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The Art of throwing receivers open Brissett, Hoyer Stampede Blue


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15 minutes ago, stitches said:

This is something I've been saying for a while too... This is such a horrible argument and misrepresentation of what exactly Luck's strengths and weaknesses were.

 

Players like Brissett, like Mariota, etc. hold onto the ball because they have trouble eliminating and isolating reads in the progression and going through the progressions. Luck never had that problem, in fact it was one of his strongest suits. Luck played in an Air Coryell system that relied heavily on deep routes that develop slowly. And he was relied to do that PRECISELY BECAUSE he was able to make full field progression reads, with bullets flying all around him!! In fact, this was such a big positive in his game that they gave him that responsibility from day 1. Most rookie QBs, even the ones that can throw deep are eased into a role like that, because the throw itself is the easiest part of throwing deep - navigating the pocket, reading the field and anticipating when to release the ball were much harder and Luck was amazing at it. Luck had the freedom and responsibility to do it from game 1 in his rookie year. 

 

This is the reason in the last year of his Air Coryell tenure he had about 40% of his drop backs being 7 step drops. This was about 230 of his 580 something dropbacks. Just for reference - most QBs in the league have to play 10 years in the league to get as many 7 step drop backs as Luck was getting in a single season.

 

The problem with Luck was that he sometimes held the ball too long because of his belief that he can make the play instead of taking a lost down and throwing it away. He was pushing his luck way too much and in some situations it cost us. Luck was holding the ball to make plays(and was making a ton of them), Brissett is holding the ball because he cannot see the throws he needs to make. 

 

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It's also fair to say that his ball placement on short, quick throws, wasn't as accurate as it should have been. But he didn't play in an offense that emphasized short, quick throws, so it's hard to see what difference it would have made.

 

Still, when discussing JB, there's no reason to malign AL. It's a completely different topic, and one I don't really care about because AL isn't playing QB for us anymore. 

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Pittsburgh was fortunate last week, JB got injured (TY didn't play) and we gave them a lot of gifts with the pick 6 by Hoyer, committing stupid penalty's, missing FG's, etc.. By the way Darius Leonard and Malik Hooked didn't play against KC so I can play the injury excuse card as well.

 

Oh sure in KC yeah excuse game.  BUT JB HAD NO POSITIVE EFFECT ON THAT GAME AND WAS ESSENTIALLY SCHEMED OUT OF IT IN THE 2ND HALF.  He threw a terrible INT ala Hoyers this week and did nothing.

 

This is a thread about the QB.

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26 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

That is funny. My wife who loves the Colts and wouldn't miss a game but really doesn't know football said when Hoyer came in, " Who is this guy and where has he been? He is passing all over the field. " Thought that was hilarious.

 

Seemed pretty obvious man.

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3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

200.gif

 

It's also fair to say that his ball placement on short, quick throws, wasn't as accurate as it should have been. But he didn't play in an offense that emphasized short, quick throws, so it's hard to see what difference it would have made.

 

Still, when discussing JB, there's no reason to malign AL. It's a completely different topic, and one I don't really care about because AL isn't playing QB for us anymore. 

Agreed. And besides it like comparing a Lamborghini to a Chevy Malibu. Notice, they both can get you there.  

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3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah when he threw that pick 6 I was laughing all the way down my hallway lmao 

 

Were you laughing at JBs same type of throw v KC?  IF so, good your consistent.  If not, you must have a bias that you may or may not be aware of.

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44 minutes ago, stitches said:

This is something I've been saying for a while too... This is such a horrible argument and misrepresentation of what exactly Luck's strengths and weaknesses were.

 

Players like Brissett, like Mariota, etc. hold onto the ball because they have trouble eliminating and isolating reads in the progression and going through the progressions. Luck never had that problem, in fact it was one of his strongest suits. Luck played in an Air Coryell system that relied heavily on deep routes that develop slowly. And he was relied to do that PRECISELY BECAUSE he was able to make full field progression reads, with bullets flying all around him!! In fact, this was such a big positive in his game that they gave him that responsibility from day 1. Most rookie QBs, even the ones that can throw deep are eased into a role like that, because the throw itself is the easiest part of throwing deep - navigating the pocket, reading the field and anticipating when to release the ball were much harder and Luck was amazing at it. Luck had the freedom and responsibility to do it from game 1 in his rookie year. 

 

This is the reason in the last year of his Air Coryell tenure he had about 40% of his drop backs being 7 step drops. This was about 230 of his 580 something dropbacks. Just for reference - most QBs in the league have to play 10 years in the league to get as many 7 step drop backs as Luck was getting in a single season.

 

The problem with Luck was that he sometimes held the ball too long because of his belief that he can make the play instead of taking a lost down and throwing it away. He was pushing his luck way too much and in some situations it cost us. Luck was holding the ball to make plays(and was making a ton of them), Brissett is holding the ball because he cannot see the throws he needs to make. 

I honestly dont know how people still argue with you @Superman and @SteelCityColt 

 

seriously just blows my mind lol

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21 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yes he was great.  But the bad things that happened to the O and his body were also his fault too. 

 

You originally said you weren't here on the forum at that time, but it now sounds like you know what the pervasive atmosphere was.  Not sure where you're coming from, so I'll stop talking about Luck as to not get dragged into something.  

 

I think our DBs stink.  All of them, in terms of making plays.  They may get better, but as a unit, they are presently a drag on the team.  The WRs stink, they may get better, but as a unit they are a drag on the team.  The DTs stink, they may get better, cough, but as a unit they are a drag on the team.   Even if the O gets close to the red zone, or scores a TD, our kicker is starting to stink.

 

Where's this great roster JB has to work with, other than the Oline?

?? What does the really bad defense Luck had have to do with the not so bad defense Brissett has?  Neither Luck nor Brissett had some elite wide receiver core.  If Brissett's WRs are worse than Luck's, it's not really by such a margin that we should expect some huge dropoff in Brissett's performance compared to Luck.

 

But again, what does Luck's QB play have to do with Brissett?  The point of ANYONE criticizing Brissett is, is he good enough to not be replaced?  The answers to my last paragraph and all the ones everyone else seems to be raising is irrelevant to whether we should expend resources on a QB.  We had Luck and still traded for one.  Dorsett was a player we were all sick of, but it was still a former first round pick.  And don't act for a second that people around here wouldn't bash the ever loving daylights out of both Ballard and Reich if Dorsett went to NE and set the league on fire.  People would have.  And it would persist today still had it worked out that way.

 

No player is perfect, but people seem to get awfully touchy when someone criticizes a guy they like.  Nevermind suggesting that he's not the long term answer.  I don't get it.  The foundational truth about building a roster in the NFL is that you try to get better at every position, every year, and in every way possible - as long as it makes sense economically in the short term and the long term.  We should be doing that no matter who is on our roster.

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2 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 LMAO
  Our last QB held on to the ball until last season. It got him killed time and again.
 He held on to it waiting for his receivers to come out of their breaks then using his over the top (often sailing) fast ball to try to get in in there in time.
 The high and late passes got guys killed and caused many so called "drops", and Int's.
 After the first couple games settling in, Brissett has shown a better short to mid-range accurate touch than our last QB ever had. 
 No doubt he must get better. He and his receivers need more experience together being on the same page reading coverages.
 After another training camp and another 1/2 season will be a fairer time to know what he can be.

i agree, so called throwing them open results in a lot of picks, 

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1 minute ago, OffensivelyPC said:

?? What does the really bad defense Luck had have to do with the not so bad defense Brissett has?  Neither Luck nor Brissett had some elite wide receiver core.  If Brissett's WRs are worse than Luck's, it's not really by such a margin that we should expect some huge dropoff in Brissett's performance compared to Luck.

 

But again, what does Luck's QB play have to do with Brissett?  The point of ANYONE criticizing Brissett is, is he good enough to not be replaced?  The answers to my last paragraph and all the ones everyone else seems to be raising is irrelevant to whether we should expend resources on a QB.  We had Luck and still traded for one.  It was a player we were all sick of, but it was still a former first round pick.  And don't act for a second that people around here wouldn't bash the ever loving daylights out of both Ballard and Reich if Dorsett went to NE and set the league on fire.  People would have.  And it would persist today still had it worked out that way.

 

No player is perfect, but people seem to get awfully touchy when someone criticizes a guy they like.  Nevermind suggesting that he's not the long term answer.  I don't get it.  The foundational truth about building a roster in the NFL is that you try to get better at every position, every year, and in every way possible - as long as it makes sense economically in the short term and the long term.  

 

Dorset is a 6th round type of guy production wise.  

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4 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Come on 2006, I thought you were a true Colt fan!

I was being sarcastic. I like Hoyer and hated that pick 6. Right after he threw it, I even said to myself I bet we lose now somehow. I don't care who we have in at QB as long as we win. I just think JB is the best guy we have on the roster. If Chad Kelly started on Sunday and threw for 300 yards and we won I would be praising him bigtime. 

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I was being sarcastic. I like Hoyer and hated that pick 6. Right after he threw it, I even said to myself I bet we lose now somehow. I don't care who we have in at QB as long as we win. I just JB is the best guy we have in the roster. If Chad Kelly started on Sunday and threw for 300 yards and we won I would be praising him bigtime. 

 

 

Me too.  I still have no opinion of Kelly.  When I went to camp the day after Luck sat out the first time.  I remember thinking there is no back up QB other than JB out here.

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Just now, Nickster said:

 

Dorset is a 6th round type of guy production wise.  

I understand that.  He was still a 1st round pick on his rookie deal.  Not to mention he was going on his 3rd year, which was traditionally around the time a WR would show his greatest growth.  The 2014 WR class seemed to be a big change in thinking regarding "what we know" about WRs.  I still tend to follow the 3 year window rule, but the exceptions are less of an exception it seems these days.

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10 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I honestly dont know how people still argue with you @Superman and @SteelCityColt 

 

seriously justvblows my mind lol

Thanks but nobody should be beyond being argued/disagreed with. None of us is perfect and we all have have some weird opinions that might need correcting. I always welcome discussions with well reasoned arguments from anybody here. I know I will be wrong on some things and if I am I'd prefer to be wrong for as little time as possible(i.e. people to persuade me on my misapprehensions) 

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Just now, OffensivelyPC said:

I understand that.  He was still a 1st round pick on his rookie deal.  Not to mention he was going on his 3rd year, which was traditionally around the time a WR would show his greatest growth.  The 2014 WR class seemed to be a big change in thinking regarding "what we know" about WRs.  I still tend to follow the 3 year window rule, but the exceptions are less of an exception it seems these days.

 

OK man yes.  The Colts got a backup QB for Dorsett who sucks.

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11 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I honestly dont know how people still argue with you @Superman and @SteelCityColt 

 

seriously justvblows my mind lol

Who is arguing with them? Most agree with those 2 about 90% of the time as I do too. Just because now and then someone doesn't agree with them doesn't mean they are arguing with them.

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4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Thanks but nobody should be beyond being argued/disagreed with. None of us is perfect and we all have have some weird opinions that might need correcting. I always welcome discussions with well reasoned arguments from anybody here. I know I will be wrong on some things and if I am I'd prefer to be wrong for as little time as possible(i.e. people to persuade me on my misapprehensions) 

true but man 9 times outta 10 y'all  are right lol

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Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Who is arguing with them? Most agree with those 2 about 90% of the time as I do too. Just because now and then someone doesn't agree with them doesn't mean they are arguing with them.

not here in this topic I just mean in general. and yes many continue to argue about JB with them every day you don't obviously but you aren't a blind troll either.

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2 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

not here in this topic I just mean in general. and yes many continue to argue about JB with them every day you don't obviously but you aren't a blind troll either.

Yeah I guess a few do, I just say to them that I think JB is above average (which is reasonable) but I see the stats they provide to show JB's flaws as well. I am not sold on JB but I do think he is above average, JMO.

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14 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

?? What does the really bad defense Luck had have to do with the not so bad defense Brissett has?  Neither Luck nor Brissett had some elite wide receiver core.  If Brissett's WRs are worse than Luck's, it's not really by such a margin that we should expect some huge dropoff in Brissett's performance compared to Luck.

 

But again, what does Luck's QB play have to do with Brissett?  The point of ANYONE criticizing Brissett is, is he good enough to not be replaced?  The answers to my last paragraph and all the ones everyone else seems to be raising is irrelevant to whether we should expend resources on a QB.  We had Luck and still traded for one.  Dorsett was a player we were all sick of, but it was still a former first round pick.  And don't act for a second that people around here wouldn't bash the ever loving daylights out of both Ballard and Reich if Dorsett went to NE and set the league on fire.  People would have.  And it would persist today still had it worked out that way.

 

No player is perfect, but people seem to get awfully touchy when someone criticizes a guy they like.  Nevermind suggesting that he's not the long term answer.  I don't get it.  The foundational truth about building a roster in the NFL is that you try to get better at every position, every year, and in every way possible - as long as it makes sense economically in the short term and the long term.  We should be doing that no matter who is on our roster.

Trying to keep the conversation in the present day, and not wanting it to drift into historical GM comparisons. 

 

The "roster", IMO, is the level of play JB has had to play with thus far.

 

Lucks roster talent may have been capped out at its max.  JB's roster talent may be young and ascending into something much better than what Luck ever had.  But comparing the level of play from each unit each QB is playing (played) with, measuring JBs "roster" through 8 games, is there a huge difference in the quality of play in the overall units other than the oline?

 

Even simply talking about the same players.  Were TY and AV better then than they are now?

 

I do think JB has benefited from much better coaching.  No doubt.

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1 hour ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I honestly dont know how people still argue with you @Superman and @SteelCityColt 

 

seriously justvblows my mind lol

Thank you for the implied compliment but, like everyone, the vast majority of what I post is only my opinion. I do try and make it as informed as possible but that’s it.

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Who is arguing with them? Most agree with those 2 about 90% of the time as I do too. Just because now and then someone doesn't agree with them doesn't mean they are arguing with them.

 

Exactly, it’s a minority on either side who aren’t willing to engage in a honest conversation, but they can often be the “loudest” posters.

 

We don’t always agree 100%, but I enjoy the back and forth because is constructive and done with respect. What people often forget is that respect is earned by how you conduct yourself on here. We all post stupid stuff now and then, but doubling down aggressively on it, or just plain ignoring when you get called on it, makes you look at bit trollish IMO. Do you want an actual conversation, or attention/reaction?
 

Not only would it be boring if we all agreed all the time, but I wouldn’t have learned half as much as I have. 

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36 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

OK man yes.  The Colts got a backup QB for Dorsett who sucks.

Huh?  I think you've missed the entire point I was trying to make, which was that we used resources to acquire Brissett.  The point about bringing Dorsett's draft capital into the conversation was yeah, poor production, but his 1st round pedigree plus the fact he was going into his 3rd year, suggest the Patriots were trading for Dorsett on the hope that they could get more out of him than we ever did.

 

I don't care how anyone values him, the fact was, he had value, and we traded a player with value for Brissett. 

 

Everyone is so caught up in this stupid argument about how JB is "the guy" or not.  My point was simply, it doesn't matter whether he is or he isn't, he isn't perfect.  So if the opportunity to improve at the QB position presented itself, we would be smart to do that.  Whether it's using draft capital (high or low) or trade an undesirable asset for one.  Don't make it into something that it's not.  Who "won" the Brissett/Dorsett trade is not relevant to the point I was making.  Dorsett being "6th round production level" is not relevant to the point I was making.

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We’d be in the same spot with Luck. It’s always gloom and doom after a lose. I hope no one says Luck threw his receivers open. He had the same problem is article is implying Brissett has. We haven’t had a guy to do so since Peyton a Manning. 

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I'm sorry I missed when Hoyer turned into Kurt Warner and threw for 400 yards against the Steelers.  So please for all these people (and their girlfriends or wives) who saw Hoyer lighting up the scoreboard:  how many yards did he throw for?  And what was his completion percentage?  Also how many of his yards were yac?  Because I'm expecting his numbers to put JB's numbers vs the Texans to shame.  Especially since we haven't seen such amazing QBing all year long...

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2 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Huh?  I think you've missed the entire point I was trying to make, which was that we used resources to acquire Brissett.  The point about bringing Dorsett's draft capital into the conversation was yeah, poor production, but his 1st round pedigree plus the fact he was going into his 3rd year, suggest the Patriots were trading for Dorsett on the hope that they could get more out of him than we ever did.

 

I don't care how anyone values him, the fact was, he had value, and we traded a player with value for Brissett. 

 

Everyone is so caught up in this stupid argument about how JB is "the guy" or not.  My point was simply, it doesn't matter whether he is or he isn't, he isn't perfect.  So if the opportunity to improve at the QB position presented itself, we would be smart to do that.  Whether it's using draft capital (high or low) or trade an undesirable asset for one.  Don't make it into something that it's not.  Who "won" the Brissett/Dorsett trade is relevant to the point I was making.  Dorsett being "6th round production level" is not relevant to the point I was making.

 

It's cool man.  I'm just saying I don't think either team was like "Oh we have to get this guy."  

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4 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I'm sorry I missed when Hoyer turned into Kurt Warner and threw for 400 yards against the Steelers.  So please for all these people (and their girlfriends or wives) who saw Hoyer lighting up the scoreboard:  how many yards did he throw for?  And what was his completion percentage?  Also how many of his yards were yac?  Because I'm expecting his numbers to put JB's numbers vs the Texans to shame.  Especially since we haven't seen such amazing QBing all year long...

 

Did you notice that guys seemed to be open?  I did.  That one dude's wife did. 

 

You didn't I guess?  

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2 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I'm sorry I missed when Hoyer turned into Kurt Warner and threw for 400 yards against the Steelers.  So please for all these people (and their girlfriends or wives) who saw Hoyer lighting up the scoreboard:  how many yards did he throw for?  And what was his completion percentage?  Also how many of his yards were yac?  Because I'm expecting his numbers to put JB's numbers vs the Texans to shame.

 

Well he did throw for 3 TD's against in 3qts. JB threw 3 TD in two of the 8 games he's started. His completion percentage was higher than every game for JB minus Houston. Higher QBR than every JB game minus Houston. All this against a way better secondary than JB has faced, maybe except DEN

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1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

Did you notice that guys seemed to be open?  I did.  That one dude's wife did. 

 

You didn't I guess?  

What guys?  Supposedly, JB only throws to guys if they're wide open.  So obviously guys are open every game or he wouldn't complete any passes...  So which is it?  So maybe you, that one dude and his wife only see what you want to see.  I acknowledge Hoyer made a couple big time throws.  Throws we've seen JB make this season.  So again clarify the plays for me that Hoyer exhibited herculean feats of QBing that JB hasn't?  And tell me why such herculean QBing didn't light up the stat sheet and scoreboard?

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1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We would be better with Luck I agree. I doubt anyone would say otherwise. I am just saying with Luck we would still probably be 5-3, maybe 6-2 right now. I would say 6-2. We should win this week to get to 6-3.


There was the whole "Brissett's a better fit than Luck" narrative that's gotten some push around here. Which isn't the exact same thing, but is basically a roundabout way of saying we're better with JB.

But yeah, agreed with your general point. We can't know for sure, but I doubt we'd be undefeated with Luck at the moment.

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You are making my point for me Smoke. Thanks.

 

Houston is one of the weakest pass defenses in football and Pitt is top tier accordking to statistics.

 

And Brissett had a really good game against them.  

 

I am really surprised people didn't notice how good that Hoyer looked in that game.  

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Why does everyone have to put a asterisk on JB when he does something good. You play who is in your schedule. Sometimes you play better defenses.

 

You are comparing a Ten year veteran to a guy who has 23 starts. Do you know how dumb that sounds.

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2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Why does everyone have to put a asterisk on JB when he does something good. You play who is in your schedule. Sometimes you play better defenses.

 

You are comparing a Ten year veteran to a guy who has 23 starts. Do you know how dumb that sounds.


Didn't you basically just put an asterik on Hoyer's performance by saying the Pitt secondary was trash?

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5 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:


Didn't you basically just put an asterik on Hoyer's performance by saying the Pitt secondary was trash?

No isn’t what I did. My point was we have no idea if Jacoby would of done the same thing.  He might of thrown that well also.

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2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

You are making my point for me.  Thanks.

 

 

Houston is one of the weakest pass defenses in football and Pitt is top tier accordking to statistics, so if one were going to have.

 

And Brissett had a really good game against them.  

If a QB is any good he will pick a part any weak secondary. That is nothing new. JB took advantage of a weak secondary because he is above average and was great that game. Who cares really, JB played bad against Denver because they have a great secondary but he still had a game winning drive. Tom Brady used to have some bad games when he played the Ravens because they had a great secondary, Peyton used to vs the Chargers too.

 

When JB plays good or great, why can't you and certain posters just say so. You and some others seem to never do, you along with a few just point to his flaws. That is why people like me get irritated at times. I don't mind people being critical of JB but if he plays well, his doubters should acknowledge it is all I say. He had great games vs the Falcons and vs the Texans. If Luck had the game vs the Texans that JB did, almost everyone on here would be saying Luck is best QB in the league.

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2 hours ago, Nickster said:

Was Luck not criticized on here?  I wasn't on the forum then, but my brother and I criticized him  a lot and I remember media too.

 

He was great though anyway.

Yes he was criticized on the forum for holding the ball too long and it was nice to see him change in reich's offensive system.  Luck was also criticized for not throwing receivers open, something he didn't do well last year either.

 

But like other poster's have said, Luck's faults have nothing to do with JB.  So to get my post back on topic, like others  I thought the offense looked better with Hoyer in the game.  But Hoyer has around 50 more starts and 8 seasons on JB, so he should look a bit better than a QB with 24 starts and 3 seasons who was thrown into a very tough situation.  overall I've been impressed with JB.  But I don't think he is the franchise QB for the future but that may change as the season progresses.

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7 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

 

Well he did throw for 3 TD's against in 3qts. JB threw 3 TD in two of the 8 games he's started. His completion percentage was higher than every game for JB minus Houston. Higher QBR than every JB game minus Houston. All this against a way better secondary than JB has faced, maybe except DEN

False.  JB's completion percentage and QBR per week:

Gm1 Chargers:  77% 66 QBR

Gm2 Titans:  61%  29 QBR

Gm3 Falcons: 76%  86 QBR

Gm4 Raiders 52%  46 QBR

Gm5 Chiefs  62%  32 QBR

Gm6  Texans  67%  74 QBR

Gm7  Broncos  60%  42 QBR

Gm8  Steelers  Incomplete game but was at 80% with a 40 QBR.  

 

Hoyer took over the Steelers game and completed 65%  and a 40 QBR.  It's when the JB haters lie is when I think it's y'all that have a hidden agenda.  Now show me how his percentage and QBR were better than JB's Chargers, Falcons, or Texans games?  His QBR was only better than 2 of JB's games.  Games he still managed to win by the way. 

 

I bet when Hoyer's QBR is below 40 you'll see mostly losses.  Why because he'll be a contributing factor to the losses.  JB for all his flaws won't screw the game away when he doesn't have it that day.  Give me JB over Hoyer.  And I like Hoyer a lot.  Glad we have him.  Sure JB can get better and needs to but to suggest what Hoyer just did is something amazing is untrue.  Give me wins over hollow or misleading stats.

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I am going to laugh so hard if we decide to move on from JB and end up in QB purgatory trying to find the guy.  There is no guarantee with any QB. There are not 32 franchise QB. If you end up with one it’s rare. There is a middle ground between elite and mediocre. You can win with a above average QB if you build a team around the QB. There isn’t a elite QB tree you just go pick one off of.

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