Week 4 impressions: Brissett

[Myles]

18 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

 

 

im still not convinced the colts will ever go far with Jacoby though 

I think most agree with that.   Not with the current team anyway.   If the defense was better, we might be 4-0.   But that is just an "if".   

I just don't want to end up reaching for a QB every couple years when the odds of them being better than Brissett are not great.  Brisset is just an above average QB, but that is hard to find even in the first round.   

The Browns are a good example - Kizer, Kessler, Manziel, Weeden, McCoy and Quinn just since 2007.   1/2 of those were first round picks.

 

Brissett about as good as Eli Manning ever was.   Eli had the playoff runs, but outside of that, he was not good at all.  Career .500 record.  More INT's than can fit on this post.   Now that is not saying a whole lot for Brissett, but he can do the job if we fix the holes.

[John Waylon]

Just now, Myles said:

Brisset is just an above average QB, but that is hard to find even in the first round.   

The Browns are a good example - Kizer, Kessler, Manziel, Weeden, McCoy and Quinn just since 2007.   1/2 of those were first round picks.

 

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, Myles said:

Hind sight, that worked well for them.   What if it would have been last year and they would have done the same thing for Rosen?   

I would say giving up 2 first round draft picks and a third is a big price for a low % chance of getting a QB better than slightly above average.  

 

I've seen too many teams let the rest of the roster suffer while putting their capital into the QB position every couple years.   I would prefer to build a solid team with an above average QB and hope we can come across an elite QB with a mid round draft pick.  

 

Rosen with Andy Reid on the Chiefs? Might be a different story. 

 

And of course, the criteria is that it's a QB the staff loves. And how much more likely is that you hit on a guy you love in the first round, versus coming across an elite QB with a mid round pick? That only happens once every few years. While teams are doing a better job of getting production out of young QBs, we still don't have enough evidence to suggest that you'll find a franchise QB outside of the first round. 

 

I think, if JB isn't good enough in 2019, 2020 is the right time to grab the next guy, since JB is still under contract and the rookie wage scale is still in place (new CBA in 2021, things might change). But if you can't get a guy you really like, don't force it. Keep building the rest of the roster and trying to make up for any deficiencies at QB. But I think we're seeing a league where high level QBing is still super important for championship teams. It's still rare for a team with an average QB to make a deep playoff run, and when it does happen, it's because they have an elite defense.

 

By the way, even with an elite defense, that "average" QB has to bring something special to the table, at least for a couple games. Nick Foles was special in the SB. Joe Flacco was special on deep balls, and did so without turning the ball over at all in the playoffs. Peyton Manning was still a cerebral master who manipulated the Patriots' defense in the AFCCG. 

 

I'm okay with focusing on the rest of the roster if moving up for a QB just isn't in the cards, but I'm not shutting my mind off to the possibility, because I think it's still important that you have a really good QB.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

We also have to wait until the end of the season and see what the team looks like. How does JB look and how does the chemistry between the young WR develop.

I agree you don’t want to reach on a QB when you already have a top 15. You have to be dang sure that rookie QB is going to work out. Also your rookie QB is not going to be set up for success if you don’t fix the other problems. So it’s almost better to fix the other issues first then go from there. Mahomes has had the success early because he already had the team around him.

[Myles]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

 

And of course, the criteria is that it's a QB the staff loves. And how much more likely is that you hit on a guy you love in the first round, versus coming across an elite QB with a mid round pick? That only happens once every few years. While teams are doing a better job of getting production out of young QBs, we still don't have enough evidence to suggest that you'll find a franchise QB outside of the first round. 

 

 

 

This info is from a year ago on where starting QB's were drafted.  Although the 1st round picks may be a little better with Luck, Rivers, Big Ben, Wentz and Rodgers, it isn't head and shoulders better than the other rounds with Brees, Wilson, Prescott and Brady.  I just don't think giving up multiple picks to move up for a low % chance is a great idea for this team at this point.   

Add to that.   We would be depending on Ballard to evaluate the players.   This is the same Ballard who traded for Brissett and signed him to an extension.  

 

1st Round: Goff (1), Winston (1), Luck (1), Eli Manning (1), Bradford (1), Stafford (1), Palmer (1), Newton (1), Smith (1), Trubisky (2), Mariota (2), Wentz (2), Bortles (3), Ryan (3), Rivers (4), Roethlisberger (11), Cutler (11), Watson (12), Flacco (18), Rodgers (24)

2nd Round: Brees (32), Dalton (35), Carr (36)

3rd Round: Wilson (75), McCown (81)

4th Round: Cousins (102), Prescott (135)

5th Round: Hogan (162)

6th Round: Taylor (180), Brady (199)

7th Round: Siemian (250)

Undrafted: Hoyer

[Colts_Fan12]

18 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Rosen with Andy Reid on the Chiefs? Might be a different story. 

 

And of course, the criteria is that it's a QB the staff loves. And how much more likely is that you hit on a guy you love in the first round, versus coming across an elite QB with a mid round pick? That only happens once every few years. While teams are doing a better job of getting production out of young QBs, we still don't have enough evidence to suggest that you'll find a franchise QB outside of the first round. 

 

I think, if JB isn't good enough in 2019, 2020 is the right time to grab the next guy, since JB is still under contract and the rookie wage scale is still in place (new CBA in 2021, things might change). But if you can't get a guy you really like, don't force it. Keep building the rest of the roster and trying to make up for any deficiencies at QB. But I think we're seeing a league where high level QBing is still super important for championship teams. It's still rare for a team with an average QB to make a deep playoff run, and when it does happen, it's because they have an elite defense.

 

By the way, even with an elite defense, that "average" QB has to bring something special to the table, at least for a couple games. Nick Foles was special in the SB. Joe Flacco was special on deep balls, and did so without turning the ball over at all in the playoffs. Peyton Manning was still a cerebral master who manipulated the Patriots' defense in the AFCCG. 

 

I'm okay with focusing on the rest of the roster if moving up for a QB just isn't in the cards, but I'm not shutting my mind off to the possibility, because I think it's still important that you have a really good QB.

would you take Rosen on the Colts with Reich? they are more than likely taking a QB in the draft so he could possibly be had just curious what your thoughts are.

[Imgrandojji]

54 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Back on topic, I'm in JB's corner, and I want him to succeed. But I do think there are legitimate concerns about his play and abilities that it's okay to discuss. Doing so isn't a reflection of anyone's fandom. It's just an honest evaluation of the person playing the most important position on the team. 

There are legitimate concerns in his play, and every QB in the league with maybe 2 exceptions has areas  they could improve on, but I wish you were a little bit better at recognizing that you can single out individual mistakes for literally any quarterback.  Individual plays mean little when not viewed in light of the broader context of the overall game.

 

Like you'll higlight an individual play where brissett didn't see someone open deep, and the obvious question in response is, is this a one-off mistake or is this a more systemic issue like a bad habit or a mental blind spot.  Without speaking to the broader context that's impossible to know.

 

I also wish it was easier to discuss some of the hardships Brissett is operating with without being accused of "making excuses."  That's the other side of this particular coin

[Superman]

Just now, Colts_Fan12 said:

would you take Rosen on the Colts with Reich? they are more than likely taking a QB in the draft so he could possibly be had just curious what your thoughts are.

 

I think Rosen with the Colts could be better than Rosen with Steve Wilks on the Cardinals, or whatever it is they're doing with him down in Miami. But I wouldn't give up anything significant to trade for Rosen at this point.

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

I think Rosen with the Colts could be better than Rosen with Steve Wilks on the Cardinals, or whatever it is they're doing with him down in Miami. But I wouldn't give up anything significant to trade for Rosen at this point.

I don't know if it would even take something significant at this point honestly lol

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Imgrandojji said:

I wish you were a little bit better at recognizing that you can single out individual mistakes for literally any quarterback.

 

That's entirely irrelevant. We're talking about the QB of the Colts. It doesn't matter what other QBs do or don't do. It matters what we need JB to do.

 

Based on the composition of this roster right now, we need our QB to make more plays, to anticipate throws better, to complete more passes down field, to anticipate coverages pre-snap and adjust more quickly post-snap, etc. Maybe JB can do those things as time goes on. But if this team is going to make a postseason run, we absolutely need that level of QBing.

 

Quote

I also wish it was easier to discuss some of the hardships Brissett is operating with without being accused of "making excuses."  That's the other side of this particular coin

 

For me, it's making excuses when someone says 'Brissett needs to have better anticipation,' and the response is 'what do you expect, the receivers dropped 8 passes, without those we might have won the game.' 

 

I think a lot of the discussion of Brissett and his circumstances is missing each other because there are some agendas that are competing. And make no mistakes, there are plenty of longstanding agendas with regard to QBing and team composition that are on display in this very thread, some of which pre-date Brissett by several years. Some of this goes all the way back to fans not being happy with the decision to get rid of Manning, some of it has to do with the poor job Polian did of keeping up the roster, some of it is about Grigson and Pagano, etc. 

 

But when I say I think JB needs to do certain things better, it's not because I'm unaware that every QB has flaws. And it's not because I don't like JB.

[Superman]

12 minutes ago, Myles said:

 

This info is from a year ago on where starting QB's were drafted.  Although the 1st round picks may be a little better with Luck, Rivers, Big Ben, Wentz and Rodgers, it isn't head and shoulders better than the other rounds with Brees, Wilson, Prescott and Brady.  I just don't think giving up multiple picks to move up for a low % chance is a great idea for this team at this point.   

Add to that.   We would be depending on Ballard to evaluate the players.   This is the same Ballard who traded for Brissett and signed him to an extension.  

 

1st Round: Goff (1), Winston (1), Luck (1), Eli Manning (1), Bradford (1), Stafford (1), Palmer (1), Newton (1), Smith (1), Trubisky (2), Mariota (2), Wentz (2), Bortles (3), Ryan (3), Rivers (4), Roethlisberger (11), Cutler (11), Watson (12), Flacco (18), Rodgers (24)

2nd Round: Brees (32), Dalton (35), Carr (36)

3rd Round: Wilson (75), McCown (81)

4th Round: Cousins (102), Prescott (135)

5th Round: Hogan (162)

6th Round: Taylor (180), Brady (199)

7th Round: Siemian (250)

Undrafted: Hoyer

 

How many of those guys outside of the first round are good enough to make a deep playoff run? Three? (And I'm being generous with Prescott, since they haven't actually made a deep playoff run yet.) And all three of them landed in great situations where they were allowed to grow into a franchise role. 

 

My angle is not that if you take a guy in the first round that it's going to guarantee you anything. My angle is that you're way more likely to get a franchise guy in the first round. I think your list supports my position.

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I don't know if it would even take something significant at this point honestly lol

 

More to the point, I'm not sure Rosen would be better for the Colts than JB, especially not to the degree that he would need to be to justify moving off of JB after committing to him so strongly over the last couple years. 

 

I also think Josh Rosen has some "Bo Callahan" to him, and I don't think I'd commit to him as a franchise QB in general.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This play you can defiantly see where Brissett missed Cain. I don’t think though it’s because he is bad or can’t improve. This is a trust issue with Cain. He has to build the trust that if he throws the ball to that spot Cain is going to be there. It requires throwing it before Cain gets there. That is the anticipation and trust JB will need to gain from his WR. I don’t think this is something that can’t be improved on. This is something that will come with more chemistry with Cain and the WR. My gripe is with people who say he can’t improve.

 

 

[Imgrandojji]

31 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

would you take Rosen on the Colts with Reich? 

I wouldn't.  Whether it's fair or not, Josh Rosen is damaged goods right now.  His career is on the verge of being torpedoed before it ever had a chance to begin

 

For all his imperfections Brissett was always considered a high-floor player, meaning the worst you're going to get out of him is a decent game manager type similar to what Brissett did in 2017.  Rosen's floor is clearly lower than 2017 Brissett.

 

That said, picking him up as a potential QB2 to develop behind Brissett is something I would consider.  But Ballard is clearly all in on developing Brissett himself right now and has Hoyer locked in for at least another year after this one

 

Tell ya what if we were hedging our bets the guy I'd like to see us bring in is Nick Mullens.  He looked pretty good when Garoppolo got hurt and he'd make a fantastic QB2,and the 49ers already have a decent QB2 in CJ Beathard

 

If we didn't get Hoyer, who I love as a mentor type QB2, I would have been beating the Mullens drum very hard.

[stitches]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

If Brissett still looks like a low ceiling, above average starter at the end of the year, I have no problem giving up a future first for the right prospect. I don't know how it will all shake out this year, but if we're in striking distance for someone, it might not take as much as you think to get him.

 

In 2017, the Chiefs gave up #27 and #91, plus their first rounder in 2018, to move up to #10 for Mahomes. Similar situation, they had a good QB that they knew was limited, they weren't bad the previous year, but they knew they wanted to strike while the iron was hot, so they made the big move while they still had a veteran in place. Then they traded the veteran for a young starter on defense and a third rounder.

 

I'd just let it play out, and make an honest evaluation at the end of the season. I'm definitely not gonna tank to get a higher draft pick. Even if I wasn't completely opposed to that strategy -- which I am, for the record -- there are other teams already tanking. And like you said, they aren't going to move off the top two or three spots this year without getting a huge ransom, so it's a bad strategy anyway. 

 

My pipe dream that the Broncos/Dolphins/Bengals all hate Justin Herbert, and we can find a way to get him.

Yep, Chiefs gave up a 3d and a future 1st to move up and get Mahomes, Texans gave up just a future 1st to go get their guy, the Jets gave up 3 seconds to move up for their guy, etc. We probably won't be able to move up to top 3, but if the guy we like drops to like... 6-7-8 IMO we will be able to move up without sacrificing our whole future(i.e. we might have to give up a future 1st). 

 

I love Herbert's talent and I think there is a tentalizing potential in Love. I just posted in Dane Bruglers' early QB ranking in his top 60 for the draft:

NFL people are calling Love's playmaking ability and potential “Mahomes-like”. 

 

There are other QBs that are intriguing too... 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Right now I think you improve the defense and team as a whole before thinking about a QB change. Then see what you have.  It’s way to early to be thinking we need another QB. That discussion should come at the end of the season. 

[Imgrandojji]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yep, Chiefs gave up a 3d and a future 1st to move up and get Mahomes, Texans gave up just a future 1st to go get their guy, the Jets gave up 3 seconds to move up for their guy, etc. We probably won't be able to move up to top 3, but if the guy we like drops to like... 6-7-8 IMO we will be able to move up without sacrificing our whole future(i.e. we might have to give up a future 1st). 

 

I love Herbert's talent and I think there is a tentalizing potential in Love. I just posted in Dane Bruglers' early QB ranking in his top 60 for the draft:

NFL people are calling Love's playmaking ability and potential “Mahomes-like”. 

 

There are other QBs that are intriguing too... 

Honestly at this point we have some desperate needs to improve our DL and secondary, I would target players there and pick up some more defensive playmakers, and maybe look for a Russel Wilson type to fall to the third round if we think we need to move on at QB

 

We have like 5 team needs more important than improving an above average QB. 

 

In order of priority as I see it we need help at: DL, LB, CB, RB, WR,  When we've hit there we can worry about QB

 

That said I haven't heard Ballard say a word to suggest that he's in any way dissatisfied with our current QB situation so we'll just see what happens when actions speak louder than words

[aaron11]

you dont draft for biggest need, you draft who can make the most impact.

[Imgrandojji]

4 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

you dont draft for biggest need, you draft who can make the most impact.

That's true, but the question is who can make the most impact on your team.  need is always a factor. 

 

For example I don't think we'll see KC draft a quarterback with their first rounder this year.  I suspect they'll draft the best available defensive player, because that's what they need and where a hit on the pick would have the biggest impact for them

[Myles]

36 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

My angle is not that if you take a guy in the first round that it's going to guarantee you anything. My angle is that you're way more likely to get a franchise guy in the first round. I think your list supports my position.

However you are much more likely to waste draft stock too.   Missing on a QB in the 3rd round (Mcown) is not as bad as missing in the 1st round (Mariota).   

[Colts_Fan12]

35 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

More to the point, I'm not sure Rosen would be better for the Colts than JB, especially not to the degree that he would need to be to justify moving off of JB after committing to him so strongly over the last couple years. 

 

I also think Josh Rosen has some "Bo Callahan" to him, and I don't think I'd commit to him as a franchise QB in general.

thanks I dont think he will be much better than JB if at all was just curious what you think. I'd rather just draft someone if JB isnt the answer 

[Imgrandojji]

1 hour ago, aaron11 said:

 

im still not convinced the colts will ever go far with Jacoby though 

I don't think we'll go far this year but I also think Brissett isn't our biggest limiting factor right now.  We have some pretty big issues across the board. 

 

I think we need to get better at LB, I think the weakness of our linebacker corps is exposing both our secondary and our DL right now and thus is at the crux of most of our defensive issues right now.  I'd like to see this team rely more on its LBs and switch to a 3-4 defense to create more unpredictability in pass rush and blitz packages.  We obviously don't have the LBs for that right now though

 

I think we need to get better at WR, although hopefully getting TY back will help. 

 

I also think we need a big strong bull rushing RB which we just don't have right now

[Superman]

27 minutes ago, stitches said:

NFL people are calling Love's playmaking ability and potential “Mahomes-like”. 

 

 

Thanks for the link. I just browsed that thread as well. It's interesting that Love has buzz as a special arm, and Ballard was in KC for much of the evaluation of Mahomes, and Ballard is said to love Love. I'll have to keep an eye out for him...

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, Myles said:

However you are much more likely to waste draft stock too.   Missing on a QB in the 3rd round (Mcown) is not as bad as missing in the 1st round (Mariota).   

 

Of course. Getting your guy is about good evaluation and good coaching, along with the player doing his part along the way. There are a lot of ingredients needed to be successful. 

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

thanks I dont think he will be much better than JB if at all was just curious what you think. I'd rather just draft someone if JB isnt the answer 

 

Yup.

[Imgrandojji]

I just don't see us being a QB away from being contenders over the next 2-3 years.  If the D develops faster than expected maybe but we've got a lot of youth in our defensive group and we're seeing them make a lot of mistakes right now.

 

Was kinda hoping the D would be further along right now but that was a bit optimistic considering how quickly Ballard tried to turn us around.  Right now 3 out of our 5 biggest problems as I see it are on the defensive end, and a lot of them could be helped by picking up 1 more veteran linebacker. 

 

If I had to guess, Ballard's doing a lot of scouting of impact level linebackers and defensive linemen right now.  I think our secondary will grow into their roles but linebacker in particular is a huge sore spot right now, especially ILB

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

A good way to make sure a rookie QB is successful is to build a team first then go look for the QB. At this point we don’t even know if we will need one.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

This play you can defiantly see where Brissett missed Cain. I don’t think though it’s because he is bad or can’t improve. This is a trust issue with Cain. He has to build the trust that if he throws the ball to that spot Cain is going to be there. It requires throwing it before Cain gets there. That is the anticipation and trust JB will need to gain from his WR. I don’t think this is something that can’t be improved on. This is something that will come with more chemistry with Cain and the WR. My gripe is with people who say he can’t improve.

 

 

 

This is a more involved problem than just 'he didn't see Cain,' though. He never looked to the right. He locked in on his primary read, didn't go through any progressions, and attempted a low percentage pass when he probably had a completion on the other side of the field. 

 

I also completely disagree with this having anything to do with trusting Cain. He threw Cain a deep ball into double coverage last week. He didn't know Cain was going to be open, he didn't go through his progressions, and never knew that it was an option.

 

And ultimately, if the QB doesn't trust a receiver, that receiver shouldn't be on the field on third down, period. 

 

This is something that JB must improve on. Time will tell whether he can/will. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is a more involved problem than just 'he didn't see Cain,' though. He never looked to the right. He locked in on his primary read, didn't go through any progressions, and attempted a low percentage pass when he probably had a completion on the other side of the field. 

 

I also completely disagree with this having anything to do with trusting Cain. He threw Cain a deep ball into double coverage last week. He didn't know Cain was going to be open, he didn't go through his progressions, and never knew that it was an option.

 

And ultimately, if the QB doesn't trust a receiver, that receiver shouldn't be on the field on third down, period. 

 

This is something that JB must improve on. Time will tell whether he can/will. 

Cain is a rookie basically coming off a injury. Rome wasn’t built in a day. QB and WR don’t just all of a sudden become great together. It takes work. Reggie’s stats were not good at all his rookie year.  JB has trust in guys like Doyle and TY. As the team grows together the chemistry should come. To say it will never get better or improve is ridiculous. Is it possible it won’t sure anything is possible. Don’t write it off 4 games into the season when this is the first year he has played with these guys. That is my gripe. Yes things can improve but don’t be so dang bull headed you have it stuck in your head it won’t get better and you want a new QB. Let’s let this play out. It takes awhile to build trust and chemistry. They can’t build chemistry without playing time. We can’t help funchess got hurt and they are getting more snaps.

[shasta519]

23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is a more involved problem than just 'he didn't see Cain,' though. He never looked to the right. He locked in on his primary read, didn't go through any progressions, and attempted a low percentage pass when he probably had a completion on the other side of the field. 

 

I also completely disagree with this having anything to do with trusting Cain. He threw Cain a deep ball into double coverage last week. He didn't know Cain was going to be open, he didn't go through his progressions, and never knew that it was an option.

 

And ultimately, if the QB doesn't trust a receiver, that receiver shouldn't be on the field on third down, period. 

 

This is something that JB must improve on. Time will tell whether he can/will. 

 

That pick 6 against OAK was so easy to see coming. The play before he locks in left on Hines on a short out pattern for the first play. And then on the very next play...locks in on Pascal on the left. #25 for OAK is already moving to that spot before JB throws it because he reads it too easily. He's going to have get better at going through reads...because right now...he is just executing Reich's play script without much improvisation (aside from a few flashes here and there).

[Goatface Killah]

47 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That's entirely irrelevant. We're talking about the QB of the Colts. It doesn't matter what other QBs do or don't do. It matters what we need JB to do.

 

Based on the composition of this roster right now, we need our QB to make more plays, to anticipate throws better, to complete more passes down field, to anticipate coverages pre-snap and adjust more quickly post-snap, etc. Maybe JB can do those things as time goes on. But if this team is going to make a postseason run, we absolutely need that level of QBing.

 

 

For me, it's making excuses when someone says 'Brissett needs to have better anticipation,' and the response is 'what do you expect, the receivers dropped 8 passes, without those we might have won the game.' 

 

I think a lot of the discussion of Brissett and his circumstances is missing each other because there are some agendas that are competing. And make no mistakes, there are plenty of longstanding agendas with regard to QBing and team composition that are on display in this very thread, some of which pre-date Brissett by several years. Some of this goes all the way back to fans not being happy with the decision to get rid of Manning, some of it has to do with the poor job Polian did of keeping up the roster, some of it is about Grigson and Pagano, etc. 

 

But when I say I think JB needs to do certain things better, it's not because I'm unaware that every QB has flaws. And it's not because I don't like JB.

Hold up.

 

It's not making excuses to point to what the guy is doing in the games right now, to counter an argument that he lowers our perceived ceiling, in the future. You cant say hes holding us back when the reality has been that it's not him holding us back. So, I think he actually raises our ceiling. He is certainly not been a detriment to us, so far, so I dont und.rstand that viewpoint, at all. He raised our ceiling in 2017, and he has raised our ceiling in 2019.

 

You make a statement in this post.

 

"That's entirely irrelevant. We're talking about the QB of the Colts. It doesn't matter what other QBs do or don't do. It matters what we need JB to do."

 

But you ignore the fact that Frank Reich isn't asking Jacoby to do the things you're criticizing him for not doing. And you are judging based off a perceived limitation you have placed on him based off play of other QBs. Frank is not asking JB to hit Campbell everytime hes open deep, and that's not what we "need" him to do. We need, and are asking him to do, exactly what he has been doing. And that's the scale I'm judging him on. Focus on the short passing game, take care of the ball, turn 3rd and 4th down into first down and score TDs in the redzone. And that's exactly what hes doing, very well. If he defies the coach and tried to hit Campbell everytime he thinks hes open deep, that's hero ball and the coach wouldn't be pleased with him.

 

So it's not fair to ask him to do something as a fan, when hes not asked to do that by the coach. And it's not wise to judge him on a scale meant for a different kind of QB in a different scenario. 

 

I also take issue with the next statement, immediately following it.

 

"For me, it's making excuses when someone says 'Brissett needs to have better anticipation,' and the response is 'what do you expect, the receivers dropped 8 passes, without those we might have won the game."

 

No it's not, it's making excuses to ignore what hes being asked to do and how well hes doing it, and criticize him for not doing what hes not being asked to do. All I'm doing is judging him each game based on the decisions the coach and QB actually made instead of a fantasy scenario you've created in your head. They called a play, they've discussed the play in practice, they've determined what they are trying to get out of the play. Jacoby threw a pass and the receiver dropped it. It would've been a successful play if he had caught it and the Colts would've gotten what they were looking to get out of the play. It's that simple, and it's being confused with interpretations that arent really apart of the situation. What you think he should've been trying to get out of the play isn't relevant at all. What he chose to do and what happened are very relevant.

 

I get tired of that blind criticism of players based of your observation of a play and what it should've been. You cant lose an argument like that. Because it's not based in reality and it can be taken deeper and deeper into fantasy land, where anything is possible. The reality is what was called, his decision, and the outcome.

 

I judge games based purely of what happens. Jacoby is not responsible for the low risk nature of the offense, Frank is. That's his call. As Jacoby continues to progress, he might open it up. But until he does, he expects Jacoby to execute the game plan, and he has. He has drove the team down the field through a myriad of circumstances so far. Penalties, injuries, drops all affect him and the perception of whether or not he did his job. So it's all relevant. Because those are the actual reasons our drives are stalling, not his decisions to not throw the fly route to Campbell or his limitations as a signal caller.

 

Whether or not we need to try and upgrade the position is an argument for another day, and we will have that discussion at some point. It will be based on who's available and whether or not we are willing to pay whatever price it takes to get that person. But 4 games into the season is too early. I dont think hes proven he is the guy yet, but hes answered some questions for sure. I dont think he has created more that werent already there. 

 

Whether or not we use our resources to aquire another QB is something we wont know for awhile. But unless he regresses, which is unlikely due to the fact he is still gaining experience and is surrounded by youth that should get better as well, I dont see it happening. I think Ballard looks for every reason to keep Jacoby where he is at. Because it gives him more ammunition to address the true problems with the team, which are on the defensive side. A better defense enhances this team far more than a marginally more talented signal caller, because you likely lose some of his attributes in the process, minimizing the improvement. Ballard has said repeatedly he doesnt want a team that is about one guy, and Jacoby fits that mold as the teams signal caller.

 

You also called Jacoby an "above average NFL starter". Which I completely agree with. Hes 4 games into his 2nd year as a starter. So if he is already "above average", 20 games in, I like his chances of planting himself as our QB for a long time as this season wears on.

 

All I want from the fanbase is to give Jacoby a fair chance in his quest to replace Andrew Luck. They need to realize you can fudge it up far easier than you can replace him. Because he's pretty good. Dont take what hes doing for granted because you feel like he isnt perfect. Judge him based of what his job is, not what you think it should be.

[Imgrandojji]

2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Mahomes has had the success early because he already had the team around him.

This is also true of Rodgers, Brady, and Roethlisberger, among many others.

 

It arguably should have been true of this team, but mistakes and youth on D messed that up to an extent

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

6 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

That pick 6 against OAK was so easy to see coming. The play before he locks in left on Hines on a short out pattern for the first play. And then on the very next play...locks in on Pascal on the left. #25 for OAK is already moving to that spot before JB throws it because he reads it too easily. He's going to have get better at going through reads...because right now...he is just executing Reich's play script without much improvisation (aside from a few flashes here and there).

Pascal ran the wrong route on that play. Doesn’t excuse locking down on receivers but it does put it in context.

[Btown_Colt]

27 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Cain is a rookie basically coming off a injury. Rome wasn’t built in a day. QB and WR don’t just all of a sudden become great together. It takes work. Reggie’s stats were not good at all his rookie year.  JB has trust in guys like Doyle and TY. As the team grows together the chemistry should come. To say it will never get better or improve is ridiculous. Is it possible it won’t sure anything is possible. Don’t write it off 4 games into the season when this is the first year he has played with these guys. That is my gripe. Yes things can improve but don’t be so dang bull headed you have it stuck in your head it won’t get better and you want a new QB. Let’s let this play out. It takes awhile to build trust and chemistry. They can’t build chemistry without playing time. We can’t help funchess got hurt and they are getting more snaps.

Please tell me how it had anything to do with trust or chemistry?

 

If he doesn’t trust Cain, why was he locked on to him when he threw the pick 6. I mean the most important drive of the game and he was throwing to him, but he don’t trust him?

 

Why don’t you just admit the right now JB doesn’t read the field, doesn’t work through progressions, and locks on to receivers? If you watch the game, it’s pretty obvious.

 

It’s why he threw the pick 6. As soon as the ball was snapped, he never took his eyes off Cain. The safety started to follow the TE but saw JB locked on Cain.

 

EDIT: It was Pascal he was throwing to, not Cain. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

This is also true of Rodgers, Brady, and Roethlisberger, among many others.

Which is why I would rather improve the team and see what we have before we go chasing a QB that may or not be great. Especially when it looks like we already have a top 15 or maybe even a top 10 QB. Let’s let the young guys mature and fix the team and who knows what we might have.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, Btown_Colt said:

Please tell me how it had anything to do with trust or chemistry?

 

If he doesn’t trust Cain, why was he locked on to him when he threw the pick 6. I mean the most important drive of the game and he was throwing to him, but he don’t trust him?

 

Why don’t you just admit the right now JB doesn’t read the field, doesn’t work through progressions, and locks on to receivers? If you watch the game, it’s pretty obvious.

 

It’s why he threw the pick 6. As soon as the ball was snapped, he never took his eyes off Cain. The safety started to follow the TE but saw JB locked on Cain.

The point is every QB does that at times. No one is saying it wasn’t a mistake. He even called it a bone headed play after the game. Just quit saying he can’t improve. He had no consistent targets Sunday.  Let’s see what we have after 16 games not 4.  

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, John Waylon said:

 

Yep.  We are kinda screwed.

[Imgrandojji]

Just now, Chloe6124 said:

Which is why I would rather improve the team and see what we have before we go chasing a QB that may or not be great. Especially when it looks like we already have a top 15 or maybe even a top 10 QB. Let’s let the young guys mature and fix the team and who knows what we might have.

Interesting point of comparisonis the 2018 49ers.  They started off terrible the year before with not much to work with on either side of the ball.  Decided to invest in Jimmy Garoppolo, and got a good price for him, giving up only a 2nd rounder.  They go on a 6--0 run to finish the year including wins against playoff teams. 

 

They figured "OK we have our QB, time to make a team around him"

 

Then 2 games into the next season, while they're still trying to assemble this alleged new team, Garoppolo is having trouble making plays, makes a stupid decision to scramble for a first down on a relatively meaningless 3rd and 10, and gets blasted.  Boom goes his knee,and suddenly 49ers are up a creek without a paddle.

 

Similar thing happened to Washington with RGIII, and to us with Luck for that matter.

 

It's always better to build the strongest team you can, before looking for that premium guy.  Because trying to assemble a strong team on the fly after you get him is an invitation to lose him for stupid reasons.

 

Brissett will do for now unless we stumble across one of those guys.  He's playing well.  He's been productive.    He's easily a net positive on the year so far as long as you keep your expectations modest.  I certainly wouldn't break the bank to replace him with as many other urgent needs as we seem to have.

 

 

[Kenzicocapontas]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

That's entirely irrelevant. We're talking about the QB of the Colts. It doesn't matter what other QBs do or don't do. It matters what we need JB to do.

 

Based on the composition of this roster right now, we need our QB to make more plays, to anticipate throws better, to complete more passes down field, to anticipate coverages pre-snap and adjust more quickly post-snap, etc. Maybe JB can do those things as time goes on. But if this team is going to make a postseason run, we absolutely need that level of QBing.

 

 

For me, it's making excuses when someone says 'Brissett needs to have better anticipation,' and the response is 'what do you expect, the receivers dropped 8 passes, without those we might have won the game.' 

 

I think a lot of the discussion of Brissett and his circumstances is missing each other because there are some agendas that are competing. And make no mistakes, there are plenty of longstanding agendas with regard to QBing and team composition that are on display in this very thread, some of which pre-date Brissett by several years. Some of this goes all the way back to fans not being happy with the decision to get rid of Manning, some of it has to do with the poor job Polian did of keeping up the roster, some of it is about Grigson and Pagano, etc. 

 

But when I say I think JB needs to do certain things better, it's not because I'm unaware that every QB has flaws. And it's not because I don't like JB.

Right there with you. I loved the results of Brissett and in general as a player and person, but even before the raiders game I thought maybe I was missing out on whatever some people were drinking with the koolaid. Then I started looking through his pff grades and I was like, "Oh, Okay thats why I wasn't drooling over what I was seeing."

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

Cain is a rookie basically coming off a injury. Rome wasn’t built in a day. QB and WR don’t just all of a sudden become great together. It takes work. Reggie’s stats were not good at all his rookie year.  JB has trust in guys like Doyle and TY. As the team grows together the chemistry should come. To say it will never get better or improve is ridiculous. Is it possible it won’t sure anything is possible. Don’t write it off 4 games into the season when this is the first year he has played with these guys. That is my gripe. Yes things can improve but don’t be so dang bull headed you have it stuck in your head it won’t get better and you want a new QB. Let’s let this play out. It takes awhile to build trust and chemistry. They can’t build chemistry without playing time. We can’t help funchess got hurt and they are getting more snaps.

 

None of this is relevant to the clip above. JB didn't throw Cain the ball because he didn't look Cain's way, plain and simple. There's nothing else to it. It's not at all about Cain, it's entirely about JB.