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Manning IS The GOAT (argue at your own risk)

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21 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Oh Belichick bends the rules no question about that.  The big problem for proponents of that argument isn't whether BB did it, it's how unusual what BB does actually is.

 

In a league where everyone's scrambling for advantage Im convinced rules get bent left right and center.  Belichick might be more aggressive about it than some others, relying on his reputation to prevent people from calling him on it, but everyone does any little thing they can to get advantage.

 

Or are we all conveniently forgetting about the allegations about a decade ago that we piped crowd noise into LOS to create additional confusion for opposing teams?

 

Are you conveniently forgetting those allegations were proven false? 

 

The problem is on at least 2 occasions the patriots have been proven to be cheating. Whether its Brady or Belichick. Belichick was shown to be taping opponents. There were several missing tapes from that scandal so we will never know how many or who all he cheated against. Knowing a teams plays will sure as hell get you an advantage. 

 

As for deflated footballs, the Patriots are ranked the BEST at football safety and have the least amount of fumbles since 2007 up to deflategate. Wonder why that is? 

 

If you're a cheater then there are numerous ways you would be cheating. And only got caught twice. 

 

Kraft just got arrested for prostitution practicing. 

 

The Patriots organization is corrupt from Tom Brady up. Stop acting like there isnt a legitimate reason to doubt their morals over everyone else's in the league. 

 

And the biggest problem about it..  they might be good enough to not cheat to begin with. Personally for me, knowing they cheat when they can, and then seeing the nation and medias love fest sickens me to the point of vomiting. 

 

I have watched Brady spew some % at a ref, then watch him throw a flag on the other team. 

 

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7 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Are you conveniently forgetting those allegations were proven false? 

 

The problem is on at least 2 occasions the patriots have been proven to be cheating. Whether its Brady or Belichick. Belichick was shown to be taping opponents. There were several missing tapes from that scandal so we will never know how many or who all he cheated against. Knowing a teams plays will sure as hell get you an advantage. 

 

As for deflated footballs, the Patriots are ranked the BEST at football safety and have the least amount of fumbles since 2007 up to deflategate. Wonder why that is? 

 

If you're a cheater then there are numerous ways you would be cheating. And only got caught twice. 

 

Kraft just got arrested for prostitution practicing. 

 

The Patriots organization is corrupt from Tom Brady up. Stop acting like there isnt a legitimate reason to doubt their morals over everyone else's in the league. 

 

And the biggest problem about it..  they might be good enough to not cheat to begin with. Personally for me, knowing they cheat when they can, and then seeing the nation and medias love fest sickens me to the point of vomiting. 

 

I have watched Brady spew some % at a ref, then watch him throw a flag on the other team. 

 

To this day I still think Brady cheated as in he had the ball boys deflate the balls, so he knew what was going on. He destroys his phone on top of it lmao . Kind of tough to fumble a littler football and this may of went on for years? To one of your points they had the better team over us anyway in 2014 so they didn't have to cheat to win is the funny thing.  

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To this day I still think Brady cheated as in he had the ball boys deflate the balls, so he knew what was going on. He destroys his phone on top of it lmao . Kind of tough to fumble a littler football and this may of went on for years? To one of your points they had the better team over us anyway in 2014 so they didn't have to cheat to win is the funny thing.  

 

Less fumbles = more wins. If you dink and dunk the ball like Brady does that cuts way back on Interceptions as well. I'm convinced Kraft, Belichick, and Brady all are in cahoots about it. No one else has to really know anything for it to be effective. 

 

One of my biggest issues is that people who accuse them of cheating get ripped on more than the cheaters themselves. People are scared to call them cheaters now. 

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I think Dan Marino was the best. He did so much with so little. 

 

Plus, he put up star wars numbers when WR's didn't have the rules they have now. You know, back when they actually let em play. 

 

Plus Idc what anyone says, Brady is a product of Belechick. Hoodie could've done what he's done with any QB. 

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2 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Less fumbles = more wins. If you dink and dunk the ball like Brady does that cuts way back on Interceptions as well. I'm convinced Kraft, Belichick, and Brady all are in cahoots about it. No one else has to really know anything for it to be effective. 

 

One of my biggest issues is that people who accuse them of cheating get ripped on more than the cheaters themselves. People are scared to call them cheaters now. 

Yeah that is a bit strange that most in the media just laugh what they did off. Regarding taking away Tom's status from being possibly the GOAT, I don't think it does but I still think he knew what was going on, JMO.

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2 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

his arm power wasnt that weak imo either and yes his accuracy was great too.  he didnt have a huge arm like say Mahomes but he could still throw it deep and on point he was only lacking in athleticism imo and that like I said isnt very important if you're as smart as he was and had as quick of a release.

    I'm not saying he didn't have arm power, it was just the primary concern seeing as that he was a very coveted QB prospect so people will look for any weakness he has. Manning was a great talent but there's no doubt that he got to where he is now because of his knowledge of football. He's not in the conversation when it comes to pure talented QBs but he's in the top 5 because of his football IQ. Like Brady, he isn't that talented of a QB, but he wins(now if that's just because BB is a different topic) and because he wins he's the so called GOAT. 

     I think we may be getting naturally gifted talent and talent that a player has worked for confused. Because someone can get very talented at something, which is what a lot of QBs in the NFL are, but guys like Luck Marino Elway and Rodgers are born with those gifts.

     I guess what I've been saying is that Peyton didn't have the same kind of naturally born talent that the other QBs I mentioned did, he just worked for most of his, as well as being a football genius.

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1 hour ago, CaptainColt12 said:

    I'm not saying he didn't have arm power, it was just the primary concern seeing as that he was a very coveted QB prospect so people will look for any weakness he has. Manning was a great talent but there's no doubt that he got to where he is now because of his knowledge of football. He's not in the conversation when it comes to pure talented QBs but he's in the top 5 because of his football IQ. Like Brady, he isn't that talented of a QB, but he wins(now if that's just because BB is a different topic) and because he wins he's the so called GOAT. 

     I think we may be getting naturally gifted talent and talent that a player has worked for confused. Because someone can get very talented at something, which is what a lot of QBs in the NFL are, but guys like Luck Marino Elway and Rodgers are born with those gifts.

     I guess what I've been saying is that Peyton didn't have the same kind of naturally born talent that the other QBs I mentioned did, he just worked for most of his, as well as being a football genius.

well when I say someone is the GOAT I just mean everything considered. I agree players can throw and run and are more athletic than peyton they still are not the better QB imo 

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9 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

well when I say someone is the GOAT I just mean everything considered. I agree players can throw and run and are more athletic than peyton they still are not the better QB imo 

We were lucky to have Peyton, he is one of a kind. Top 3 ever at worse IMO and maybe the best ever in reality. Not only that off the field he did a lot for Indianapolis. Regarding pro athlete's that played for pro Indiana teams, he is #1 and Reggie Miller is #2. I don't see that changing for a long time :thmup:

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If Brady didnt have his footballs deflated they couldnt have beat us in the AFC title game because they would not have made it that far. The Ravens would have beat them in the AFC semis, as it was Pats barely won 35-31 so any argument that Pats still would have won the AFc title falls on deaf ears and many forget how close a call that game was and John Harbaugh knew the balls were deflated for that game. I like the Colts chances over the Ravens in that game.

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Brady is a reasonably accurate QB aided by what is euphemistically called “superior intelligence”.  Given that we don’t know just how much his performance has been helped by the team’s proven cheating, I would have a hard time putting him ahead of any of those legitimate QBs deserving of top 10 consideration...

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This can't be ignored. When Peyton missed a season the Colts were 2-14. Brady missed the patriots were 11-5.  Brady was suspended 4 games , the patriots were 3-1 beating 2 playoff teams. Peyton retires the Broncos dont even make the playoffs the following year with basically the same team.   

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On 10/14/2019 at 9:54 AM, Imgrandojji said:

Eh.  Personally I don't believe the cheating stuff.  

 

There's no evidence Brady knew of that thing that there's no evidence even happened anyway. 

I was going to respond to each point but it's not really worth it so I will just say, the fact that he was suspended and fined was not proof enough for you?

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15 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I was going to respond to each point but it's not really worth it so I will just say, the fact that he was suspended and fined was not proof enough for you?

No more than someone being convicted and imprisoned when it's obvious the police force engaged in improper procedure.

 

I guess the issue here is that I can see the world outside my own head better than a lot of people.  And I know a little more about physics than the average bear, simply from boredom clicks that turned into self directed study sessions. 

 

The idea that the balls were below PSI because the air was cold and cold air is denser and reduces air pressure, makes a lot more sense to me than some nefarious conspiracy, especially because the Colts' balls were also just barely under PSI, and we all know Andrew Luck doesn't cheat.

 

The way I had it explained to me is the Patriots keep their balls at the low end of the allowed PSI limit at room temperature.  Throw in a super cold January evening that was way below room temperature and the nefarious becomes the inevitable.  That's why the Colts' balls were also low, because air cold enough to shrink a Patriots ball will shrink a Colts ball too. 

 

The reason that the Colts' balls had higher PSI is that they started higher -- Colts don't push the lower edge of the PSI limit.  Also the Colts balls were tested later, after things had a chance to warm up and normalize

 

If it was Manning or Luck being accused none of us would have been satisfied with the standard of "proof" on display. 

 

there might just barely be enough actual evidence to get the equipment people themselves on something, if you completely ignore the way temperature affects air pressure, but the evidence tying any of that directly back to Brady is practically nonexistent.

 

They would have had a better reason to suspend either of Robert Kraft or Bill Belichick than Tom Brady.  Both of them have more authority over the equipment personnel than the starting QB does and at least you could get them on the commander clause. '

 

All they have on Brady is that he destroyed his phone after they said they didn't want it and before they changed their minds and decided they did

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Let us remember that it was Peyton and Brady who spearheaded the movement that allowed each offense to use their own balls. This obviously led to Brady being able to use balls with below standard pressure. The plan was simple. Let his ball boys handle it after the refs measure.  Good to go. Peyton has never been suspected or implicated of this practice. Dungy announced we won the Super Bowl  the right way. That means we didn’t cheat and that he must know that others are guilty to say something like that.

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Nah, Manning doesn't cheat.  Those shipments of HGH were totes 100% for his wife, the fact that they were delivered while he was trying to squeeze one last season out of a nearly ruined spinal column at the time was a complete coincidence, honest.

 

But that was while he was a Bronco, right?  It doesn't suggest he did something while he was here. right?

 

Right?

 

I mean at least Luck did it the right way, when he went for "rehab" in Europe (which totally an definitely wasn't also HGH injections to accelerate recovery of his shoulder injury, no siree Bob!) he wasn't playing football at the time.  Even if he did it since he wasn't active it wasn't against the rules. Manning was active at the time "his wife" was caught buying HGH.

 

Just goes to show -- you'll be surprised what you'd find if you rolled away the secrecy in every single franchise.  The patriots had the curtains rolled back and we got to see all the cockroaches.  Pretending that they aren't there in every other franchise simply because no one else is exposed to the same scrutiny is foolish and absurd.


That, and I'm not sure anyone actually proved that those footballs were actually deflated in the first place.  Air temperature affecting PSI is the sort of thing no fan of NASCAR should ever be ignorant of. 

 

No one has ever in my presence rebutted the idea that the balls were low in PSI simply because they were cold.  

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1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

Nah, Manning doesn't cheat.  Those shipments of HGH were totes 100% for his wife, the fact that they were delivered while he was trying to squeeze one last season out of a nearly ruined spinal column at the time was a complete coincidence, honest.

 

But that was while he was a Bronco, right?  It doesn't suggest he did something while he was here. right?

 

Right?

 

I mean at least Luck did it the right way, when he went for "rehab" in Europe (which totally an definitely wasn't also HGH injections to accelerate recovery of his shoulder injury, no siree Bob!) he wasn't playing football at the time.  Even if he did it since he wasn't active it wasn't against the rules. Manning was active at the time "his wife" was caught buying HGH.

 

Just goes to show -- you'll be surprised what you'd find if you rolled away the secrecy in every single franchise.  The patriots had the curtains rolled back and we got to see all the cockroaches.  Pretending that they aren't there in every other franchise simply because no one else is exposed to the same scrutiny is foolish and absurd.


That, and I'm not sure anyone actually proved that those footballs were actually deflated in the first place.  Air temperature affecting PSI is the sort of thing no fan of NASCAR should ever be ignorant of. 

 

No one has ever in my presence rebutted the idea that the balls were low in PSI simply because they were cold.  

Ahh yes, the old "everyone does it" defense. I like how you started off saying there was no proof that Brady did anything but then throw out several things that have been disproven or just complete speculation with no basis in reality (I guess the proof thing is only something you require for Brady)

 

And yes it's easy to defend your "the balls loss PSI because of the cold defense.  it's estimated that there is a loss of 1 psi per 10 degree temp change.  So most look at that and say, well if it goes from 70 to 20 that is 50 degree drop, so the ball would lose 5 psi.  But that is wrong, it's 1 psi per degree temp change kelvin.  So, a 50 degree F drop is about a 27 degree kelvin drop , so that would be 2.7 psi.  There are also other factors that then play into that... time for one, the ball is not going to immediately loose pressure, the air inside the has to cool to lose the pressure.  The room where the balls were filled, being in enough stadiums and part of the design team on a couple, that room is not kept and a comfortable temp, they are typically not insulated and have a heating/cooling system designed to keep the temp 20-30 degree above/below ambient.  So now we are looking at a 30 F temp change, which when translated to K is is a 16.7 degree difference, so then it's would be a 1.67 psi difference.  And that is why it was the issue, 2 of the balls (including the one intercepted by DQ) were well below the range of the minimum allowable pressure - pressure change because of weather.  Whereas all the balls from the Colts sideline were within the acceptable range.

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5 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Those shipments of HGH were totes 100% for his wife

 

Would you mind providing the source for the Manning HGH story?

 

What?  It was a debunked Al-Jazeera story?  Oh ok.  Yet you believe it, while not believing Brady might have cheated because you "know a little more about physics than the average bear"...  :thinking: 

 

Seems kinda weird that you're willing to give Brady the benefit of the doubt for something he got suspended for, while not giving that same benefit of the doubt to Manning or Luck, who were never suspended for anything.  :dunno:  Because you "see the world outside your head better than a lot of people" or some such nonsense...:funny:

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4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Ahh yes, the old "everyone does it" defense. I like how you started off saying there was no proof that Brady did anything but then throw out several things that have been disproven or just complete speculation with no basis in reality (I guess the proof thing is only something you require for Brady)

 

And yes it's easy to defend your "the balls loss PSI because of the cold defense.  it's estimated that there is a loss of 1 psi per 10 degree temp change.  So most look at that and say, well if it goes from 70 to 20 that is 50 degree drop, so the ball would lose 5 psi.  But that is wrong, it's 1 psi per degree temp change kelvin.  So, a 50 degree F drop is about a 27 degree kelvin drop , so that would be 2.7 psi.  There are also other factors that then play into that... time for one, the ball is not going to immediately loose pressure, the air inside the has to cool to lose the pressure.  The room where the balls were filled, being in enough stadiums and part of the design team on a couple, that room is not kept and a comfortable temp, they are typically not insulated and have a heating/cooling system designed to keep the temp 20-30 degree above/below ambient.  So now we are looking at a 30 F temp change, which when translated to K is is a 16.7 degree difference, so then it's would be a 1.67 psi difference.  And that is why it was the issue, 2 of the balls (including the one intercepted by DQ) were well below the range of the minimum allowable pressure - pressure change because of weather.  Whereas all the balls from the Colts sideline were within the acceptable range.

All the balls from the Colts sideline were technically below the line.  They were within a margin of error however.  It's a technicality that the balls were acceptable, but it is worth noting, you're right.

 

  This isn't the evidence you think it is, because all it demonstrates is that the Colts footballs started at a point of higher PSI.  As I understand it the Colts routinely inflate their balls about half a PSI more than the Patriots do.  These kinds of deviations are pretty normal from team to team.  Luck simply liked to throw a firmer ball.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/10/04/tom-brady-deflategate-ideal-gas-law

 

Quote

In using Gay-Lussac’s Law, we have to be careful about measurement units—we need to use absolute pressure and temperature measurements, something it is hard to develop an intuition for in everyday life. At MIT, we use the metric system, but for many NFL fans I think it is easier to keep the same increment of temperature change that we use with the Fahrenheit scale. Therefore, in what follows I am using the Rankine scale, in which we need to add 459.67 degrees to measurements of temperature to reference them to absolute zero. (I am going to use 460 instead of 459.67, which is close enough for our purposes here.)

For the conditions of the 2015 AFC Championship Game, using Gay-Lussac’s law we can compute that the Patriots’ footballs should have had an on-field pressure of 11.32 psig, or pounds-per-square inch gauge pressure. This is assuming pregame inflation to 12.5 psig in a 71°F locker room, with an on-field temperature of 48°F. (With the Rankine scale, the locker room temperature was 460 + 71 = 531°R and the field temperature was 460 + 48 = 508°R.)  The details of the computation are as follows (I encourage you to try it yourself with a calculator):

(12.5+14.7)*(460+48)/(460+71)-14.7 =11.32

where:

12.5 = starting Patriots’ gauge pressure in psig

14.7 = atmospheric pressure (add this to psig to get absolute pressure)

460 = add this to degrees Fahrenheit to get absolute temperature (Rankine scale)

71 = locker room temp, in degrees Fahrenheit

48 = field temperature, in degrees Fahrenheit

The ratio of the two absolute temperatures, (508°R / 531°R = 0.9567) is about 95.7%, meaning that, in absolute terms, the temperature fell by 4.3% from locker room to field. Therefore, the absolute pressure in the footballs should also fall by 4.3%, from 27.2 psi to about 26.02 psi. Subtract 14.7 psi from this last number and you get 11.32 psig, the predicted on field relative pressure for the Patriots' footballs.

Now let’s compare this prediction to the measurements. Using the Logo gauge, the values for the Patriots’ footballs were 11.80, 11.20, 11.50, 11.00, 11.45, 11.95, 12.30, 11.55, 11.35, 10.90 and 11.35 psig. The average of these values is 11.49 psig.  Notice that eight of the eleven measured values are greater than the predicted pressure of 11.32 psig.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Would you mind providing the source for the Manning HGH story?

 

What?  It was a debunked Al-Jazeera story? 

Actually I got it from WaPo

 

The HGH is confirmed information.  Manning's own lawyers confirmed that HGH was sent to the Manning residence.  The only thing in question, is the narrative that it was for Manning's wife vs rumors that it wasn't, fanned by that Al-Jazeera leak that has been denied, not (AFAIK anyway) debunked.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Actually I got it from WaPo

 

This?  (see how I provided a link to the source?)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/debate-over-peyton-manning-and-hgh-still-bubbles-years-after-al-jazeera-documentary/2018/06/07/1b86bcac-687f-11e8-9e38-24e693b38637_story.html

 

That's basically an explanation of a bungled investigation by Al Jazeera, which I mentioned.

 

I also mentioned that it seems you are giving the benefit of the doubt to Brady for Deflategate, while not doing so for Manning or Luck.  And THAT was the main point of my post.  You don't think Brady cheated, but you think Manning and Luck did.  Very interesting.

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15 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

This?  (see how I provided a link to the source?)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/debate-over-peyton-manning-and-hgh-still-bubbles-years-after-al-jazeera-documentary/2018/06/07/1b86bcac-687f-11e8-9e38-24e693b38637_story.html

 

That's basically an explanation of a bungled investigation by Al Jazeera, which I mentioned.

 

I also mentioned that it seems you are giving the benefit of the doubt to Brady for Deflategate, while not doing so for Manning or Luck.  And THAT was the main point of my post.  You don't think Brady cheated, but you think Manning and Luck did.  Very interesting.

Actually I don't think Luck did anything wrong.  I do think he went to Europe to get around certain rules and laws in the US regarding HGH but he didn't break any bylaws doing it, so that's not a problem.

 

The excuse for Manning is barely plausible and just sounds desperate and stretches the bounds of credibility.  The fact that Manning's lawyers choose to come up with an explanation rather than denying the whole thing is pretty damning in its own right. 

 

I just feel like if there was no HGH at all, Manning's lawyers would not be trying to explain why it was there.  So that puts the existence of HGH itself at least in the "semi-confirmed" category.

 

I think if there's going to be HGH in the household, a lot of credibility is already out the window, even if the athlete never fails a test.  Appearance of evil and all that. 

 

If  Mrs. Manning really did order that HGH, entirely for her own use and never planned to share with her husband, which is the best case scenario for Manning, then she's not too bright, because what she did was stupid and potentially super embarrassing for a husband that was totally not trying to cheat. 

 

On the other hand, we've definitely seen athletes try this excuse before, rather famously by MLB pitcher Roger Clemens who was eventually outed as a steroid abuser after originally claiming the steroids were for his wife.

 

So to sum up -- let's just say that history isn't friendly to the argument Manning's lawyers chose to make.

 

Meanwhile the cheating explanation on Deflategate fails one of the most basic principles of logic, occam's razor.  People I choose to trust have convinced me that natural forces explain most of the alleged deflation.  2 balls out of 12 being outside the weather-enhanced margin of error is an issue, but not a 4 games suspension issue.


And again, if I wanted to punish a team for deflated footballs, I'd suspend the head coach, not the starting QB.  If anyone is ultimately responsible for what happens on the team, it's the head coach.  The commander principle puts the target on Belichick's back for any deflated footballs, and IMHO the standard of proof required to put it anywhere else has simply not been met.

 

Again, even if you assume I'm 100% wrong about everything I've said -- where's the evidence connecting ANY of this to Tom Brady individually?  Every connection I've ever seen between the alleged deflation and Brady personally rings with all the credibility of your average 9/11 conspiracy theory.

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Deflated balls. Deflator nickname for pat equip guy. Phone texts. Brady destroys phone as part of his “routine”. Brady grins the whole time at presser and plays dumb. Equip guys fired.  They win and take the hit next year.  A pattern? That’s Occam’s razor. Simplest explanation.

if Manning we’re guilty  which he isn’t.but if he were.... He is a guy with an unbelievably bad injury with no feeling in parts of his body trying to get back to average. Brady is not injured and is manipulating the system so his smaller hands can grip the cold damp ball in a big game.

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16 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

Deflated balls. Deflator nickname for pat equip guy. Phone texts. Brady destroys phone as part of his “routine”. Brady grins the whole time at presser and plays dumb. Equip guys fired.  They win and take the hit next year.  A pattern? That’s Occam’s razor. Simplest explanation.

Uhh no.  First of all, you're operating on the naked assumption that there were deflated balls, and without that bit the whole argument shrivels up and dies. 

 

There were 2 balls below where weather effects and the math of people I trust suggest the PSI should have been.  You can allege stuff based on that, but all by itself it doesn't prove anything.  Especially when 1 of those footballs spent time on the opposing teams sideline.

 

The equipment manager was fired, but here's a cool fact.  The equipment manager despite no longer working for the Patriots in any capacity never gave evidence to the NFL to support the idea balls were deflated, despite the fact that he had nothing to lose from doing so.  As I understand it, he was fired because of improper chain of custody with some of the Patriots footballs, which was exposed as a sideline to the whole fiasco.  Which, again, it creates allegations but proves nothing.

 

That leaves the phone.  And we don't know everything that was on the phone because it was destroyed, all we actually know is that Brady talked to the ball guy a lot more in the days after the story broke than he ever had before.

 

So bottom line, we have plenty of reasons here to start an investigation, published as the findings at what was supposed to be the end of an investigation.  If I was trying to prosecute someone in a court of law based on that kind of evidence I'd be in for a bad day.  Which is probably why the federal court threw out the suspension before it was reversed on appeal over a technicality in the CBA

 

Oh one more thing worth noting, Brady wasn't technically suspended for deflating footballs.  A lot of people say he was, but in the strictest sense they're wrong.  Brady was suspended for interfering with the investigation by destroying his phone.  It was the only thing they could actually prove he did wrong.

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Quote

if Manning we’re guilty  which he isn’t.but if he were.... He is a guy with an unbelievably bad injury with no feeling in parts of his body trying to get back to average. 

 

And if he had done it while he wasn't still an active NFL player no one would have a problem with that.  Again, I have no problem with Andrew Luck probably doing the same thing while he was injured and inactive

 

I have no problem with former NFL players using whatever means of therapy helps heal their bodies and keeps them as pain free as possible.

 

But there's rules against using HGH to recover from injuries as an active NFL player.  And in 2015 when the story broke, Manning was active.

 

After the career is over, sure, do what you have to for your QOL, but while you're still competing on the field?  No.

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1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

occam's razor

 

Occam's Razor would be that Brady is just another cheater in an organization full of cheaters.

 

32 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

But there's rules against using HGH to recover from injuries as an active NFL player.  And in 2015 when the story broke, Manning was active.

 

See?  You're assuming Manning used HGH, and you're assuming Luck did too, but you're assuming Brady had nothing to do with over-deflated footballs.

 

You're making assumptions all the way around.  But you KNOW nothing.

 

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3 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Actually I don't think Luck did anything wrong.  I do think he went to Europe to get around certain rules and laws in the US regarding HGH but he didn't break any bylaws doing it, so that's not a problem.

 

The excuse for Manning is barely plausible and just sounds desperate and stretches the bounds of credibility.  The fact that Manning's lawyers choose to come up with an explanation rather than denying the whole thing is pretty damning in its own right. 

 

I just feel like if there was no HGH at all, Manning's lawyers would not be trying to explain why it was there.  So that puts the existence of HGH itself at least in the "semi-confirmed" category.

 

I think if there's going to be HGH in the household, a lot of credibility is already out the window, even if the athlete never fails a test.  Appearance of evil and all that. 

 

If  Mrs. Manning really did order that HGH, entirely for her own use and never planned to share with her husband, which is the best case scenario for Manning, then she's not too bright, because what she did was stupid and potentially super embarrassing for a husband that was totally not trying to cheat. 

 

On the other hand, we've definitely seen athletes try this excuse before, rather famously by MLB pitcher Roger Clemens who was eventually outed as a steroid abuser after originally claiming the steroids were for his wife.

 

So to sum up -- let's just say that history isn't friendly to the argument Manning's lawyers chose to make.

 

Meanwhile the cheating explanation on Deflategate fails one of the most basic principles of logic, occam's razor.  People I choose to trust have convinced me that natural forces explain most of the alleged deflation.  2 balls out of 12 being outside the weather-enhanced margin of error is an issue, but not a 4 games suspension issue.


And again, if I wanted to punish a team for deflated footballs, I'd suspend the head coach, not the starting QB.  If anyone is ultimately responsible for what happens on the team, it's the head coach.  The commander principle puts the target on Belichick's back for any deflated footballs, and IMHO the standard of proof required to put it anywhere else has simply not been met.

 

Again, even if you assume I'm 100% wrong about everything I've said -- where's the evidence connecting ANY of this to Tom Brady individually?  Every connection I've ever seen between the alleged deflation and Brady personally rings with all the credibility of your average 9/11 conspiracy theory.

 

 

My spouse can order what she wants or needs regardless of my status in society. If he didnt fail a test then he was clean. Players get caught all the time. Why didnt Manning? 

 

I get it. Everyone cheats right? You cheat. I cheat. We're all just trying to cheat each other arent we? I mean it would seem that you're a pretty skeptical person. 

 

Heres the thing. No one is surprised when the Patriots are involved in a cheating investigation. Is that just everyone hating them because they are winners? That must be it. Its envy. You see the colts have been beat by other teams too. They have been knocked out by the Steelers in some meaningful playoff games. The same can be said about the Chargers. I hate both teams. But they beat us fair and square. I can respect that. I cant respect the Patriots. They're classless. They're cheaters. They're proven cheaters. Not speculated. They're freakin proven cheaters.

 

You know most conspiracy theories are never proven considering they're just theories. Too bad both Brady and Bill have been tried and sentenced. It doesn't matter what theories you have if it isnt proven. You dont destroy a phone that doesn't have evidence on it. Just like you do destroy tapes, that have very clear evidence on them. 

 

Now try if you will, to consider the Patriots fumble history which you continue to ignore. Great job your apparent personal investigation into deflategate. But you missed the Patriots fumble hirstoy. It is leaps and bounds better than every other team in the league. Because oh that's right! They're winners! 

 

If the football is of lower PSI, it is much easier to retain control as a runner. Read between the lines man. 

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2 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

Heres the thing. No one is surprised when the Patriots are involved in a cheating investigation. Is that just everyone hating them because they are winners? That must be it. Its envy. You see the colts have been beat by other teams too. They have been knocked out by the Steelers in some meaningful playoff games. The same can be said about the Chargers. I hate both teams. But they beat us fair and square. I can respect that. I cant respect the Patriots. They're classless. They're cheaters. They're proven cheaters. Not speculated. They're freakin proven cheaters.

This ^^^^

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10 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

All the balls from the Colts sideline were technically below the line.  They were within a margin of error however.  It's a technicality that the balls were acceptable, but it is worth noting, you're right.

 

  This isn't the evidence you think it is, because all it demonstrates is that the Colts footballs started at a point of higher PSI.  As I understand it the Colts routinely inflate their balls about half a PSI more than the Patriots do.  These kinds of deviations are pretty normal from team to team.  Luck simply liked to throw a firmer ball.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/10/04/tom-brady-deflategate-ideal-gas-law

 

 

 

The method you quoted is incorrect because in this situation you cannot use absolute pressure.  Additionally the averages do not matter, it was not all the balls that were below the line, it was one or two from what I remember.  So again, the debate was not whether the patriots deflated the footballs, they did.  The only issue was if Brady knew... the fact that it is well document that Brady is a control freak when it comes to all things football (I'm sure most great QBs are) and to think that an equipment manager took it upon himself to mess with the footballs Brady was to use in the game is ludicrous and the fact that Brady destroyed his cell phone when the investigation started leads to the likely conclusion that Brady did, indeed, try to skirt the rules and got busted for it.

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3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The method you quoted is incorrect because in this situation you cannot use absolute pressure.  Additionally the averages do not matter, it was not all the balls that were below the line, it was one or two from what I remember.  So again, the debate was not whether the patriots deflated the footballs, they did.  The only issue was if Brady knew... the fact that it is well document that Brady is a control freak when it comes to all things football (I'm sure most great QBs are) and to think that an equipment manager took it upon himself to mess with the footballs Brady was to use in the game is ludicrous and the fact that Brady destroyed his cell phone when the investigation started leads to the likely conclusion that Brady did, indeed, try to skirt the rules and got busted for it.

 

It was two balls out of the 12 that were sufficiently below the weather-adjusted PSI to raise eyebrows, and one of those spent time on the Colts' sideline.  The rest were either fine, or within the margin of error, like the Colts balls were.

 

And you can absolutely use averages in the way that guy used them, because what he was seeking to demonstrate is that that the 2 noncompliant footballs were outliers.  Which is useful for contextualization.

 

As for the equipment manager, incompetence is still a plausible alternative explanation.  This is an area of the game that rarely gets any sunlight.  If you've ever been a supervisor, you know that it's hard -- really, really hard -- to find people who will follow the exact procedure they're supposed to all the time even when they think no one's watching them.  The possibility of someone at the bottom of the proverbial food chain messing around in a way that causes his bosses grief isn't just plausible, it's practically inevitable.

 

So at the end of the day, this is what we have.  2 balls out of 12 were unusually soft, one of which was used in the game.  And we have phone records of conversations between Brady and the ball guy.  Again, that's a good reason to start an investigation, but not a good place to end one.

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18 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

plausible alternative explanation

 

You apply this for Brady skirting the rules, but not for Manning or Luck.  :facepalm:

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Here is why Manning is the best QB.

 

He went to the SB with 4 different head coaches (2 in Indy and 2 in Denver) and won a Superbowl with 2 different franchises.  There are a lot of great QBs out there both before and during Manning's time and as a fan I have enjoyed watching:

 

Montana, Elway, Marino, Kelly, Brady, Rogers, Roethlisberger, Stafford (not that he is great but he has been a lot of fun to watch over the years), Luck, Wilson, Mahommes, Cunningham, man the list can go on.  But here is the big difference to me, when teams talked about playing the Colts and the Broncos, they talked about out beating and outsmarting Manning.  When team talk about (or have talked about) beating teams like the Patriots or 49ers they talk about beating the coach and the system.  I have very little doubt (and since this cannot be proven or disproven, of course it's my opinion) that had Manning had BB as his coach is entire career they would have been more successful than even BB and TB have been.

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12 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Here is why Manning is the best QB.

 

He went to the SB with 4 different head coaches (2 in Indy and 2 in Denver) and won a Superbowl with 2 different franchises.  There are a lot of great QBs out there both before and during Manning's time and as a fan I have enjoyed watching:

 

Montana, Elway, Marino, Kelly, Brady, Rogers, Roethlisberger, Stafford (not that he is great but he has been a lot of fun to watch over the years), Luck, Wilson, Mahommes, Cunningham, man the list can go on.  But here is the big difference to me, when teams talked about playing the Colts and the Broncos, they talked about out beating and outsmarting Manning.  When team talk about (or have talked about) beating teams like the Patriots or 49ers they talk about beating the coach and the system.  I have very little doubt (and since this cannot be proven or disproven, of course it's my opinion) that had Manning had BB as his coach is entire career they would have been more successful than even BB and TB have been.

That is the best argument Peyton has to being the GOAT. He won a SB as a starter with 2 different teams. No other QB has ever done that in the history of the NFL. That does show he is the system not part of it. He also has won 5 MVP's which no other QB has done either. 

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1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

It was two balls out of the 12 that were sufficiently below the weather-adjusted PSI to raise eyebrows, and one of those spent time on the Colts' sideline.  The rest were either fine, or within the margin of error, like the Colts balls were.

 

And you can absolutely use averages in the way that guy used them, because what he was seeking to demonstrate is that that the 2 noncompliant footballs were outliers.  Which is useful for contextualization.

 

As for the equipment manager, incompetence is still a plausible alternative explanation.  This is an area of the game that rarely gets any sunlight.  If you've ever been a supervisor, you know that it's hard -- really, really hard -- to find people who will follow the exact procedure they're supposed to all the time even when they think no one's watching them.  The possibility of someone at the bottom of the proverbial food chain messing around in a way that causes his bosses grief isn't just plausible, it's practically inevitable.

 

So at the end of the day, this is what we have.  2 balls out of 12 were unusually soft, one of which was used in the game.  And we have phone records of conversations between Brady and the ball guy.  Again, that's a good reason to start an investigation, but not a good place to end one.

You seem like a Patriots fan in disguise to me :funny:

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42 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You seem like a Patriots fan in disguise to me :funny:

Nope.  I do admire the Patriots as a rival fan, I've been loud in my calls for the team to become more Patriots-like, and it looks to me like Reich is moving in that direction too, which is something I like to see.  Because the commitment to discipline, execution, and putting the team over individual accomplishments is the way you win big games.

 

I hate to see everything they do right dismissed with the "cheater" label when it's generally not the case that they win by cheating.  Especially over something petty like deflated footballs.

 

The whole Deflategate saga has always struck me as a tempest in a teacup and the more I've dug around the issue, the less impressed I've been with the way Goodell and the rest of the NFL brass handled it.  The response just seemed and still seems, ridiculously excessive.  Other episodes of doctored footballs are answered with a warning or a fine, not a 4 game suspension of a guy who is possibly indirectly involved in the whole thing.

 

I've never been satisfied that the "Brady Cheated" narrative has a leg to stand on, it strikes me as the sort of thing rival homers cling to as a way to discredit his legitimate accomplishments and put their own GOAT candidates forward, especially Rodgers and Peyton.  To make their guys seem better by comparison.  Which is why the Manning HGH rumors deserve to be brought up -- our guy has a mark on his record too.  probably a worse one than deflated footballs if we're all being honest.    If you can discredit a guy based on rumors that may or may not be true, Manning is in a certain amount of trouble.

 

If we assume everything is true, PEDs vs doctored footballs is not an argument we want to be making.  We don't have a leg to stand on either.  If we assume everything is overblown, we can't use the "Brady Cheated" mantra.  If we accept one as true but not the other despite a similar level of evidence in both cases, then we aren't being fair or reasonable.

 

Either way the "Brady Cheated" mantra is something that probablt needs to die.  And it doesn't do the Colts any favors to cling to it unreasonably.

 

It's just how I feel about the whole thing.

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Again, you could make a pretty good case that the Patriots cheated.  You could punish the organization pretty fairly based on the information we have. If the decision was to suspend Bill Belichick, fine Robert Kraft, or remove a pick from the Patriots franchise, based on the idea that franchise leadership had a moral/legal obligation to prevent cheating, I wouldn't have as big of a problem.

 

It's the fact that effort was made to single out specifically Brady that has never made sense to me.  Deflated footballs has always struck me as a franchise issue, not an individual player issue.  Equipment managers who won't stand up to players who want illegal things to happen is a team infrastructure problem first and foremost. 

 

Go after the team collectively, the owner or the HC individually, fine.  Singling out individual players is something you do when you have direct evidence that they were involved. 

 

If what you have is circumstantial evidence that they might have been involved, then you have to punish the team, the owner or the coach.

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1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You seem like a Patriots fan in disguise to me :funny:

There are a few of them on this forum.

 

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46 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Again, you could make a pretty good case that the Patriots cheated.  You could punish the organization pretty fairly based on the information we have. If the decision was to suspend Bill Belichick, fine Robert Kraft, or remove a pick from the Patriots franchise, based on the idea that franchise leadership had a moral/legal obligation to prevent cheating, I wouldn't have as big of a problem.

 

It's the fact that effort was made to single out specifically Brady that has never made sense to me.  Deflated footballs has always struck me as a franchise issue, not an individual player issue.  Equipment managers who won't stand up to players who want illegal things to happen is a team infrastructure problem first and foremost. 

 

Go after the team collectively, the owner or the HC individually, fine.  Singling out individual players is something you do when you have direct evidence that they were involved. 

 

If what you have is circumstantial evidence that they might have been involved, then you have to punish the team, the owner or the coach.

So you shouldn't have much of a problem since along with suspending Brady for 4 games, they fined the team $1 million and stripping them of a 1st round (2016) and a 4th round (2017) draft picks

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58 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Nope.  I do admire the Patriots as a rival fan, I've been loud in my calls for the team to become more Patriots-like, and it looks to me like Reich is moving in that direction too, which is something I like to see.  Because the commitment to discipline, execution, and putting the team over individual accomplishments is the way you win big games.

 

I hate to see everything they do right dismissed with the "cheater" label when it's generally not the case that they win by cheating.  Especially over something petty like deflated footballs.

 

The whole Deflategate saga has always struck me as a tempest in a teacup and the more I've dug around the issue, the less impressed I've been with the way Goodell and the rest of the NFL brass handled it.  The response just seemed and still seems, ridiculously excessive.  Other episodes of doctored footballs are answered with a warning or a fine, not a 4 game suspension of a guy who is possibly indirectly involved in the whole thing.

 

I've never been satisfied that the "Brady Cheated" narrative has a leg to stand on, it strikes me as the sort of thing rival homers cling to as a way to discredit his legitimate accomplishments and put their own GOAT candidates forward, especially Rodgers and Peyton.  To make their guys seem better by comparison.  Which is why the Manning HGH rumors deserve to be brought up -- our guy has a mark on his record too.  probably a worse one than deflated footballs if we're all being honest.    If you can discredit a guy based on rumors that may or may not be true, Manning is in a certain amount of trouble.

The major difference is that Manning was investigate and cleared.  Brady was investigated and suspended.

58 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

If we assume everything is true, PEDs vs doctored footballs is not an argument we want to be making.  We don't have a leg to stand on either.  If we assume everything is overblown, we can't use the "Brady Cheated" mantra.  If we accept one as true but not the other despite a similar level of evidence in both cases, then we aren't being fair or reasonable.

Again it's not accepting one is true and the other is not, it's Manning was investigated and cleared, Brady was investigated and suspended for 4 games.

58 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

Either way the "Brady Cheated" mantra is something that probablt needs to die.  And it doesn't do the Colts any favors to cling to it unreasonably.

 

It's just how I feel about the whole thing.

That's fine that you feel that way just keep in mind that Manning was investigated and cleared, Brady was investigated and suspended for 4 games.

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3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

So you shouldn't have much of a problem since along with suspending Brady for 4 games, they fined the team $1 million and stripping them of a 1st round (2016) and a 4th round (2017) draft picks

I don't have a problem with the punishment assigned too the team.  At least one the Wells Report became the foundational evidence on which it was assigned.  League offices have to make their decision based on something after all

 

 It never struck me that they had the evidence to suspend Brady as well.

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Just now, Imgrandojji said:

I don't have a problem with the punishment assigned too the team.  It never struck me that they had the evidence to suspend Brady as well.

Sounds like a homer position to me.

 

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