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Pat Mcafee on Brissett

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Only thing that had me taken aback was bringing Mahomes into the conversation. I don't see Brissett ever getting to that level.

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4 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Only thing that had me taken aback was bringing Mahomes into the conversation. I don't see Brissett ever getting to that level.

Why?   Mahomes level right now is insane.    If he continues this level, I would agree.   That's a platform no QB has ever stood on,   but I have to believe DCs will figure out his weakness at some point soon.    Jacoby is just getting started.   We will see

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4 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Only thing that had me taken aback was bringing Mahomes into the conversation. I don't see Brissett ever getting to that level.

He was talking about longevity not talent. He thinks Mahomes does a lot of crazy stuff and is eventually going to get himself hurt.  

 

I still think its crazy if we end getting a franchisee QB for Phillip Dorsett. No trading draft picks or tanking. Colts are so dang lucky with QB. Some teams can never figure it out. Although a lot of it is organization and not building a team the right way.

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I agree with McAfee for the most part. 

 

I am curious as to how he can say Baker is not over rated because he has only played so many games. That is exactly why he is over rated. He still hasnt accomplished anything and he was talked about as a SB contender. He has a long way to go before he gets to that level, if he ever does. And his leadership is atrocious, IMO. Just today he got in some spat with Rex Ryan about comments he made as an analyst. Kid, go watch film, not Rex.

 

He brought up a great point about Jacoby though.....the guy is just a smart QB. The times he shows the presence of mind to throw it away, how he always seems to slide at the right moment, he seems to know when to ditch the pocket and when to hang in there a little longer, he takes the check down when he needs to and looks for something down the field when he needs to. I really think we might find ourselves in a position where we upgraded in some crucial areas. And while he obviously doesnt have the natural talent AL has, he just might be the better QB for this team going forward. He still has to prove that, but so far he has looked the part.

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The most interesting part of this podcast for me was when he was speaking with Zak Keefer. Keefer mentioned that when they started 1-5 last year it was actually Jacoby who called the players only meeting. That struck me as an odd thing for backup QB to do. 
 

I really think the jealousy Andrew mentioned in his speech wasn’t completely resolved and was a significant part of his retirement. 

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3 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

I agree with McAfee for the most part. 

 

I am curious as to how he can say Baker is not over rated because he has only played so many games. That is exactly why he is over rated. He still hasnt accomplished anything and he was talked about as a SB contender. He has a long way to go before he gets to that level, if he ever does. And his leadership is atrocious, IMO. Just today he got in some spat with Rex Ryan about comments he made as an analyst. Kid, go watch film, not Rex.

 

He brought up a great point about Jacoby though.....the guy is just a smart QB. The times he shows the presence of mind to throw it away, how he always seems to slide at the right moment, he seems to know when to ditch the pocket and when to hang in there a little longer, he takes the check down when he needs to and looks for something down the field when he needs to. I really think we might find ourselves in a position where we upgraded in some crucial areas. And while he obviously doesnt have the natural talent AL has, he just might be the better QB for this team going forward. He still has to prove that, but so far he has looked the part.

Genuinely curious, what talent does AL have that is natural and not nurtured that JB does not possess? 

24 minutes ago, cjrulli said:

The most interesting part of this podcast for me was when he was speaking with Zak Keefer. Keefer mentioned that when they started 1-5 last year it was actually Jacoby who called the players only meeting. That struck me as an odd thing for backup QB to do. 
 

I really think the jealousy Andrew mentioned in his speech wasn’t completely resolved and was a significant part of his retirement. 

Yeahhhhhh, I don't know about that. 

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11 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

Genuinely curious, what talent does AL have that is natural and not nurtured that JB does not possess? 

Yeahhhhhh, I don't know about that. 

For starters, Andrew is an elite athlete and physical specimen. I truly believe he could've been an all pro caliber TE if he wanted. Jacoby is nowhere near that kind of athlete.

 

Secondly, he is highly intelligent, and was very good at reading defenses. I dont think Jacoby has that, or ever will on that level. That doesnt mean he cant be very good at it. Luck had a unique understanding of those things coming right into the league. Brissett was mostly a running QB in college and has had to develop that aspect of his game, far more than Andrew ever did. It came naturally to him.

 

All you have to do is look at some of the comeback wins he led us to to see how the combination of that incredible athletic ability, along with his football intelligence made him a true force to be reckoned with.

 

I dont think Jacoby will ever be the type of QB that makes you expect the Colts to score 30+ every game. I dont think he will lead us to big comebacks the way Andrew did either. But I think he can be every bit as successful from a winning standpoint, or even moreso. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

For starters, Andrew is an elite athlete and physical specimen. I truly believe he could've been an all pro caliber TE if he wanted. Jacoby is nowhere near that kind of athlete.

 

Secondly, he is highly intelligent, and was very good at reading defenses. I dont think Jacoby has that, or ever will on that level. That doesnt mean he cant be very good at it. Luck had a unique understanding of those things coming right into the league. Brissett was mostly a running QB in college and has had to develop that aspect of his game, far more than Andrew ever did. It came naturally to him.

 

All you have to do is look at some of the comeback wins he led us to to see how the combination of that incredible athletic ability, along with his football intelligence made him a true force to be reckoned with.

 

I dont think Jacoby will ever be the type of QB that makes you expect the Colts to score 30+ every game. I dont think he will lead us to big comebacks the way Andrew did either. But I think he can be every bit as successful from a winning standpoint, or even moreso. 

 

 

I honestly rememeber a lot of inconsistent play from Andrew Luck. He would be garbage one half and then light it up. And can't help but remember how he played against the Pats and the last game against KC. 

 

I'm just a casual fan, but never saw Luck as an elite athlete. He seemed to read defenses well, but that can not be learned? 

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14 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

I honestly rememeber a lot of inconsistent play from Andrew Luck. He would be garbage one half and then light it up. And can't help but remember how he played against the Pats and the last game against KC. 

 

I'm just a casual fan, but never saw Luck as an elite athlete. He seemed to read defenses well, but that can not be learned? 

You never noticed his incredible athleticism? I find that hard to believe. 

 

And yes reading defenses can be learned. But Jacoby is way behind where Luck started, and hes 4 years in. 

 

I think people love to % on Andrew, but they need to understand that we put it all on him. And it's different when the team counts on you to win games for them. The pressure is different when you are considered the franchise. Jacoby is not in that position. Reich is calling games differently than he would with Andrew. He is game planning differently as well. He is trying to make it easy for him. Andrew Luck never got that luxury. He came in from day 1 and was our best player. He replaced an all time great. And people expected him to be an all time great himself. 

 

Coming into this year, most people expected Jacoby to flop. That's a huge difference.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

I honestly rememeber a lot of inconsistent play from Andrew Luck. He would be garbage one half and then light it up. And can't help but remember how he played against the Pats and the last game against KC. 

 

I'm just a casual fan, but never saw Luck as an elite athlete. He seemed to read defenses well, but that can not be learned? 

 

Luck did have inconsistencies but he also had seriously RUBBISH coaching. One day Jim Irsay will sit down and really beat himself up for letting that negligence carry on as long as it did.

Luck's last game v the Pats was excellent. You may want to rewatch that one. He did EVERYTHING you could ask of him. That game reminded me of when Peyton finally broke his rough streak against New England, it was 04 or 05 when he went into Foxborough and smashed them 40-21 or something like that. All game they threw everything at him but he kept coming back at them. To me, that's the first game where Belichick realized, he had to treat this QB differently. That game is what led to things like the '4th and 2' call. The realization that you were not going to beat this guy.

 

Yes, Luck's last game v the Pats was an L but rewatch that game and see the circumstances. It felt like Luck did everything and the Colts just did zero to help him. There were 40something dressed players, guys were dropping balls left and right, the defense was effectively a failure in progress (that Gordon TD, yuck), it was pretty much Luck and not much else. I'd have really loved to see AL play Belichick this season, with a full accompaniment of weapons, I really think he had that NE coach figured out.

 

All that to say, yes Luck was inconsistent early on but in one season with proper coaching, he was the best QB in the league not named Mahomes. Elite mind, elite athlete. Dude was a gem. Brissett will never get to that level. JB7 may be more successful, heck he may go on to be like Tom Brady and win multiple rings but in terms of that pure mix of mind and physical ability, forget it. Luck was singular. 

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13 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

You never noticed his incredible athleticism? I find that hard to believe. 

 

And yes reading defenses can be learned. But Jacoby is way behind where Luck started, and hes 4 years in. 

 

I think people love to % on Andrew, but they need to understand that we put it all on him. And it's different when the team counts on you to win games for them. The pressure is different when you are considered the franchise. Jacoby is not in that position. Reich is calling games differently than he would with Andrew. He is game planning differently as well. He is trying to make it easy for him. Andrew Luck never got that luxury. He came in from day 1 and was our best player. He replaced an all time great. And people expected him to be an all time great himself. 

 

Coming into this year, most people expected Jacoby to flop. That's a huge difference.

 

 

The jury is still out on JB, but what I do like is he throws less ints  than Luck. He also makes alot of the same plays Luck could despite  being less athletic.  He can run for a first down, throw on the run, and use his legs to extend plays.

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15 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

 

Luck did have inconsistencies but he also had seriously RUBBISH coaching. One day Jim Irsay will sit down and really beat himself up for letting that negligence carry on as long as it did.

Luck's last game v the Pats was excellent. You may want to rewatch that one. He did EVERYTHING you could ask of him. That game reminded me of when Peyton finally broke his rough streak against New England, it was 04 or 05 when he went into Foxborough and smashed them 40-21 or something like that. All game they threw everything at him but he kept coming back at them. To me, that's the first game where Belichick realized, he had to treat this QB differently. That game is what led to things like the '4th and 2' call. The realization that you were not going to beat this guy.

 

Yes, Luck's last game v the Pats was an L but rewatch that game and see the circumstances. It felt like Luck did everything and the Colts just did zero to help him. There were 40something dressed players, guys were dropping balls left and right, the defense was effectively a failure in progress (that Gordon TD, yuck), it was pretty much Luck and not much else. I'd have really loved to see AL play Belichick this season, with a full accompaniment of weapons, I really think he had that NE coach figured out.

 

All that to say, yes Luck was inconsistent early on but in one season with proper coaching, he was the best QB in the league not named Mahomes. Elite mind, elite athlete. Dude was a gem. Brissett will never get to that level. JB7 may be more successful, heck he may go on to be like Tom Brady and win multiple rings but in terms of that pure mix of mind and physical ability, forget it. Luck was singular. 

Right. And people forget how Mannings first few tries against the Patriots went. The dude is 9-15 all time vs them and fared pretty well in his later years, some would even say he had their number at one point in his career.

 

People said the exact same things about him for his first 6-7 years. I remember a game against the Chargers he threw 5 picks in the first half lol. Should've heard the conversations after that game!

 

Andrew was remarkable when he was healthy. He just didnt last long enough to master his position, which takes a long time to do. Tom Brady had won 3 SBs and was still considered a game manager. He wasnt the same Brady people know today. And 7 injury plagued seasons isn't enough to master playing QB in the NFL. Regardless he did very well and was a very, very good QB.

 

Peyton Mannings first 3 playoff games, he average a 47% completion percentage, 186 passing yards and in the 3 games totalled a single TD pass. 

 

Luck NEVER performed that poorly against any opponent in the playoffs, with much worse teams around him. 

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4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

The jury is still out on JB, but what I do like is he throws less ints  than Luck. He also makes alot of the same plays Luck could despite  being less athletic.  He can run for a first down, throw on the run, and use his legs to extend plays.

I do too. Sometimes I think we value franchise QBs too much and seem to think it's the only way to be successful. To a point, it might even be true.

 

I just like the way Chris Ballard is building this team. And I think Brissett is a good fit for the finished product, IF Ballard can complete the job. Hes done very well so far.

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9 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

I do too. Sometimes I think we value franchise QBs too much and seem to think it's the only way to be successful. To a point, it might even be true.

 

I just like the way Chris Ballard is building this team. And I think Brissett is a good fit for the finished product, IF Ballard can complete the job. Hes done very well so far.

Yea I'm curious  how we will fare in the chiefs  game with Brissett.  The offense  disappeared  last year in the playoffs.  I'm curious  to see if Brissett  can find a way to keep the game  competitive  or if we get beat 62 to 7.

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3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Yea I'm curious  how we will fare in the chiefs  game with Brissett.  The offense  disappeared  last year in the playoffs.  I'm curious  to see if Brissett  can find a way to keep the game  competitive  or if we get beat 62 to 7.

Its gonna be a tough one, we know that.

 

But, I'm an optimist. And until they beat us, I expect us to win, it's just how I am. 

 

I think with Brissett leading the charge, we are at least gonna play them the way we need to play them. With AL, we might try to match them, which is a big mistake.

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3 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

Its gonna be a tough one, we know that.

 

But, I'm an optimist. And until they beat us, I expect us to win, it's just how I am. 

 

I think with Brissett leading the charge, we are at least gonna play them the way we need to play them. With AL, we might try to match them, which is a big mistake.

I agree we should  have run more last year.

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1 hour ago, GoatBeard said:

For starters, Andrew is an elite athlete and physical specimen. I truly believe he could've been an all pro caliber TE if he wanted. Jacoby is nowhere near that kind of athlete.

 

Secondly, he is highly intelligent, and was very good at reading defenses. I dont think Jacoby has that, or ever will on that level. That doesnt mean he cant be very good at it. Luck had a unique understanding of those things coming right into the league. Brissett was mostly a running QB in college and has had to develop that aspect of his game, far more than Andrew ever did. It came naturally to him.

 

All you have to do is look at some of the comeback wins he led us to to see how the combination of that incredible athletic ability, along with his football intelligence made him a true force to be reckoned with.

 

I dont think Jacoby will ever be the type of QB that makes you expect the Colts to score 30+ every game. I dont think he will lead us to big comebacks the way Andrew did either. But I think he can be every bit as successful from a winning standpoint, or even moreso. 

 

 

Kinda nice not having all the picks and "bonehead" throws tho, right?

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31 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

Right. And people forget how Mannings first few tries against the Patriots went. The dude is 9-15 all time vs them and fared pretty well in his later years, some would even say he had their number at one point in his career.

 

People said the exact same things about him for his first 6-7 years. I remember a game against the Chargers he threw 5 picks in the first half lol. Should've heard the conversations after that game!

 

Andrew was remarkable when he was healthy. He just didnt last long enough to master his position, which takes a long time to do. Tom Brady had won 3 SBs and was still considered a game manager. He wasnt the same Brady people know today. And 7 injury plagued seasons isn't enough to master playing QB in the NFL. Regardless he did very well and was a very, very good QB.

 

Peyton Mannings first 3 playoff games, he average a 47% completion percentage, 186 passing yards and in the 3 games totalled a single TD pass. 

 

Luck NEVER performed that poorly against any opponent in the playoffs, with much worse teams around him. 

 

44 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

Right. And people forget how Mannings first few tries against the Patriots went. The dude is 9-15 all time vs them and fared pretty well in his later years, some would even say he had their number at one point in his career.

 

People said the exact same things about him for his first 6-7 years. I remember a game against the Chargers he threw 5 picks in the first half lol. Should've heard the conversations after that game!

 

Andrew was remarkable when he was healthy. He just didnt last long enough to master his position, which takes a long time to do. Tom Brady had won 3 SBs and was still considered a game manager. He wasnt the same Brady people know today. And 7 injury plagued seasons isn't enough to master playing QB in the NFL. Regardless he did very well and was a very, very good QB.

 

Peyton Mannings first 3 playoff games, he average a 47% completion percentage, 186 passing yards and in the 3 games totalled a single TD pass. 

 

Luck NEVER performed that poorly against any opponent in the playoffs, with much worse teams around him. 

Andrew Luck never seemed to improve much, though. 

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1 hour ago, WoolMagnet said:

Kinda nice not having all the picks and "bonehead" throws tho, right?

I eluded to that earlier, even though I dont think Andrew made nearly as many boneheaded throws as people suggest. The guy threw the ball about 40 times a game, every game. Of course he had some poor throws here and there. 

 

The guy was a great football player, and honestly, I would take him over Jacoby 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. Because at the end of the day it's about which QB can win you a SB. I have no doubt Andrew was good enough to win a chip someday. Jacoby still has a lot to prove in that regard.

 

But, as I've said numerous times, I'm glad we have him and have been very impressed with his play so far. 

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1 hour ago, WoolMagnet said:

Kinda nice not having all the picks and "bonehead" throws tho, right?

 

In terms of volume Luck had a fair few picks, but that's what you get for throwing so much. His Int % wasn't actually all that bad. It was actually lower than Manning's... 

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Mahomes got clocked in the Ravens game. Because he got. Back up fans and media thinks he is fine. But we Colts fans know that has a cumulative effect on a QB.  I don’t like JB running and taking hits. The QB sneak is good though.

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Jacoby might not have the same athleticism that Luck had, but his arm is lights years better. He has good pocket presence, and is smart with the football. 

 

I think Brissett he has had the benefit from learning from two great QB's, and has picked up some great attributes from each and made them his own. He will get better at reading defenses too.

 

I absolutely love that he keeps in touch with Bill Parcells. 

 

Plus I don't care what Belichick says, he knows how well Jacoby is playing. 

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4 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

Jacoby might not have the same athleticism that Luck had, but his arm is lights years better. He has good pocket presence, and is smart with the football. 

 

I think Brissett he has had the benefit from learning from two great QB's, and has picked up some great attributes from each and made them his own. He will get better at reading defenses too.

 

I absolutely love that he keeps in touch with Bill Parcells. 

 

Plus I don't care what Belichick says, he knows how well Jacoby is playing. 

 

Fun fact... for QBs who have started at least 16 games in the league since 2000, can you guess who has the lowest INT%?

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12 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Only thing that had me taken aback was bringing Mahomes into the conversation. I don't see Brissett ever getting to that level.

I agree.   Brissetts ceiling isn't even close to MaHomes.   

 

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50 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Fun fact... for QBs who have started at least 16 games in the league since 2000, can you guess who has the lowest INT%?

 

giphy.gif

 

I'll take Curtis Painter for -$4,000 Alex! lol 

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Just now, lollygagger8 said:

 

giphy.gif

 

I'll take Curtis Painter for -$4,000 Alex! lol 

 

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, but for other listeners, to clarify a lower INT% is good :P

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1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, but for other listeners, to clarify a lower INT% is good :P

 

200.gif

 

Me sarcastic? Never! :)

 

(I still think we need a sarcastic font on here btw) 

 

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56 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Fun fact... for QBs who have started at least 16 games in the league since 2000, can you guess who has the lowest INT%?

Aaron Rodgers?

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7 minutes ago, pacolts56 said:

Aaron Rodgers?

 

Good guess, #2 on the list. Didn't really mean for it to be an actual quiz! 

 

Go here for the list:

http://pfref.com/tiny/AyfUO

 

Shows it's not exactly a be all end all metric, but it does show QBs who don't give it up, and I think that's pretty key. Don't beat yourself, make them beat you. 

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7 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

 

Andrew Luck never seemed to improve much, though. 

 

Yeah, that's flat out wrong. Bring any sane metric and Luck improved on it last year. Heck, bring couch surfer SLOB's eyeball test metric and Luck beat even that garbage metric too. Like Manning, we all saw what happened when he was missing. Your comment is mind boggling.

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5 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Good guess, #2 on the list. Didn't really mean for it to be an actual quiz! 

 

Go here for the list:

http://pfref.com/tiny/AyfUO

 

Shows it's not exactly a be all end all metric, but it does show QBs who don't give it up, and I think that's pretty key. Don't beat yourself, make them beat you. 

 worth pointing out the guy in second place has 9 times as many attempts as JB.  throw enough passes and sooner or later some of them are getting tipped and picked off through no fault of the QB.  JB has taken care of the ball, but i think its a little early to bring up that hes been better than rogers or brady in this metric

 

Mahomes is up there too and it feels different for him.  he throws quite a lot per game

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47 minutes ago, Myles said:

I agree.   Brissetts ceiling isn't even close to MaHomes.   

 

He wasn’t talking talent. He was talking about longevity. He thinks Mahomes plays kind of wild and is going to hurt himself one day.

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4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

He wasn’t talking talent. He was talking about longevity. He thinks Mahomes plays kind of wild and is going to hurt himself one day.

Oh.   Brissett's style of play is much more likely to extend a career.   Having him for 10 years would allow us to build around him for a decade.  

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47 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

 worth pointing out the guy in second place has 9 times as many attempts as JB.  throw enough passes and sooner or later some of them are getting tipped and picked off through no fault of the QB.  JB has taken care of the ball, but i think its a little early to bring up that hes been better than rogers or brady in this metric

 

Mahomes is up there too and it feels different for him.  he throws quite a lot per game

 

It wasn't a serious attempt to hold him up, as you say the sample size is small. But it supports what we've seen of him so far in that he's very risk adverse. 

 

The volume of passes shouldn't make a difference as we're talking a %, all it will do is give you a bigger sample. That's why it was a fallacy when people held Luck up as turnover machine based on the volume of interceptions, when his actual rate wasn't that bad.

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2 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

Jacoby might not have the same athleticism that Luck had, but his arm is lights years better. He has good pocket presence, and is smart with the football. 

 

I think Brissett he has had the benefit from learning from two great QB's, and has picked up some great attributes from each and made them his own. He will get better at reading defenses too.

 

I absolutely love that he keeps in touch with Bill Parcells. 

 

Plus I don't care what Belichick says, he knows how well Jacoby is playing. 

 

My comparison for Brissett is Donovan McNabb, big enough to bounce off a few dudes but always looking to pass than run and capable of getting those handful of yards if necessary with his legs. McNabb had Andy Reid, Brissett has Frank Reich, both very good play callers. 

 

Plus, I feel we can build a championship defense with what we have committed to him. He will end up being a bargain if we make the playoffs, let alone go farther. 

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7 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

I eluded to that earlier, even though I dont think Andrew made nearly as many boneheaded throws as people suggest. The guy threw the ball about 40 times a game, every game. Of course he had some poor throws here and there. 

 

The guy was a great football player, and honestly, I would take him over Jacoby 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. Because at the end of the day it's about which QB can win you a SB. I have no doubt Andrew was good enough to win a chip someday. Jacoby still has a lot to prove in that regard.

 

But, as I've said numerous times, I'm glad we have him and have been very impressed with his play so far. 

Peyton, Andrew, Jacoby.... its natural for us to compare them.

Really not fair though, all their styles, attributes, weaknesses, etc are so different.  Not to mention coaches, teams, etc.

 Andrew was a wonderful  talent.  But i always thought he lacked that next level foot on the neck attitude.

  By no means did i think we would see QB play anywhere near Luck's from JB.  However, JB has REALLY impressed me.  I think Reich is a big part of this.  I'm not sold yet JB is the long-term "franchise" guy, but he is making me more of a believer every week.  I'm excited for the team's future.  I think the KC game will tell us alot about our present.

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In regards to Mahomes, can we take a step back? Everyone in this league treats him as if he's already better than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Joe Montana, yet the kid hasn't even played two full seasons. Cam Newton looked unstoppable in 2015, but look at him now. We have no idea how good or bad Mahomes may be in the future, so don't treat him as a top 5 all-time QB.

To further prove my point, do you remember Peyton Hillis? Probably not. Look him up.

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12 minutes ago, WoolMagnet said:

Peyton, Andrew, Jacoby.... its natural for us to compare them.

Really not fair though, all their styles, attributes, weaknesses, etc are so different.  Not to mention coaches, teams, etc.

 Andrew was a wonderful  talent.  But i always thought he lacked that next level foot on the neck attitude.

  By no means did i think we would see QB play anywhere near Luck's from JB.  However, JB has REALLY impressed me.  I think Reich is a big part of this.  I'm not sold yet JB is the long-term "franchise" guy, but he is making me more of a believer every week.  I'm excited for the team's future.  I think the KC game will tell us alot about our present.

That KC game won’t tell me much. Lamar Jackson even looked bad against them. If we do keep it close though it will say a lot.

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