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mirobi48

Next Ed Reed

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Malik Hooker we were told, still waiting for him to make some plays like, you know like Minkah Fitzpatrick who came to a team with no training camp and has turned there defense around

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No, that isn't what we were told. That is what Pagano said to the player.

 

So what exactly is the question in this thread?

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I dont Remember him being called that. However, I agree that I am waiting for him to make more plays than he has made. I see people call him elite and I dont see it 

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29 minutes ago, mirobi48 said:

Malik Hooker we were told, still waiting for him to make some plays like, you know like Minkah Fitzpatrick who came to a team with no training camp and has turned there defense around

Minkah Fitpatrick went to a team with a great front 7. It's easier to be a great S for a team with a great pass rush. I'm sure our DBs would look much better if you put Heyward, Watt, and Hargrave on the Colts D.

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7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Minkah Fitpatrick went to a team with a great front 7. It's easier to be a great S for a team with a great pass rush. I'm sure our DBs would look much better if you put Heyward, Watt, and Hargrave on the Colts D.

 

 

Yep

 

Forgive the short reply. I need 664 posts to reach 10,000. Plus Nadine has not censored me in almost 2 years.

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It's these kind of threads that makes me avoid the forum during losses. Senseless

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Hah I remember that video when Hooker was drafted...you could hear Ballard specifically say something like "Don't tell him about the Ed Reed comparison" probably as to not give Malik a big head, and not two seconds later Pagano told him "You're gonna be our Eddy Reed." Oh, Chuck...

I like Malik though, I think he was worth the 1st rounder talent wise. Our pass defense is much better with him out there. It's injuries that I hope won't curb his career. Not to mention, he's improved in his tackling ability which doesn't seem to be talked about much. 

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The Ravens were Great at stopping the run AND at pressuring the QB.
 Reed had Elite speed and a Beautiful Mind to eat up anything, anywhere.
What a great combo. We clearly are missing some pieces that could unleash Hooker's inner Reed.
80% as effective as Reed would give you a really good player.

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I'm not interested in talking about Hooker specifically.  Y'all can do that.

 

But the idea that a player drafted in the first round NEEDS other high talent around him in order to justify the pick is just nonsense.  The first round pick is supposed to make the other players look better than they are.

 

It's like saying an Oline consisting of pick 6, 18, 22, and 37, needs a franchise QB in place in order to make it look good and play well.  The talented oline is supposed to make the QB and RB look better than they are. 

 

Obviously, more talent at other positions always makes any one player play their best, but the first rounders are suppose to elevate the play of the others, not the other way around.

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12 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Minkah Fitpatrick went to a team with a great front 7. It's easier to be a great S for a team with a great pass rush. I'm sure our DBs would look much better if you put Heyward, Watt, and Hargrave on the Colts D.

 

Yep.

 

When the Steelers' 2008 squad D was built, they had Lamar Woodley and a vaunted DL in the middle plus James Harrison. Most of them were drafted, they had Troy Polamalu for the Minkah like safety, not a true free safety but someone who is around the ball most of the time. 

 

They got their Troy Polamalu for the 2019 squad, I can definitely say.

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11 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Hah I remember that video when Hooker was drafted...you could hear Ballard specifically say something like "Don't tell him about the Ed Reed comparison" probably as to not give Malik a big head, and not two seconds later Pagano told him "You're gonna be our Eddy Reed." Oh, Chuck...

I like Malik though, I think he was worth the 1st rounder talent wise. Our pass defense is much better with him out there. It's injuries that I hope won't curb his career. Not to mention, he's improved in his tackling ability which doesn't seem to be talked about much. 

 

Ever since he came back from his injury, he has been tackling a little more aggressively, if I am not mistaken. 

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3 hours ago, DougDew said:

I'm not interested in talking about Hooker specifically.  Y'all can do that.

 

But the idea that a player drafted in the first round NEEDS other high talent around him in order to justify the pick is just nonsense.  The first round pick is supposed to make the other players look better than they are.

 

It's like saying an Oline consisting of pick 6, 18, 22, and 37, needs a franchise QB in place in order to make it look good and play well.  The talented oline is supposed to make the QB and RB look better than they are. 

 

Obviously, more talent at other positions always makes any one player play their best, but the first rounders are suppose to elevate the play of the others, not the other way around.

 

No one says he needs it. He's already getting results. The only point made is that Minkah Fitzpatrick is elevated by other high talent around him, and Malik Hooker is not

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Hooker is pretty good, he’s just often injured.  It would be great to see what he would do fully healthy and starting all year.  That seems like a pipe dream unfortunately.

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11 minutes ago, Malakai432 said:

Hooker is pretty good, he’s just often injured.  It would be great to see what he would do fully healthy and starting all year.  That seems like a pipe dream unfortunately.

Same could be said with all our ohio state picks

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1 hour ago, BigQungus said:

 

No one says he needs it. He's already getting results. The only point made is that Minkah Fitzpatrick is elevated by other high talent around him, and Malik Hooker is not

 

Its like saying that Nelson is elevated by Luck and JB, Kelly, and AC.   And when he has a below average QB, his play looks like its from a fairly average G.  

 

Is the thinking that the position they play isn't really impactful, and there need to be quality players at impactful positions in order for a FS and a G to look elite?  It sounds like that's what's being said about Hooker, Nelson, and Reed for that matter.

 

I don't think they call players all-pros or not because of who plays next to them.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Its like saying that Nelson is elevated by Luck and JB, Kelly, and AC.   And when he has a below average QB, his play looks like its from a fairly average G.  

 

Is the thinking that the position they play isn't really impactful, and there need to be quality players at impactful positions in order for a FS and a G to look elite?  It sounds like that's what's being said about Hooker, Nelson, and Reed for that matter.

 

I don't think they call players all-pros or not because of who plays next to them.

 

Doug, that's typically the way it works.  Elite players are usually part of elite units comprised of multiple very good-to-elite players.

 

The Ravens defense was elite before Ed Reed was drafted, and it was elite after he left.  The players around him allowed him to be elite.  You put him on the Lions defense for his career, and his "elite" status is probably put in question because he isn't surrounded by the same playmakers as he was in Baltimore.  Reed has the same talent, but is surrounded by lesser talent.

 

Zach Martin is an elite guard on an elite OLine that also includes a great Center and elite Left Tackle.  Put him on the Cardinals for his career, and his elite status might be in question.

 

Do Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne get Gold Jackets if they're on different teams with revolving doors of QBs instead of playing their careers with Peyton Manning?  If Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders switch teams, does Emmitt get the records and the Gold Jacket behind that Detroit OLine?  How good could Barry Sanders have been behind that Cowboys OLine?

 

Just try to imagine Malik Hooker as the FS for the Seahawks/Ravens/Pats/Steelers right now, or Quenton Nelson as the LG for the Cowboys right now.  The supporting talent absolutely makes a difference.

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Our defensive line doesn't generate enough consistent pressure to force bad throws.  Also teams have already learned to not throw at Hooker very often.  Opposing QB's test Minkah more so he's getting more opportunities.  Just see the lollipop Hoyer threw him a couple weeks ago. 

 

Also his last score was off a tipped overthrow.  Great pressure will lead qb's to make poor throws like that.  Leonard and Moore just got 2 like that last game.  Get us a consistent game wrecking D Lineman in here and watch Hooker begin to shine.

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Malik Hooker, when healthy, does something that few other players do in the NFL: Scares QBs away from the deep ball. Just look at his target totals, its a rare NFL quarterback that will throw his way, and even then they don't do so confidently. It doesn't show up in the box score, but he does his job and he does it very well.

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1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Doug, that's typically the way it works.  Elite players are usually part of elite units comprised of multiple very good-to-elite players.

 

The Ravens defense was elite before Ed Reed was drafted, and it was elite after he left.  The players around him allowed him to be elite.  You put him on the Lions defense for his career, and his "elite" status is probably put in question because he isn't surrounded by the same playmakers as he was in Baltimore.  Reed has the same talent, but is surrounded by lesser talent.

 

Zach Martin is an elite guard on an elite OLine that also includes a great Center and elite Left Tackle.  Put him on the Cardinals for his career, and his elite status might be in question.

 

Do Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne get Gold Jackets if they're on different teams with revolving doors of QBs instead of playing their careers with Peyton Manning?  If Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders switch teams, does Emmitt get the records and the Gold Jacket behind that Detroit OLine?  How good could Barry Sanders have been behind that Cowboys OLine?

 

Just try to imagine Malik Hooker as the FS for the Seahawks/Ravens/Pats/Steelers right now, or Quenton Nelson as the LG for the Cowboys right now.  The supporting talent absolutely makes a difference.

Exactly. How good was Shaun Alexander after the Seahawks lost Hutchinson and Jones?

 

He sure looked elite when those guys were paving roads on the left side of that line. 

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1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Doug, that's typically the way it works.  Elite players are usually part of elite units comprised of multiple very good-to-elite players.

 

The Ravens defense was elite before Ed Reed was drafted, and it was elite after he left.  The players around him allowed him to be elite.  You put him on the Lions defense for his career, and his "elite" status is probably put in question because he isn't surrounded by the same playmakers as he was in Baltimore.  Reed has the same talent, but is surrounded by lesser talent.

 

Zach Martin is an elite guard on an elite OLine that also includes a great Center and elite Left Tackle.  Put him on the Cardinals for his career, and his elite status might be in question.

 

Do Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne get Gold Jackets if they're on different teams with revolving doors of QBs instead of playing their careers with Peyton Manning?  If Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders switch teams, does Emmitt get the records and the Gold Jacket behind that Detroit OLine?  How good could Barry Sanders have been behind that Cowboys OLine?

 

Just try to imagine Malik Hooker as the FS for the Seahawks/Ravens/Pats/Steelers right now, or Quenton Nelson as the LG for the Cowboys right now.  The supporting talent absolutely makes a difference.

I get it LCF.  What I'm trying to understand is any comparison of one player to the next, when the very next thought then talks about how much his play is impacted by the different players he has around him.  And how that concept is used.

 

What I don't understand is when we talk about how Hooker's status is artificially dragged down  by our other defenders, why is it that the elite defenders he played with in college didn't artificially elevate his status prior to the draft.  Would he have been a stud college saftey he  played for Butler instead of OSU?

 

If comparisons are made to Ed Reed, and Ed Reed was Ed Reed because of Ngata, Suggs, and Lewis, then we need those types of players before Hooker can be Ed Reed too.

 

I simply don't understand the comparison to Ed Reed....and yes it was made at the time....when the other pieces we apparently need for him to achieve his value were nowhere to be found on the roster then and at any time the past three years.

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we don’t play an aggressive enough defense to emphasize the safety position. More often than not he’s required to be en a deep half. that is his responsibility. by nature his targets will be dwn and plsymaking limited. If anything is impacting Malik the most it’s our scheme  

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10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I simply don't understand the comparison to Ed Reed....and yes it was made at the time....when the other pieces we apparently need for him to achieve his value were nowhere to be found on the roster then and at any time the past three years.

 

He was compared to Ed Reed because of his talent.  He has elite talent.

 

His performance is what we are concerned with now.  He is showing flashes of elite performance, but you're right, we need to add more talent around him (especially the front 7, like Ngata and Suggs types) to really create an elite defensive unit where he is one of the cornerstone pieces along with Leonard.

 

Same with Nelson.  His talent is elite, and that's why we took him at #6.  Luckily we already had Castonzo and Kelly, and added Smith in the same draft.  Now we have elite talent all along the OLine, and we're seeing flashes of elite performance.  If we have the skill-position pieces to compliment an elite OLine, we can really create an elite offensive unit where Nelson is one of the cornerstone pieces.

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2 hours ago, DougDew said:

 

Its like saying that Nelson is elevated by Luck and JB, Kelly, and AC.   And when he has a below average QB, his play looks like its from a fairly average G.  

 

Is the thinking that the position they play isn't really impactful, and there need to be quality players at impactful positions in order for a FS and a G to look elite?  It sounds like that's what's being said about Hooker, Nelson, and Reed for that matter.

 

I don't think they call players all-pros or not because of who plays next to them.

 

 

 

But he already does look elite, that's my point. It's not that he needs other players to look elite, it's that safeties who have other players like how Minkah Fitzpatrick has the Steelers front 7 look better than safeties who don't have other players. In very simple terms, quality players in other positions elevate the play of the safety. Therefore, Minkah Fitzpatrick is getting more visible results than Hooker in part because he has a lot more help, and not necessarily because he's much better than Hooker

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Hooker has only been targeted 6 times all year, 4 catches allowed and one pick

 

PFF doesnt agree the Minkah Fitzpatrick has been that much better.  Hooker 79.8, Mink 80.1

 

i dont always resort to pff grades, but it is hard to watch a free safety on tv

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39 minutes ago, BigQungus said:

 

But he already does look elite, that's my point. It's not that he needs other players to look elite, it's that safeties who have other players like how Minkah Fitzpatrick has the Steelers front 7 look better than safeties who don't have other players. In very simple terms, quality players in other positions elevate the play of the safety. Therefore, Minkah Fitzpatrick is getting more visible results than Hooker in part because he has a lot more help, and not necessarily because he's much better than Hooker

 

49 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

He was compared to Ed Reed because of his talent.  He has elite talent.

 

His performance is what we are concerned with now.  He is showing flashes of elite performance, but you're right, we need to add more talent around him (especially the front 7, like Ngata and Suggs types) to really create an elite defensive unit where he is one of the cornerstone pieces along with Leonard.

 

Same with Nelson.  His talent is elite, and that's why we took him at #6.  Luckily we already had Castonzo and Kelly, and added Smith in the same draft.  Now we have elite talent all along the OLine, and we're seeing flashes of elite performance.  If we have the skill-position pieces to compliment an elite OLine, we can really create an elite offensive unit where Nelson is one of the cornerstone pieces.

As an aside, since a deep FS isn't covering anybody, he's not really the one being targeted.  Its the CB generally, if not simply a great WR.  QBs might not be throwing it deep because the CBs are stride for stride with the WR, or playing off coverage and allowing the short and middle throws.  Saying Hooker isn't being targeted has a different meaning , IMO.

 

I'm not being critical of Hooker.  He's part of a secondary that's probably ascending in terms of making plays.  All I'm saying is that Freeney was the 11th pick, and had basically nobody playing around him, yet he made his impact.  Mathis was there, but nobody else.  And Mathis lead the NFL in sacks during Grigson years, so I assume you would be saying its because RG built a great defensive roster around Mathis. And as safeties go, Sanders elevated the whole secondary, if not the whole defense at SS.

 

I'm not excusing the lack of playmaking because of who plays around him.  It matters yes, but if it matters a lot, then maybe it simply means that other positions are more important than FS.  

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33 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

Hooker has only been targeted 6 times all year, 4 catches allowed and one pick

 

PFF doesnt agree the Minkah Fitzpatrick has been that much better.  Hooker 79.8, Mink 80.1

 

i dont always resort to pff grades, but it is hard to watch a free safety on tv


A very minuscule difference in percentages. However, Minkah has made a far bigger impact while being targeted as little as Hooker has.

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

All I'm saying is that Freeney was the 11th pick, and had basically nobody playing around him, yet he made his impact.

 

We don't need to get into all the specific metrics, but there are some positions where elite performance can be measured in one-on-one matchups instead of the overall performance of the unit.

 

Take Joe Thomas for example.  He was an elite pass-blocking LT.  He won his one-on-one matchups regularly, even though his unit was sub-par and his offense was typically abysmal.

 

Freeney could win his one-on-one matchups and affect games by getting to the QB.  Both were regular All-Pros even though their units/teams weren't good at some things.

 

Hooker has a different role.  He's typically not in one-on-one matchups.  He can do his job exceptionally well, but if the talent around him isn't doing their jobs, the defense overall doesn't look good, even though Hooker is applying his elite talent exactly as he is supposed to.

 

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm not excusing the lack of playmaking because of who plays around him.  It matters yes, but if it matters a lot, then maybe it simply means that other positions are more important than FS.

 

Very true.  Malik will look bad without a front-7 to help him.  It's apples and oranges, but it's kind of hard to do real quality apples-to-apples comparisons in such a team-oriented game.

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22 hours ago, coltsfan_canada said:

I do like Malik Hooker but 1st RD pick hmm hard to take it but I love Khari Willis

Good call.  Willis is the cream of this draft for us. Nice player, I can see him being our safety for years to come.

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10 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Yep.

 

When the Steelers' 2008 squad D was built, they had Lamar Woodley and a vaunted DL in the middle plus James Harrison. Most of them were drafted, they had Troy Polamalu for the Minkah like safety, not a true free safety but someone who is around the ball most of the time. 

 

They got their Troy Polamalu for the 2019 squad, I can definitely say.

Yup. That's why I've been pretty consistent about the need for improving the DL. I think Hooker, Desir, RYS, Willis, Moore, would all look much better if we spent some coin on one or two more legit pieces up front.

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23 hours ago, mirobi48 said:

Malik Hooker we were told, still waiting for him to make some plays like, you know like Minkah Fitzpatrick who came to a team with no training camp and has turned there defense around

I'm not sure what the point of this conversation is.  Our secondary is made of good pieces and Hooker is one of them.  They're literally the least of our worries right now.

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1 hour ago, Rally5 said:

Good call.  Willis is the cream of this draft for us. Nice player, I can see him being our safety for years to come.

Give RYS some time. Played more snaps than anyone on D. He's making rookie type mistakes, not mistakes because he's "limited". From a DB perspective, guessing SS/Box is the easiest to come in and make an impact, whereas it typically takes CBs a while. 

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