Week 9 impressions: Hoyer

[colt18]

37 minutes ago, Myles said:

Nope.

He played very well for a backup thrust into a game during it.   Just remember Painter and Sorgi.

 

[stitches]

 

[stitches]

According to PFF Hoyer had better game than any Brissett game this season. I'd disagree with them about the HOU game, but this is still an interesting observation. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

There are intangibles that JB would bring that hoyer did not. He would of been better at avoiding sacks and pass protection calls.  Hoyer did great but I think we win with JB.

 

[shasta519]

28 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

 

Is that a backhanded compliment? 

[stitches]

Just now, shastamasta said:

 

Is that a backhanded compliment? 

Hard to tell from that statement, without knowing his intonation, etc. but knowing how Brissett handles himself I would guess not. He's just a great dude and he gives props to his teammates. 

[shasta519]

16 minutes ago, stitches said:

According to PFF Hoyer had better game than any Brissett game this season. I'd disagree with them about the HOU game, but this is still an interesting observation. 

 

I think it shows that the current offense is somewhat plug and play. 

[shasta519]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

Hard to tell from that statement, without knowing his intonation, etc. but knowing how Brissett handles himself I would guess not. He's just a great dude and he gives props to his teammates. 

 

Yeah...not his style. But that is him basically saying he intentionally doesn't push the ball down the field at times...so there you have it...from the "horse's mouth."

[stitches]

4 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

I think it shows that the current offense is somewhat plug and play. 

I think it shows how much we are leaving on the table. This offense can be special and should be special. People don't like it when I say it, because they think it gives me some pleasure criticizing Brissett, which I don't, but he does leave throws and a lot of yards on the field. Reich and Siriani are scheming the % out of this offense and this offense has potential to be real good when in full force and not injured. We just need the QB to make quick reads and go through the progression and not hesitate to throw the ball. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Is that a backhanded compliment? 

No he was complimenting him on great throws that he himself might not of made.  How do you even get that.

[cbear]

13 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Best our passing game looked because of what?  Because of gameplan or because of Hoyer?  If Hoyer, that's a silly opinion. Go check the stats from this game & Houston & tell me how this was better.  Hoyer threw for 168 yards... 

 

If you're saying game plan, you may have a point because we finally got Campbell to do something.  And JB was 4-5 with for 59 yards.  More yards per attempt & completion.  Had he not gotten injured, we may have seen another 300 yard 4TD game from him.

 

Read my post again.  Where did I make this a comparision between Hoyer and Brissett, which you seem to be surmising.  I don't know the reason, but it was a solid passing game.  Brissett might have done even better, who knows.  But Hoyer did well also.  So overall, I'm not concerned with Hoyer in there.

[Myles]

1 hour ago, colt18 said:

 

No one said he had a perfect game, but for a back up thrust into action on the spot, he did pretty good.   

[shasta519]

13 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

This is such a good point. He wasn’t in long and still had 59 yards. I agree he might of had another 300 yard game.

 

He was in until the 11:00 mark of the 2nd quarter...that's more than 1/4 of the game. I guess it's possible...but he was on pace for season average at that point.

[Tsarquise]

55 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Is that a backhanded compliment? 

Yeah, I thought, for a second, he may be referring to that pick 6...

 

But, no, Hoyer came in and definitely made throws Brissett wouldn't make. Hoyer was decisive and fast. He just looked like a statue when in the pocket. 

[colt18]

26 minutes ago, Myles said:

No one said he had a perfect game, but for a back up thrust into action on the spot, he did pretty good.   

That doesn’t mean he isn’t a terrible QB, because he is.

[cjwhiskers]

Just said this in the other thread but I thought Hoyer played great other then the pick-6, which was more of a coverage issue rather then a poorly thrown ball. 

 

I think the offense looked way smoother with Hoyer out there. He was decisive and the intermediate throws he made were something we haven't seen much of this year. That sideline bomb to Pascal was a beautiful throw. I honestly thought the Colts should've let him sling it a little more instead of running on 1st & 2nd. 

[Tsarquise]

10 minutes ago, cjrulli said:

Just said this in the other thread but I thought Hoyer played great other then the pick-6, which was more of a coverage issue rather then a poorly thrown ball. 

 

I think the offense looked way smoother with Hoyer out there. He was decisive and the intermediate throws he made were something we haven't seen much of this year. That sideline bomb to Pascal was a beautiful throw. I honestly thought the Colts should've let him sling it a little more instead of running on 1st & 2nd. 

Same

[Myles]

13 minutes ago, colt18 said:

That doesn’t mean he isn’t a terrible QB, because he is.

No he is not.   He is just not a great starter.   Most back ups are not great starters.   He's a good back up QB though.  I'd take him over a few starters for other teams (Darnold, Dalton, Trubisky, Mariota and maybe Winston and Mayfield).

[shasta519]

As for Hoyer impressions (or "JB vs Hoyer.....vs Kelly'" as this thread probably should be called)...let me just say that I am not sold on either one.

 

But for weeks now, passing TDs and TD:INT ratio have been the rallying cries of many in favor of JB.

 

Well, Hoyer had 3 passing TDs this game...despite only having passing 168 yards. This was driven by a completely unsustainable TD %...much like JB early in the season. 

 

TD distribution in this system skews to passing TDs...based on playcalling and circumstance. When the Colts get close to the EZ, Reich call pass plays. I think they ran pass plays on something like 70% of their RZ plays Sunday (if you count JB and Hoyer scrambles that were meant to be pass plays).

 

And when he calls runs close to the EZ...the Colts have been one of the worst teams in the NFL at success rate and YPC all season. I don't know why this is...but hopefully they can get it fixed. If they weren't so bad at it...some of those passing TDs would be rushing TDs at this point...and they probably would have run as many pass plays.

 

Regardless, you have two different QBs in the same system with very similar TD and RZ efficiency results. And despite Hoyer's boneheaded throw...his TD:INT ratio was still 3:1...which if extrapolated out to 14 TDs...it's probably like 14:4 or 14:5...vs JB's 14:3. 

 

So my impressions of Hoyer is that the offense was pretty damn similar. That's a good thing short-term...but not long-term.

[stitches]

6 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

As for Hoyer impressions (or "JB vs Hoyer.....vs Kelly'" as this thread probably should be called)...let me just say that I am not sold on either one.

 

But for weeks now, passing TDs and TD:INT ratio have been the rallying cries of many in favor of JB.

 

Well, Hoyer had 3 passing TDs this game...despite only having passing 168 yards. This was driven by a completely unsustainable TD %...much like JB early in the season. 

 

TD distribution in this system skews to passing TDs...based on playcalling and circumstance. When the Colts get close to the EZ, Reich call pass plays. I think they ran pass plays on something like 70% of their RZ plays Sunday (if you count JB and Hoyer scrambles that were meant to be pass plays).

 

And when he calls runs close to the EZ...the Colts have been one of the worst teams in the NFL at success rate and YPC all season. I don't know why this is...but hopefully they can get it fixed. If they weren't so bad at it...some of those passing TDs would be rushing TDs at this point...and they probably would have run as many pass plays.

 

Regardless, you have two different QBs in the same system with very similar TD and RZ efficiency results. And despite Hoyer's boneheaded throw...his TD:INT ratio was still 3:1...which if extrapolated out to 14 TDs...it's probably like 14:4 or 14:5...vs JB's 14:3. 

 

So my impressions of Hoyer is that the offense was pretty damn similar. That's a good thing short-term...but not long-term.

Agree with a lot of what you are saying, but just wanted to warn against drawing too firm of conclusions based on such small samples(especially the Hoyer one). 

[shasta519]

4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Agree with a lot of what you are saying, but just wanted to warn against drawing too firm of conclusions based on such small samples(especially the Hoyer one). 

 

Yeah...I was going to put SSS alert at the beginning...but I didn't mean to draw a definitive conclusion...it was more meant to show yet another data point in a season-long trend. The QB changed...but the outcomes largely stayed the same.  

[colt18]

50 minutes ago, Myles said:

No he is not.   He is just not a great starter.   Most back ups are not great starters.   He's a good back up QB though.  I'd take him over a few starters for other teams (Darnold, Dalton, Trubisky, Mariota and maybe Winston and Mayfield).

 

 

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, Stephen said:

Once we get hilton and funchess  back, keep Campbell  healthy, and pascal our wrs will be better. Cain and Roger's are the weak links 

Rogers was #2 in WR yards last year, and had a better catch % than TY. He's not flashy, but he doesn't suck. There's a reason they kept him over re-signing Inman.

 

We're using Cain wrong. If you watched him in college, you know what his strengths are, and they are not in the short possession game like we are asking him to do. If we had a deep game at all, folks might see him different. 

[EastStreet]

10 hours ago, stitches said:

According to PFF Hoyer had better game than any Brissett game this season. I'd disagree with them about the HOU game, but this is still an interesting observation. 

PFF IIRC takes into account opponent. Given Pitt is #2 in turn over differential, top 5 in sacks, etc.. I can see them grading it above Houston who has one of the worst pass defenses in the league. Aside from the INT, very good game. Had the INT not went for 6 the other way, most wouldn't care.

[ojsglove]

12 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

If anyone on this team or front office is buying their own hype it's the offensive line. The last two weeks they have been crap vs lesser talent. It takes effort and discipline and I am seeing less of those the last 2 weeks. They better get it together because they're needed if this team is going to make any noise every year. 

 

 

Thank you, I thought I was only one seeing, and saying this.

[EastStreet]

12 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

If anyone on this team or front office is buying their own hype it's the offensive line. The last two weeks they have been crap vs lesser talent. It takes effort and discipline and I am seeing less of those the last 2 weeks. They better get it together because they're needed if this team is going to make any noise every year. 

Pitt is top 5ish in sacks. Watt and Heyward are elite. Lesser talent is a bit of a stretch. Hargrave is pretty good too. Definitely better than our defensive Ts. 

 

I do agree our OL is not #1 like a lot think, but they are top 5-7ish. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Pitt is top 5ish in sacks. Watt and Heyward are elite. Lesser talent is a bit of a stretch. Hargrave is pretty good too. Definitely better than our defensive Ts. 

 

I do agree our OL is not #1 like a lot think, but they are top 5-7ish. 

That Dupree fella was given us fits all day too. The last 2 weeks we have played solid defenses. 

[EastStreet]

19 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That Dupree fella was given us fits all day too. The last 2 weeks we have played solid defenses. 

with guys like Heyward and Watt crashing, the others find holes. It's not an easy task for even a very good OL. Glow is a weak spot though and not having Kelly was huge.

[GoColts8818]

11 hours ago, Myles said:

No one said he had a perfect game, but for a back up thrust into action on the spot, he did pretty good.   

Exactly when you consider he was without both starting WRs and really three of the top four WRs the bulk of the game and without the starting center I don’t think you can ask him to do more than he did.

 

if his name was chad Kelly and he did these things a lot of the same people complaining about Hoyer would be screaming for Kelly to take Jacoby’s job.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Rogers was #2 in WR yards last year, and had a better catch % than TY. He's not flashy, but he doesn't suck. There's a reason they kept him over re-signing Inman.

 

We're using Cain wrong. If you watched him in college, you know what his strengths are, and they are not in the short possession game like we are asking him to do. If we had a deep game at all, folks might see him different. 

Hoyer targeted  cain deep and he dropped it. Roger's hasn't  done much of anything  this year in the receiving game.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Hoyer targeted  cain deep and he dropped it. Roger's hasn't  done much of anything  this year in the receiving game.

On a team that has Ebron and Funch, one drop isn't going to rule Cain out for me. Heck, TY has 3 or 4 drops himself.

 

As far as Rogers.... There are a lot of WRs and TEs not doing near as much as they did last year.... TY has the same # of catches, 30+% less yardage. Ebron's productivity is down 30+ % too. Pascal's productivity per game is the only WR to go up, and almost half of that is from Hoyer... Doyles production is even down per game from 2017... 

 

 

[NannyMcafee]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Pitt is top 5ish in sacks. Watt and Heyward are elite. Lesser talent is a bit of a stretch. Hargrave is pretty good too. Definitely better than our defensive Ts. 

 

I do agree our OL is not #1 like a lot think, but they are top 5-7ish. 

 

They may have taken a step back this year. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

They may have taken a step back this year. 

 

Not really. We were without Kelly, our OL signal caller. Also playing against some elite DL play makers the last two weeks.

 

If there is a step back, it's likely because they are protecting JB 2.87 (bottom ten) TTT vs Luck last year 2.63 (top 10). JB was actually above 3.0 vs Denver IIRC.

 

Hoyer was a very good 2.5ish last week and it was more about not having Kelly.

[Colts_Fan12]

13 hours ago, EastStreet said:

On a team that has Ebron and Funch, one drop isn't going to rule Cain out for me. Heck, TY has 3 or 4 drops himself.

 

As far as Rogers.... There are a lot of WRs and TEs not doing near as much as they did last year.... TY has the same # of catches, 30+% less yardage. Ebron's productivity is down 30+ % too. Pascal's productivity per game is the only WR to go up, and almost half of that is from Hoyer... Doyles production is even down per game from 2017... 

 

 

I wonder why lol

[EastStreet]

28 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I wonder why lol

Anyone willing to look deeper can see the trends thus far. 

Doesn't mean they won't get better though.

[PrincetonTiger]

On 11/4/2019 at 12:32 PM, Myles said:

No he is not.   He is just not a great starter.   Most back ups are not great starters.   He's a good back up QB though.  I'd take him over a few starters for other teams (Darnold, Dalton, Trubisky, Mariota and maybe Winston and Mayfield).

Earl Morrall made a career of being a great backup

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Earl Morrall made a career of being a great backup

Yes, but he looked like crap his rookie season.  

I don't know that Minshew can/will be a good starter in the NFL.  He did play very well and played better than several starters in the league.  With Foles injury history, the Jags seem to have a decent backup with potential.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

Yes, but he looked like crap his rookie season.  

I don't know that Minshew can/will be a good starter in the NFL.  He did play very well and played better than several starters in the league.  With Foles injury history, the Jags seem to have a decent backup with potential.

It seems Minshew has a gimmick 

[Colts_Fan12]

22 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Anyone willing to look deeper can see the trends thus far. 

Doesn't mean they won't get better though.

I'm about done holding out hope he will improve the dude is in his 4th year has had some of the best coaching and has like a year and a half of starting experience. I'm basically at a he is what he is point now. however I sadly think he will be good enough to screw us out of a top pick for a QB in the draft so we are basically stuck with him and my fear of being stuck in the average zone is slowly becoming reality. 

[EastStreet]

15 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I'm about done holding out hope he will improve the dude is in his 4th year has had some of the best coaching and has like a year and a half of starting experience. I'm basically at a he is what he is point now. however I sadly think he will be good enough to screw us out of a top pick for a QB in the draft so we are basically stuck with him and my fear of being stuck in the average zone is slowly becoming reality. 

My biggest fear is getting stuck in the average zone. I'm not quite to the point on giving up though. I wanted to see how he plays during the last 7 games.

 

After Miami, we have a critical 3 game stretch vs division foes which includes 2 must win home games vs TN and the Jags, plus a road game in Houston, whom we desperately need a tie breaker over. 

 

Then we have a three game stretch vs the NFCS vs two mediocre to decent teams and one good/great one. Then a division road game which will likely have huge playoff implications in the AFCS (assuming we do decent and at least go 2-3 in the first 3 game stretch).

 

If we sheet the bed and don't make the playoffs, I'll be done. If we squeak into the playoffs and get smacked around in the first round, I'll likely be done. Honestly I could see almost outcome from missing the playoffs, to making the AFC championship game. Those last 7 games will tell the tale, and firm up my opinion on JB.