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Will Carroll has claimed for years that the turf/field at Lucas Oil Stadium is the worst in the league.  He's argued that it's the hardest field in the NFL and the turf is very sticky.

 

Some of the highest injury rates for both Colts and opposing players.

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32 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

Will Carroll has claimed for years that the turf/field at Lucas Oil Stadium is the worst in the league.  He's argued that it's the hardest field in the NFL and the turf is very sticky.

 

Some of the highest injury rates for both Colts and opposing players.

They said that about the Dome too. 

 I guess the "grass" grows "harder" in Indy.

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https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/11/14/t-y-hilton-remains-sidelined-by-calf-injury/

 

Quote

 

T.Y. Hilton didn’t practice the last two weeks before sitting out of two straight Colts losses and he has not practiced yet this week either. While head coach Frank Reich said Hilton is day-to-day, it’s hard to imagine he’ll be on the field Sunday after so much missed time.

 

Parris Campbell remains out with a hand injury and Devin Funchess is unlikely to be activated this week after returning to practice for the first time since Week One. Zach Pascal, Chester Rogers, Marcus Johnson and Ashton Dulin are on hand at wide receiver.

 

It also looks like the team will have tight end Jack Doyle. He practiced on Thursday after sitting out on Wednesday due to a shoulder injury.

 

 

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1 minute ago, 1959Colts said:

Don’t really know Marcus or Ashton at WR, but hopefully they break out for us. Cain seems to be stuck in limbo and it seems extremely unlikely TY or Funchess are back this week. Hopefully Doyle and MAC are good to go, JB needs all of the pass catchers he can get

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4 minutes ago, LuckyHorseShoe§ said:

Concerning, but we looked similar at KC. I have faith in the Colts to pull this one out.

As long as Brian Hoyer doesn’t play, that is

I think you can say that defensive injuries can be covered up more then offensive injuries.

 

Hopefully Jacoby can’t get something going with Johnson. He is the only one with some speed.

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20 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I think you can say that defensive injuries can be covered up more then offensive injuries.

 

Hopefully Jacoby can’t get something going with Johnson. He is the only one with some speed.

I don’t why, but I have confidence in this game. The D looked good last week and we did move the ball a couple of times even with no WR and Brian Hoyer, so I think we’ll show up. I have a strange feeling that we’ll come out and smash the Jags in the mouth.

I really hope I’m right

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8 minutes ago, LuckyHorseShoe§ said:

I don’t why, but I have confidence in this game. The D looked good last week and we did move the ball a couple of times even with no WR and Brian Hoyer, so I think we’ll show up. I have a strange feeling that we’ll come out and smash the Jags in the mouth.

I really hope I’m right

I hope so. It’s just concerning after that Steelers loss they still came out with that effort against the jags. I guess we can give it a little bit of a pass since Reich didn’t seem to prepare hoyer very well.

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4 hours ago, Superman said:

The turf at LOS didn't hurt Parris Campbell's hand, or Funchess' collarbone (in LA), or Jacoby's knee, etc. 

 

Other teams have just as many injuries.

 

https://www.azcardinals.com/team/injury-report/

 

I haven't looked at the data for 2019 yet, and I wouldn't pin it all on the playing surface at LOS, but in 2018, the Colts were second-to-last/31st (almost the very worst in the league) in terms of Adjusted Games Lost to injuries, per Pro Football Outsiders.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/2018-adjusted-games-lost-part-i

 

They were not quite as bad (26th) in 2017, but definitely not good. 

 

Every team deals with injuries, but it seems the Colts consistently deal with a multitude of injuries to critical players with extended absences.

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15 hours ago, zibby43 said:

Will Carroll has claimed for years that the turf/field at Lucas Oil Stadium is the worst in the league.  He's argued that it's the hardest field in the NFL and the turf is very sticky.

 

Some of the highest injury rates for both Colts and opposing players.

For years?  The current turf was installed last year

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9 hours ago, zibby43 said:

 

I haven't looked at the data for 2019 yet, and I wouldn't pin it all on the playing surface at LOS, but in 2018, the Colts were second-to-last/31st (almost the very worst in the league) in terms of Adjusted Games Lost to injuries, per Pro Football Outsiders.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/2018-adjusted-games-lost-part-i

 

They were not quite as bad (26th) in 2017, but definitely not good. 

 

Every team deals with injuries, but it seems the Colts consistently deal with a multitude of injuries to critical players with extended absences.

 

I'm not denying that the Colts have dealt with a lot of injuries. I'm challenging the idea that there's something/someone to blame for it, other than just the game of football. 

 

For instance, how do the trainers or the turf figure into JB's knee injury? Last year, who's to blame for Doyle's hip injury (that happened in Washington, not Indy), or his kidney injury? How do you prevent Deon Cain's torn ACL, or Devin Funchess' broken collarbone?

 

People continue to perpetuate this idea that 'something must be wrong' because the Colts have a lot of injuries, and have latched on to the concept that the turf must be problematic, or the training staff isn't good. I don't think there's any proof that either of those things are true. 

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6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

For years?  The current turf was installed last year

 

Just reporting the facts.  Perhaps "new" turf was from the same supplier, and was of the same style/variety as the previous surface.

 

Don't shoot the messenger lol.  It's his argument; not mine.   

 

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not denying that the Colts have dealt with a lot of injuries. I'm challenging the idea that there's something/someone to blame for it, other than just the game of football. 

 

For instance, how do the trainers or the turf figure into JB's knee injury? Last year, who's to blame for Doyle's hip injury (that happened in Washington, not Indy), or his kidney injury? How do you prevent Deon Cain's torn ACL, or Devin Funchess' broken collarbone?

 

People continue to perpetuate this idea that 'something must be wrong' because the Colts have a lot of injuries, and have latched on to the concept that the turf must be problematic, or the training staff isn't good. I don't think there's any proof that either of those things are true. 

 

There's a detailed study out there on all the playing surfaces and which ones have produced the most injuries. 

 

That said, even with Carroll, I don't think he has ever claimed that the turf is solely to blame.

 

I think with Carroll, his argument has been that the Colts' problem is systemic: from the training staff to the stadium playing surface, and everything in between.  All of these things are cumulative.  To look at it any other way would be irrational.

 

Furthermore, I don't think it's always the proximate causes of the injuries that he's complaining about, but the way they're handled after being sustained. 

 

There was a lot of smoke that one of the reasons Luck retired this year was because he was not happy with how the Colts were dealing with his most recent leg/ankle injury.

 

Here's an example of something that interests me: It doesn't look like Funchess is close to returning from his collarbone injury.  Foles suffered his injury the same week and is playing against us.

 

Meanwhile, ND had 2 players (Cole Kmet and Michael Young) return from collarbone injuries in 4-6 weeks (both w/ surgery) during the season and played at a high level.

 

Now, I know that everyone heals differently, and not all collarbone breaks are created equal, but did the Colts treat Funchess' injury correctly, with the correct procedure?  He has been one of the slowest returning collarbone cases in the NCAA/NFL this year.

 

Desir's hamstring is another example.  Did the Colts blow it by playing him too soon?  It's lingered throughout the entirety of the season.

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On 11/15/2019 at 11:35 AM, zibby43 said:

There's a detailed study out there on all the playing surfaces and which ones have produced the most injuries. 

 

That said, even with Carroll, I don't think he has ever claimed that the turf is solely to blame.

 

I think with Carroll, his argument has been that the Colts' problem is systemic: from the training staff to the stadium playing surface, and everything in between.  All of these things are cumulative.  To look at it any other way would be irrational.

 

Furthermore, I don't think it's always the proximate causes of the injuries that he's complaining about, but the way they're handled after being sustained. 

 

There was a lot of smoke that one of the reasons Luck retired this year was because he was not happy with how the Colts were dealing with his most recent leg/ankle injury.

 

Here's an example of something that interests me: It doesn't look like Funchess is close to returning from his collarbone injury.  Foles suffered his injury the same week and is playing against us.

 

Meanwhile, ND had 2 players (Cole Kmet and Michael Young) return from collarbone injuries in 4-6 weeks (both w/ surgery) during the season and played at a high level.

 

Now, I know that everyone heals differently, and not all collarbone breaks are created equal, but did the Colts treat Funchess' injury correctly, with the correct procedure?  He has been one of the slowest returning collarbone cases in the NCAA/NFL this year.

 

Desir's hamstring is another example.  Did the Colts blow it by playing him too soon?  It's lingered throughout the entirety of the season.

 

I'm responding to this late, but I just want to say that I find this rather sensational. 

 

First, there was no "real" smoke about Luck not being happy with the way the Colts handled his injury. If there is, I'd like to see something other than unsubstantiated whispers from unverifiable sources.

 

Second, regarding Funchess, as you said, different players and different injuries heal at different rates. It's unreasonable to even try to compare one person's injury to another, especially when it's an injury with a wide range of recovery time. We haven't seen the scans, we don't know the severity of the breaks, and ultimately, we're probably talking about a 2-3 week difference in recovery time, which isn't even worthy of discussion because everyone heals differently.

 

A few years ago, a bunch of Bucs players came down with MRSA infections. You'd have a point if something like that were happening.

 

Same thing with Desir. Actually, it's the opposite, because while you're suggesting that the Colts did something to prevent Funchess from coming back sooner, you're saying they did the opposite with Desir and brought him back before he was ready. And you're talking about a hamstring injury, which is something that's known to linger and reoccur.

 

It's not my intention to claim that there's nothing wrong with the Colts' injury/recovery process, or their medical operation from top to bottom. I'm also not claiming that the playing surface at LOS is the best and is above reproach. But I do find it pretty ridiculous when people make connections based on specious claims, and then promote them around the Internet. Show me something legitimate. Otherwise, it's just complaining about injuries in the NFL, which seems silly to me.

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On 11/15/2019 at 12:18 AM, zibby43 said:

 

I haven't looked at the data for 2019 yet, and I wouldn't pin it all on the playing surface at LOS, but in 2018, the Colts were second-to-last/31st (almost the very worst in the league) in terms of Adjusted Games Lost to injuries, per Pro Football Outsiders.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/2018-adjusted-games-lost-part-i

 

They were not quite as bad (26th) in 2017, but definitely not good. 

 

Every team deals with injuries, but it seems the Colts consistently deal with a multitude of injuries to critical players with extended absences.

 

On 11/15/2019 at 10:09 AM, Superman said:

 

I'm not denying that the Colts have dealt with a lot of injuries. I'm challenging the idea that there's something/someone to blame for it, other than just the game of football. 

 

For instance, how do the trainers or the turf figure into JB's knee injury? Last year, who's to blame for Doyle's hip injury (that happened in Washington, not Indy), or his kidney injury? How do you prevent Deon Cain's torn ACL, or Devin Funchess' broken collarbone?

 

People continue to perpetuate this idea that 'something must be wrong' because the Colts have a lot of injuries, and have latched on to the concept that the turf must be problematic, or the training staff isn't good. I don't think there's any proof that either of those things are true. 

 

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm responding to this late, but I just want to say that I find this rather sensational. 

 

First, there was no "real" smoke about Luck not being happy with the way the Colts handled his injury. If there is, I'd like to see something other than unsubstantiated whispers from unverifiable sources.

 

Second, regarding Funchess, as you said, different players and different injuries heal at different rates. It's unreasonable to even try to compare one person's injury to another, especially when it's an injury with a wide range of recovery time. We haven't seen the scans, we don't know the severity of the breaks, and ultimately, we're probably talking about a 2-3 week difference in recovery time, which isn't even worthy of discussion because everyone heals differently.

 

A few years ago, a bunch of Bucs players came down with MRSA infections. You'd have a point if something like that were happening.

 

Same thing with Desir. Actually, it's the opposite, because while you're suggesting that the Colts did something to prevent Funchess from coming back sooner, you're saying they did the opposite with Desir and brought him back before he was ready. And you're talking about a hamstring injury, which is something that's known to linger and reoccur.

 

It's not my intention to claim that there's nothing wrong with the Colts' injury/recovery process, or their medical operation from top to bottom. I'm also not claiming that the playing surface at LOS is the best and is above reproach. But I do find it pretty ridiculous when people make connections based on specious claims, and then promote them around the Internet. Show me something legitimate. Otherwise, it's just complaining about injuries in the NFL, which seems silly to me.

 

First, you absolutely implied that there was nothing wrong with either the Colts injury/recovery process or the turf, in the post of yours I included above (bold text).

 

Second of all, you had that response after I showed you objective data that disputed that claim.  Accordingly, I would argue I did show you something legitimate.  See the post I included above, where the Colts were near the bottom of the league in Adjusted Games Lost to injuries for 2 consecutive years.

 

I'm going to make a not-so-bold prediction and forecast the Colts will hit the 3-consecutive years mark at the end of 2019.  3 years is a trend.  That's not specious (respectfully).

 

The Luck smoke talk is exactly what I said it was: smoke.  I didn't use the world "real."  Everything you said about all collarbone breaks being different, I already acknowledged in my post, which makes me question if you even read it, or else why waste time on that?

 

Finally, implying anything I said was ridiculous is taking it a little too far.  I try to keep it respectful on here, and although I may disagree with someone's comments, I try to never make statements like that.  I think you, of all people, know that's probably going a bit over the line. 

 

Enjoy your posts man, and I agree with you most of the time, but you've been all over the place on this one, and kind of rude to me for no reason.

 

 

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1 hour ago, zibby43 said:

First, you absolutely implied that there was nothing wrong with either the Colts injury/recovery process or the turf, in the post of yours I included above (bold text).

 

Second of all, you had that response after I showed you objective data that disputed that claim.  Accordingly, I would argue I did show you something legitimate.  See the post I included above, where the Colts were near the bottom of the league in Adjusted Games Lost to injuries for 2 consecutive years.

 

I'm going to make a not-so-bold prediction and forecast the Colts will hit the 3-consecutive years mark at the end of 2019.  3 years is a trend.  That's not specious (respectfully).

 

The Luck smoke talk is exactly what I said it was: smoke.  I didn't use the world "real."  Everything you said about all collarbone breaks being different, I already acknowledged in my post, which makes me question if you even read it, or else why waste time on that?

 

Finally, implying anything I said was ridiculous is taking it a little too far.  I try to keep it respectful on here, and although I may disagree with someone's comments, I try to never make statements like that.  I think you, of all people, know that's probably going a bit over the line. 

 

Enjoy your posts man, and I agree with you most of the time, but you've been all over the place on this one, and kind of rude to me for no reason.

 

 

I don't think I've been rude, but I hope you know it wasn't my intention to offend you.

 

1) I didn't imply that nothing was wrong. I said that blaming the Colts process or the turf is unreasonable, because there's no evidence, and certainly no proof, that there's anything wrong with either of those two elements. Is there evidence that I'm overlooking?

 

2) You posted a stat that shows the Colts have a lot of players miss a lot of games. And while that stat makes sense, it doesn't offer any theories about possible reasons for these injuries. It doesn't acknowledge the nature of the injuries suffered -- for instance, an ACL tear when a player is rolled up on is probably not related to either the turf or the training staff. And it doesn't specify where the injury happened -- for instance, a player getting hurt on a field other than LOS probably shouldn't be attributed to the turf at LOS, right?

 

I didn't respond directly to that stat because I don't see it as evidence that "there's something wrong" with the Colts process or playing surface. 

 

The stat also has no bearing on the injuries that have happened this season, which we've been discussing, nor does it have any bearing on the rumors about Luck not being happy with the Colts staff. So, not specious, but I never said that stat was. I stand by my statement that rumors about Luck are specious (at best).

 

3) You did mentioned that players heal differently. Then you went on to compare the recovery of players with similar injuries and use them as examples, indicating that maybe something is wrong with how Funchess and Desir have recovered. 

 

So my point is, why bring it up? Funchess and Foles had similar injuries. We don't know whether they had the same injury. We don't know what might have differed in the operations they had, or in their body composition that might affect their recovery timeframe. And since we're primarily talking about a bone healing, it seems obvious that there's nothing anyone can do to speed that process up. 

 

Same with the Luck "smoke." It's entirely unsubstantiated, so why bring it up? I feel like it's something that people on the Internet have mused about, and then it gets repeated a few times, and now it's a "rumor." Pretty soon, it will be offered as fact, and it's anything but.

 

4) Sometimes people say things that are absolutely ridiculous, and I don't think it's over the line to identify them as ridiculous.

 

In this case, I wasn't specifically saying you're being ridiculous, but I can understand why you took my earlier post personally.

 

There's been this idea for several years now that the Colts turf is causing players to be injured, that the training staff sucks, the practice schedule is bad, they should hit more in practice, they should hit less in practice, etc., etc. And I think people find patterns where none really exist, because then we can find a way to blame someone or something for it, and it can easily be fixed. 

 

The Colts have had random and weird injuries for a long time. They pre-date the present coaching staff, front office, training staff, and players... And for those who think the building was placed on top of an ancient burial site and is now cursed, these weird injuries pre-date the building as well. 

 

Yes, the Colts have had a lot of injuries, and although the FO stat says they've been hit worst than most for two years in a row (and probably three, given how this season has gone; and if you adjust it to include Luck, who retired due to injury, it's even worse), there's a very random nature to many of the injuries suffered. I've already mentioned examples. Where's the common thread? Not location, not type of injury, not soft tissue vs bone, not upper body vs lower body, etc. 

 

I hope the Colts are looking at the injury situation from every angle possible, and if there's anything that can reasonably be done to improve in this area, I hope they figure it out and implement it. But realistically, what it comes down to is that football players get hurt, and since they're still human they recover at different rates.

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