Manning IS The GOAT (argue at your own risk)

[WoolMagnet]

Liam Neeson is coming...... snd he has a very special set of skills.

In the movie "Cold Pursuit" (i just watched), he asked a badguy " who is the greatest quarterback. Manning or Elway?"

  The guy said Elway and got a bullet as his prize.

 

  So i dont know about the rest of you, I am safe as I already agree with Mr Neeson.  But if any of you were on the fence, or you happen to bump into Liam on the steet, you might wanna choose your NFL topics wisely.  Apparently he is a Colts fan.

[Trace Pyott]

No Argument here. 

[CaptainColt12]

Idk, Unitas was pretty good 

[Imgrandojji]

I have Manning at #3, behind Joe Montana and *sigh* Tom Brady

 

One thing for sure, Manning was better than Aaron Rodgers.

[jameszeigler834]

52 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

I have Manning at #3, behind Joe Montana and *sigh* Tom Brady

 

One thing for sure, Manning was better than Aaron Rodgers.

I put Manning ahead of Brady for one simple reason Manning earned every win he ever got while Brady has cheated to everything he has ever got so Brady being called the goat is nonsense.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 hour ago, CaptainColt12 said:

Idk, Unitas was pretty good 

 

*BANG*

 

56 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

I have Manning at #3, behind Joe Montana and *sigh* Tom Brady

 

One thing for sure, Manning was better than Aaron Rodgers.

 

*BANG*

[Imgrandojji]

12 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

I put Manning ahead of Brady for one simple reason Manning earned every win he ever got while Brady has cheated to everything he has ever got so Brady being called the goat is nonsense.

Eh.  Personally I don't believe the cheating stuff.  

 

There's no evidence Brady knew of that thing that there's no evidence even happened anyway. 

 

The fact that there's a perfectly valid scientific explanation for why the balls were below regulation PSI in a super cold environment doesn't exactly help matters. 

 

Neither does the fact that the Colts balls were also below PSI.

 

Nor does the fact that there's exactly zero other allegations of Brady cheating the game in any way.  Belichick yes, Brady no. Call the Patriots cheaters, sure, but don't single out TB12.

 

Honestly to every non-Colts fan, the Colts came out of that deal smelling worse than the Patriots did.  The fact that they couldn't prove anything just makes our guys look like sore losers.

[CaptainColt12]

#1 Johnny Unitas #2 Joe Montana #3 Tom Brady #4 Peyton Manning #5 John Elway

#6 Dan Marino #7 Brett Favre #8 Steve Young #9 Otto Graham #10 Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, CaptainColt12 said:

#1 Johnny Unitas #2 Joe Montana #3 Tom Brady #4 Peyton Manning #5 John Elway

#6 Dan Marino #7 Brett Favre #8 Steve Young #9 Otto Graham #10 Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees 

 

*BANG*

[Myles]

#1 Joe Montana, #2 Peyton Manning, #3 Dan Marino, #4 Johnny Unitas, #5 Steve Young, #6 Tom Brady, #7 Brett Favre, 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

3 minutes ago, Myles said:

#1 Joe Montana, #2 Peyton Manning, #3 Dan Marino, #4 Johnny Unitas, #5 Steve Young, #6 Tom Brady, #7 Brett Favre, 

 

*BANG*

[coltsva]

36 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Eh.  Personally I don't believe the cheating stuff.  

 

There's no evidence Brady knew of that thing that there's no evidence even happened anyway. 

 

The fact that there's a perfectly valid scientific explanation for why the balls were below regulation PSI in a super cold environment doesn't exactly help matters. 

 

Neither does the fact that the Colts balls were also below PSI.

 

Nor does the fact that there's exactly zero other allegations of Brady cheating the game in any way.  Belichick yes, Brady no. Call the Patriots cheaters, sure, but don't single out TB12.

 

Honestly to every non-Colts fan, the Colts came out of that deal smelling worse than the Patriots did.  The fact that they couldn't prove anything just makes our guys look like sore losers.

Quote from tech expert John Randall on cell phones:

“Nowadays I always tell people to destroy it yourself or take it to a recycling place that will allow you to witness them destroying it.”

[Imgrandojji]

I certainly would accidentally have already destroyed my cell phone if I thought I was about to become the subject of a witch hunt.  Especially if I had sexy pictures of my wife on the phone like 99.999999% of healthy adult heterosexual males would have

[Colts_Fan12]

it's easily Peyton Manning hes the most naturally talented QB ever hands down. Tom just got lucky and had the greatest football coach of all time.

[rockywoj]

By my eyes, the best QBs I ever watched were Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Bert Jones, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts, Tom Brady, & Aaron Rodgers.   

[holeymoley99]

I'm old school but Otto Graham's winning record makes everyone including Brady look pedestrian. 10 straight championship games winning 7 world titles (81% winning pct tops all time) , highest yards per pass attempt 8.63 which somehow still stands.  The game was so much different like comparing apples to oranges almost as far as td/int and pass yards per game. 5 x MVP, QB of NFL's 75 anniversary team.

 

Manning,Unitas,Montana,Brady,Brees, Favre all in top 10 discussion.  Not sure Elway even is in the same breath.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

I have Manning at #3, behind Joe Montana and *sigh* Tom Brady

 

One thing for sure, Manning was better than Aaron Rodgers.

That is my top 3 as well. I have:

 

1. Brady

2. Montana

3 Peyton

That is without a doubt my top 3 and between those top 3 one could flip flop those guys in any order.

 

Brady = 6 SB wins, 3 League MVP's, 4 SB MVP's.

 

Montana = 4 SB wins, 2 League MVP's, 3 SB MVP's. The thing about Montana is he played in 4 SB's and never through an INT! That is an amazing stat.

 

Peyton = 2 SB wins (won one on 2 different teams, only QB in NFL history to do so as a starter), 5 League MVP's, 1 SB MVP.

 

-I would have Unitas at #4, he was the best that ever was IMO until I started watching Montana play. I have Elway #5, Elway also has 2 SB wins on his resume + a League MVP and a SB MVP.

 

[twfish]

Manning over Brady all day. How many throws do you watch of Bradys and just think wow vs manning. Brady has never had to single handedly bring a team to a win the way Manning always had too. Without hoody Bradys career looks very much like Case Keenum. Manning with any other coach will look like... well Manning.

[2006Coltsbestever]

44 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

I'm old school but Otto Graham's winning record makes everyone including Brady look pedestrian. 10 straight championship games winning 7 world titles (81% winning pct tops all time) , highest yards per pass attempt 8.63 which somehow still stands.  The game was so much different like comparing apples to oranges almost as far as td/int and pass yards per game. 5 x MVP, QB of NFL's 75 anniversary team.

 

Manning,Unitas,Montana,Brady,Brees, Favre all in top 10 discussion.  Not sure Elway even is in the same breath.

It was a different game back then but Graham's stats do not hold up against guys like Unitas even. Bradshaw won 4 SB's but his stats were average. Stats are a part of it IMO when doing the list of greatest QB's of all-time no matter how many championships a player has won. That is why Marino makes my top 10 - that and eye test. 

[LockeDown]

1 hour ago, rockywoj said:

By my eyes, the best QBs I ever watched were Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Bert Jones, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts, Tom Brady, & Aaron Rodgers.   

Very close to my list

[CaptainColt12]

1 hour ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

it's easily Peyton Manning hes the most naturally talented QB ever hands down. Tom just got lucky and had the greatest football coach of all time.

Peyton got great through knowing the most about football than anyone in the history of the sport. He had a lot of talent but that award goes to either Rodgers or Marino, I think Luck and Jeff George had more talent than Peyton Manning.

[CaptainColt12]

2 minutes ago, CaptainColt12 said:

Peyton got great through knowing the most about football than anyone in the history of the sport. He had a lot of talent but that award goes to either Rodgers or Marino, I think Luck and Jeff George had more talent than Peyton Manning.

I'm sorry, I forgot about Elway. Elway Rodgers and Marino are the most talented.

[coltsfeva]

  Brady never had to outsmart BB. But he’s a great QB. So are the others listed but it really is subjective.
   Being a drummer, people ask me who the greatest drummer was/is. It really comes down to what you prefer, once you’re get to a certain level. In football, our opinions are affected by who we root for.

    But we know Brady wasn’t the most accurate, the fleetest of foot, had the strongest arm or was heads and shoulders above the others, as far as being cerebral.

    You can’t deny he had a great career but how would the others have done, with BB, their whole career? I would be surprised if Brady didn’t acknowledge how fortunate he was to have played where he did.
    Whether BB was great because he was smarter than everybody else or because he “bent” the rules is another question.

     

    

[Imgrandojji]

53 minutes ago, twfish said:

Manning over Brady all day. How many throws do you watch of Bradys and just think wow vs manning. Brady has never had to single handedly bring a team to a win the way Manning always had too. Without hoody Bradys career looks very much like Case Keenum. Manning with any other coach will look like... well Manning.

If the goal of the NFL was to make cool throws I would agree with you.

 

No head coach in the game is worth a damn if his quarterback can't execute.  Belichick is the best in the world at defense.  Brady carries the offense.  Neither would be as strong without the other

[Valpo2004]

1. Dan Marino,

2. Drew Brees

3. Aaron Rodgers

 

Are my top 3.  I could go with Manning at 4 maybe.

 

I'm sort of a stats vs time they played type of guy when it comes to picking the GOAT.  

 

You could dispute the order of those 3 somewhat.  

 

But those guys are guys that stats wise where way way ahead of the competition.

 

Marino had a 5000 yard season almost 30 years before it would be replicated.

 

Brees has 5 - 5000 yard passing seasons, no one else has more than 1. 

 

Aaron Rodgers on a different level has blown the competition away when it comes to being an efficient passer.  

 

 

 

 

[Imgrandojji]

4 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

  Brady never had to outsmart BB. But he’s a great QB. So are the others listed but it really is subjective.
   Being a drummer, people ask me who the greatest drummer was/is. It really comes down to what you prefer, once you’re get to a certain level. In football, our opinions are affected by who we root for.

    But we know Brady wasn’t the most accurate, the fleetest of foot, had the strongest arm or was heads and shoulders above the others, as far as being cerebral.

    You can’t deny he had a great career but how would the others have done, with BB, their whole career? I would be surprised if Brady didn’t acknowledge how fortunate he was to have played where he did.
    Whether BB was great because he was smarter than everybody else or because he “bent” the rules is another question.

     

    

Oh Belichick bends the rules no question about that.  The big problem for proponents of that argument isn't whether BB did it, it's how unusual what BB does actually is.

 

In a league where everyone's scrambling for advantage Im convinced rules get bent left right and center.  Belichick might be more aggressive about it than some others, relying on his reputation to prevent people from calling him on it, but everyone does any little thing they can to get advantage.

 

Or are we all conveniently forgetting about the allegations about a decade ago that we piped crowd noise into LOS to create additional confusion for opposing teams?

[Valpo2004]

10 minutes ago, CaptainColt12 said:

Peyton got great through knowing the most about football than anyone in the history of the sport. He had a lot of talent but that award goes to either Rodgers or Marino, I think Luck and Jeff George had more talent than Peyton Manning.

 

Agreed, in terms of natural talent Manning actually didn't have a great deal.  He was never super athletic and his arm talent was ok but not extraordinary.  

 

Honestly the perfect QB would be Manning's head on Luck's body with Jeff George's arm.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

17 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

1. Dan Marino,

2. Drew Brees

3. Aaron Rodgers

 

Are my top 3.  I could go with Manning at 4 maybe.

 

I'm sort of a stats vs time they played type of guy when it comes to picking the GOAT.  

 

You could dispute the order of those 3 somewhat.  

 

But those guys are guys that stats wise where way way ahead of the competition.

 

Marino had a 5000 yard season almost 30 years before it would be replicated.

 

Brees has 5 - 5000 yard passing seasons, no one else has more than 1. 

 

Aaron Rodgers on a different level has blown the competition away when it comes to being an efficient passer.  

 

 

 

 

I go by Stats as well but also overall wins/SB wins too, League MVP's, SB MVP's, eye test, etc.. All the guys you named are in my top 10. My top 10 would be:

 

1. Brady

 

2. Montana

 

3. Peyton

 

4. Unitas - Old school deserves top 4 here

 

5. Elway

 

6. Rodgers 

 

7. Brees

 

8. Favre - If it wasn't for his many bad INT's he would be top 5 IMO.

 

9. Graham - Different time but I respect old school.

 

10. Marino - Deserves top 10 despite never winning the SB, that is what my eye test tells me, stats tells me, his talent showed me. He did win a League MVP as well.

[Two_pound]

What has absolutely amazed me about Peyton's career is he played 14 years with one of the best gm's in football and made 2 sb's. He goes to Denver, a hideously bad team run by a car salesman since 2011 and goes to 2 sb's in 4 years. Then after his retirement following the 2015 season the Broncoes are back to picking in the top 10 every year and the car salesman is still trying to find a qb. My vote, without a doubt goes to Peyton as the greatest ever.

[The Old Crow]

Put me down for Unitas at #1 , but I certainly have the utmost respect for Manning. 

[Colts_Fan12]

9 hours ago, CaptainColt12 said:

I'm sorry, I forgot about Elway. Elway Rodgers and Marino are the most talented.

his brain is part of his natural talent he is the best combo of the 2 out of anyone to ever play his arm talent also wasnt as lacking compared to the others either. I agree luck had more physical talent but not the brain peyton still had a phenomenal arm just not the wheels but that's not really necessary.

[CurBeatElite]

12 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

I put Manning ahead of Brady for one simple reason Manning earned every win he ever got while Brady has cheated to everything he has ever got so Brady being called the goat is nonsense.

 

I think Brady has played within and exceptional system the majority of his career (and sure, they may have been caught cheating, but I imagine every coach in the NFL is trying to do something every week to get a leg up on the opponent).

 

My biggest argument on why I take Peyton over Brady is look what happened the year Peyton missed -- we went from being projected to win the AFC South, potential SB contenders, 10+ wins, etc... and we became the laughing stock of the league going 2-14.  It exposed how bad our team really was without Peyton at the helm.  

 

When Brady missed significant time, Matt Cassell led them to 11 wins.  Matt Cassel backed up Matt Barkley and ButtFumble Sanchez in college and never had a snap in a real game, yet could win double digits in NE.  Cassel got paid like a #1 QB after that, and has had maybe 1 decent year and otherwise is a major disappointment and essentially a journeyman back-up QB -- yet, he could win very regularly in NE under Belichek.  

To me, that just says Peyton was a more valuable player to his team than Brady.  It's evidenced by Peyton's regular season MVP awards.  Unfortunately, I don't think Peyton ever had as good a team around him (including defense) as Brady has had since he's been a starter in the NFL.  Also unfortunate, the problem on relying on one guy in the playoffs is that the playoffs usually require all 3 phases of a team to be playing pretty flawless once you're through the wildcard rounds.  Brady always had a D he could count on, always had a run game, and has had a lot of very reliable WRs throughout his career.  He rarely was asked to do as much for his team to get W's as Peyton was asked to do in Indy (or his first year in Denver).  

 

9 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

If the goal of the NFL was to make cool throws I would agree with you.

 

No head coach in the game is worth a damn if his quarterback can't execute.  Belichick is the best in the world at defense.  Brady carries the offense.  Neither would be as strong without the other

 

I think Belichek is the best coach in NFL history and at this point, I think it's almost hands down (I think the argument that he is the best is a far easier one to make than any individual QB, or really any individual player, considered the best all time).  If Matt Cassel could win 11 games with Belichek, I'm pretty sure there are at least 15 QBs in the league who could post winning records with that system (Cassel is far inferior to guys like Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, Stafford, and a whole slew of other QBs who have played QB in this league).  

 

Brady is a clutch player and he plays in a very solid system on a very solid team year in and year out.  That said, in their primes, I think a guy like Peyton could go to a 2-14 team and turn it around quicker than Brady could.  It's impossible to say, but if Peyton played 20 years with Belichek, I'd have to think he'd have as much or more SBs than Brady -- whereas, I don't think Brady could elevate a team like Indy the same way Peyton did over the course of his career.

[Imgrandojji]

1 minute ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I think Belichek is the best coach in NFL history and at this point, I think it's almost hands down (I think the argument that he is the best is a far easier one to make than any individual QB, or really any individual player, considered the best all time).  If Matt Cassel could win 11 games with Belichek, I'm pretty sure there are at least 15 QBs in the league who could post winning records with that system (Cassel is far inferior to guys like Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, Stafford, and a whole slew of other QBs who have played QB in this league).  

 

Brady is a clutch player and he plays in a very solid system on a very solid team year in and year out.  That said, in their primes, I think a guy like Peyton could go to a 2-14 team and turn it around quicker than Brady could.  It's impossible to say, but if Peyton played 20 years with Belichek, I'd have to think he'd have as much or more SBs than Brady -- whereas, I don't think Brady could elevate a team like Indy the same way Peyton did over the course of his career.

Tough argument to sustain when Manning is the only one of the two to play a losing season as the starter

 

he had 2, his 3-13 rookie season, which is easily explained and forgiveable, and then a 6-10 year in his third professional season that seems to have come down to a craptacular defense that was so bad even Manning couldn't score his way out of trouble.

 

Brady's worst season was 9-7 in 2002 as a result of a letdown year after winning SB36.

[CurBeatElite]

1 minute ago, Imgrandojji said:

Tough argument to sustain when Manning is the only one of the two to play a losing season as the starter

 

he had 2, his 3-13 rookie season, which is easily explained and forgiveable, and then a 6-10 year in his third professional season that seems to have come down to a craptacular defense that was so bad even Manning couldn't score his way out of trouble.

 

Brady's worst season was 9-7 in 2002 as a result of a letdown year after winning SB36.

 

Brady also didn't start as a rookie, he had a year to develop behind Bledsoe who was a good QB... and he wasn't playing on the worst team in the NFL his first year in the league (Peyton was, which is why the Colts had the #1 pick).  

 

I don't think Cassel is much, if any better than Kerry Collins, Orvolsky, etc. who led the Colts to a 2-14 season without Peyton.  Cassell came in and led NE to a 11-5 record after Brady got hurt year 1.  Highly doubt Cassell could've come to Indy and took a Peyton-less team to 11 wins, but wouldn't see it out of the realm of possibility for 50% or more of the back-ups in the league going to NE the year Brady was hurt and having >0.500 record.

[Imgrandojji]

5 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I don't think Cassel is much, if any better than Kerry Collins, Orvolsky, etc. who led the Colts to a 2-14 season without Peyton.  Cassell came in and led NE to a 11-5 record after Brady got hurt year 1.  Highly doubt Cassell could've come to Indy and took a Peyton-less team to 11 wins, but wouldn't see it out of the realm of possibility for 50% or more of the back-ups in the league going to NE the year Brady was hurt and having >0.500 record.

Kerry Collins was a corpse in Indy.  His career is actually pretty strong.  Not the best basis of comparison.

 

As for not taking Cassel over Dan freaking Orlovsky, I think that's ridiculous.  Remember, Cassell got it done for a couple years as the starter of his own team in KC before injury forced the Chiefs to bring in Alex Smith.  Even made the playoffs and got the team to a 10-6 record.  Orlovsky never managed that and neither did the last gasp of Kerry Collins' career Indy got to see.

[CurBeatElite]

1 minute ago, Imgrandojji said:

Kerry Collins was a corpse in Indy.  His career is actually pretty strong.  Not the best basis of comparison.

 

As for not taking Cassel over Dan freaking Orlovsky, I think that's ridiculous.  Remember, Cassell got it done for a couple years as the starter of his own team in KC before injury forced the Chiefs to bring in Alex Smith.  Even made the playoffs and got the team to a 10-6 record.  Orlovsky never managed that and neither did the last gasp of Kerry Collins' career Indy got to see.

 

Ya, Orlovsky is a bit of a stretch -- but I'd give him a better chance of compiling a .500 record on the NE team than I would give Cassel to compile a .500 or better record on the Colts team Orlovsky walked into.

 

Collins actually was coming off a decent season and he got hurt very early in the year when he joined the Colts.  I would have rather had him as a back-up than Cassel at that time, and there is still no way Collins was going to pull off a winning record with the team he inherited when Peyton couldn't play.

 

I really think there are at least 1/2 dozen other QBs (Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Marino, Elway, Montana) who, if they played in the system Brady's in with Belichek for the same amount of time, would've accomplished similar or better things.  If Matt Cassel could come in as a rookie (I was wrong before, he had ~30 pass attempts in 4 years in college -- but was mainly a backup), and lead that team to 11 wins, there had to have been at least 15 other QBs in the NFL that year who could've done it with that team.

 

You're right, the Chiefs went to the playoffs with Cassel and he did go to a probowl, but that same year he was 19th or 20th in the league in passing yards, 14th QBR, and 26th in completion percentage --- the Chiefs took him to the playoffs, not the other way around.

[CaptainColt12]

10 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

his brain is part of his natural talent he is the best combo of the 2 out of anyone to ever play his arm talent also wasnt as lacking compared to the others either. I agree luck had more physical talent but not the brain peyton still had a phenomenal arm just not the wheels but that's not really necessary.

What people had concerns about Manning out of the draft was that he didn't have a very strong arm. You're probably talking about his accuracy, but when you say someone has a great arm, it's mostly their pure arm power. 

[Colts_Fan12]

8 minutes ago, CaptainColt12 said:

What people had concerns about Manning out of the draft was that he didn't have a very strong arm. You're probably talking about his accuracy, but when you say someone has a great arm, it's mostly their pure arm power. 

his arm power wasnt that weak imo either and yes his accuracy was great too.  he didnt have a huge arm like say Mahomes but he could still throw it deep and on point he was only lacking in athleticism imo and that like I said isnt very important if you're as smart as he was and had as quick of a release.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

his arm power wasnt that weak imo either and yes his accuracy was great too.  he didnt have a huge arm like say Mahomes but he could still throw it deep and on point he was only lacking in athleticism imo and that like I said isnt very important if you're as smart as he was and had as quick of a release.

The way he could read a defense and his quick release made up for not being able to run. I agree. Like I said he is in my top 3 of all-time, if not #1. 

[BigQungus]

23 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Eh.  Personally I don't believe the cheating stuff.  

 

There's no evidence Brady knew of that thing that there's no evidence even happened anyway. 

 

The fact that there's a perfectly valid scientific explanation for why the balls were below regulation PSI in a super cold environment doesn't exactly help matters. 

 

Neither does the fact that the Colts balls were also below PSI.

 

Nor does the fact that there's exactly zero other allegations of Brady cheating the game in any way.  Belichick yes, Brady no. Call the Patriots cheaters, sure, but don't single out TB12.

 

Honestly to every non-Colts fan, the Colts came out of that deal smelling worse than the Patriots did.  The fact that they couldn't prove anything just makes our guys look like sore losers.

 

Oh no, he certainly did cheat. Everyone knows Brady likes his footballs a little on the deflated side. I think he works with the guys that inflate the balls to make sure it's the pressure he desires. Plus, "accidentally" breaking his phone during the controversy seems a little fishy to me.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that Brady's personal trainer was caught feeding steroids to Edelman. Everyone knows how close Guerrero and Brady are, so it just feels fishy to me.

 

Now, with all that said, I don't think it's a good argument if you're trying to use that to say he's not the GOAT. There are many good arguments for that, but we don't really know how much and to what extent he cheats, so it's just kind of a lame argument