceiling. Of course, they don't all pan out, but isn't that better than knowing that you're stuck in mediocrity? To me, it's a no brainer.

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

The game plan would of worked to perfection if the defense hadn’t given up those chunk plays. That’s why the game plan can fall apart sometimes because it puts a lot of pressure on your defense.

 

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

 

However, this is even more damning, as it shows we couldn't, or Reich didn't trust to go to plan B. I.e. throw the damn ball.

 

We'd often see the best of Luck when everything had gone to hell and and he just cut loose because the game plan had gone to hell. That's what I mean by a QB putting a team on his back. It will happen, and the best in the league can drag their team to a win. 

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1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

You could argue it was a similar game plan to KC. Keep Watson off the field, dominate on the ground. We just didn't win. If we'd won would there be as many complaints?

 

Definitely no. Many here straight up openly tell you that all they care about is the W/L record. I've had no trouble criticizing Jacoby after wins and praising him after losses depending on how he played. Many close their eyes to the worrying signs as long as we win. The problem is that those worrying signs come home to roost sooner or later if not corrected and Jacoby hasn't really corrected much of anything over the season. Actually, I think he's getting worse, which can be seen by the ever increasing time to throw, while the Y/A keep being low, which means that he's not waiting for deep routes to develop, it means he has trouble reading the field and going through progressions so he just holds the ball and holds it and holds it until either sacked or forced out of the pocket or he dumps it to his back. 

 

Quote

 

Again, I'm not enamored with the way we played, but just offering some advocacy courtesy of Lucifer. 

 

I still stand by, if you want to win, you've got to be able to move the ball through the air. The passing game just feels so flat (and I don't mean passing to the flats). 

 

Yep, it is flat, because we are lacking any advanced passing completions by our QB. Nothing long, nothing that requires anticipation, not much where he's required to put it only where the WR can get it in tight windows, etc.  

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

This season is so strange and unpredictable. I wouldn't doubt JB has a huge day vs the Titans and the Titans even have a good secondary. One thing I am half way decent at doing is predicting games and right now trying to predict what JB will do or if the Colts will win or lose is a crapshoot.

It would be funny if he has his best game of the year. I believe he had three TD in the first game. 

 

There is a chance though we get DF and Campbell back so if we do play well on offense maybe that will be why.

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3 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

This might be a dumb question. But Reich uses a lot of RPO which gives the QB the option of a run or pass. How much is it Reich or Jacoby?

 

There are no dumb questions. 

 

It depends IMO. 

 

If the look the D is giving isn't conducive to the play, that's maybe on Reich to call a TO, but also on Brissett to change up the play at the line. 

 

Picking the right "option" is on Brissett.

 

Executing is on well, everyone. 

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9 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

You could argue it was a similar game plan to KC. Keep Watson off the field, dominate on the ground. We just didn't win. If we'd won would there be as many complaints?

 

Again, I'm not enamored with the way we played, but just offering some advocacy courtesy of Lucifer. 

 

I still stand by, if you want to win, you've got to be able to move the ball through the air. The passing game just feels so flat (and I don't mean passing to the flats). 

I am one that always says winning is everything but had we won I still would've been critical of JB after this one. I hadn't seen him play that bad all season.

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3 minutes ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

 

I swear man, if they don't draft a guy to either replace JB next year or in 21, I'm not watching that % next year. It's hard enough being a Notre Dame fan, that's all I need is 2 teams that can't get it done. 

 

It's clear as day that they need a better option, to do that you have to take a shot on a guy with a high ceiling. Of course, they don't all pan out, but isn't that better than knowing that you're stuck in mediocrity? To me, it's a no brainer.

 

I think the most likely scenario for Brissett being replaced in the soonest amount of time, is drafting a guy to sit with a mind to taking over end 20/Starter 21 depending on how they, and Brissett play. 

 

If we don't draft a QB, then you either hope Brissett improves a lot, or hope he implodes so at least you're drafting high. 

 

Just a weird situation all round. 

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There is also a little silver lining if we get those two WR back next week. There isn’t a lot of film on them. So maybe we will have a few wrinkles. If we do slip into the playoffs Mack will have fresh legs and we will have all the WR healthy.

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2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

It would be funny if he has his best game of the year. I believe he had three TD in the first game. 

 

There is a chance though we get DF and Campbell back so if we do play well on offense maybe that will be why.

 

I'd love nothing more than for JB to ball out, because that would allow us to spend the draft picks in other areas, further strengthening the team, rather than having to replace the QB. I just don't see it happening, not to the degree necessary to get where Ballard/Reich ultimately want the team. 

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Jacoby's holding the ball too long is due to the fact that he's "looking, but not seeing". The technique he needs to learn is to "see without looking". That would help his read progression, and the technique can be learned in 2 - 3 months.

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am one that always says winning is everything but had we won I still would've been critical of JB after this one. I hadn't seen him play that bad all season.

 

I keep trying to make the point, I think everyone would say it's about winning. But what I, and others, have been trying to point out is that we've been winning against the snide. Unless things improved very likely we'd start losing some of this coin flip games. 

 

What is even more worrying is that things are getting worse, not better. It's not all Brissett, but however you dice it up, the QB is the most important and impactful player. 

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Nightmare scenario is that he plays just good enough that we barely miss the playoffs, but that's his ceiling. Then, they give him another year or two, and we're essentially stuck in neutral.

 

I either want him to ball out, or fall on his face. No middle of the road, mediocrity. 

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17 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I think it depends on a huge variety of factors. For one I think there a difference between O and D in that you've got more freedom to change it up on O, in fact you really should, unless you're so good you can execute at will. Odd example, but Harbough era 49ers with Smith, who you knew were going to be power run and short stuff. But would still go and out do just that even if the D knew it was coming. 

I think Reich might have been over confident in what he though Houston would do, over confident in his game plan, and simply failed to make real time, and half time adjustments.

16 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

 

Holder is often the king of cheery picking screen shots... While he might point out that JB misses an opportunity, he rarely screen shots negative plays. His MO is to show how tough it is...

13 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I'd argue a still shot is a really bad way to analyse zone coverage. I repeat, if you know the coverage, and they're not doing anything to disguise it or pressure the QB, you should beat it consistently as long as you execute. You're not going to get an idea if windows came open as WRs travel from zone to zone from this.

 

That said.. it does require touch, and anticipation as you've got to be hitting WRs when the windows open. Only way people are getting wide open is on blown coverages. 

This...

4 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Sorry I felt this was worth its own reply. If that's really what's going on, it should tell you more about Brissett than any number of arguments on here. 

 

However, unless there is a massive implosion, he will be starting next season so strap in. 

If the first part is true, I'm not believing the second part yet :D

3 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

The game plan would of worked to perfection if the defense hadn’t given up those chunk plays. That’s why the game plan can fall apart sometimes because it puts a lot of pressure on your defense.

The chunk plays by Fuller had a huge impact to the flipping the field and some critical 3rd down pick ups, but the D held them to under 21 pts... And we still beat them in time of possession. I truly doubt Reich thought he was going to hold Houston to under to 21 on the road, so I doubt seriously if that was a factor in his game plan.

2 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

A lot of his shortcomings are things that are normally ironed out by now. He's not a rookie, he's had a year of starting, he's sat in the rooms, he's taken the practice reps. If he isn't going to improve in key fundamentals soon, he won't ever. That's a big problem. 

This... too.... 

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Just now, SteelCityColt said:

 

I think the most likely scenario for Brissett being replaced in the soonest amount of time, is drafting a guy to sit with a mind to taking over end 20/Starter 21 depending on how they, and Brissett play. 

 

If we don't draft a QB, then you either hope Brissett improves a lot, or hope he implodes so at least you're drafting high. 

 

Just a weird situation all round. 

I think it will all depend on who stays in college and who comes out. Also how much they like the QB in the 2020 draft. They might look ahead and say the 2021 draft is better.

 

I keep saying a rookie sets us back. But then you have to look at the chiefs and ravens. It didn’t set them back at all. It’s kind of funny how everyone was calling for Jackson’s to be  gone last year now look at him.

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3 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Jacoby's holding the ball too long is due to the fact that he's "looking, but not seeing". The technique he needs to learn is to "see without looking". That would help his read progression, and the technique can be learned in 2 - 3 months.

Here's a scientific article that helps explain: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042698910001069

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6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

This season is so strange and unpredictable. I wouldn't doubt JB has a huge day vs the Titans and the Titans even have a good secondary. One thing I am half way decent at doing is predicting games and right now trying to predict what JB will do or if the Colts will win or lose is a crapshoot.

I'm very worried for the Titans game. Titans are a different team now than in the beginning of the season. I worried before the season that Mariota will get hurt and they will put Tennehill on the field, who I think is much better but Mariota was so bad that they didn't even need him to get injured. Tennehill is not some killer of a QB, but he's competent and almost beat us last year with Miami and we won only thanks to that amazing Luck play at the end. He's more aggressive than Mariota and has better anticipation, which means he can actually move the ball. Plus their defense is actually kind of good and Jeffery Simmons has returned from his injury and is everything I thought he would be in the league. He's a menace. If they line him up against Glowinski he will eat. 

 

I'm not feeling good about this game. 

 

 

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Just now, EastStreet said:

I think Reich might have been over confident in what he though Houston would do, over confident in his game plan, and simply failed to make real time, and half time adjustments.

Holder is often the king of cheery picking screen shots... While he might point out that JB misses an opportunity, he rarely screen shots negative plays. His MO is to show how tough it is...

This...

If the first part is true, I'm not believing the second part yet :D

The chunk plays by Fuller had a huge impact to the flipping the field and some critical 3rd down pick ups, but the D held them to under 21 pts... And we still beat them in time of possession. I truly doubt Reich thought he was going to hold Houston to under to 21 on the road, so I doubt seriously if that was a factor in his game plan.

This... too.... 

 

Have you watched the All22? Because there are a lot of plays where he flat out fails to make the proper read, or is way too slow to diagnose and the defense closes the window. 

 

Flat out, he has to improve his ability to make timely reads, and make the throws. He's being too timid, but a pick or two is okay if you throw for 400 and 4 TDs. 

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

I keep saying a rookie sets us back. But then you have to look at the chiefs and ravens. It didn’t set them back at all. It’s kind of funny how everyone was calling for Jackson’s to be  gone last year now look at him.

 

The Ravens situation is a good analogue in some respects. Flacco the incumbent, his job to lose, with a raw prospect on the bench. 


I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop with Jackson, namely when someone actually can square him up and hit him hard, but I also though Mahomes couldn't reproduce last year. 

 

Not that I follow the college game, but if Love/Eason is there in the 2nd, I wouldn't be too upset. 

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4 minutes ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

 

Have you watched the All22? Because there are a lot of plays where he flat out fails to make the proper read, or is way too slow to diagnose and the defense closes the window. 

 

Flat out, he has to improve his ability to make timely reads, and make the throws. He's being too timid, but a pick or two is okay if you throw for 400 and 4 TDs. 

 

So, and I know I keep promising this and I will write it up soon, but when you look at INT % vs WIN% and Passing TD% vs WIN%, you can make a case for it's better to risk the pick to an extant if there's a good chance of a TD. 

 

To put it another way... I'd rather take a reasonably worse TD:INT ratio for a bigger volume of TDs. 

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5 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

The Ravens situation is a good analogue in some respects. Flacco the incumbent, his job to lose, with a raw prospect on the bench. 


I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop with Jackson, namely when someone actually can square him up and hit him hard, but I also though Mahomes couldn't reproduce last year. 

 

Not that I follow the college game, but if Love/Eason is there in the 2nd, I wouldn't be too upset. 

 

Lamar is built like a tank, guys like Vick were 190 and frail. Jackson is a better passer than Vick was too, and a better runner. Lamar is setting records on the ground and still putting up respectable passing numbers. 

 

I think we are seeing teams transition to that style of play, guys like Russell Wilson pioneered it. Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson, and Kyler Murray are the future of the game. Mobile guys that can also make throws. I'd like to bring in a guy like Jalen Hurts for that reason, I think he could be the next guy in that mold. What he's doing at Oklahoma this year is really impressive, I think he deserves the Heisman. 

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5 minutes ago, stitches said:

I'm very worried for the Titans game. Titans are a different team now than in the beginning of the season. I worried before the season that Mariota will get hurt and they will put Tennehill on the field, who I think is much better but Mariota was so bad that they didn't even need him to get injured. Tennehill is not some killer of a QB, but he's competent and almost beat us last year with Miami and we won only thanks to that amazing Luck play at the end. He's more aggressive than Mariota and has better anticipation, which means he can actually move the ball. Plus their defense is actually kind of good and Jeffery Simmons has returned from his injury and is everything I thought he would be in the league. He's a menace. If they line him up against Glowinski he will eat. 

 

I'm not feeling good about this game. 

 

 

That is what I mean, I have no idea what Colts team will show up next week. I thought the Jags game would be real close and we blew them out. I thought even with Hoyer we would beat Miami, we did not.

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E

10 minutes ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

Nightmare scenario is that he plays just good enough that we barely miss the playoffs, but that's his ceiling. Then, they give him another year or two, and we're essentially stuck in neutral.

 

I either want him to ball out, or fall on his face. No middle of the road, mediocrity. 

I have no problem getting some upgrades and letting him finish his contract.  With all the turmoil two weeks before the season I think that is fair as long as he doesn’t fall in his face the last five games. Imagine the pressure he had not screwing up what was supposed to be a SB team. He never really got his feet under him. I also think there is a lot he can do in the off season as a starter he might not have done as a backup. Like using the off season to work on his own with the WR like Luck did. I bet there is also a lot of things he might do now to improve his game since he is the starter. He has the intangibles and it’s not his fault the WR group for decimated. It’s going to be a interesting  draft that’s for sure. 

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21 hours ago, DougDew said:

  Since he has plenty of time, what are people saying he is looking at?  That he watches his first read for four seconds then when that receiver doesn't come open he checks down or runs? 

 

This is my thinking as well.

 

I believe that Jacoby Brissett will vindicated in the near future.

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3 minutes ago, egg said:

 

This is my thinking as well.

 

I believe that Jacoby Brissett will vindicated in the near future.

What does vindication look like in your eyes? 


Most QBs in the league can have a great game. What separates the elite from the great and the great from the good and the good from the not so good is consistency. In my eyes vindication would look like a consistently high level of performance over month or two... what's the chance this happens with Brissett? 

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18 minutes ago, stitches said:

What does vindication look like in your eyes? 


Most QBs in the league can have a great game. What separates the elite from the great and the great from the good and the good from the not so good is consistency. In my eyes vindication would look like a consistently high level of performance over month or two... what's the chance this happens with Brissett? 

 

It looks like this:

 

Someday, even you will be satisfied with Jacoby Brissett as the Cotls QB.

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6 minutes ago, stitches said:

What does vindication look like in your eyes? 


Most QBs in the league can have a great game. What separates the elite from the great and the great from the good and the good from the not so good is consistency. In my eyes vindication would look like a consistently high level of performance over month or two... what's the chance this happens with Brissett? 

Well the chances it could happen are pretty good if we get everyone back healthy the last few games. This to me is where I am really evaluating this offense because this is how it should of looked all season. If we get everyone back and it doesn’t improve then it might be time to look for another QB. We still need a WR who is another deep threat though in the draft.

 

I bet Ballard and Reich even realize that the injuries have effected things in a big way and will weigh on their decision. 

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1 minute ago, egg said:

 

It looks like this:

 

Someday, even you will be satisfied with Jacoby Brissett as the Cots QB.

 

For me to be satisfied we have to win a SB, or make the playoffs and have a legit shot at bare minimum. 

 

If you aren't playing for that, then what's the point?

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    • Fort Wayne North changed their  mascot from Redskins to Legends in 2016
    • I sure hope the Arabians, Quarter, Thoroughbred, Appaloosa and the Shetlands are not taking offense to us using the Colts name. We have had that name since 1953. 
    • I wish this was uniform across the NFL. The Packers are going to send a questionnaire to season ticket holders giving them the option to opt out and receive a refund or credit for next season. They also said that masks would be required as well as social distancing.    I’ve already asked the Colts about opting out and I would do it right now if they’d let me. They haven’t given me a clear answer about what they are going to do. The NFL has already said they were going to tarp off the first 6-8 rows of seats in all stadiums. 
    • They definitely do.  My son and daughters former high school changed their nickname from "Indians" to "Eagles" years ago.  There is another local high school who just announced they will be changing their nickname from "Barons"  to something else. They will have a contest to determine a new name.  The district does not like the connotation it brings with the early practice of serfdom to the wealthy barons of nobility.  A practice similar to slavery.  
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