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lollygagger8

The Art of throwing receivers open Brissett, Hoyer Stampede Blue

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1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Actually 2 of his interceptions were because he didn't lead the receivers.  Even the would be touchdown turned interception to Ebron was high and kinda behind him. Not out in front. His interception to Pascal was late and behind him.  We haven't seen JB throw one of those since week 2 against the Titans.  Hoyer was also behind to Ebron again on the first play of our final 4 plays. 

 

He was so scared of throwing another interception afterwards that he avoided the intermediate throws & started throwing deep fades & shots up the seam into double & triple coverage.  Oh yeah & his 3rd interception (actually the 2nd in order) was a horrendous over throw.  So I disagree that Hoyer leads receivers with the ball better.  What he showed in the Dolphins game was the exact opposite of that. 

 

I just saw you said he lead them "more" not better.  Unfortunately, I still have to disagree because he didn't lead them more that game either.  Except for the overthrown interception & the passes he lead out the back of the endzone when we were trying to win the game. 

Not a Hoyer fan at all, but...

 

The EZ INT was not on him. It was a freak play, and all on Ebron. A TE especially doesn't let a guy 4 inches and 30+ lbs lighter wrestle a ball from him. 

 

The INT to the R sideline.... I think it was Reich that said it was miscommunication. Ebron was supposed to continue the route but instead stopped for a comeback or back shoulder. The one to Pascal was clearly all Hoyer.

 

Anyway, not sure why folks are surprised. Hoyer has a 5:3 TD to INT career ratio coming in. Folks said he was brought in to help more with mentoring, than playing.... 

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17 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Thanks. I hear what you're saying.

 

It just seems like many people don't want JB as starter because he does not have that WOW quality that Luck had or even Kelly may bring. JB was steady and was winning. The goal is to win. 

 

A small nuance to this if I may... 

 

The goal is to win consistently over an extended period of time. 

 

As an open question would people prefer say winning 1 SB, but not making the playoffs aside from that and being a pretty mediocre (not awful as then you'd at least have draft capital team), over say a 10 year period. 

 

Or would you take  10 year period where you compete year in year out, and you have the possibility of winning multiple SBs but no guarantee of one.

 

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8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Not a Hoyer fan at all, but...

 

The EZ INT was not on him. It was a freak play, and all on Ebron. A TE especially doesn't let a guy 4 inches and 30+ lbs lighter wrestle a ball from him. 

Agreed, bit of a freak play. 

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

The INT to the R sideline.... I think it was Reich that said it was miscommunication. Ebron was supposed to continue the route but instead stopped for a comeback or back shoulder. The one to Pascal was clearly all Hoyer.

It was one of those that on first viewing looks so awful that it just had to be a complete misunderstanding. You could argue that even then Brissett doesn't throw this pick as he wouldn't throw with anticipation... :stir:

 

 

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11 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Actually 2 of his interceptions were because he didn't lead the receivers.  Even the would be touchdown turned interception to Ebron was high and kinda behind him. Not out in front. His interception to Pascal was late and behind him.  We haven't seen JB throw one of those since week 2 against the Titans.  Hoyer was also behind to Ebron again on the first play of our final 4 plays. 

 

He was so scared of throwing another interception afterwards that he avoided the intermediate throws & started throwing deep fades & shots up the seam into double & triple coverage.  Oh yeah & his 3rd interception (actually the 2nd in order) was a horrendous over throw.  So I disagree that Hoyer leads receivers with the ball better.  What he showed in the Dolphins game was the exact opposite of that. 

 

I just saw you said he lead them "more" not better.  Unfortunately, I still have to disagree because he didn't lead them more that game either.  Except for the overthrown interception & the passes he lead out the back of the endzone when we were trying to win the game. 

 

I agree if we are talking about the Dolphins game (which he was horrible) 

 

The Steelers game was a different story. He was a different QB that game which was odd. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 7:05 AM, lollygagger8 said:

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2019/11/7/20950681/brian-hoyer-jacoby-brissett-and-the-art-of-throwing-receivers-open#518763337

 

I agree it's a small sample size, but Jacoby also didn't play that much in the Steelers game. 

I wrote this comment in the comment section because I believe it's true (as much as I hate giving props to Tom): 

 

Jacoby learned how to escape the pocket from Luck
He learned how command a huddle from Brady
Now he needs to learn anticipation from Hoyer

In this "we need everything right now" society, I think we all forget that Brissett really hasn’t played that much. He’ll get better.

 

Anyways, on with the story: 

 

In Brett Mock’s most recent Quick Reaction article, he ruffled some feathers when he wrote:

One final thought, if those who have been confused about the quarterback debate heading into this game don’t now understand the reason for the debate, I don’t really have much I can say.

Then he proceeded to say a lot.

His point wasn’t whether one QB is better than the other, but rather that they both have different strengths and weaknesses that makes it difficult to say which one would perform better on the current team.

It now comes down to the question of — would the ultra conservative, slow to get through progressions, mistake avoiding Brissett give the Colts a better chance than the more aggressive, more productive Hoyer.

Who knows? But the debate about whether Brissett is the long-term answer shouldn’t be difficult to understand at this point.

I’m not sure why there was so much blow-back to those fairly innocuous statements, but one specific point he made resonated with me:

Brian Hoyer showed . . . the ability to throw players open before they break on routes.

This has been my main knock on Jacoby Brissett. He tends to only throw to receivers that are already open, resulting in short throws. He seems hesitant to stretch the field.

 

 

Open up the link to read on. I included one pic from each QB from the article - you can see the rest here: 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2019/11/7/20950681/brian-hoyer-jacoby-brissett-and-the-art-of-throwing-receivers-open#518763337

 

 

 

 

JACOBY BRISSETT (4/5 59 yds, 0 TD, 0 INT)

Notice that on all of Brissett’s passes, the receiver is wiiiiiide open.

Pass 1 - 1st Qtr, 1st & 10 (Shotgun) J.Brissett pass short left to Z.Pascal to PIT 27 for 8 yards (S.Nelson).

No defender within 5 yards and that is the last pass attempt on this drive.

JB1x.png

 

 

Throwing to a wide open receiver is GOOD! Especially since all others were covered!!

az4XdSr.jpg

 

So he is supposed to throw open a different receiver?

 

Quote

 

BRIAN HOYER (3/5 39 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT)

Pass 1 - 2nd Qtr, 3rd & 11 (12:02) (Shotgun) B.Hoyer pass short middle to J.Doyle for 11 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Doyle was just starting his break and about to lose his defender when Hoyer starts his wind-up. I think this is a pass that Brissett eventually throws, just not nearly as early as Hoyer did.

BH1x.png

 

 

I watched all plays he points out in the article.  His next is this-

"Pass 2 - 1st Qtr, 1st & 10 (:50) (Shotgun) J.Brissett pass short left to J.Wilkins to IND 43 for 6 yards (S.Nelson, M.Fitzpatrick).

Big cushion on this throw as well."  then shows closeup of receiver.

 

Well, All 22 shows that was the only good choice too!

SiJVeFS.jpg

 

Then the guy dusts off a deep  pass because it was wiiiide open-

 

"Pass 3 - 1st Qtr, 2nd & 4 (:06) J.Brissett pass deep right to Z.Pascal pushed ob at PIT 39 for 18 yards (J.Haden).

Wide open. Big gain."

 

But, that was not target #1, JB threw it after seeing WR1 covered, found WR2 for gain as below-

JB hits his drop looking left- 2 targets, nobody open!  (maybe flat check down is). 

rvffy7W.jpg

Hitches and looks right, spots Pascal separating and fires to the right.

3n4ESOM.jpg

You can see the ball (speck) at the Pitt 48 in the white sideline area.

SuISfdt.jpg

Ball arrives

oBc0FIs.jpg

 

Hey wow folks! A progression!  and a deep throw!

 

At this point I stopped, critique the guy, sure, but make sure it is true. And I didn't go looking for the 'bad' throws Hoyer had. I'm not that way. OTOH, this is a reason I have mentioned before that I don't trust those that post a pic and states that proves a narrative.  Fortunately the author gave me the opportunity to fire up a Coaches Film session (All 22) on my NFL Game Pass/laptop and see a couple of these plays for myself in video.

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On 11/11/2019 at 9:22 AM, BigQungus said:

I truly wonder what you watch.

 

He admits to not watching all the games and not being very knowledgeable about what he's commenting on.  He just feels the need to chime in, so take what he says with a BIG grain of salt.  haha

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2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Throwing to a wide open receiver is GOOD! Especially since all others were covered!!

az4XdSr.jpg

 

So he is supposed to throw open a different receiver?

 

 

 

I watched all plays he points out in the article.  His next is this-

"Pass 2 - 1st Qtr, 1st & 10 (:50) (Shotgun) J.Brissett pass short left to J.Wilkins to IND 43 for 6 yards (S.Nelson, M.Fitzpatrick).

Big cushion on this throw as well."  then shows closeup of receiver.

 

Well, All 22 shows that was the only good choice too!

SiJVeFS.jpg

 

Then the guy dusts off a deep  pass because it was wiiiide open-

 

"Pass 3 - 1st Qtr, 2nd & 4 (:06) J.Brissett pass deep right to Z.Pascal pushed ob at PIT 39 for 18 yards (J.Haden).

Wide open. Big gain."

 

But, that was not target #1, JB threw it after seeing WR1 covered, found WR2 for gain as below-

JB hits his drop looking left- 2 targets, nobody open!  (maybe flat check down is). 

rvffy7W.jpg

Hitches and looks right, spots Pascal separating and fires to the right.

3n4ESOM.jpg

You can see the ball (speck) at the Pitt 48 in the white sideline area.

SuISfdt.jpg

Ball arrives

oBc0FIs.jpg

 

Hey wow folks! A progression!  and a deep throw!

 

At this point I stopped, critique the guy, sure, but make sure it is true. And I didn't go looking for the 'bad' throws Hoyer had. I'm not that way. OTOH, this is a reason I have mentioned before that I don't trust those that post a pic and states that proves a narrative.  Fortunately the author gave me the opportunity to fire up a Coaches Film session (All 22) on my NFL Game Pass/laptop and see a couple of these plays for myself in video.

 

 

Thanks for doing this.

 

Hopefully Brissett will start throwing more INTs  (like Hoyer). That will prove that he is learning how to throw receivers open (like Hoyer can).

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1 hour ago, egg said:

 

Thanks for doing this.

 

Hopefully Brissett will start throwing more INTs  (like Hoyer). That will prove that he is learning how to throw receivers open (like Hoyer can).

 

I just want to see what's real.  Hopefully Hoyer CAN teach JB7 to 'read' how the D aligns and leverages the receivers, thus (if receiver also reads it right and breaks the correct way) anticipating better and releasing the ball earlier on timing type patterns.

 

Supposedly, those off field things- Film study, seeing D tendencies from sideline, etc. are what he excels at.  OTOH, I also know Hoyer has lost his 10 starts/finish games in a row.  Ten.  But the original article (Brett Mock, not the Troy Russell one) surmised after the Pitt game (just 1 game)

 

"One final thought, if those who have been confused about the quarterback debate heading into this game don’t now understand the reason for the debate, I don’t really have much I can say.

Outside of the big mistake that led to a pick-six, Brian Hoyer showed superior vision, patience and presence in the pocket, and the ability to throw players open before they break on routes.

His three passing touchdowns almost undoubtedly wouldn’t have existed with Brissett in the game."

 

During the ugly 2017 season at his worst, JB7 lost 6 in a row.  However, he is 6 wins and 2 losses since then (in games started and finished). I await Brett Mock's quick reaction on Hoyer in the Dolphin fiasco... I mean game.  :(

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7 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

I agree if we are talking about the Dolphins game (which he was horrible) 

 

The Steelers game was a different story. He was a different QB that game which was odd. 

Hoyer is kinda like Fitzmagic.  If the game is important and he has to prepare for it as the starter, he will struggle.  But if he has to sub in mid game he can perform without the same pressure.  It's easier to come in as the backup.  Nobody expects much from him.  But when he's listed as the starter and the lights are on you for an entire weak... He can't perform the same.  Especially in a game he was supposed to win.

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12 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

Agreed, bit of a freak play. 

It was one of those that on first viewing looks so awful that it just had to be a complete misunderstanding. You could argue that even then Brissett doesn't throw this pick as he wouldn't throw with anticipation... :stir:

 

But it's the truth lol. Instead of those shots, he'll force it to a well covered TY. I get that everyone wants to bag on Hoyer, but even though I don't like him, there was more going on.... If Ebron mans up and catches that ball, we win. If AV makes his XP, we're tied at minimum. Hoyer is what he is, but not getting reps last week was a bonehead call from Reich. Like I said post game, there was so much "bad" to go around. 

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7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

But it's the truth lol. Instead of those shots, he'll force it to a well covered TY. I get that everyone wants to bag on Hoyer, but even though I don't like him, there was more going on.... If Ebron mans up and catches that ball, we win. If AV makes his XP, we're tied at minimum. Hoyer is what he is, but not getting reps last week was a bonehead call from Reich. Like I said post game, there was so much "bad" to go around. 

That INT by Hoyer to Ebron wasn't his fault but overall Hoyer played bad after that. Maybe that pick bothered him mentally, I have no idea. Hoyer made so many bad throws that JB wouldn't of, that is my opinion. I am not trying to bag on Hoyer but he played bad.

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7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That INT by Hoyer to Ebron wasn't his fault but overall Hoyer played bad after that. Maybe that pick bothered him mentally, I have no idea. Hoyer made so many bad throws that JB wouldn't of, that is my opinion. I am not trying to bag on Hoyer but he played bad.

My expectations have always been very low for Hoyer lol, so I'm just not surprised. What surprises me is the game plan itself, and the coaching decisions last week. Truly awful. 

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7 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That INT by Hoyer to Ebron wasn't his fault but overall Hoyer played bad after that. Maybe that pick bothered him mentally, I have no idea. Hoyer made so many bad throws that JB wouldn't of, that is my opinion. I am not trying to bag on Hoyer but he played bad.

 

The good thing about Hoyer.....

 

... is you know exactly what you've got with him.

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I don’t understand anyone that had hope for Hoyer. Have you people never watched him play before? I remember during the Peyton Manning days when we used to play teams with terrible QBs like Sage Rosenfels, knowing no matter what they were going to mess up and give the game away. Hoyer gives me the same exact feeling, except he plays for my team now.

 

I’ve lost respect for the opinions of anyone who really thought Hoyer wasn’t going to mess % up. 

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3 hours ago, colt18 said:

I don’t understand anyone that had hope for Hoyer. Have you people never watched him play before? I remember during the Peyton Manning days when we used to play teams with terrible QBs like Sage Rosenfels, knowing no matter what they were going to mess up and give the game away. Hoyer gives me the same exact feeling, except he plays for my team now.

 

I’ve lost respect for the opinions of anyone who really thought Hoyer wasn’t going to mess % up. 

 

Things to consider:

 

1) Hoyer was a late decision because of circumstance, and for all that you want to do him down he has been in demand in the league and managed to have a decent enough career as a solid enough back up level QB. Rumour was the Pats let him go for the cap to let him test the market and would have had interest in bringing him back. Then our situation happened and they also found they might have a good young QB.

 

2) You hope that you backup never need play, to this point in time there were no concerns about Brissett's durability. You then factor in what else he can bring, and again, given the situation, being able to play mentor to Brissett if very valuable. Especially given some of the brains he's sat in rooms with. 

 

3) Say what you will... we were in positions to win both those games. Doesn't mean to say he played well, but he was truly awful. We've seen worse not all that long ago.

 

Who else would you have picked up off the street, and don't say Kaepernick. Even if that ship hadn't sailed with the settlement, I don't think the Colts, of all teams, would be willing to go near the non-football factors. I have a soft spot for him from the SB run with SF (my best friend is a SF fan), but I don't think we'll ever see him play again. 

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