The wr problem.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

We are having the same conversation we had after the KC loss in the playoffs with Luck. We don’t have enough playmakers at WR. It has been a problem for awhile. We were supposed to be loaded but then injuries happened and we forgot 2 of them were rookies. One coming off a injury and another missed all of camp. This is going to continue to be a issue until Cain and Campbell develop or we get another stud. We had the same conversation with Luck here last year. For some reason we are jinxed at WR and have been for awhile. This is one area ballard and Reich have not been very good at so far.

[twfish]

You know I have been thinking about this alot and i believe i will start a new thread about it eventually but I do not believe the Colts are good at developing WR's. The only real track record we have is with Grigson but its kinda showing up for Ballard as well but both Cain and Fountain deserve more time.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

The fact Reich doesn’t even seem to know how to use Campbell is weird to me.

[Valpo2004]

19 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

I’m glad someone finally said it besides me. JB is stalled right now in his progress growth chart as a QB imho. We have to give him some time to either mature and grow past what he is now or we need more Olineman who can hold blocks for 5-7 seconds like Brady often gets with his line. I’m not bashing JB in this post either, he is basically playing his rookie season here as a starter. He may take 2-3 years like most other rookies to get up to speed. The question is, does he show the coaching staff that he has that ability to blossom into a top 10 or better QB? Idk 

 

Except that while the situation was poor JB played pretty much a full season with the Colts in 2017.  Some experience should have been gained from that.  

 

In terms of playing time this is roughly his 2nd year.  But being in 4 training camps and practices every day shouldn't be looked at like it's nothing either.  

 

At this point he's been playing long enough that there is something that is part of the fundamentals that takes one from being Alex Smith to franchise QB that he hasn't picked up on it's entirely fair to question if he's actually ever going to pick up it in the first place.  

[MPStack]

2 minutes ago, twfish said:

You know I have been thinking about this alot and i believe i will start a new thread about it eventually but I do not believe the Colts are good at developing WR's. The only real track record we have is with Grigson but its kinda showing up for Ballard as well but both Cain and Fountain deserve more time.

This whole development chatter thing I really find amusing. The NFL is not the MLB or NHL with farm systems. I think with a limited amount of draft picks, players are expected to come in and perform rather quickly. Especially, higher draft choices. If, players aren’t really stepping up after year two, I think you know what you have in a player. 
 

When I think of developing players in the NFL, I think mostly of a QB holding the clipboard for a couple seasons and getting reps in practice. As far the other positions, you have to step up quickly, because that’s what you were drafted for. 

[DougDew]

28 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

We are having the same conversation we had after the KC loss in the playoffs with Luck. We don’t have enough playmakers at WR. It has been a problem for awhile. . For some reason we are jinxed at WR and have been for awhile. This is one area ballard and Reich have not been very good at so far.

Looking at the WR corps, Grigson failed to adequately address the unit after Reggie went down, which was pretty early in his tenure.  Ballard has also failed thus far.  RG tried with Nicks, AJ, and Dorsett and CB has tried with Funchess and Campbell. 

 

We have nice expectations for DF and PC, and that may be all we need to do from this point forward, but the fact remains that through the first half of the season we haven't seen much of an upgrade over the revolving door we've had for years.  Through Grigson's entire tenure and the beginning of Ballard's, the only WR we really have is a near 30 year old who was drafted a few months after Bill Polian left.

 

That pretty much explains the struggles on offense that have occurred over the years, especially during the playoffs where better secondaries play.

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, MPStack said:

This whole development chatter thing I really find amusing. The NFL is not the MLB or NHL with farm systems. I think with a limited amount of draft picks, players are expected to come in and perform rather quickly. Especially, higher draft choices. If, players aren’t really stepping up after year two, I think you know what you have in a player. 
 

When I think of developing players in the NFL, I think mostly of a QB holding the clipboard for a couple seasons and getting reps in practice. As far the other positions, you have to step up quickly, because that’s what you were drafted for. 

Exactly.  A broad generalization, JMO, is that all first rounders should play extensively their rookie years.  2nd and 3rd rounder might take a year or two depending upon the position.  4th round and below are primarily one dimensional rotational players, depth, or special teams.

 

Unless a GM gets lucky with a Robert Mathis, Antione Bethea, or Julian Edelmann, having 4th rounders and below as your weekly starters is probably a sign that there has been a problem addressing the position in the first three rounds of previous drafts. 

 

Good things can happen with mid to late rounder, but to expect them to ever contribute at 1st, 2nd, and maybe even 3rd round level is simply unrealistic, IMO. 

[Jdubu]

2 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Except that while the situation was poor JB played pretty much a full season with the Colts in 2017.  Some experience should have been gained from that.  

 

In terms of playing time this is roughly his 2nd year.  But being in 4 training camps and practices every day shouldn't be looked at like it's nothing either.  

 

At this point he's been playing long enough that there is something that is part of the fundamentals that takes one from being Alex Smith to franchise QB that he hasn't picked up on it's entirely fair to question if he's actually ever going to pick up it in the first place.  

Can’t argue with much of this post either. All I can add is this is the first time that it’s actually his team now. Next year when we start camp, it’s his team and not needing turn it over to Luck when he returns from injury etc... he has always operated in the sense as a place holder and all I have to do is just not lose games, not go out and carry a team. Some could argue that kind of puts your game in a different level.
 

I’m concerned about his ability at this point in his career, backup or starter aside, to go through progressions, for many of the points you’ve made as well. I have zero feeling he will ever be on Lucks plane or ever become that top 5-10 QB for the team. I suppose next offseason, he will get a legit challenge from Kelly (if we retain him on the PS all season without getting poached) and we will see if the practice time Kelly got and time to study the game and stay out of trouble has elevated his abilities. And before the crowd jumps on me, I am not saying nor am I advocating we change JB with Kelly at this point, I’m just pointing out we will see how JB progresses and then allow the two to battle it out in TC. 
 

one thing this coaching staff can do to improve JB’s effectiveness is to give him more quick throwing patterns. Allow him to throw once that foot hits 3 or 5 steps. We did that with Luck and this offense took off. 

[Jdubu]

14 minutes ago, MPStack said:

This whole development chatter thing I really find amusing. The NFL is not the MLB or NHL with farm systems. I think with a limited amount of draft picks, players are expected to come in and perform rather quickly. Especially, higher draft choices. If, players aren’t really stepping up after year two, I think you know what you have in a player. 
 

When I think of developing players in the NFL, I think mostly of a QB holding the clipboard for a couple seasons and getting reps in practice. As far the other positions, you have to step up quickly, because that’s what you were drafted for. 

I’d like to agree with this 100% but if you can look around the league and see guys who were picked later than PC and see that they have been inserted into the line ups and are performing, we can deduce a few things

 

1. we picked the wrong player (GM) 

2. our coaches aren’t utilizing guys to their strengths (coaching)

or 

3. QB play isn’t up to the capability of the system (QB) 

 

Its one of these 3 things and yeah, you could also say it’s a combo of all 3. Could we also say that we drafted these guys for Lucks strengths, not for JB’s? 
 

can we even define what 3 qualities JB brings to the QB role here yet? 
1. tough as heck to bring down

2. great leadership qualities 

3.?

 

Luck

1. great leadership qualities 

2. great deep touch

3. superior processing skills

4. accurate 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

It goes back to the WR coaches and Reich. I give Reich a little bit of a pass because it’s only his second year. The biggest issue was the veteran guy you brought in got injured. Let’s see if things change when he comes back in a couple of weeks. 

It’s not all on JB. We had the same convo last year with Luck.

I agree we are not using at least campbell right. With Cain there is a lot of other factors.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Ballard did address the WR position with a veteran. He got injured but hopefully Funchess comes back strong.  With his injury it put Cain and Campbell in positions they were not ready for. 

 

With the weak WR group I think it makes what JB has done pretty impressive.

[SteelCityColt]

4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Ballard did address the WR position with a veteran. He got injured but hopefully Funchess comes back strong.  With his injury it put Cain and Campbell in positions they were not ready for. 

 

With the weak WR group I think it makes what JB has done pretty impressive.

How do you square WRs getting open but not getting targeted? Is that because they’re “weak”?

[Stephen]

6 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Ballard did address the WR position with a veteran. He got injured but hopefully Funchess comes back strong.  With his injury it put Cain and Campbell in positions they were not ready for. 

 

With the weak WR group I think it makes what JB has done pretty impressive.

Well Campbell  is just not being used to his strength.  Hit him on a slant in space and he is gone. They send him on deep routes which he hasn't  mastered yet and rarely  use him at what he actually  is good at.

[Stephen]

3 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

How do you square WRs getting open but not getting targeted? Is that because they’re “weak”?

If they  are getting  open and are not getting  targeted then it is on the qb.

[krunk]

20 minutes ago, MPStack said:

This whole development chatter thing I really find amusing. The NFL is not the MLB or NHL with farm systems. I think with a limited amount of draft picks, players are expected to come in and perform rather quickly. Especially, higher draft choices. If, players aren’t really stepping up after year two, I think you know what you have in a player. 
 

When I think of developing players in the NFL, I think mostly of a QB holding the clipboard for a couple seasons and getting reps in practice. As far the other positions, you have to step up quickly, because that’s what you were drafted for. 

You find it amusing but you know full well the Colts are going to bring Fountain back.  And you know they aren't getting rid of Cain anytime this year so they seem to be a bit more patient than you are.  If Cain shows anything this year which I'm banking he will then you can expect he'll be back next year as well. They are patient will players who show the talent and the ability along with the other things they look for even if you don't see it immediately before your own eyes. 

[SteelCityColt]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

If they  are getting  open and are not getting  targeted then it is on the qb.

 

I'd suggest reading @Superman's All 22 breakdown in the Week 8 topic then..

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Well Campbell  is just not being used to his strength.  Hit him on a slant in space and he is gone. They send him on deep routes which he hasn't  mastered yet and rarely  use him at what he actually  is good at.

I totally agree. Use him where he can produce until he is ready to go outside. Ballard did mention this in his quarter update as to why he is struggling.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

The WR are not getting wide open all the time. This last Denver game they had them covered looking at the ALL22. That was mainly because they were able to get pressure with their front 4.  There might of been a few times he needed to take the check down but the receivers were covered Sunday.

[SteelCityColt]

1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

The WR are not getting wide open all the time. This last Denver game they had them covered looking at the ALL22. That was mainly because they were able to get pressure with their front 4.  There might of been a few times he needed to take the check down but the receivers were covered Sunday.

 

That's just patently not true. 

[Stephen]

Just now, Chloe6124 said:

The WR are not getting wide open all the time. This last Denver game they had them covered looking at the ALL22. That was mainly because they were able to get pressure with their front 4.  There might of been a few times he needed to take the check down but the receivers were covered Sunday.

Campbell  played 8 snaps sunday so he didn't  get much opportunity. 

[Stephen]

Just now, SteelCityColt said:

 

That's just patently not true. 

So you are saying  the wrs are getting  open all the time because  it doesn't  seem like it.

[SteelCityColt]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

So you are saying  the wrs are getting  open all the time because  it doesn't  seem like it.

 

No I did not say that, but it's not true they were covered on every play. Go look at the breakdown in the week 8 topic.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, krunk said:

You find it amusing but you know full well the Colts are going to bring Fountain back.  And you know they aren't getting rid of Cain anytime this year so they seem to be a bit more patient than you are.  If Cain shows anything this year which I'm banking he will then you can expect he'll be back next year as well. They are patient will players who show the talent and the ability along with the other things they look for even if you don't see it immediately before your own eyes. 

With Cain he is going to have to work his butt off this off season with JB. He is going to have to go find a WR coach to work with like Fountain did last off season. He is going to have to show he wants this. A couple days before the Denver game pascal had a IG story posting of him getting home late and was tired from working hard. Guess what Cain posted. He was at a concert. He needs better work habits.

[Stephen]

Just now, Chloe6124 said:

With Cain he is going to have to work his butt off this off season with JB. He is going to have to go find a WR coach to work with like Fountain did last off season. He is going to have to show he wants this. A couple days before the Denver game pascal has a IG story postinf is Jim getting home late and was tired from working hard. Guess what Cain posted. He was at a concert. He needs better work habits.

To be fair Cain is probably  worn out from  working as hard as he did to get back from injury 

[krunk]

4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

With Cain he is going to have to work his butt off this off season with JB. He is going to have to go find a WR coach to work with like Fountain did last off season. He is going to have to show he wants this. A couple days before the Denver game pascal had a IG story posting of him getting home late and was tired from working hard. Guess what Cain posted. He was at a concert. He needs better work habits.

Could be but we don't know that.  The rest of the season will tell.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, Stephen said:

To be fair Cain is probably  worn out from  working as hard as he did to get back from injury 

Maybe. But watching film doesn’t take much effort. I do think he can improve this offseason when he gets more snaps from JB. He basically took all his snaps in camp and the preseason from Kelly and walker.  That’s one reason pascal has done better. In 2018 he was taking all the snaps with JB as the backup. 

[throwing BBZ]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

If they  are getting  open and are not getting  targeted then it is on the qb.

 

 Incorrect. 
 You left out pass blocking, and progressions by play design.
 When a guy is open in the route also matters. Just because a guy looks open for a moment doesn't mean the QB was supposed to be looking for him at that time.

 

 Our last QB held onto the ball to our dismay, taking career shortening shot after shot. And he waited till guys came out of their breaks deeper downfield trying to use his big arm to get the ball there in time. And the ball sailed, and guys leaped their all only to get their fingertips on the ball (all drops) of course.
  I will score Jacoby by mid next season on his overall ability. Manning threw 100 Int's in his 1st 5 seasons, and was one and done in the Playoffs 7 times.
We can wait to see what practice practice practice, and 17 more games gets our offense. It is only Fair.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

If we didn’t have this same convo with Luck last year I would give some merit to its JB. But this isn’t a new issue. We have had it for awhile. Campbell might turn out great. But wouldn’t of it been nice to have a guy that was nfl ready and not needing a ton of development. The rookie WR this year are for the most part having great years. We took a guy that was a gadget guy that will need time.  Plus he has basically had a loss season with all the injuries. 

[Superman]

This is a rather alarmist topic, IMO. Cain is in his first season (and coming off an ACL, there should be minimal expectations for him, Campbell is a rookie and dealing with various injuries of his own, Pascal is a tough player and hard worker but not an exceptional talent (and has had a couple of nice games despite), and Rogers is a fringe guy who stays on the roster because he's good on STs. Funchess was brought in partly because he would have synced up well with Luck, who retired two weeks before the season started, and then Funchess made a huge clutch play in the opener -- perhaps showing that he can be reliable on big downs -- but got hurt and hasn't played since.

 

This coaching staff has been together for 25 games, including the playoffs. They have a new QB. We're really looking at two young guys who have combined for 11 NFL games, with a lot of injury holding them both back. How are we reaching the conclusion that they don't know how to use and/or develop young receivers???

 

This feels like an agenda-based argument.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

This is a rather alarmist topic, IMO. Cain is in his first season (and coming off an ACL, there should be minimal expectations for him, Campbell is a rookie and dealing with various injuries of his own, Pascal is a tough player and hard worker but not an exceptional talent (and has had a couple of nice games despite), and Rogers is a fringe guy who stays on the roster because he's good on STs. Funchess was brought in partly because he would have synced up well with Luck, who retired two weeks before the season started, and then Funchess made a huge clutch play in the opener -- perhaps showing that he can be reliable on big downs -- but got hurt and hasn't played since.

 

This coaching staff has been together for 25 games, including the playoffs. They have a new QB. We're really looking at two young guys who have combined for 11 NFL games, with a lot of injury holding them both back. How are we reaching the conclusion that they don't know how to use and/or develop young receivers???

 

This feels like an agenda-based argument.

While I totally agree with this it’s baffling we haven’t seen even a glimpse from Cain that there is something there. Campbell I think we have seen a couple flashes. I think injuries have held him back some. I felt before he hurt his abdomen he was close to breaking out. 

[Creekside]

13 hours ago, MPStack said:

Could it be Brissett? T.Y. Hilton’s numbers are the worst in his career thus far in any season. Luck passed for almost 4600 yds 39 TDS with Hilton and Ebron being the main contributors.  Who were the other WRs last season???? 

This is not a bash Brissett post, because I don’t believe he’s an above average starter. He’s a good game manager with limitations. 

 

The offense has a lot of weapons, it’s just a matter of Brissett taking what’s given to him, by making proper reads. 
 

 

Thanks for your brand new take on things.

 

"Could it be Brissett"? ..... Hmmmm..............

[SteelCityColt]

35 minutes ago, Superman said:

This feels like an agenda-based argument.

Based on a false premise, that oddly gets ignored when challenged. 

[Superman]

20 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

While I totally agree with this it’s baffling we haven’t seen even a glimpse from Cain that there is something there. Campbell I think we have seen a couple flashes. I think injuries have held him back some. I felt before he hurt his abdomen he was close to breaking out. 

 

He's a year removed from an ACL tear, and he's played six NFL games, and he's running routes that our QB doesn't like to throw. It's not very difficult to understand.

 

Campbell has played five NFL games, he's on the field for 25% of the offensive snaps so far, and he has been battling through various injuries.

 

We're using these two guys as evidence that the Colts aren't doing a good job of using and developing young WRs, and we're saying that it's a waste to draft receivers because they haven't been productive.

 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

Based on a false premise, that oddly gets ignored when challenged. 

 

Yup. Like I said yesterday, just because the QB doesn't throw the ball doesn't mean no one is open.

 

And just to be clear, there were plenty of pass plays Sunday where no one was open and JB had to scramble or throw the ball away. The receivers weren't great against Denver. But neither was JB. Let's stop pushing this narrative that everyone is letting JB down.

[SteelCityColt]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yup. Like I said yesterday, just because the QB doesn't throw the ball doesn't mean no one is open.

 

And just to be clear, there were plenty of pass plays Sunday where no one was open and JB had to scramble or throw the ball away. The receivers weren't great against Denver. But neither was JB. Let's stop pushing this narrative that everyone is letting JB down.

That was one of the more impressive things yesterday. Brissett’s ability to pick up yards with his legs without taking undue risk.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Yup. Like I said yesterday, just because the QB doesn't throw the ball doesn't mean no one is open.

 

And just to be clear, there were plenty of pass plays Sunday where no one was open and JB had to scramble or throw the ball away. The receivers weren't great against Denver. But neither was JB. Let's stop pushing this narrative that everyone is letting JB down.

I don’t think anyone has done that. The thing is everyone wasn’t great Sunday and Denver’s defense was elite. When I say everyone wasn’t great I mean the WR, the QB, bad blocking by WR and TE. Plus coaching didn’t adjust within the game. It seems that people who are talking bad about Jacoby are the ones ignoring the total picture.  

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I don’t think anyone has done that.

 

Plenty have.

 

Quote

The thing is everyone wasn’t great Sunday and Denver’s defense was elite. When I say everyone wasn’t great I mean the WR, the QB, bad blocking by WR and TE. Plus coaching didn’t adjust within the game. It seems that people who are talking bad about Jacoby are the ones ignoring the total picture.  

 

Stop. I'm not talking bad about Jacoby besides saying Jacoby didn't play a good game. Because he didn't.

 

I literally just said the receivers weren't good. I was critical of Reich's decision making and play calling. The OL gave up some pressure (but I don't think they were as bad as others have said). And that's just the offense.

 

Please explain how I'm "ignoring the total picture."

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yup. Like I said yesterday, just because the QB doesn't throw the ball doesn't mean no one is open.

 

And just to be clear, there were plenty of pass plays Sunday where no one was open and JB had to scramble or throw the ball away. The receivers weren't great against Denver. But neither was JB. Let's stop pushing this narrative that everyone is letting JB down.

I think there is an equal, maybe even more pervasive, argument that says we need to move on from JB under the premise that Cain and Pascal can play at a level near Reggie Wayne.

 

IMO, this isn't a tough thing to analyze. 

 

Our passing game is being played with a 3rd rounder at QB and mainly 6th rounders/UDFA at WR, and an inconsistent guy at TE.  And it is what it has been with an Oline that's stacked with three 1st and one high 2nd rounder.

 

And I'm not saying that to push a narrative.  That's the situation.

[Superman]

Just now, DougDew said:

I think there is an equal, maybe even more pervasive, argument that says we need to move on from JB under the premise that Cain and Pascal can play at a level near Reggie Wayne.

 

IMO, this isn't a tough thing to analyze. 

 

Our passing game is being played with a 3rd rounder at QB and mainly 6th rounders/UDFA at WR, and an inconsistent guy at TE.  And it is what it has been with an Oline that's stacked with three 1st and one high 2nd rounder.

 

And I'm not saying that to push a narrative.  That's the situation.

 

The underlined is obvious hyperbole (right?), so I'm ignoring it.

 

The bolded is a strawman. 'JB has missed open receivers and needs to be better at anticipating openings and going downfield' is very different from 'the Colts need to move on from JB.'

 

'I'm not sure JB is ever going to be a very advanced passer' is very different from 'the Colts need to move on from JB.'

 

So, tie together a strawman with a hyperbolic statement, and what you do have? The second half of your post is fine, but the first half is general nonsense that favors arguing the extreme rather than having a real conversation about the QB play.

[MPStack]

28 minutes ago, egg said:

 

Thanks for your brand new take on things.

 

"Could it be Brissett"? ..... Hmmmm..............

Read entire post! Don’t be an egg head.