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Who is a franchise QB and who's not? Where does Brissett fall?

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9 minutes ago, stitches said:

He's a better, more accurate thrower of the football, he's better at isolating what's there and eliminating what's not there and he's better going through his progressions. Better at anticipation throws. 

 

Hi Stitches, I always enjoy reading your topics.

 

While I am not a big fan of Cousins, I think he may be a better QB than some of those listed in the "Franchise QB" category. I question his leadership and his poise under pressure but he is accurate and can make any throw. (However, I want the Vikes to draft a QB of the future in 2020.)

 

As for Brissett, he is wait and see. Give him through the end of the year to determine what he is.

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2 hours ago, Peterk2011 said:

There are multiple possible way to approach the OP question. One can say (and hard to argue with that), that in a 32 teams league, the quality of quarterbacking is defined by the players from 1 thru 32, so franchise QB's are the top 10 (top 15) quarterbacks in the leage, regardless of how good the 10th (15th) is. Others can say there are certain traits, abilities that make franchise QBs. Leadership, mental toughness, football smartness, technic, accuracy, touch, pocket presence / awareness, footwork, ability to read defenses pre- and post snap, etc. Other's can say that a franchise QB has to have certain added +W potential without added -L-s, so if a quarterback adds +2 or more wins total (without -2L-s) he is a franchise QB.

 

I'm in the middle group. I don't think there is a specific number of franchise QBs in the league at any given moment. At some point there might be 5 of them, at other points there might be 25. It's all about the qualities and skills of the QBs in the league. And I think you can have franchise QBs on losing teams - the QB is by far the most important position on the team, but it's not more important than the combination of all other position. Thus for me it's possible to have an amazing QB starting for a losing team with horrible roster all around him. 

 

 

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For me, it's a little bit of all. The bar is certainly below the Manning bar, but a franchise QB has to be able to win games himself, at least here and there. And there should not be - lets say - 15 better quarterbacks than him. And he has to check at least the majority of those traits/abilities I mentioned above.

 

Agree with the 1st part, disagree with the second part. 

 

 

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So, for me Dak Prescott is not a franchise QB for example. Even the best quarterbacks need some support, but Prescott needs more than that. He's been in the league for 3.5 years, and I barely remember a game when he missed Elliot, and/or the full (elite) oline and / or an elite receiver, and he didn't struggle. He is not far from being a franchise QB, he doesn't need much more, but after 3.5 years, I am not sure he'll ever be one. Jared Goff is somewhat similar, he doen't need much more neither, but I am not sure about him yet too.

 

That's understandable and reasonable. I had to do a similar evaluation myself and as I said he was on the limit for me so I wouldn't fault anyone thinking either way. I can see the argument here.  

 

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Regarding Brissett, he is definitely not a franchise QB. The big question is, if there is a "yet", or there is a period without a "yet". I don't know. Every young QB is different, some is more of a baller, some is more of a game manager in the beginning, some seem to have "it" from the beginning, but then gradually regresses, some does not seem to have "it" in the beginning, but gradually improves. I love a lot about Jacoby. I think he is mentally ideal to be a good QB, he has a natural ability to be careful with the ball and avoid foolish mistakes. I think he has fine pocket awareness, I think he is accurate enough, and I think he checks every "leadership" type boxes. However, he needs to improve his touch (I saw some improvement there, but not enough yet), he needs to have better anticipation (not much improvement yet), he has to learn to use his head & eyes to manipulate defenders, make quicker decisions, etc. Without these, he'll never be a threat to good secondaries. Can he improve in these areas? I honestly, don't know. The sample size is too small to predict. There has been only a handful of young quarterbacks of his style - sure handed, mentally tough, accurate, not making mistakes, but quite limited in balling it out - I've seen before, who got the a chance to play long enough to have a chance to improve. Tom Brady, Alex Smith, Marcus Mariota come to my mind. One become a first ballott HOF, the other become an OK to fine "game manager" (who I put in the franchise QB bracket), and the third is just fading out of the league. Brissett can end up being anywhere between Mariota and Brady. Since he has Reich, I'd say he has a good chance to be better than Mariota, on the other hand, there is almost zero chance for him - for anyone - to become the next Brady.

 

So, what would I do with Jacoby? I would give him the chance, unless he falls off the cliff quickly during the remaining games of the season. I would give him the chance, and I would monitor his progress closely. And I would definitely bring in real competition, which means, that although I would not go "all in" in the next draft for a new QB, I would not hesitate to draft a top tier guy - with first or second round grade - if someone I like is falling in my hands, or it won't cost a fortune to trade up and grab him.

 

 

There is a "yet" for me with Brissett. He can change my mind and this is why I'm not willing to go with the Chad-fans here. I want Jacoby to have every opportunity to show what he can do and to grow as the season progresses. (and maybe even get the next season too) 

 

I agree with huge parts of your evaluation of Brissett as he is now, too. I see the same deficiencies and strengths from him, but if he doesn't improve IMO we should be looking for a replacement, because I don't want us to tie ourselves to this type of play from the QB position for the next half a decade.  

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13 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I certainly wouldn't classify JG as a franchise guy yet. In his defense, his supporting cast on O isn't great. Most people would struggle to name any of their RBs are WRs. I do think he has a higher upside than JB. 

Jimmy Garoppolo is definitely a franchise QB.  The 49ers have gone all in on the guy in a way we have a luxury of not having to do yet with JB7

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Dak has been better than Jacoby in most categories.  he does have more picks but he has more attempts and yards per attempt too

 

he has a lot more yards per game as well

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11 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Wait and see with Brissett. I’m waiting to see him have those signature moments that Luck had. Those moments where he wills the team to a victory after being down or makes an incredible throw when we need it.

Well, we weren't "down" but the 2 4th quarter drives against Atlanta to prevent the Falcons from getting back into the game when they were driving down the field at will was excellent work by both the coach and QB.

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2 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Hi Stitches, I always enjoy reading your topics.

 

While I am not a big fan of Cousins, I think he may be a better QB than some of those listed in the "Franchise QB" category. I question his leadership and his poise under pressure but he is accurate and can make any throw. (However, I want the Vikes to draft a QB of the future in 2020.)

 

As for Brissett, he is wait and see. Give him through the end of the year to determine what he is.

 

Him along with Carr is on top of my non-franchise QB tier. He is a capable starter in the league(I will take him over Brissett right now for example), but IMO you will pretty much always be at a disadvantage at QB come playoff time with him. And he's getting paid a ton of money. This is really the biggest knock here... I don't mind franchise QBs being paid a ton, I love Cousins level QBs if they are on rookie contracts... Cousins at 27-30M is a big no from me. You will need an exceptional defense and playmakers on offense to make up for it IMO. Now, as it happens the Vikings might actually be the rare team that has enough talent spread all around the roster to overcome it and be legitimate superbowl contender, but I still wouldn't feel comfortable with him in the playoffs. 

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5 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

- the QB is by far the most important position on the team, but it's not more important than the combination of all other position. 

 

This should be in bold letters at the beginning of every future QB discussion!

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9 minutes ago, stitches said:

And he's getting paid a ton of money. This is really the biggest knock here...

 

Completely agree there.

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1 minute ago, NFLfan said:

 

Completely agree there.

How do Vikings fans feel in general about the prospect of getting new QB? Is this a prevailing feeling among Vikings fans? Do you think your front office actually shares that view or will they keep going with Cousins even after this year? 

 

There seems to be a growing number of teams that might want a QB this year. It's possible we get something like... 5-6 QBs drafted in the first round, which would be crazy. 

 

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8 hours ago, pacolts56 said:

Sorry....but you're overstating how bad Garoppolo's supporting cast is. 

 

George Kittle is an excellent all-around TE, and the 49ers have a very solid committee of RBs in Tevin Coleman, Matt Brieda and Raheem Mostert. They shredded through the Aaron Donald-led Rams defense last week and have the 2nd rated rushing attack in the NFL.....so their O-line can't be that bad either.

 

And behind it all....Kyle Shanahan is an excellent play caller, as well.

 

They're also #2 in total defense.... #1 in pass and #6 in rushing.

 

I can see why one might give the nod to Garroppolo at this point but I don't agree that there is THAT large a degree of separation in talent and capability between he and Brissett....and Jimmy G is hardly the only reason the 49ers are 5-0.

 

For me....Brissett is in the "wait and see" category....so the balance of this season will tell us a lot.

 

JB is also a wait and see to me as well. Like I've said several times this week, I could see him exploiting Houston's pass D, and having a big "coming out" game today.

 

On the 49ers. Their supporting cast on O isn't horrible, but Indy has a pretty clear advantage.

 

OL: Colts arguably the best OL in the league. SF's OL was rated in the bottom half of the league to start the season, but have improved a lot. They are rated pretty decent in pass blocking, but they are getting a big boost from JG being top 5 in TTT (time to throw) at 2.47. JB mean while is making it tougher on our OL at being bottom 5 in TTT (2.81). And as most know, TTT is extremely important in an offense like Reich's. Just goes to show you how good our OL has been at pass protection. And you would think with a longer TTT, we'd have good air yards. Nope, we're almost bottom of the NFL with 4.2 air yards on average. That is bad by itself, but super bad given the TTT. Anyway, clear OL advantage to Indy

 

RB: I'll say this is even based on team stats, but give me Mack over a running back by committee most days. SF rushing has also put the ball on the ground a decent amount of time (tied for 3rd most fumbles in the league) while we have 1. Then throw in Hines who is a dual threat and catches the ball really well. SF uses their RBs in the passing game as well, but Hines is getting a bigger individual load. I say slight advantage to Indy.

 

TE: I love Kittles. Great target, and he's hilarious. But he's really all they have at TE. And he's had his share of drops in the past too. The next closest SF TE has 8 yards on the year. Meanwhile, we have the league leader in TDs last year, Doyle who was a pro bowler the year before he was injured, and MAC who is a tremendous talent on his own. Clear advantage to Indy.

 

WR: Goodwin, who is SF's #1 WR now, is pretty single threaded IMO. Historically not a great catch rate, and very inconsistent. Their #2 WR Samuel, I really like, but he's a rookie and it's going to take time. Their 3rd WR (Pettis) is a 2nd year guy, and is simply not very good. While we're missing Funch, we still have TY (pro bowler), two talented newbies, 2 consistent vets. Mixed with TE and RB catching threats, Indy has a big advantage IMO in receiving. 

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29 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Jimmy Garoppolo is definitely a franchise QB.  The 49ers have gone all in on the guy in a way we have a luxury of not having to do yet with JB7

I agree they've went all in on him, but he has a lot to prove, just like JB. 

Just because they've went all in, doesn't mean he's a franchise guy, just means he's getting franchise guy money lol. 

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33 minutes ago, stitches said:

He's a better, more accurate thrower of the football, he's better at isolating what's there and eliminating what's not there and he's better going through his progressions. Better at anticipation throws. 

This touches upon an area between Garroppolo and Brissett where I do agree Jimmy is better at this point...and he also has a smoother ability to roll out and deliver his throws... a trait even many great QBs lacked.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with Jacoby simply being more patient behind an O-line that is quite capable and IS (2nd in fewest sacks allowed) giving him time to read through his progressions. And I agree...his recognition has room to grow.

 

But let's remember....the 2017 season's O-line for the Colts was soggy toilet paper compared to now....and Jacoby ran for his life nearly the entire time.

 

So I'm leaving room for him to settle down a bit...and along with growing chemistry between himself and ALL of his weapons, namely these young WRs.... maximizing his potential as our QB. 

 

If he winds up being a Top 15ish QB, and Ballard, Reich and Eberflus continue on their GM/Coaching trajectory with this young roster and a truly balanced approach... I believe it can pay off with a Super Bowl(s?). 

 

But we can't just microwave these things.

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10 minutes ago, pacolts56 said:

This touches upon an area between Garroppolo and Brissett where I do agree Jimmy is better at this point...and he also has a smoother ability to roll out and deliver his throws... a trait even many great QBs lacked.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with Jacoby simply being more patient behind an O-line that is quite capable and IS (2nd in fewest sacks allowed) giving him time to read through his progressions. And I agree...his recognition has room to grow.

 

But let's remember....the 2017 season's O-line for the Colts was soggy toilet paper compared to now....and Jacoby ran for his life nearly the entire time.

 

So I'm leaving room for him to settle down a bit...and along with growing chemistry between himself and ALL of his weapons, namely these young WRs.... maximizing his potential as our QB. 

 

If he winds up being a Top 15ish QB, and Ballard, Reich and Eberflus continue on their GM/Coaching trajectory with this young roster and a truly balanced approach... I believe it can pay off with a Super Bowl(s?). 

 

But we can't just microwave these things.

we will see, at some point we will have to put the ball in his hands and see if he can out score the other team

 

hasnt happened yet, but its inevitable.  today might be that day, this is a huge game for both teams  

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40 minutes ago, stitches said:

How do Vikings fans feel in general about the prospect of getting new QB? Is this a prevailing feeling among Vikings fans? Do you think your front office actually shares that view or will they keep going with Cousins even after this year? 

 

There seems to be a growing number of teams that might want a QB this year. It's possible we get something like... 5-6 QBs drafted in the first round, which would be crazy. 

 

 

There is a segment of the fan base (like me) who wants to draft a QB and move on from Cousins. There is another that likes Cousins but is taking a "wait and see" approach to whether we should re-sign him. There is a small group that does not see or acknowledge his flaws and believe that it is the OL and the run game that have held him back. They want him re-signed.

 

I am not sure what the front office wants to do with the QB position. I believe they want it to work out with Cousins. If the Vikings make the playoffs and go far, Cousins will be re-signed and we won't be drafting a QB. If we miss the playoffs, I believe the team will clean house. A new GM and new head coach will draft a QB. I think we should draft a QB regardless of what happens this season. I think it is good to draft QBs, the way the Pats do, and develop them. 

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2 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

we will see, at some point we will have to put the ball in his hands and see if he can out score the other team

 

hasnt happened yet, but its inevitable.  today might be that day, this is a huge game for both teams  

 

This is where I'm at too. I think Houston will key on Mack (stopping the run in general) and TY. JB will probably be asked to do more.

 

Houston is not great at all vs the pass, and have some DBs banged up . Three of their starting DBs (both CBs, and one S) are "questionable". You have to think Reich will try to exploit that in the play calling. Could also be a big day for WRs not named TY (I do think TY will get his though).

 

In short, things are a bit set up for him to have a good game. If he struggles, we'll be in the same fog about him. If he balls out, could be a turning point for him going into 3 very winnable games.

 

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32 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I agree they've went all in on him, but he has a lot to prove, just like JB. 

Just because they've went all in, doesn't mean he's a franchise guy, just means he's getting franchise guy money lol. 

No he's their franchise guy.  Once you've gotten to the point JG is at right now, the priciple of inertia swings the other way and it's super hard for the team to give up on you.  To me that's when you make the transition to being a franchise player.

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The good news is field generals/ game managers can win super bowls.  The bad news is franchise QB's will eventually be paid enormous contracts at the expense of other deserving players on your team.   Since Peyton only got us one SB I'm willing to try the other route and build a stronger overall team.

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19 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

No he's their franchise guy.  Once you've gotten to the point JG is at right now, the priciple of inertia swings the other way and it's super hard for the team to give up on you.  To me that's when you make the transition to being a franchise player.

You're definition of a franchise guy seems to be one of financial commitment. My definition is more in terms of production and leadership.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

the QB is by far the most important position on the team, but it's not more important than the combination of all other position. Thus for me it's possible to have an amazing QB starting for a losing team with horrible roster all around him. 

 

 

Agreed.  Ballard knows this and told us so.

 

*** Colts GM’s Mission: ‘It Can't Just Be About Andrew Luck’ ***

 

https://tinyurl.com/y4adqq5h

 

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

Well, we weren't "down" but the 2 4th quarter drives against Atlanta to prevent the Falcons from getting back into the game when they were driving down the field at will was excellent work by both the coach and QB.

 

Game 1, LA Chargers, 4th quarter. 8:30 to go, Colts behind 24 - 16.  JB7 directs drive down the field for a TD and 2 point conversion to tie the game. Using 7:52 of the game clock leaving 38 seconds.

 

At the Indy 44 Mack loses 5 yards. the next play is a pass to Hines for another -7 yards. 3rd and 22, JB7 hits T.Y. for 19 to L.A. 49.  on 4th down, JB7 connected with Funchess for another 8 yards, moving the sticks. Later, with only 0:48 left, JB7 finds T.Y. for a 19 yard TD pass.  Mack scores the two point conversion from the 2 to tie the game.

 

Yes, Colts lost the toss, and JB7 never saw the ball again. Rivers/Chargers win.  But I remember the hope I had after that comeback drive late in that game.

 

He's done it already, and don't see why couldn't again, if necessary.

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Obiwan, 4TD's, no picks, 144 passer rating so far.

 

Game manager my *. 

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2 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Obiwan, 4TD's, no picks, 144 passer rating so far.

 

Game manager my *. 

Lol. That's a wrap guys. Everyone knows 1 game is enough to define a QB...

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9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

You're definition of a franchise guy seems to be one of financial commitment. My definition is more in terms of production and leadership.

 

Right, treating him like a franchise QB doesn't make him a franchise QB. The Dolphins made a big commitment to Ryan Tannehill, that didn't make him a franchise QB. 

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11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Right, treating him like a franchise QB doesn't make him a franchise QB. The Dolphins made a big commitment to Ryan Tannehill, that didn't make him a franchise QB. 

Yup. And I'm not saying Jimmy G won't be a true franchise QB, but he's got a ways to go. Honestly, I would not have given that contract to him....  

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I don't want to overreact to one performance today, but Brissett has been very good so far this year.  I would rank him in the lower half of the top 20 right now.  But he's got a chance to near the top 10 if he continues to impress like he did today.

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I still label JB as Above Average but after today I am almost at Good. Still early in the year. He is definitely better than Average. To the people that said he was Bad or Below Average = Get another profession in analyzing football or before you hit send, delete what you are about to send lmao 

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Jacoby must be doing ok because after 6 games last year the Colts were 1-5.  They are now 4-2 after 6 games this season.

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8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. And I'm not saying Jimmy G won't be a true franchise QB, but he's got a ways to go. Honestly, I would not have given that contract to him....  

 

I think that contract was premature, and he hasn't really shown that he's worth it, yet, partly due to injury.

 

But the Niners can wriggle out of it at any point moving forward.  They frontloaded it dramatically. After 2019, they will have paid him a total of $60m, but they can release him before April with only a $4m cap penalty. So let's say he's awful for the rest of the year and they can draft a replacement, they could move on. And they have that same flexibility after every year of the contract. I'm not saying they will, but it could be a more fluid situation than expected if he doesn't perform. 

 

The Eagles and Rams have much less flexibility with Wentz and Goff. 

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

I think that contract was premature, and he hasn't really shown that he's worth it, yet, partly due to injury.

 

But the Niners can wriggle out of it at any point moving forward.  They frontloaded it dramatically. After 2019, they will have paid him a total of $60m, but they can release him before April with only a $4m cap penalty. So let's say he's awful for the rest of the year and they can draft a replacement, they could move on. And they have that same flexibility after every year of the contract. I'm not saying they will, but it could be a more fluid situation than expected if he doesn't perform. 

 

The Eagles and Rams have much less flexibility with Wentz and Goff. 

 

I agree, but still... At the time it was the largest contract ever for a very unproven guy. I know they can get out of it, it'll be harder now finding a quality replacement (given their record and probable draft position) unless they want to mortgage their future. 

 

I know everything is a gamble, but this one just seems so premature as you said. I wish I had 60M to gamble with :-)

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22 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

I don't want to overreact to one performance today, but Brissett has been very good so far this year.  I would rank him in the lower half of the top 20 right now.  But he's got a chance to near the top 10 if he continues to impress like he did today.

I'd be hard pressed to name 5 people in the AFC I'd start over JB7 right now

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Give me a system QB in a great system on a great team. We’ve had back to back elite QBs For 20ish years and look at what they did. 1 SB for 2 of the best to ever play the game. 

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