The wr problem.

[Stephen]

What is the issue with our wrs? We know Campbell  has had some injuries,  but even when he is out there he isn't  used on slants or rarely evenly targeted.

Cain wasn't  even active and they trotted no separation  Roger's out there and he got shut down. Pascal is a wr 3 at best.

Don't think Dulin has been used in the offense.

[CoachLite]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

What is the issue with our wrs? We know Campbell  has had some injuries,  but even when he is out there he isn't  used on slants or rarely evenly targeted.

Cain wasn't  even active and they trotted no separation  Roger's out there and he got shut down. Pascal is a wr 3 at best.

Don't think Dulin has been used in the offense.

Just wait.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I understand Campbell some. He missed all of training camp and then got injueed again. We need to see him show something the last half of the season. So far I have not seen Reich use him much in the slot like he should be.  He needs more targets. 

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, Stephen said:

What is the issue with our wrs?

 

Simple:

 

UDFA, UDFA, UDFA, 6th rounder, 5th rounder.

 

Funchess and Ebron were cast offs from the teams that drafted them.  Consistency maybe?

 

Campbell, a 3rd rounder, is a rookie.

[jameszeigler834]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Simple:

 

UDFA, UDFA, UDFA, 6th rounder, 5th rounder.

 

Funchess and Ebron were cast offs from the teams that drafted them.  Consistency maybe?

 

Campbell, a 3rd rounder, is a rookie.

2nd rounder.

[MB-ColtsFan]

Teams consistently gash us with the pass out in the flat. 

 

Opponent CB's and LB's really only have to concentrate on the quick flanker screen or the midrange pass.  Rarely have to defend anything short.  That can also contribute to lack of separation, in my opinion.

 

Whether it's JB's shortcoming in not being able to throw it well, or Reich just not calling it, I wish we would see a screen or flare a lot more often.  We have more than one RB that can catch them.

[will426]

it’s not the receivers... JB is missing reads and reich is calling everything that favors the Run even his pass concepts 

[Dasteez]

19 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Simple:

 

UDFA, UDFA, UDFA, 6th rounder, 5th rounder.

 

Funchess and Ebron were cast offs from the teams that drafted them.  Consistency maybe?

 

Campbell, a 3rd rounder, is a rookie.

I don’t disagree with your underlying point that we lack talent at WR, however draft position does not tell the whole story. Julian Edelman was a 7th round pick and I’d take him over most 2nd - 3rd rounders out there.  

[TheMiz]

4 minutes ago, will426 said:

it’s not the receivers... JB is missing reads and reich is calling everything that favors the Run even his pass concepts 

I agree, I don't think the issue is the receivers. The QB can't go through progressions quick enough and doesn't have the experience to anticipate throws, meaning he has to wait til people are obviously open.

The good side of that is that the team has proven it can win despite that, and JB obviously has the arm talent to get it done 

[EastStreet]

IF you agree that JB struggles with progressions....

and 

IF you agree that TY and TE are typically the 1st read or two (in addition to check down)

 

then 

 

You should not be surprised other WRs have little production. Perhaps it's not all a WR problem...

 

The Houston gameplan actually had a few 1st reads to Pascal (because they were blanketing TY), and what do you know... Pascal was open and produced.

 

Campbell has been in and out of training camp, and also out games this season. He's still got a higher catch rate than TY... Cain had some very awful targets from JB in the limited number of throws he got, so pretty hard to judge him too. He also had a pretty high proportion of deep routes (and the lowest % of snaps from slot than any WR) which as we know, JB doesn't throw deep alot.

 

Funchess has one drop in his 5 targets which is higher than Ebron's 13% drop average. I'm sure Funch will get more 1st read targets just because of the nature of Reich's possession type offense this year, so hopefully at least he'll get the opportunity. He'll be basically another Doyle or Ebron.

[MPStack]

Could it be Brissett? T.Y. Hilton’s numbers are the worst in his career thus far in any season. Luck passed for almost 4600 yds 39 TDS with Hilton and Ebron being the main contributors.  Who were the other WRs last season???? 

This is not a bash Brissett post, because I don’t believe he’s an above average starter. He’s a good game manager with limitations. 

 

The offense has a lot of weapons, it’s just a matter of Brissett taking what’s given to him, by making proper reads. 
 

[EastStreet]

I'll add in the this from Kevin Bowen from the fan, based on all22 from Houston.

 

Quote

We’ve had a lot of questions over the past week on why Deon Cain hasn’t been more involved. Since Week Two, Cain has had just 2 catches, on 10 targets, in 199 snaps played. Against the Texans, he didn’t have a single target in 32 snaps. In going back and looking at the All-22 film of that game, it’s clear Cain just isn’t a consistently high option in the progressions (for a variety of reasons).

 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

 

Simple:

 

UDFA, UDFA, UDFA, 6th rounder, 5th rounder.

 

Funchess and Ebron were cast offs from the teams that drafted them.  Consistency maybe?

 

Campbell, a 3rd rounder, is a rookie.

i agree draft picks sometimes take a few years to develop, only proven talent is ty

[BigQungus]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

 

Simple:

 

UDFA, UDFA, UDFA, 6th rounder, 5th rounder.

 

Funchess and Ebron were cast offs from the teams that drafted them.  Consistency maybe?

 

Campbell, a 3rd rounder, is a rookie.

 

Funchess has been hurt since Week 1. 

 

Also, Campbell is a 2nd rounder, not a 3rd rounder

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'll add in the this from Kevin Bowen from the fan, based on all22 from Houston.

 

 

You didn’t post the rest of what he said. He mentioned trust and also Cain isn’t completing crisp routes. I don’t know if he said that in the article but he did on his podcast.

[MPStack]

1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

You didn’t post the rest of what he said. He mentioned trust and also Cain isn’t completing crisp routes. I don’t know if he said that in the article but he did on his podcast.

Cain had issues with running routes and drops at Clemson.  Probably why he lasted until Rd 6. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, MPStack said:

Cain had issues with running routes and drops at Clemson.  Probably why he lasted until Rd 6. 

That’s interesting.  He needs more developing. He wouldn’t of sat out the game  if he was running great routes and was getting seperation.

[NewColtsFan]

5 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Cain had issues with running routes and drops at Clemson.  Probably why he lasted until Rd 6. 

The main reason he lasted till the 6th round....    off the field...

 

Weed.

 

[Hoosiernsavga]

The problem at WR is the injuries from the start with Funchess, Fountain, and Campbell who would all be in the rotation if they were healthy. 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Dasteez said:

I don’t disagree with your underlying point that we lack talent at WR, however draft position does not tell the whole story. Julian Edelman was a 7th round pick and I’d take him over most 2nd - 3rd rounders out there.  

There will always be exceptions.  Brady was a 6th round pick.  Sometimes you get a gem in the later rounds and duds in the earlier rounds.  It happens.  The point is we don't have enough talented WR's.  We can only hope that Funchess comes back and is effective.  We are really going to need him down the stretch.  The other guys are just that other guys.  Hopefully Campbell can contribute sooner rather than later.  

[MPStack]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The main reason he lasted till the 6th round....    off the field...

 

Weed.

 

Correct and he was punished and kept his nose clean his last season. Think that would drop him all the way to the 6th Rd if he was the talent some say he is? maybe, 3rd or 4th. 
 

Weaknesses after last season. Take it however you want. 

 

Failed to post expected production jump after taking over WR1 duties from Mike Williams

Targeted more but production declined in almost every meaningful category

Will need to expand his route tree as a pro

Doesn't separate as much as he could underneath

Can run routes with more urgency and suddenness

Fluctuations with focus has plagued him

Has seen drop rate increase in each of the last two seasons

Needs to play stronger through his routes

Appeared to get flustered at times by length and size across from him

Penalized 10 times over three years with a majority being false starts

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, MPStack said:

Could it be Brissett? T.Y. Hilton’s numbers are the worst in his career thus far in any season. Luck passed for almost 4600 yds 39 TDS with Hilton and Ebron being the main contributors.  Who were the other WRs last season???? 

This is not a bash Brissett post, because I don’t believe he’s an above average starter. He’s a good game manager with limitations. 

 

The offense has a lot of weapons, it’s just of a matter of Brissett taking what’s given to him, by making proper reads. 
 

To go further on the TY topic.

 

Last year

5.4 receptions per game

8.6 targets per game

16.7 yards per reception

5.2 yards of yac per reception

90.7 yards per game

1.6 Big plays (20+ yards) per game

18.6% of total QB targets

 

This year

5.3 receptions per game

7.7 targets per game

11.3 yards per reception

4.2 yards of yac per reception

60 yards per game

0.67 Big plays (20+ yards) per game

19.8% of total QB targets

 

Biggest takeaway, a lot less yards, yards per reception, and "big" plays, on the same amount of catches per game.

[EastStreet]

26 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You didn’t post the rest of what he said. He mentioned trust and also Cain isn’t completing crisp routes. I don’t know if he said that in the article but he did on his podcast.

He did not say that about the Houston game all22. He said that Frank Reich said he needed to improve his route running a few weeks before the Houston game.

[holeymoley99]

I'm surprised former 3rd rd pick Chad Williams hasn't come up from practice squad yet in place of Dulin who isnt doing much. Rogers is a number 5 at best and if not for s.t. would be out of the NFL, once Funchess and Campbell and back to 100% to go with T.Y. unit will be fine. Cain is a step off coming back from injury and but is drawing long P.I. penalties when it is aired out to him and on target. Pascal is hot and cold but offers much more then Rogers.  We also have Marcus Johnson on p.s too

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Correct and he was punished and kept his nose clean his last season. Think that would drop him all the way to the 6th Rd if he was the talent some say he is? maybe, 3rd or 4th. 
 

Weaknesses after last season. Take it however you want. 

 

Failed to post expected production jump after taking over WR1 duties from Mike Williams

Targeted more but production declined in almost every meaningful category

Will need to expand his route tree as a pro

Doesn't separate as much as he could underneath

Can run routes with more urgency and suddenness

Fluctuations with focus has plagued him

Has seen drop rate increase in each of the last two seasons

Needs to play stronger through his routes

Appeared to get flustered at times by length and size across from him

Penalized 10 times over three years with a majority being false starts

 

I watched Clemson quite a bit in 2015 (his freshman year), and a bit his sophomore year, and quite a bit his junior (last) season. Even saw a couple Clemson games in person. I thought he'd be a legit star after his sophomore season. I'd say that there are two reasons for his drop off in performance.

 

The main reason is simply because Watson left for the NFL lol. Bryant, who replaced him in 2017 wasn't good at all (that's why he got replaced in 2018 by a true frosh) at the time. Bryant had 2800 yards in 2017 vs Watson who had 4600 in 2016 (huge difference). Second, they started using him differently after Watson left. Instead of more deep X and slot go routes, they ran him a lot more in shallow and crossing routes. He actually had 20 more catches his junior year, but not a lot more yards. His only regression was YPC.

 

In short, he excels deeper down field, which Bryant did not, and nor does JB (this year). Simply my opinion, but he's never going to do well unless we open the offense.

[Horseshoelife19]

I think they should bring Marcus Johnson up to the active roster!!!!

[LockeDown]

Venturi said JB played a great game. Denver was doing a number on our Oline and JB was finding ways to elude them and get the play off. I think Reich was right. He knew Funchess was going to be good and I think that will put a natural order back to our offense.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, will426 said:

it’s not the receivers... JB is missing reads and reich is calling everything that favors the Run even his pass concepts 

Get JB a true WR 2 and then maybe he would throw downfield more. TY Hilton is the only great WR we have, the other WR's are average at best. I like our TE's but even Ebron drops easy balls. Doyle is solid but lacks speed.

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Get JB a true WR 2 and then maybe he would throw downfield more. TY Hilton is the only great WR we have, the other WR's are average at best. I like our TE's but even Ebron drops easy balls. Doyle is solid but lacks speed.

Doyle is ranked 4th in the league at separation, so speed really isn't an issue, and he's open plenty. 

 

Not buying the WR2 narrative as a reason we're not going deep. TY's big decrease in yards per catch is pretty telling. He's not all of a sudden worse than last year. His catch % is up from 63% to 70%. His big plays (20+ yards) are down by over 50%. Logic would say that either 1) Frank is not calling deep plays because he lacks confidence, or 2) JB is going with shallow 1st and 2nd reads.

 

And another blurb on Cain.... While Reich said in week 4 that he needed to improve on his route running, he also was highly complimentary on his "natural gift" to beat the press at the line (which means he easily gets past the CB). If he's burning the CB and requires S help, that's a huge benefit itself if only to create space for other WRs/TEs in the seam. 

[aaron11]

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle is ranked 4th in the league at separation, so speed really isn't an issue, and he's open plenty. 

doyle is usually wide open, i think defenses dont worry about getting tight coverage on him.  

[DougDew]

11 hours ago, Dasteez said:

I don’t disagree with your underlying point that we lack talent at WR, however draft position does not tell the whole story. Julian Edelman was a 7th round pick and I’d take him over most 2nd - 3rd rounders out there.  

There are always exceptions.  That doesn't negate the rule.

[DougDew]

10 hours ago, BigQungus said:

 

Funchess has been hurt since Week 1. 

 

Also, Campbell is a 2nd rounder, not a 3rd rounder

I agree.  So far, neither has been available or impactful.  Campbell is a rookie, so I wouldn't say his lack of production is a surprise.

 

Through 7 games, we've been playing with a bunch of scrubs, but somehow there is a mystery as to what the problem is?

[aaron11]

11 hours ago, Dasteez said:

I don’t disagree with your underlying point that we lack talent at WR, however draft position does not tell the whole story. Julian Edelman was a 7th round pick and I’d take him over most 2nd - 3rd rounders out there.  

he did not even play WR in college he was a QB

 

the patriots did not know what they were going to do with him when they drafted him.  they were just taking a flyer when they picked him, he has even played some corner back for the patriots 

[MPStack]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I agree.  So far, neither has been available or impactful.  Campbell is a rookie, so I wouldn't say his lack of production is a surprise.

 

Through 7 games, we've been playing with a bunch of scrubs, but somehow there is a mystery as to what the problem is?

In 3 or 4 more years, they should hopefully

all be developed! 
 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I am hoping Campbell stays healthy the rest of the year.  Sirriani did say this week they want to get him more involved. Hopefully Funchess is back at practice today.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Doyle has always been good at finding the open spot on the field.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

10 hours ago, EastStreet said:

He did not say that about the Houston game all22. He said that Frank Reich said he needed to improve his route running a few weeks before the Houston game.

I heard him go more in depth about why he wasn’t higher on the reads. I just can’t remember where. I thought it was his podcast Monday this week. 

[JR Indy]

Chris Ballard is saying one thing I LIKE THEM DRAFT PICKS. But the coaching staff does not. (Not talking about Frank)Name me a Rookie WR that’s playing well for another team. That same rookie would be in the same position that Paris Campbell and Deion Cain if they played for the Colts.

 I am getting to the point as a fan that I hope they don’t draft a W.R. because it’s a wasted pick . They’re not going to play them, or if they do they will not target them.

 

If the Colts played and target these rookies. It would take Jacoby quality of play to a higher level. It’s hard to play the run when you got some real home run threats outside of TY

[Valpo2004]

10 hours ago, EastStreet said:

To go further on the TY topic.

 

Last year

5.4 receptions per game

8.6 targets per game

16.7 yards per reception

5.2 yards of yac per reception

90.7 yards per game

1.6 Big plays (20+ yards) per game

18.6% of total QB targets

 

This year

5.3 receptions per game

7.7 targets per game

11.3 yards per reception

4.2 yards of yac per reception

60 yards per game

0.67 Big plays (20+ yards) per game

19.8% of total QB targets

 

Biggest takeaway, a lot less yards, yards per reception, and "big" plays, on the same amount of catches per game.

 

This.  

 

I think JB is basically an Alex Smith type QB. He just doesn't connect deep with TY throws a bunch of short stuff.  

 

Quick passes on short routes are important, but eventually you have to test them deep.  It doesn't feel like JB has the downfield accuracy for that.  Either that or the coaches can't trust that he'll be able to see his downfield man is covered and make his 2nd and third reads.   

[Jdubu]

11 hours ago, will426 said:

it’s not the receivers... JB is missing reads and reich is calling everything that favors the Run even his pass concepts 

I’m glad someone finally said it besides me. JB is stalled right now in his progress growth chart as a QB imho. We have to give him some time to either mature and grow past what he is now or we need more Olineman who can hold blocks for 5-7 seconds like Brady often gets with his line. I’m not bashing JB in this post either, he is basically playing his rookie season here as a starter. He may take 2-3 years like most other rookies to get up to speed. The question is, does he show the coaching staff that he has that ability to blossom into a top 10 or better QB? Idk 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I'll add in the this from Kevin Bowen from the fan, based on all22 from Houston.

 

 

See the next poster cause that was my question, where is the rest of the answer? 

10 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

You didn’t post the rest of what he said. He mentioned trust and also Cain isn’t completing crisp routes. I don’t know if he said that in the article but he did on his podcast.

I’d love to watch the all22 on these routes run by all the receivers just to see what’s taking place past the line of scrimmage. I’ve barked about it multiple times that we are either running too long of routes for the time the oline is giving JB to find them or they are not giving JB a target to hit with because they aren’t running good routes. I mean, not every team can just blanket our guys 90% of the times and not be a top 3 passing defense. I won’t count the Denver game, they have a legit solid defense. But you know there is more to a story than the nonsense answer Reich gave on Cain not being the matchup in this game so that’s why he was a healthy scratch. Cain obviously isn’t performing the traits the team expects of him on the field right now or poor passes and no looks from JB wouldn’t cause him a missed game, poor routes and half attempts will. 

9 hours ago, LockeDown said:

Venturi said JB played a great game. Denver was doing a number on our Oline and JB was finding ways to elude them and get the play off. I think Reich was right. He knew Funchess was going to be good and I think that will put a natural order back to our offense.

I think until some people come to realize Luck is gone and JB is nowhere near the talent he was, the team will have struggles that are based on a QB playing basically his first year as a starter. This is the first time the weight is on his shoulders that it’s his team win or bust. That’s an added pressure. I still unfortunately think this offensive scheme is built for Lucks play vs JB’s abilities currently. Maybe JB isn’t good at hitting the 3-5 yard slants of a flashing across the middle WR because we don’t see a lot of that. We know we still aren’t good at performing a screen play since around 2005. I’d expect us to use Doyle much much more than he is being used right now but maybe we get Funches back and he allows the offense to click better for JB IDK. But more to Venturis point, the oline has got to play better moving forward. 

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle is ranked 4th in the league at separation, so speed really isn't an issue, and he's open plenty. 

 

Not buying the WR2 narrative as a reason we're not going deep. TY's big decrease in yards per catch is pretty telling. He's not all of a sudden worse than last year. His catch % is up from 63% to 70%. His big plays (20+ yards) are down by over 50%. Logic would say that either 1) Frank is not calling deep plays because he lacks confidence, or 2) JB is going with shallow 1st and 2nd reads.

 

And another blurb on Cain.... While Reich said in week 4 that he needed to improve on his route running, he also was highly complimentary on his "natural gift" to beat the press at the line (which means he easily gets past the CB). If he's burning the CB and requires S help, that's a huge benefit itself if only to create space for other WRs/TEs in the seam. 

We don’t always agree on the forum here but I couldn’t has said any of this better than you just did. Wr’s may own some of the blame to the offense looking like it is but all of these facts kinda point to the fact that Luck is t throwing in this offense anymoreJB is and that’s caused many of these issues. Maybe they get better with reps, maybe not but as of not, JB right now isn’t showing us to be our high capacity starter for the future, only a caretaker of the ball. I hope he develops that quicker ability to process the reads or that his oline holds blocks 2 seconds longer than they are. JB has been acceptable relative to what the outcomes have been (wins and low TO rate) but why pay TY the next contract money if he isn’t going to be able to produce in the top 5-10 of receivers?