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Superstar QB/average team vs average QB/Complete team

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16 hours ago, Flash7 said:

Honest question: Where do Brady and the Pats fit in? Super QB and complete team? 

Brady was not elite until 07.  At least 3 superbowls happened during his "game manager with a knack for elevating his game in the clutch" phase.

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14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Why don’t we stop acting like “winning” and “QB play” are the same thing?

 

And why don’t we stop acting like there’s something wrong with having a great QB?

 

And why don’t we have a discussion about QBing and Jacoby Brissett without resorting to extremes?

Unfortunately poor QB play can more often than not lead to losses, and vice versa. Suppose that could be why they are mentioned at same time. As a fan, of course I want it all. Great QB, D, coach, etc = Great team, and hopefully championships. We can check most boxes. %100 agree on the extremes presented by some. Something does seem just a bit off about our passing game, but the team as a whole is playing some pretty good ball.

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18 hours ago, CR91 said:

Is the superstar QB overrated? Lets analyze it

 

Dan Marino - zero championships

 

Peyton Manning - one championship in indy

 

John Elway - zero championship before he had a run game.

 

Aaron Rodgers - one championship

 

Russel Wilson - zero championship after LOB and Lynch 

 

Andrew Luck - zero championship

 

Drew Brees - one championship

 

Now if we look at teams where the QB wasnt the main focus.

 

Big ben- Before Big ben started throwing 5000 yards every year, he was a game manager with an elite defense and/or very good running game and that led to two championships and three super bowls. Since then there has been zero championship

 

Eli manning - Again if you think of Eli's two championships, you dont think of Eli, you think of the defense that gave Brady fits and a very good running game.

 

Now im not saying the QB isnt important, but if you have a QB that can make enough plays and avoid mistakes, you can win and I think Ballard understood that and why the team is built to succeed even without a superstar QB

 

this is just the Jacoby thread with a different title.  how many super bowls do you think we win with him?  he would be among the worst Qbs to ever do it.

 

probably not a popular comment but how many Qbs worse than him have won in this era?  i think its zero 

 

 

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8 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

There are basically 2 approaches you see when it come to addressing the QB position in the NFL Draft......

 

1. Do whatever necessary to aquire the best QB you can. This approach typically values the guy with the most physical talent and potential. These QBs are typically taken in the first round, the best of the best are taken in the top 5. There are a lot of blockbuster trades made for these types of guys, some involving boatloads of draft picks. Very few of those big moves ever work out. Some teams get lucky and suck bad enough they have the right pick at the right time, like the Colts. If the right guy is there he isnt usually available for a trade.

 

But to get that top tier talent, you basically have to pay the price in a trade or suck bad enough to get it. And even if you do, its still the toughest evaluation in all of sports because so much goes into playing the position. You have to have the physical talent and the mental makeup. I dont

know what the odds are at landing a SB level QB, even with the first pick, but I'm sure you'd have better odds playing blackjack. 

 

2. Build the best team you can and find a QB that fits your team really well. There are guys who fall thru the cracks and make it out if the top 10 of the draft, pretty consistently. 

 

This seems to be what the most successful teams do. Tom Brady was picked with that philosophy. Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Brees.....none of these guys were looked at as the total package.

 

The Colts have the best young GM in the league. I really do believe that. He will find us a QB. Whether its Jacoby or not is irrelevent right now, because he is the guy, right now. 

 

But, I also think Brissett fits our team really well and is much better than he is getting credit for with Colts fans because they are a tad bit snobby about the QB position and are used to taking a QB #1 overall and have been watching two top notch QBs for the last 20 years. 

 

Jacoby has a lot of intangibles that dont show up on PFF. Even his detractors would admit that, I think. So I wont be surprised if he improves and winds up a success story. He has a lot of support on the field and is being put in a great position to succeed. He isn't some slouch, he has talent. And hes doing pretty well so far, as we have done much better than anyone could have expected with all we have been through. There is no reason to look for a replacement yet. 

 

 He absolutely is showing Winning intangibles. A really solid core.
I have great confidence he can be better than Rex Grossman, who on a good day might have beaten PM in the SB.

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15 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Very true and I know Theismann won league MVP in 1983 but in 1982 when they won the SB he was above average. Riggins and their O.Line carried them. I guess my point is, the game at KC reminded me of a 80's/90's game. Old school isn't always bad school :thmup:

The "Hogs" were responsible for most of the Skins wins. 

The Colts have a pretty similar O line so it makes winning a little easier.

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Just wanted to say we could’ve had a complete team with Luck but Grigson ruined that.

 

You can have a superstar QB and complete the team around them, you just have to be smart and not trade a 1st for players like Trent Richardson, draft players like Dorsett over Landon Collins or sign over the hill free agents like Andre Johnson and Trent Cole.

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33 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 He absolutely is showing Winning intangibles. A really solid core.
I have great confidence he can be better than Rex Grossman, who on a good day might have beaten PM in the SB.

People don’t realize that maybe getting hit as much in 2017 hurt him. This year he seems to break the pocket a little to soon afraid he is going to get hit and doesn’t go through his reads. The good thing is as he gets more comfy with this oline that is a easy fix.

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17 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To your 1st comment: My answer is - it is not the same thing (I agree) but the QB is the most important position on the field. So as long as JB plays well enough and the team wins he deserves some credit. Very little, if anyone in here has given JB any credit for the KC win. He wasn't the main reason why we won but he did enough not to lose and he gave his other teammates a chance to win. We won so he did his job in reality.

 

To your 2nd comment: I would rather have Luck, who wouldn't? But JB is getting the job done. Everyone wants a great QB but I just do not believe there is anyone in college right now that can step in and do better than JB is doing right now as a rookie. Nor do I think Chad Kelly can either but that is my opinion.

 

To your 3rd comment: That is a question you have to ask to basically several others in this forum saying JB is just average or below average and will never lead us anywhere. I have never posted extremes with JB, I have said JB is above average and we are winning with him which are facts if someone goes by the numbers and our 3-2 record.

Couldnt have said it better myself.The only thing "extreme" in here is how our qb gets no respect and how people are so sensitive when you actually give JB some props.If Luck would have played KC like that they would all would have called him a freakin genius for controlling the game and not slinging it. Chee I wonder why they all cant wait for him to fail!!Thats obvious.But why?This team is a single field goal and one dropped pass away from being unbeaten.Thats it.

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11 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You are my friend from the ESPN days with that Harrison jersey :thmup:. I know what you are saying. In a nutshell we all miss Luck, I do too but lets give JB a chance.

I'm hoping JB develops into THE guy. Save us the trouble of drafting a QB early.

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2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

this is just the Jacoby thread with a different title.  how many super bowls do you think we win with him?  he would be among the worst Qbs to ever do it.

 

probably not a popular comment but how many Qbs worse than him have won in this era?  i think its zero 

 

 

Nick Foles isnt any better than Jacoby, IMO. And Jacoby still isnt done developing. Foles has a ton of starts and is more of a finished product. 

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16 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

I'm hoping JB develops into THE guy. Save us the trouble of drafting a QB early.

That is our best chance to wind up with it all. Then we can continue to focus on the defense and add weapons around him. We have a ton of resources to build it, IF we can avoid using those resources to replace him.

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15 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In order for the JB haters to be happy, he needs to throw for 400 yards and 3 TD's. I am very disappointed in the way some of you think. All I care about is winning that is all it counts. JB could throw for 173 yards and only 1 TD and 1 INT but if we run for 150 yards and win who gives a crap. 

 

This definitely qualifies as posting extremes. 

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6 hours ago, Mr.NotSoCreative said:

Unfortunately poor QB play can more often than not lead to losses, and vice versa. Suppose that could be why they are mentioned at same time. As a fan, of course I want it all. Great QB, D, coach, etc = Great team, and hopefully championships. We can check most boxes. %100 agree on the extremes presented by some. Something does seem just a bit off about our passing game, but the team as a whole is playing some pretty good ball.

 

The point though is that just because a team has a winning record doesn't mean they have good QB play. I can give historical examples of this paradox, but I don't think I need to. 

 

By the way, I think the team as a whole is playing "okay." The KC game was excellent, especially on defense, but I remember the defense being shredded by the Raiders in the first half, by the Falcons in the second half, and by the Chargers for solid stretches. I remember the run game being off schedule against the Raiders, and the offense going 5/14 on third down against the Chiefs. 

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13 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

But, I also think Brissett fits our team really well and is much better than he is getting credit for with Colts fans because they are a tad bit snobby about the QB position and are used to taking a QB #1 overall and have been watching two top notch QBs for the last 20 years. 

 

 

That's not it. 

 

Plenty of fans on this same site discussed the things Luck wasn't doing well even as a rookie in 2012, and that theme remained throughout his career. The difference is that people weren't so rabidly defensive of Luck as they are of JB right now, which is a special irony. 

 

And despite Luck having issues throughout his time with the Colts, what really set him apart from JB was his ability to make big, game changing plays, even when he wasn't having a very good game. Luck was a special playmaker. 

 

Quote

Jacoby has a lot of intangibles that dont show up on PFF. Even his detractors would admit that, I think. 

 

I roll my eyes at this, because I don't see anyone saying 'PFF says JB isn't good, we need to trade up for a QB in 2020.' 

 

Quote

So I wont be surprised if he improves and winds up a success story. He has a lot of support on the field and is being put in a great position to succeed. He isn't some slouch, he has talent.

 

Aren't the so-called "detractors" acknowledging that JB has talent, but needs to improve in certain areas?

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31 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That's not it. 

 

Plenty of fans on this same site discussed the things Luck wasn't doing well even as a rookie in 2012, and that theme remained throughout his career. The difference is that people weren't so rabidly defensive of Luck as they are of JB right now, which is a special irony. 

 

And despite Luck having issues throughout his time with the Colts, what really set him apart from JB was his ability to make big, game changing plays, even when he wasn't having a very good game. Luck was a special playmaker. 

 

 

I roll my eyes at this, because I don't see anyone saying 'PFF says JB isn't good, we need to trade up for a QB in 2020.' 

 

 

Aren't the so-called "detractors" acknowledging that JB has talent, but needs to improve in certain areas?

It IS it, because Luck was absolutely freaking fantastic, and like you said they still picked him apart. Why? Because they had just watched Manning for 10+ years. Spoiled.

 

If Luck goes to Cleveland they worship him similar to the way they did Baker after his rookie year. Why? They didnt have Manning.

 

And I never said people were citing PFF, merely that it isnt all about passing yards, etc.

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3 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

It IS it, because Luck was absolutely freaking fantastic, and like you said they still picked him apart. Why? Because they had just watched Manning for 10+ years. Spoiled.

 

If Luck goes to Cleveland they worship him similar to the way they did Baker after his rookie year. Why? They didnt have Manning.

 

And I never said people were citing PFF, merely that it isnt all about passing yards, etc.

 

"Discussed the things he wasn't doing well" is not the same as "picked him apart." 

 

By the way, Colts fans had just watched some of the absolute worst QBing in franchise history for an entire season. Luck was automatically an upgrade from the terrible QBs we had in 2011. But he wasn't perfect, and acknowledging that he needed to improve in certain areas was legitimate discussion. 

 

And let's not aspire to be the Browns.

 

Lastly, it isn't all about passing yards, it's about his play at QB. We can watch him play and see what he does well and what he struggles with.

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10 hours ago, Superman said:

 

The point though is that just because a team has a winning record doesn't mean they have good QB play. I can give historical examples of this paradox, but I don't think I need to. 

 

By the way, I think the team as a whole is playing "okay." The KC game was excellent, especially on defense, but I remember the defense being shredded by the Raiders in the first half, by the Falcons in the second half, and by the Chargers for solid stretches. I remember the run game being off schedule against the Raiders, and the offense going 5/14 on third down against the Chiefs. 

I fully agree with this.  It’s why they are 3-2.  They are good enough to play with any team in the league if they play well but they are also bad enough to get beat by any team in the league if they are off.  

 

People are reacting to the KC game as if that’s how they have played all season and forget just a week before that people were questioning everything about the team after the Raiders game.  

 

This team has talent for sure but they are very young and inexperienced and like most teams like that they are inconsistent.  There are going to be growing pains along the way but there are going to be moments like the KC game as well where you see what they are fully capable of.

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3 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

The NFL has proven you can win Super Bowls with both.

This^^^

 

And as long as we find ourselves in the same reality that most NFL teams find themselves.... without a “superstar QB”.... we really oughta be pleased and thankful for Ballard and Reich’s approach to building this roster.

 

This new normal was bound to take some time (and wins) to sink in for a fan base used to having HoF-level QBs, especially in the manner with which Luck departed.

 

But I see us having weathered that storm quite well so far and I’m sticking with my forecast for 10 wins, an AFC South division title, and a playoff win.

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14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

"Discussed the things he wasn't doing well" is not the same as "picked him apart." 

 

By the way, Colts fans had just watched some of the absolute worst QBing in franchise history for an entire season. Luck was automatically an upgrade from the terrible QBs we had in 2011. But he wasn't perfect, and acknowledging that he needed to improve in certain areas was legitimate discussion. 

 

And let's not aspire to be the Browns.

 

Lastly, it isn't all about passing yards, it's about his play at QB. We can watch him play and see what he does well and what he struggles with.

 

Yes, but we also released Manning and he was the "control" they used to evaluate Lucks play, not the poor QB play in 2011. And that wasnt fair to Luck or the fanbase.

 

I am not aspiring to be the Browns, but it would be nice if our fan base were as excited about our team coming into this year, as they were about thiers. They have great fans, always have. We can learn a thing or two from them.

 

Look around the league at fans of winning teams, and I would venture to say that we have the most pessimistic fanbase in the league, despite having very little reason to be that way. At least among the top organizations, a group which we are certainly apart of. On this very board, it seems the majority of our fans still pick against us every single time we play a descent team.

 

"Yeah we are alright but the Patriots......" is a disease and it seems the majority of Colts fans are terminal. I feel like the majority of the Brissett criticism is a symptom of that disease. Just another reason to crap on our team. I get tired of it. 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

 

Yes, but we also released Manning and he was the "control" they used to evaluate Lucks play, not the poor QB play in 2011. And that wasnt fair to Luck or the fanbase.

 

I am not aspiring to be the Browns, but it would be nice if our fan base were as excited about our team coming into this year, as they were about thiers. They have great fans, always have. We can learn a thing or two from them.

 

Look around the league at fans of winning teams, and I would venture to say that we have the most pessimistic fanbase in the league, despite having very little reason to be that way. At least among the top organizations, a group which we are certainly apart of. On this very board, it seems the majority of our fans still pick against us every single time we play a descent team.

 

"Yeah we are alright but the Patriots......" is a disease and it seems the majority of Colts fans are terminal. I feel like the majority of the Brissett criticism is a symptom of that disease. Just another reason to crap on our team. I get tired of it. 

 

You're talking about a lot of different things, some of which I agree with. Colts fans do tend to have an inferiority complex, they do tend to have trouble acknowledging good and keeping perspective when things are bad, and there are some -- SOME -- who will always compare current players to previous HOF level players. 

 

But we don't need a control to evaluate players, including QBs. Discussing aspects of JB's play that need to improve is not only done in comparison with the players that came before him. 

 

What's annoying to me personally is that you and others continue to push this angle, as if anyone who offers evaluation of JB's play is either incapable of being fair to him, only cares about having a great QB even at the expense of the rest of the team, or just wants to dump on the team. 

 

This turns into these extreme arguments -- this thread being an example -- where no one will acknowledge that saying JB needs to be better is not the same as being pessimistic.

 

And forgive me for not being impressed by the Browns fanbase. They've been miserable for 25 years, it doesn't take much to get them excited. And let's see how they would react if they had a team ready to contend, but took a gut punch two weeks before the season started like we did. 

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On 10/12/2019 at 12:38 PM, GoatBeard said:

Nick Foles isnt any better than Jacoby, IMO. And Jacoby still isnt done developing. Foles has a ton of starts and is more of a finished product. 

i do think foles is better, i kind of wanted the colts to go after him but that wasnt going to happen with luck here.  now i wish we had!

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I just want to know who the next Superstar QB is, and exactly how and when we can get him on the 53 man.  And is he plug and play, or have to be planted, grown, and harvested?

 

I want the best players we can get, but at all positions.  I'd love to get a Wilson type in round 3.  Or anything remote. I'd feel quite bad mortgaging a lot of draft picks to get a guy at the top, and then he didn't pan out. 

 

If JB7 improves to upper 1/3 tier of this NFL QB group, I'm on board for him next year too. If he languishes at #20 or below, then my support swings to see if a future replacement can be drafted to compete with C. Kelly to take over at some point.

 

But I'm not ready to replace JB7 unless they Know the guy is taking over for good.  Replace talent with better talent right then. Switching back after a mistake is not going to go well, nor keeping JB7 as backup longterm, I don't think.  I'm going to support the GM/HC/ and QB, and any decisions/changes down the road too. This is an interesting season, for certain.

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16 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

I just want to know who the next Superstar QB is, and exactly how and when we can get him on the 53 man.  And is he plug and play, or have to be planted, grown, and harvested?

 

I want the best players we can get, but at all positions.  I'd love to get a Wilson type in round 3.  Or anything remote. I'd feel quite bad mortgaging a lot of draft picks to get a guy at the top, and then he didn't pan out. 

 

If JB7 improves to upper 1/3 tier of this NFL QB group, I'm on board for him next year too. If he languishes at #20 or below, then my support swings to see if a future replacement can be drafted to compete with C. Kelly to take over at some point.

 

But I'm not ready to replace JB7 unless they Know the guy is taking over for good.  Replace talent with better talent right then. Switching back after a mistake is not going to go well, nor keeping JB7 as backup longterm, I don't think.  I'm going to support the GM/HC/ and QB, and any decisions/changes down the road too. This is an interesting season, for certain.

That is the 1 million dollar question, who is the next great QB? I watch these college QB's now and I have no idea. Look at Fromm yesterday and most people love him but he has a pick 6 and Georgia loses. The draft is a crap shoot IMO. How good is Lawrence who won't come out until 2021? I am not even sold on him. That is why I am pro JB because we all knew Luck would be very good if not great, I have no idea about these college guys now. It is my opinion but Kelly isn't the answer either. 

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I think a big part of this hyper-critical discussion of JB (et al) is an artifact of the current social media situation. Everything is getting picked apart. Especially police activity. The NFL replay system is an extension of the idea that every aspect of life needs to be perfectly adjudicated. It's not sustainable - due to human nature, chaos theory, attention span, signal-to-noise ratio, and several other considerations. 

 

I'm curious how this will play out...it doesn't seem healthy to me. Or fruitful, for that matter.

 

JB is doing fine, in general. He can be nitpicked under a microscope. So can CK. Brady hasn't carried the Pats on his back in the past couple games. Anyone can be nitpicked, depending on the mindset and bias of the 'spewer of reason/hate/bias/perspective/you name it'.

 

So what?

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On 10/11/2019 at 4:38 PM, CR91 said:

 

They also had dominate defenses with strong running game in Jamel Lewis and Ray Rice

 True, but Flacco’s defense that year wasn’t one of the better Raven’s defenses. 

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12 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is the 1 million dollar question, who is the next great QB? I watch these college QB's now and I have no idea. Look at Fromm yesterday and most people love him but he has a pick 6 and Georgia loses. The draft is a crap shoot IMO. How good is Lawrence who won't come out until 2021? I am not even sold on him. That is why I am pro JB because we all knew Luck would be very good if not great, I have no idea about these college guys now. It is my opinion but Kelly isn't the answer either. 

We also won't be able to get one of the top 3 QB's in the draft, so our odds are a bit worse of getting a "sure thing".

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On 10/11/2019 at 3:15 PM, CR91 said:

Is the superstar QB overrated? Lets analyze it...Now im not saying the QB isnt important, but if you have a QB that can make enough plays and avoid mistakes, you can win and I think Ballard understood that and why the team is built to succeed even without a superstar QB

 

Let's look at the prolific New England Patriots.  They are a good case study because 1) they replaced the franchise QB with a sixth round draft pick and went on to win a lot of championships, and 2) they are about to replace the franchise QB with ... someone.

 

Bill Belichick protected his 'system QB' with a defense that allowed him to win without winning.  TB12 began his historic run with a controversial call on a fumble/incomplete pass.  He marched the team down the field so that a kicker could win the game.  That kicker won a few championships for New England.  At Brady's peak, the team surrounded him with some great tools and won some more championships.  Now, Coach is focusing on defense again as the team prepares to bring on a new QB.

 

If Bill cannot win without Tom, I would have to concede that a stud QB is the foundation of a winning franchise.  If Coach can continue to win with Tom's replacement, then I would reluctantly allow that these stud QBs are overrated.

 

It's all situational, but I am hoping that the Patriots find a way to win after TB12 moves on.

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On 10/13/2019 at 1:54 AM, GoColts8818 said:

The NFL has proven you can win Super Bowls with both.

 

I agree (and liked your post), but few teams have built a dynasty around a mediocre QB (Bradshaw's Steelers being the obvious exception).

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On 10/13/2019 at 12:22 PM, Superman said:

 

You're talking about a lot of different things, some of which I agree with. Colts fans do tend to have an inferiority complex, they do tend to have trouble acknowledging good and keeping perspective when things are bad, and there are some -- SOME -- who will always compare current players to previous HOF level players. 

 

But we don't need a control to evaluate players, including QBs. Discussing aspects of JB's play that need to improve is not only done in comparison with the players that came before him. 

 

What's annoying to me personally is that you and others continue to push this angle, as if anyone who offers evaluation of JB's play is either incapable of being fair to him, only cares about having a great QB even at the expense of the rest of the team, or just wants to dump on the team. 

 

This turns into these extreme arguments -- this thread being an example -- where no one will acknowledge that saying JB needs to be better is not the same as being pessimistic.

 

And forgive me for not being impressed by the Browns fanbase. They've been miserable for 25 years, it doesn't take much to get them excited. And let's see how they would react if they had a team ready to contend, but took a gut punch two weeks before the season started like we did. 

Supe it's not an angle whatsoever, it's purely the truth.

 

I am, of course not talking about you, or what you do on this board in terms of evaluating players. I always enjoy hearing your take on players.

 

I am obviously talking about the people spewing bile on here after the loss to the Raiders, and every other loss for that matter. And a lot of that includes tripe about Jacoby Brissett that just goes way over the top.

 

We can disagree on Brissett, it's not really a big deal. And I apologize for quoting you in the other thread and giving you the impression I am including you in this. I'm really not. I quoted you because I would rather debate the topic with someone like yourself than get sucked into a flame war with some troll, which has happened to me a time or two. That's all. Me and you can have a somewhat interesting discussion. I always enjoy it. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, GoatBeard said:

Supe it's not an angle whatsoever, it's purely the truth.

 

 

It's not, though. Anyone who disagrees with you on JB isn't necessarily being unfair to him or trolling. You're pushing this argument out to the extremes.

 

Respect to the rest of the post, but there's a lot of talking past each other on this topic. 

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4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It's not, though. Anyone who disagrees with you on JB isn't necessarily being unfair to him or trolling. You're pushing this argument out to the extremes.

 

Respect to the rest of the post, but there's a lot of talking past each other on this topic. 

I never said this. In fact, I've said the opposite, repeatedly.

 

But, let's just move on.

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3 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

I never said this. In fact, I've said the opposite, repeatedly.

 

But, let's just move on.

 

I don't know if you're really considering how some of your comments are coming across on this topic. But I'm good with moving on, just voicing my frustration with the way this discussion seems to be framed, IMO.

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On 10/13/2019 at 11:03 AM, GoatBeard said:

Look around the league at fans of winning teams, and I would venture to say that we have the most pessimistic fanbase in the league

 

i think its the chiefs, they are really bad

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8 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

 

i think its the chiefs, they are really bad

Right. I just dont put them in that group. They havent won, and that's why. 

 

We have. And we are just as jaded as they are. 

 

That bothers me.

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