Nelson's collapse

[Moosejawcolt]

8 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

The o-line as a hole unit has taken a step back this year we made a mistake getting rid of that other coach it was working shouldn't have tried to fix it cause it wasn't broke.

Ummmm.......hard to assess if your assumption is truly a reality.  We had Luck last year.  That is a huge difference in the way a defense attacks our O line.  They're stacking the O line this year begging Brissett to beat us.  Teams were not stacking the O line last year begging Luck to beat him.  Brissett is not Luck so that changes everything

[JR Indy]

1 hour ago, dw49 said:

 

My post only was referring to the original poster that was dissing Nelson. No one else that I saw had an adverse post.

Cool doc, my apologies 

[HOZER]

1 hour ago, Mr.NotSoCreative said:

We might have 99 problems, but Nelson isnt one.

If you’re having troll problems I feel bad for you son.....

[EastStreet]

The OL is fine, but they do have to work harder this year with JB's time-to-throw (AL was top 10, JB is bottom 10), and also the increased box stacking due to the lack of respect JB is getting.

 

Could it be partly because of the coaching change, sure... but it's pretty obvious the JB impact.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Today Sirriani mentioned pass blocking isn’t just the 5 oline guys. He mentioned it’s everyone including TE, WR, and RB. I don’t think it’s all just the 5 oline guys. He talked about them not picking up blitzes * well. That would be on the RB, WR, and TE. Just like AV missing all these kicks isn’t all his fault the pass blocking isn’t all the front 5.

[King Colt]

Losing a game changes some people's view of the entire team for the entire year. Not blaming anyone because losing is a poisonous drug causing anxiety, depression and some agony. Recall this phrase,  "The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat."

[jameszeigler834]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Ummmm.......hard to assess if your assumption is truly a reality.  We had Luck last year.  That is a huge difference in the way a defense attacks our O line.  They're stacking the O line this year begging Brissett to beat us.  Teams were not stacking the O line last year begging Luck to beat him.  Brissett is not Luck so that changes everything

Ya but this line when it got healthy didn't look this bad last year at any point during that win streak with the old o-line coach this new * that Frank is so high on couldn't even fix denvers garbage line.

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

10 hours ago, HOZER said:

If you’re having troll problems I feel bad for you son.....

Lyrics to an old rap song, joke just like this thread. Chill out son.

[HOZER]

2 hours ago, Mr.NotSoCreative said:

Lyrics to an old rap song, joke just like this thread. Chill out son.

 I was also joking.....you must not know the rest of the lyrics to that “old” rap song, son, lol.
 

 

[Myles]

11 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Ya but this line when it got healthy didn't look this bad last year at any point during that win streak with the old o-line coach this new * that Frank is so high on couldn't even fix denvers garbage line.

Luck and Brissett are different.   

[DougDew]

A few thoughts:

 

So the oline is worse this year because we don't have a$125mil franchise QB?

 

I get it, but then that logic says in order to justify devoting high draft picks to an oline, we need to invest a lot of capital in a QB.

 

Also, JBs hold time might be longer than Luck's was last year, and that accounts for the "drop off" in oline play.  But Luck's hold time during the Chud years  was some of the highest in the NFL, but nobody ever used that fact to give that oline excuses.  They just pounded on the quality of the oline, but now its different I guess.

 

What is the proper balance between oline talent and QB talent?  

[DiogoZ]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

A few thoughts:

 

So the oline is worse this year because we don't have a$125mil franchise QB?

 

I get it, but then that logic says in order to justify devoting high draft picks to an oline, we need to invest a lot of capital in a QB.

 

Also, JBs hold time might be longer than Luck's was last year, and that accounts for the "drop off" in oline play.  But Luck's hold time during the Chud years  was some of the highest in the NFL, but nobody ever used that fact to give that oline excuses.  They just pounded on the quality of the oline, but now its different I guess.

 

What is the proper balance between oline talent and QB talent?  

 

The point is that with Chud's offense, almost all passing plays were long developing routes. In Reich's offense, many passing plays have quicker routes for the QB to throw. Last year Luck got the ball off quickly, and since the system is the same, Brissett is holding longer by his own account.

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, DiogoZ said:

 

The point is that with Chud's offense, almost all passing plays were long developing routes. In Reich's offense, many passing plays have quicker routes for the QB to throw. Last year Luck got the ball off quickly, and since the system is the same, Brissett is holding longer by his own account.

I know.  Whether its by his own account or by design, how long the QB holds the ball impacts how the oline looks.  What's the solution?  Give up picks this spring to draft a rookie college QB?

 

I don't like the idea that we have to build a team like Madden in order to get high enough quality in every area to avoid massive complaints about something. 

 

A franchise QB, a #6 pick at G, a #22 at LT, and a #18 at C, is simply not a sustainable formula for building a team considering there are an additional 18 spots to fill just for the starters.

[dw49]

13 hours ago, JR Indy said:

Cool doc, my apologies 

 

we're good

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

1 hour ago, HOZER said:

 I was also joking.....you must not know the rest of the lyrics to that “old” rap song, son, lol.
 

 

Sure do, might be showing our age lol.

[DougDew]

Not sure why @aaron11 thought my post was funny.

 

What type of QB do we need in order to not get complaints about the Oline?, which was the gist of my post.

[Dark Superman]

On 11/3/2019 at 9:17 PM, Ne-Ca-Higher said:

Nelson's failure to hold ground against Heyward cost Brissett and the team.  Several times this year linemen and even linebackers have gotten the better of him one on one.  Is he hurt?  Was he tired?  If not, he better strengthen those legs or work on his footwork and lean.  He's not the guy we expect to be bull rushed like that.

Parris Campbell stumbling over his own feet on a play he would've scored a TD is who you should be blaming.

[Four2itus]

The only collapsing Nelson is doing is when he falls on a player. 

[King Colt]

"Nelson's Collapse" Gotta luv it.

[NewColtsFan]

16 hours ago, DougDew said:

A few thoughts:

 

So the oline is worse this year because we don't have a$125mil franchise QB?

 

I get it, but then that logic says in order to justify devoting high draft picks to an oline, we need to invest a lot of capital in a QB.

 

Also, JBs hold time might be longer than Luck's was last year, and that accounts for the "drop off" in oline play.  But Luck's hold time during the Chud years  was some of the highest in the NFL, but nobody ever used that fact to give that oline excuses.  They just pounded on the quality of the oline, but now its different I guess.

 

What is the proper balance between oline talent and QB talent?  

 

Doug....    I'm going to respond to a couple of posts of yours in this thread.    Not trying to give you a hard time, nor am I stalking you.    I was scrolling through this thread and came across your posts.

 

This is the first...    No, the OL is not worse soley because we don't have an expensive franchise QB.    We're also dealing with Glow, who is clearly playing worse for unknown reasons.   And Smith is still learning OT on the job.   Also, we've got a new OL coach, teaching new techniques and that is often a slow process.   So...   all of the above combine to produce OL performance that is not as good as it was the last 10 or so games of last season (plus playoffs).

 

The issue of Luck holding on to the ball too long was often a discussion point as to the number of sacks he took, AND to the number of hits he took.    He was first in the NFL in those categories his first 4-5 years.   And whoever was second was a distant second.    I know it was a constant talking point for @Superman as it was for me as well.   And a number of other posters made it a regular talking point.    I would say by the time Grigson was fired, it was accepted conventional wisdom here that Luck was as much to blame for his sacks/hits as was the very poor OL he was stuck with.    I'm sorry you don't remember that.

 

There is more to talk about....   but I will in other posts....

 

[NewColtsFan]

16 hours ago, DougDew said:

I know.  Whether its by his own account or by design, how long the QB holds the ball impacts how the oline looks.  What's the solution?  Give up picks this spring to draft a rookie college QB?

 

I don't like the idea that we have to build a team like Madden in order to get high enough quality in every area to avoid massive complaints about something. 

 

A franchise QB, a #6 pick at G, a #22 at LT, and a #18 at C, is simply not a sustainable formula for building a team considering there are an additional 18 spots to fill just for the starters.

 

I'm not sure why you believe this,  but I believe it's false.

 

Just look at Dallas...

 

LT Tyrann Smith is a high first round pick.  Taken 11th overall.

LG Connor Williams is a 2nd round pick.     Taken in the 50's.

C    Travis Frederick is a 1st round pick.       Taken 30th or 31st.

RG  Zack Martin is a 1st round pick.              Taken 15th.

RT  Lael Collins was a coveted FA.                  Is being paid top RT $$

 

Remember,  Ballard only select one of the Colts three 1st round picks -- Nelson.   The other two were taken by two other GM's,  Grigson (Kelly) and Polian (AC).      But Ballard has stated he believes you win with the OL and the DL.   So, he's going to invest high picks in both lines.  Expect it.    You can still fill in other spots with draft picks from Day 2 and 3.   

 

Will Ballard someday decide Brissett is not the guy to lead the Colts?   Maybe.   I have no idea.   But he'll do what he has to do to find a guy he believes in.   All good GM's do.    Right now it's Jacoby.   I believe he'll get better.   This year and next year.    Will that be enough?   Don't know.

But I believe in Ballard.    He's given me no reason not to. 

 

By the way,  I hope someday you'll come around on Nelson.   

[DougDew]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not sure why you believe this,  but I believe it's false.

 

Just look at Dallas...

 

LT Tyrann Smith is a high first round pick.  Taken 11th overall.

LG Connor Williams is a 2nd round pick.     Taken in the 50's.

C    Travis Frederick is a 1st round pick.       Taken 30th or 31st.

RG  Zack Martin is a 1st round pick.              Taken 15th.

RT  Lael Collins was a coveted FA.                  Is being paid top RT $$

 

Remember,  Ballard only select one of the Colts three 1st round picks -- Nelson.   The other two were taken by two other GM's,  Grigson (Kelly) and Polian (AC).      But Ballard has stated he believes you win with the OL and the DL.   So, he's going to invest high picks in both lines.  Expect it.    You can still fill in other spots with draft picks from Day 2 and 3.   

 

Will Ballard someday decide Brissett is not the guy to lead the Colts?   Maybe.   I have no idea.   But he'll do what he has to do to find a guy he believes in.   All good GM's do.    Right now it's Jacoby.   I believe he'll get better.   This year and next year.    Will that be enough?   Don't know.

But I believe in Ballard.    He's given me no reason not to. 

 

By the way,  I hope someday you'll come around on Nelson.   

You're talking about a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter.

 

First of all, I'm fine with the oline and have no complaints, including Nelson. All I'm pointing out is that there is a tone of the thread where a recent (perceived) dropoff of the oline performance is excused by mentioning how long the QB holds the ball.  When for the past five years, Luck nearly led the NFL in holding the ball but it was never used as an excuse for the oline. 

 

The consistent tone then was that the oline just sucks, and Luck was great despite the oline.  This year, the oline doesn't suck, but the QB does, which makes a great oline look bad.  

 

In fact, the solution seems to be that in order for the oline to play properly, we'll need to spend two firsts and probably two seconds to move up to take the franchise QB.  4 high picks (for the QB), plus pick 6, 22, 18, and 37 in the past just to satisfy the oline play is a lot of capital focused on the oline.   That's not a formula for winning football, IMO.

 

As for speculating about Ballard: I doubt Ballard picks another olineman high unless he sees AC as being a short timer.  He might pick a RT high and have Smith slide over, but IMO that RT will be seen as an eventual replacement for AC. 

 

If Ballard wants to devote a high pick to add a player this spring to improve the blocking, he'll probably pick a do-it-all TE in the first or second considering Ebron and Doyle's situations.  Which might also aid the QB in getting rid of the ball sooner since he'll have a consistent receiving option.

[DougDew]

That TE from Notre Dame looks pretty good to me.  Maybe between pick 15 and 22 seems like a good spot for him and us to meet.

[gspdx]

23 hours ago, DougDew said:

Not sure why @aaron11 thought my post was funny.

 

What type of QB do we need in order to not get complaints about the Oline?, which was the gist of my post.

 

Not trying to be funny - but it's not about what kind of Oline or QB we need.  People won't be complaining if we win.  Also - we need to win enough to look like a contender. That's just the expectation that Manning left us with as fans (it's all his fault).  It doesn't matter what round anyone is drafted in.  It doesn't matter if we have what some believe is a franchise QB.  Certainly nobody - not even the Pats - thought Brady was a franchise QB when he was drafted.

 

Also - if they are all performing like they are in the top 10 at their position when contract time rolls around they will get paid like it.  So sometimes the money issue forces you to let a guy walk.  And then you replace him with a guy on a rookie contract because that is all you can afford.

 

Right now we have some cap space and I am sure Ballard knows that if his guys work out and perform like they want they will get paid and use up that cap space.

 

If all of our o-linemen were UDFA and performing well nobody would complain.  But the reality is some people are always going to complain because things aren't going the way they feel they should. We don't build a team in a vacuum.  Every other team is trying to improve too (although it looks like some really aren't trying!).  

 

It doesn't matter where you draft a guy, it doesn't matter how much you are paying him.  Winning silences the critics. 

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On 11/5/2019 at 2:31 PM, Four2itus said:

No offense, but do you know any descriptions other than garbage, hot garbage, trash, or stinks?

 

On 11/5/2019 at 9:57 PM, jameszeigler834 said:

Ya but this line when it got healthy didn't look this bad last year at any point during that win streak with the old o-line coach this new * that Frank is so high on couldn't even fix denvers garbage line.

 

Apparently, he does not.

[LuckyHorseShoe§]

On 11/4/2019 at 10:17 AM, compuls1v3 said:

Thanks.  And he got a little hands to the face that wasn't called on that play.  Other players get paid too, and Heyward is a good player, but he got away with one yesterday.

Heyward is a good player. He’s also a little dirty, like almost every Steelers player. With the way the refs were getting on their knees for the Steelers, I wouldn’t be surprised if he did that to Nelson because he knew he would get away with it.

[Imgrandojji]

On 11/3/2019 at 9:17 PM, Ne-Ca-Higher said:

Nelson's failure to hold ground against Heyward cost Brissett and the team.  Several times this year linemen and even linebackers have gotten the better of him one on one.  Is he hurt?  Was he tired?  If not, he better strengthen those legs or work on his footwork and lean.  He's not the guy we expect to be bull rushed like that.

nelson is a young OL that got outmuscled by 2 of the best DLs in the league.  I wouldn't worry abut it or read too much into it.  Sometimes you have to tip you cap.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, gspdx said:

 

Not trying to be funny - but it's not about what kind of Oline or QB we need.  People won't be complaining if we win.  Also - we need to win enough to look like a contender. That's just the expectation that Manning left us with as fans (it's all his fault).  It doesn't matter what round anyone is drafted in.  It doesn't matter if we have what some believe is a franchise QB.  Certainly nobody - not even the Pats - thought Brady was a franchise QB when he was drafted.

 

Also - if they are all performing like they are in the top 10 at their position when contract time rolls around they will get paid like it.  So sometimes the money issue forces you to let a guy walk.  And then you replace him with a guy on a rookie contract because that is all you can afford.

 

Right now we have some cap space and I am sure Ballard knows that if his guys work out and perform like they want they will get paid and use up that cap space.

 

If all of our o-linemen were UDFA and performing well nobody would complain.  But the reality is some people are always going to complain because things aren't going the way they feel they should. We don't build a team in a vacuum.  Every other team is trying to improve too (although it looks like some really aren't trying!).  

 

It doesn't matter where you draft a guy, it doesn't matter how much you are paying him.  Winning silences the critics. 

 

The play of the QB impacts the play of the oline, as does the play of the WRs.  They are symbiotic relationships.  You need to have the talent disbursed throughout those positions or else the lack of talent in any one position will weigh down the performance of the others.

 

If there are perceived problems the oline has experienced, I would say that the solution is not to simply add more and better talent to the oline.  I think we're done doing that for a while.  And since Luck held the ball a long time too at points in his career, I would also say the fix is not to spend capital on an expensive QB.  Let's try something else to help the QB throw the ball quicker.

[gspdx]

41 minutes ago, DougDew said:

The play of the QB impacts the play of the oline, as does the play of the WRs.  They are symbiotic relationships.  You need to have the talent disbursed throughout those positions or else the lack of talent in any one position will weigh down the performance of the others.

 

If there are perceived problems the oline has experienced, I would say that the solution is not to simply add more and better talent to the oline.  I think we're done doing that for a while.  And since Luck held the ball a long time too at points in his career, I would also say the fix is not to spend capital on an expensive QB.  Let's try something else to help the QB throw the ball quicker.

 

Which also goes to the scheme.  You can plan/scheme/coach to player's strengths and help to mask the weaknesses.

 

I think coaches must adapt to the players skills.  

 

Reminds me of the early days of the west coast offense.  Lots of passing but also lots of short passes that substituted for the running game.

[dw49]

5 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

nelson is a young OL that got outmuscled by 2 of the best DLs in the league.  I wouldn't worry abut it or read too much into it.  Sometimes you have to tip you cap.

 

 

Yes he's young and yes I don't worry about him too much. maybe because he's a total stud . Great player and appears to be an even better team mate.

 

Verified account 6h6 hours ago

More

Quenton Nelson is @PFF’s top-rated left guard in the NFL … by nine points.

[Coffeedrinker]

6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

nelson is a young OL that got outmuscled by 2 of the best DLs in the league.  I wouldn't worry abut it or read too much into it.  Sometimes you have to tip you cap.

Wait a minute.  Are you saying that a)Nelson is not perfect and he may get beat from time to time?  And b) There are good players on other teams and that sometimes they may actually win a battle against a Colts player?

 

That's crazy talk and has no place on this forum.

[EastStreet]

just thought I'd place the below here, the home of all the silly "collapse" chatter....

 

Quote

 

Quenton Nelson

Guard No. 2 (88.0), 566 snaps (100 percent)

8 games: 0 sacks, 1 quarterback hit, 14 quarterback hurries, 1 penalty

 

It's not often that a non-skill position player has highlights, but you could make a whole mixtape out of the plays that Nelson makes every week. Nelson is currently the second-ranked guard, and the first overall left guard by an incredible 9.0 points.

 

Nelson's 87.2 run-blocking grade is first among left guards by a margin of 9.3 points. He is one of 17 guards who have played at least 50 percent of their teams' offensive snaps who haven't allowed a sack this season, and he is one of 24 guards who have allowed one or fewer hits.

 

Nelson's best overall game this season so far was in the Colts' Week 5 Sunday Night Football victory over the Kansas City Chiefs (96.2) when the Colts ran for 180 yards and allowed no sacks. That game was also Nelson's best run-blocking game (93.6) and his best pass-blocking game (84.2).

 

 

[LuckyHorseShoe§]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:17 AM, Imgrandojji said:

nelson is a young OL that got outmuscled by 2 of the best DLs in the league.  I wouldn't worry abut it or read too much into it.  Sometimes you have to tip you cap.

As an OL, if you go up against guys like Watt and Heyward, if you can contain them even 60% of the time that’s a damn good day at the office. And Nelson contains those guys and others he blocks probably close to 95%.

Everyone notices when the OL fails, no one notices when he succeeds. Kinda like the RB tasked with QB protection on PA plays.

[LuckyHorseShoe§]

On 11/7/2019 at 4:28 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

Wait a minute.  Are you saying that a)Nelson is not perfect and he may get beat from time to time?  And b) There are good players on other teams and that sometimes they may actually win a battle against a Colts player?

 

That's crazy talk and has no place on this forum.

Wait, Nelson isn’t Godzilla?! Get him off my team!!!

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, LuckyHorseShoe§ said:

Wait, Nelson isn’t Godzilla?! Get him off my team!!!

 

[coltsfeva]

On 11/5/2019 at 7:19 PM, AZColt11 said:

I'm confused.  This is akin to saying Peyton Manning threw an incompletion or Jerry Rice dropped a pass.  It happens to everybody from time to time.  These guys aren't robots.  They aren't perfect.

Or Adam Vinatieri missed a kick? Just sayin....

[dw49]

14 hours ago, EastStreet said:

just thought I'd place the below here, the home of all the silly "collapse" chatter....

 

 

 

Who was the overall #1 ?

[LuckyHorseShoe§]

9 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

Or Adam Vinatieri missed a kick? Just sayin....

Adam just lost us a game. Peyton lost us a SB with a horrible INT. Sometimes great players make greatly awful plays.

C’est la vie, as the saying goes

 

[LuckyHorseShoe§]

If anyone here thinks our OL has an issue, it doesn’t. I’d guess about 28-30 of the other teams would sacrifice a lamb in order to have our OL. Sacks happen. (Can we get that on a hat?)

If you really think our OL is bad, I implore to watch some tape on the 2018 Texans or 2019 Bengals and see what we’re avoiding

[EastStreet]

6 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

Who was the overall #1 ?

Pretty sure it was Brandon Brooks (Eagles).