The wr problem.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Sometimes I wish there was a way to hide threads. These threads are getting old and they go nowhere.

[richard pallo]

16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think there is an equal, maybe even more pervasive, argument that says we need to move on from JB under the premise that Cain and Pascal can play at a level near Reggie Wayne.

 

IMO, this isn't a tough thing to analyze. 

 

Our passing game is being played with a 3rd rounder at QB and mainly 6th rounders/UDFA at WR, and an inconsistent guy at TE.  And it is what it has been with an Oline that's stacked with three 1st and one high 2nd rounder.

 

And I'm not saying that to push a narrative.  That's the situation.

I really think we can win with Jacoby but the injuries to our WR's have really held up our offense.  We are winning games but barely.  Right now opponents only have to worry about one WR and that's TY.  Ballard is apparently counting on Funchess to come back and be a big contributor.   Hope he's right.  

[Creekside]

6 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Read entire post! Don’t be an egg head.

 

I read it.

 

Now I have myself on my face!

[Four2itus]

2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

The fact Reich doesn’t even seem to know how to use Campbell is weird to me.

Ya, that's reaching for an answer, before the question should even be asked. 

[DougDew]

42 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The underlined is obvious hyperbole (right?), so I'm ignoring it.

 

The bolded is a strawman. 'JB has missed open receivers and needs to be better at anticipating openings and going downfield' is very different from 'the Colts need to move on from JB.'

 

'I'm not sure JB is ever going to be a very advanced passer' is very different from 'the Colts need to move on from JB.'

 

So, tie together a strawman with a hyperbolic statement, and what you do have? The second half of your post is fine, but the first half is general nonsense that favors arguing the extreme rather than having a real conversation about the QB play.

I don't think this WR thread is being responded to without some injecting their opinion of JB into the WR analysis.   Starting with the 6th response to this thread, a comment about JB sparked many reactions.  So there is sentiment that JB is somehow causing WR play to be less than expected, which implies that there seems to be a high expectation for the WRs.

 

So Cain can only run certain routes, routes that JB can't or won't throw.  Seems like a talent problem on BOTH ends.  

 

I agree with you.  The QB can fail to see open receivers and the receivers can fail to get open.  Its what I alluded to when I said our passing game is being executed by players who, outside of one who's about 30 years old, have been drafted no higher than the 3rd round.  That includes the RBs too.  

 

(I'm not counting Ebron because its obvious his career has not lived up to expectations.  I have no idea where his career accomplishments puts him in terms of draft placement equivalent, not that there is even a perfect correlation for that.)

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I assume they are trying to give him as much time. He still has awhile before that jags game.

 

 

[MPStack]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

You find it amusing but you know full well the Colts are going to bring Fountain back. 
 

100% Agree

And you know they aren't getting rid of Cain anytime this year so they seem to be a bit more patient than you are. 
 

I wouldn’t be show sure during the playoffs. What’s he done so far?

 

1 hour ago, krunk said:

If Cain shows anything this year which I'm banking he will then you can expect he'll be back next year as well.

 

Stick him on your fantasy team then.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, krunk said:

They are patient will players who show the talent and the ability along with the other things they look for even if you don't see it immediately before your own eyes. 
 

It’s easy to cut a 6th Rd pick who’s not producing.  I hope he’s as great as you seem to think he’s going to be, but I’m not buying it.  Cheers. 

[krunk]

2 minutes ago, MPStack said:

 

 

 

 

It’s easy to cut a 6th Rd pick who’s not producing.  I hope he’s as great as you seem to think he’s going to be, but I’m not buying it.  Cheers. 

Call me when they cut him this year.   I'll be waiting

[MPStack]

4 minutes ago, krunk said:

Call me when they cut him this year.   I'll be waiting

Call me when he's making an impact!

 

cheers

[krunk]

4 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Call me when he's making an impact!

 

cheers

That will happen soon.  Definitely before the cut ever happens

[Mitch Connors]

2 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I'd suggest reading @Superman's All 22 breakdown in the Week 8 topic then..

 

Where are these located? I dont see them anywhere on the forums. I have always looked forward to the breakdowns and didnt realize they still were happening.

 

Thank you.

[Nickster]

3 hours ago, Jdubu said:

I’m glad someone finally said it besides me. JB is stalled right now in his progress growth chart as a QB imho. We have to give him some time to either mature and grow past what he is now or we need more Olineman who can hold blocks for 5-7 seconds like Brady often gets with his line. I’m not bashing JB in this post either, he is basically playing his rookie season here as a starter. He may take 2-3 years like most other rookies to get up to speed. The question is, does he show the coaching staff that he has that ability to blossom into a top 10 or better QB? Idk 

See the next poster cause that was my question, where is the rest of the answer? 

I’d love to watch the all22 on these routes run by all the receivers just to see what’s taking place past the line of scrimmage. I’ve barked about it multiple times that we are either running too long of routes for the time the oline is giving JB to find them or they are not giving JB a target to hit with because they aren’t running good routes. I mean, not every team can just blanket our guys 90% of the times and not be a top 3 passing defense. I won’t count the Denver game, they have a legit solid defense. But you know there is more to a story than the nonsense answer Reich gave on Cain not being the matchup in this game so that’s why he was a healthy scratch. Cain obviously isn’t performing the traits the team expects of him on the field right now or poor passes and no looks from JB wouldn’t cause him a missed game, poor routes and half attempts will. 

I think until some people come to realize Luck is gone and JB is nowhere near the talent he was, the team will have struggles that are based on a QB playing basically his first year as a starter. This is the first time the weight is on his shoulders that it’s his team win or bust. That’s an added pressure. I still unfortunately think this offensive scheme is built for Lucks play vs JB’s abilities currently. Maybe JB isn’t good at hitting the 3-5 yard slants of a flashing across the middle WR because we don’t see a lot of that. We know we still aren’t good at performing a screen play since around 2005. I’d expect us to use Doyle much much more than he is being used right now but maybe we get Funches back and he allows the offense to click better for JB IDK. But more to Venturis point, the oline has got to play better moving forward. 

We don’t always agree on the forum here but I couldn’t has said any of this better than you just did. Wr’s may own some of the blame to the offense looking like it is but all of these facts kinda point to the fact that Luck is t throwing in this offense anymoreJB is and that’s caused many of these issues. Maybe they get better with reps, maybe not but as of not, JB right now isn’t showing us to be our high capacity starter for the future, only a caretaker of the ball. I hope he develops that quicker ability to process the reads or that his oline holds blocks 2 seconds longer than they are. JB has been acceptable relative to what the outcomes have been (wins and low TO rate) but why pay TY the next contract money if he isn’t going to be able to produce in the top 5-10 of receivers? 

 

I don't think pass catchers are going to want to come to Indy.  JB isn't going to help them make money.  I think we have a better than average set of offensive weapons and a very good to elite OLINE.  

 

I think the QBs limitations are the offenseive issue.  I don't think Funchess is the Messiah.  He's just another big slot guy and the Colts have two really good ones already.

[SteelCityColt]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

 

Where are these located? I dont see them anywhere on the forums. I have always looked forward to the breakdowns and didnt realize they still were happening.

 

Thank you.

 

Starting at the bottom of page 10:

 

[Superman]

19 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I don't think this WR thread is being responded to without some injecting their opinion of JB into the WR analysis.   Starting with the 6th response to this thread, a comment about JB sparked many reactions.  So there is sentiment that JB is somehow causing WR play to be less than expected, which implies that there seems to be a high expectation for the WRs.

 

So Cain can only run certain routes, routes that JB can't or won't throw.  Seems like a talent problem on BOTH ends.  

 

I agree with you.  The QB can fail to see open receivers and the receivers can fail to get open.  Its what I alluded to when I said our passing game is being executed by players who, outside of one who's about 30 years old, have been drafted no higher than the 3rd round.  That includes the RBs too.  

 

(I'm not counting Ebron because its obvious his career has not lived up to expectations.  I have no idea where his career accomplishments puts him in terms of draft placement equivalent, not that there is even a perfect correlation for that.)

 

First bolded, I think the implication is that the receivers can't perform if the QB doesn't throw them the ball. 

 

Second bolded, I don't think it's a limitation with Cain's ability to run more routes, it's about the routes that he's being asked to run within the offense. Cain hasn't been perfect, but he has been open at times. 

 

And these two things are symbiotic, which should go without saying. But somehow, commenting on one seems to be taken as a referendum on the other, and I think there's a heightened defensiveness that isn't necessary.

[SteelCityColt]

59 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Sometimes I wish there was a way to hide threads. These threads are getting old and they go nowhere.

 

I agree conversations where posters repeat themselves across multiple topics, often with opinions that aren't substantiated or are just plain factually wrong, who also ignore any challenge to their posts get old fast.

 

However topics like these where people on both sides of the fence can have reasoned informed football conversations are great, I mean it's a football discussion board right. Some very clued up people on here too. 

 

I mean you don't have to take part if they annoy you so much.

[DougDew]

Just now, Superman said:

 

First bolded, I think the implication is that the receivers can't perform if the QB doesn't throw them the ball. 

 

Second bolded, I don't think it's a limitation with Cain's ability to run more routes, it's about the routes that he's being asked to run within the offense. Cain hasn't been perfect, but he has been open at times. 

 

And these two things are symbiotic, which should go without saying. But somehow, commenting on one seems to be taken as a referendum on the other, and I think there's a heightened defensiveness that isn't necessary.

I agree.  I would say that there is an aura of Cain being a second round talent that somehow escaped to the 6th round.  And since he isn't producing, there seems to be a head scratching as to why, then the thought of JB comes to mind.  He's going to get open.  If he didn't, he wouldn't be here, but the context of the thread is that there is some "surprise" to the notion that he, and others, are not getting the production that is expected, which is then attributable to the QB.

 

I don't think its a surprise at all.  I think they are meeting expectations.  They are having the production I expected them to have given their talent level as measured by draft slot (not that its perfect scale).  And they could certainly do better if the QB did better.  I expect it the O to look better when DF earns his contract and PC earns his draft slot too, regardless if JB improves.

[hoosierhawk]

Good QBs make good receivers. I don't think TY is a great route runner but 40-50% (guess) of his yards in his career has come from busted plays in which he got open after breaking his route with QB scrambling or on deep posts. No knock on him but a good receiver is as good as his QB. 

JB has  the size, the arm strength, and the toughness to be a good QB. I think the jury is still out as to whether he can read defenses pre snap and quickly go thru his progressions and develops the confidence in himself and his receivers to throw them open. Right or wrong, I don't think the coaching staff has developed the confidence in JB and may be holding him back. They have not opened the entire playbook.

[jvan1973]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I agree.  I would say that there is an aura of Cain being a second round talent that somehow escaped to the 6th round.  And since he isn't producing, there seems to be a head scratching as to why, then the thought of JB comes to mind.  He's going to get open.  If he didn't, he wouldn't be here, but the context of the thread is that there is some "surprise" to the notion that he, and others, are not getting the production that is expected, which is then attributable to the QB.

 

I don't think its a surprise at all.  I think they are meeting expectations.  They are having the production I expected them to have given their talent level as measured by draft slot (not that its perfect scale).  And they could certainly do better if the QB did better.  I expect it the O to look better when DF earns his contract and PC earns his draft slot too, regardless if JB improves.

Cain fell in the draft because of off the field issues.     He had 2nd/3rd projections going into thdraft

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, aaron11 said:

doyle is usually wide open, i think defenses dont worry about getting tight coverage on him.  

I think his numbers might be a bit overstated, and partially because of blown coverage. A few receptions he had no one within 10 yards of him. Ebron typically pulls tighter coverage though it seems. 

[Superman]

44 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I agree.  I would say that there is an aura of Cain being a second round talent that somehow escaped to the 6th round.  And since he isn't producing, there seems to be a head scratching as to why, then the thought of JB comes to mind.  He's going to get open.  If he didn't, he wouldn't be here, but the context of the thread is that there is some "surprise" to the notion that he, and others, are not getting the production that is expected, which is then attributable to the QB.

 

I don't think its a surprise at all.  I think they are meeting expectations.  They are having the production I expected them to have given their talent level as measured by draft slot (not that its perfect scale).  And they could certainly do better if the QB did better.  I expect it the O to look better when DF earns his contract and PC earns his draft slot too, regardless if JB improves.

 

I think Cain gets oversold a little, and even if he was as good of a prospect as some thing, coming off an ACL this should be a throwaway year. It takes a season before a player is the same after an ACL, with some rare exceptions.

 

And yes, as I said, this thread is alarmist, IMO. I think there are varied and connected reasons for the lack of production in the passing game, but I don't think any of those reasons are that the staff is failing to develop or use young receivers. At least, I don't think there's enough evidence to reach that kind of conclusion.

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

I heard him go more in depth about why he wasn’t higher on the reads. I just can’t remember where. I thought it was his podcast Monday this week. 

In general, pretty obvious that TY and TE are 1st and 2nd reads the great majority of time. When Funch gets back, I'm sure he'll be early in the reads. BUT, I'll bet most of his early read plays are from the slot, which basically is a very similar route (if not almost identical) to TE. 

 

Cain had the least amount slot snaps of any WR (7.9%), and more deep routes than anyone. Deep routes are rarely early reads unless you're in 3rd and long. And when that happens, typically your WR1 is running the early read deep route. Purely my opinion, but Cain was used as the guy to stretch the Ds and keep them honest (aka decoy), and was likely 3rd read. He'd be a great option to take an occasion shot to on early downs. But our O has been run run pass most of the time. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

This.  

 

I think JB is basically an Alex Smith type QB. He just doesn't connect deep with TY throws a bunch of short stuff.  

 

Quick passes on short routes are important, but eventually you have to test them deep.  It doesn't feel like JB has the downfield accuracy for that.  Either that or the coaches can't trust that he'll be able to see his downfield man is covered and make his 2nd and third reads.   

 

That's just it, his best quadrants in 2017 were deep middle and deep right. 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/season/jacoby-brissett/BRI516391/2017/all/qb-grid

 

I know JB struggles with progressions and may not have the best field vision, but I think part of the problem is scheme, game plan / play calling, and trust (from the coaches).

[NewColtsFan]

16 hours ago, MPStack said:

Correct and he was punished and kept his nose clean his last season. Think that would drop him all the way to the 6th Rd if he was the talent some say he is? maybe, 3rd or 4th. 
 

Weaknesses after last season. Take it however you want. 

 

Failed to post expected production jump after taking over WR1 duties from Mike Williams

Targeted more but production declined in almost every meaningful category

Will need to expand his route tree as a pro

Doesn't separate as much as he could underneath

Can run routes with more urgency and suddenness

Fluctuations with focus has plagued him

Has seen drop rate increase in each of the last two seasons

Needs to play stronger through his routes

Appeared to get flustered at times by length and size across from him

Penalized 10 times over three years with a majority being false starts

 

 

MP.....

 

I’ve seen that profile a number of times.  Here’s the problem.   You left off his projected round from the writer who wrote about his strengths and weaknesses.   
 

Cain was projected to go in R’s 2-3.   A Day Two draft pick.

 

You also only posted his weaknesses.  You didn’t post his strengths.   When you only post one without the other, then of course he looks like a 6th round pick.   
 

It no surprise the one “like” is from the one poster who always posts selective stats and pretends that any information that doesn’t help him doesn’t even exist.    That’s what he does. 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, hoosierhawk said:

Good QBs make good receivers. I don't think TY is a great route runner but 40-50% (guess) of his yards in his career has come from busted plays in which he got open after breaking his route with QB scrambling or on deep posts. No knock on him but a good receiver is as good as his QB. 

JB has  the size, the arm strength, and the toughness to be a good QB. I think the jury is still out as to whether he can read defenses pre snap and quickly go thru his progressions and develops the confidence in himself and his receivers to throw them open. Right or wrong, I don't think the coaching staff has developed the confidence in JB and may be holding him back. They have not opened the entire playbook.

I have a feeling Ballard and Reich think he can read defenses pre snap and quickly go thru his progressions and he can throw receivers open.  Otherwise I don't see them giving him a two year deal for 30M dollars when they didn't have to.  They could have just let him finish the year and make a determination on his status at the end.  I think they thought he could do it and by giving him the contract early they would actually save some money by paying him when they did versus him having a great year and then have to pay him.  So far it looks like they were right.  JB has even been in some MVP talk and the season is not half over.  Also Reich and Ballard have been clear on how much they love JB and how much confidence they have in him.  It's too bad they lost Funchess early because I think he would have been a good WR2 to throw to.  When Funchess returns and hopefully Campbell gets going JB could have a great second half as well.  It wouldn't surprise me at all.  

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, Jdubu said:

I’m glad someone finally said it besides me. JB is stalled right now in his progress growth chart as a QB imho. We have to give him some time to either mature and grow past what he is now or we need more Olineman who can hold blocks for 5-7 seconds like Brady often gets with his line. I’m not bashing JB in this post either, he is basically playing his rookie season here as a starter. He may take 2-3 years like most other rookies to get up to speed. The question is, does he show the coaching staff that he has that ability to blossom into a top 10 or better QB? Idk 

Can't agree about the rookie classification. He was mentored by Brady and Luck for multiple seasons. He started most of 2017. I do agree he needs time, but he's got some great advantages going for him. He has a much better supporting cast on O than most QBs out there that are performing at a higher clip right now. One of the best OLs, probably the best TE twosome, top 10 running game, and a WR (TY) that is proven. The remaining WRs were more than serviceable for Luck last year, and I think the rooks are fallout, or a product of a conservative offensive plan.

 

Quote

See the next poster cause that was my question, where is the rest of the answer? 

there's both an interview (can find it, but Chloe might be able to), and a 1075 The Fan article. 

https://www.1075thefan.com/blogs/kevins-corner/colts-coverage/colts-thursday-notebook-what-holding-back-deon-cain

 

Quote

I’d love to watch the all22 on these routes run by all the receivers just to see what’s taking place past the line of scrimmage. I’ve barked about it multiple times that we are either running too long of routes for the time the oline is giving JB to find them or they are not giving JB a target to hit with because they aren’t running good routes. I mean, not every team can just blanket our guys 90% of the times and not be a top 3 passing defense. I won’t count the Denver game, they have a legit solid defense. But you know there is more to a story than the nonsense answer Reich gave on Cain not being the matchup in this game so that’s why he was a healthy scratch. Cain obviously isn’t performing the traits the team expects of him on the field right now or poor passes and no looks from JB wouldn’t cause him a missed game, poor routes and half attempts will. 

I agree somewhat that Cain was not a good matchup in the Denver game. If you're not going to throw it deep on occasion, and you're going to prioritize possession routes (like they did with TY and TE), he'd be nothing more than a decoy. Heck, Campbell barely got snaps. It was primarily TY and Pascal, and then a mix of Rogers or 2 TE sets.

 

 

Quote

 

I think until some people come to realize Luck is gone and JB is nowhere near the talent he was, the team will have struggles that are based on a QB playing basically his first year as a starter. This is the first time the weight is on his shoulders that it’s his team win or bust. That’s an added pressure. I still unfortunately think this offensive scheme is built for Lucks play vs JB’s abilities currently. Maybe JB isn’t good at hitting the 3-5 yard slants of a flashing across the middle WR because we don’t see a lot of that. We know we still aren’t good at performing a screen play since around 2005. I’d expect us to use Doyle much much more than he is being used right now but maybe we get Funches back and he allows the offense to click better for JB 

 

 

My concern is growing here too. Outside of being disappointed we don't see an occasional long ball, I thought we'd be a lot better at quick crossing patterns or slants. It's an area I figured Campbell would excel. He only got like 8 snaps last game. On some of the attempts to cross quickly, the ball didn't lead the WR/TE all that well at times. IMO, this is more QB timing/trust than WR route running.

 

Quote

IDK. But more to Venturis point, the oline has got to play better moving forward. 

I'm not letting the OL completely off the hook, but it's not easy at all to perform at a high clip all game long when your QB consistently holds the ball for a long time. It's simply the law of averages. 

 

Quote

We don’t always agree on the forum here but I couldn’t has said any of this better than you just did. Wr’s may own some of the blame to the offense looking like it is but all of these facts kinda point to the fact that Luck is t throwing in this offense anymoreJB is and that’s caused many of these issues. Maybe they get better with reps, maybe not but as of not, JB right now isn’t showing us to be our high capacity starter for the future, only a caretaker of the ball. I hope he develops that quicker ability to process the reads or that his oline holds blocks 2 seconds longer than they are. JB has been acceptable relative to what the outcomes have been (wins and low TO rate) but why pay TY the next contract money if he isn’t going to be able to produce in the top 5-10 of receivers?

 

I'd really love to see Reich open things up for JB a bit. We saw a very good game from him vs Houston. I know Houston's passing D isn't near as tough as Denver, but I also thought the game plan vs Denver played into their hands a bit. Because we were conservative and short, Denver was able to compress the field and throwing lanes. We did have WRs open as Superman illustrated, but we instead tried to force it short. It just felt like we were playing their game, instead of forcing them defend our game. 

 

I do think Funch will be a boost when he comes back from a pure completions perspective, but IMO, it'll just be more of the same (short passing and possession type routes). It's not something that will grow JB's game. It'll be like running a lot of 2 and 3 TE sets to be honest. That'll be fine with teams that have mediocre Os, but not much help when we go against teams that can score. I bet if Funch comes back healthy (and doesn't drop a bunch), you're not going to see a lot of Campbell (or other WRs besides TY, Funch, and Pascal). I think we'll see guys like Campbell and Cain vs TB and Houston, but very little vs the others. 

 

 

 

 

 

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Cain fell in the draft because of off the field issues.     He had 2nd/3rd projections going into thdraft

Yes, and that was a part of it.  But there were questions around his NFL abilities too.  I think some pundits had him up around the second but that wasn't a consensus, IIRC.

[hoosierhawk]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

I have a feeling Ballard and Reich think he can read defenses pre snap and quickly go thru his progressions and he can throw receivers open.  Otherwise I don't see them giving him a two year deal for 30M dollars when they didn't have to.  They could have just let him finish the year and make a determination on his status at the end.  I think they thought he could do it and by giving him the contract early they would actually save some money by paying him when they did versus him having a great year and then have to pay him.  So far it looks like they were right.  JB has even been in some MVP talk and the season is not half over.  Also Reich and Ballard have been clear on how much they love JB and how much confidence they have in him.  It's too bad they lost Funchess early because I think he would have been a good WR2 to throw to.  When Funchess returns and hopefully Campbell gets going JB could have a great second half as well.  It wouldn't surprise me at all.  

I have a feeling Ballard and Reich think he can read defenses pre snap and quickly go thru his progressions and he throw receivers open

Reich did not see him throw a pass in a meaningful game to that point. He played in preseason and a little mop-up last year. Can't say he showed it in 2017.

 

Also Reich and Ballard have been clear on how much they love JB and how much confidence they have in him.

What would you think they would say at this point? Would you expect them to say he sucks?

 

When Funchees returns and hopefully Campbell gets going JB could have a great second half as well.    

Hope your right.

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

Pascal seems to have had the bulb turn on, huge vs. Houston, nearly took opening kick to the house vs. Denver then didnt get targeted near enough. Strike the iron while its hot! We have enough in the wr room there is no way TY should be blanketed without consequences. Trust we will get it figured out. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

44 minutes ago, Mr.NotSoCreative said:

Pascal seems to have had the bulb turn on, huge vs. Houston, nearly took opening kick to the house vs. Denver then didnt get targeted near enough. Strike the iron while its hot! We have enough in the wr room there is no way TY should be blanketed without consequences. Trust we will get it figured out. 

One of the reasons I think pascal has done pretty well is he already built that trust with Jacoby last season. They worked together a ton being on the scout team and being backups.

 

Reich has to get better as a play caller with the passing game. We will see as the season goes along if he opens up and changes things. How much have we seen two WR go deep at the same time. Every time we have missed it’s been just one guy. Have there been any where TY and Cain both went deep on the same play? I don’t know. 

 

I think is was today Reich said they had planned for Campbell to get 20 snaps last week but it didn’t work out as the game unfolded. Maybe that’s part of the problem. He is playing to conservative. Take someone chances and see what happens. Jacoby had like 4 passes in 2017 that connected for 60 yards. That was the most in the nfl. Hopefully Reich starts to trust him more and opens up the playbook. I don’t even think they have sent TY deep yet.

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

I have a feeling Ballard and Reich think he can read defenses pre snap and quickly go thru his progressions and he throw receivers open

Reich did not see him throw a pass in a meaningful game to that point. He played in preseason and a little mop-up last year. Can't say he showed it in 2017.

 

Also Reich and Ballard have been clear on how much they love JB and how much confidence they have in him.

What would you think they would say at this point? Would you expect them to say he sucks?

 

When Funchees returns and hopefully Campbell gets going JB could have a great second half as well.    

Hope your right.

They have said that about JB since he came here and before Luck retired. It’s just not lip service.

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

They have said that about JB since he came here and before Luck retired. It’s just not lip service.

actually here's what they (NFL.com combine) said when he came into the league.

 

Quote

Downward trajectory from over­-the­-top delivery causes some throws to sink. Has been severely pressured over last two seasons and developed bad habits because of it. Will drop eyes when he feels pressure and throws off his back foot as tools of survival. Occasionally muscles a back­foot throw despite having time to step and drive the ball. Still learning to calm feet and deliver rather than bail when defender is closing in. Carries ball low and away from body when scrambling. Has moments where he is oblivious to pre­-snap tells that blitz is coming off the edge. Needs to transition from always trying to fight through sacks to getting rid of the ball more quickly. Struggles with deep ball accuracy completing just 23.1 percent on attempts of 21-plus yards. Had several overthrows when tasked with deep throws down sideline versus man coverage. Failed to recognize receivers running wide open down the seam. Gets locked in on a pre­-snap plan and has issues altering his itinerary quickly.

 

Pre-snap reads, deep balls, missing wide receivers, locked in, etc. are all things that people have brought up this year. Not saying he can't improve, but the issues we are seeing now have been there for a while.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

actually here's what they (NFL.com combine) said when he came into the league.

 

 

Pre-snap reads, deep balls, missing wide receivers, locked in, etc. are all things that people have brought up this year. Not saying he can't improve, but the issues we are seeing now have been there for a while.

I was talking about how Reich and Ballard love him. 

[Bleedin Blue]

On 10/29/2019 at 8:58 PM, EastStreet said:

Doyle is ranked 4th in the league at separation, so speed really isn't an issue, and he's open plenty. 

 

Not buying the WR2 narrative as a reason we're not going deep. TY's big decrease in yards per catch is pretty telling. He's not all of a sudden worse than last year. His catch % is up from 63% to 70%. His big plays (20+ yards) are down by over 50%. Logic would say that either 1) Frank is not calling deep plays because he lacks confidence, or 2) JB is going with shallow 1st and 2nd reads.

 

And another blurb on Cain.... While Reich said in week 4 that he needed to improve on his route running, he also was highly complimentary on his "natural gift" to beat the press at the line (which means he easily gets past the CB). If he's burning the CB and requires S help, that's a huge benefit itself if only to create space for other WRs/TEs in the seam. 

 

I think another reason that TY's production is down this year is that opposing teams are often doubling him up and/or crashing a safety to his side in an effort to take out our best receiving threat.

 

They are are in effect saying, we dare you to beat us with "the other guys" and while that may not be entirely working, it is putting a dent in TY's production.

[Stephen]

12 hours ago, Nickster said:

 

I don't think pass catchers are going to want to come to Indy.  JB isn't going to help them make money.  I think we have a better than average set of offensive weapons and a very good to elite OLINE.  

 

I think the QBs limitations are the offenseive issue.  I don't think Funchess is the Messiah.  He's just another big slot guy and the Colts have two really good ones already.

Funchess is the Bob Sanders  of the colts offense  lol

58 minutes ago, Bleedin Blue said:

 

I think another reason that TY's production is down this year is that opposing teams are often doubling him up and/or crashing a safety to his side in an effort to take out our best receiving threat.

 

They are are in effect saying, we dare you to beat us with "the other guys" and while that may not be entirely working, it is putting a dent in TY's production.

He is still dealing  with calf injury 

[richard pallo]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

actually here's what they (NFL.com combine) said when he came into the league.

 

 

Pre-snap reads, deep balls, missing wide receivers, locked in, etc. are all things that people have brought up this year. Not saying he can't improve, but the issues we are seeing now have been there for a while.

My guess he has improved quite a bit.  It didn't stop BB from drafting him in the 3rd. or Ballard trading for him.   He keeps getting better.  Hopefully our receivers keep getting better too. 

[EastStreet]

16 hours ago, Bleedin Blue said:

 

I think another reason that TY's production is down this year is that opposing teams are often doubling him up and/or crashing a safety to his side in an effort to take out our best receiving threat.

 

They are are in effect saying, we dare you to beat us with "the other guys" and while that may not be entirely working, it is putting a dent in TY's production.

IDK...  he was doubled a ton last year so I really don't see anything new to our O except for the QB. TY is averaging the same amount of catches per game. The difference is his average yards per catch and total yards are down. He is getting less than half the number of "big plays" (more than 20 yards) on the same amount of catches. Is that Reich calling more routes for TY that are shallow, JB not pulling the trigger on the deeper routes he does run, or both?

[richard pallo]

Josh Gordon was waived today.  I wonder if Ballard will put in a claim.  We are probably too far down the pecking order anyway.  But he sure would take the pressure off TY.  

[Imgrandojji]

7 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Josh Gordon was waived today.  I wonder if Ballard will put in a claim.  We are probably too far down the pecking order anyway.  But he sure would take the pressure off TY.  

I honestly would take a swing at that.  It's not like we have much to lose.

[EastStreet]

9 hours ago, richard pallo said:

My guess he has improved quite a bit.  It didn't stop BB from drafting him in the 3rd. or Ballard trading for him.   He keeps getting better.  Hopefully our receivers keep getting better too. 

Belichick has a long history of drafting back up QBs every few years. Some good, some bad. He's also done a great job of trading them away for draft capital in some instances.... Keep in mind JB was 3rd on their depth chart when they traded him. While I'm sure he's improving, we're still seeing a lot of the same challenges he had in college. Key here is, the narrative that we have a "WR problem" is a little lazy given all the stats we've seen, and the screen shots provided. 

 

I posted the below a few months ago on the topic of BB's history of QBs since Brady.

Quote

 

2019 Stidham (4th) - current back up

2018 Etling (7th) - waived

2016 Brissett (3rd) - Was 3rd on the depth chart, then traded for a 1st round drafted WR

2014 Garoppolo (2nd) - Kept over JB, then traded to SF, for a second

2011 Ryan Mallet (3rd) - traded for a 6th

2010 Zach Robinson (7th) - eventually waived

2008 Kevin O'Connell (3rd) - eventually waived

2005 Matt Cassell (7th) - traded for the 34th overall pick

2003 Kliff Kingsbury (6th) - eventually waived

2002 Rohan Davy (4th) - eventually waived

 

 

[richard pallo]

Just now, Imgrandojji said:

I honestly would take a swing at that.  It's not like we have much to lose.

That's what I thought.  Nothing really to lose here.   May as well.