Time to abandon zone coverage?

[BProland85]

It seems like when this defense has gone man coverage, they have faired much better against the quality passing teams. Plus we have corners who do well in man coverage such as Quincy Wilson, Rock Ya-Sin, and Pierre Desir. Zone coverage simply allows for too much soft coverage underneath in my opinion. Matt Ryan simply picked us apart too much in the 2nd half last game. I think he was something like 23 of 24. 

 

On a side note we really need Hooker to come back soon to help prevent big plays from opposing offenses. I could see Ballard drafting a talented FS prospect next year if Hooker continues to have health struggles. Someone like JR Reed from Georgia in the 3rd would be nice.

[ProblChld32]

6 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

It seems like when this defense has gone man coverage, they have faired much better against the quality passing teams. Plus we have corners who do well in man coverage such as Quincy Wilson, Rock Ya-Sin, and Pierre Desir. Zone coverage simply allows for too much soft coverage underneath in my opinion. Matt Ryan simply picked us apart too much in the 2nd half last game. I think he was something like 23 of 24. 

 

On a side note we really need Hooker to come back soon to help prevent big plays from opposing offenses. I could see Ballard drafting a talented FS prospect next year if Hooker continues to have health struggles. Someone like JR Reed from Georgia in the 3rd would be nice.

 

I don’t think it should be abandoned at all. I think that it should be sprinkled in, if you play man all game that makes you a one dimensional defense. Zone still needs to be utilized, sprinkled in and disguised to help create turnovers.  

[GoColts00]

20 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

It seems like when this defense has gone man coverage, they have faired much better against the quality passing teams. Plus we have corners who do well in man coverage such as Quincy Wilson, Rock Ya-Sin, and Pierre Desir. Zone coverage simply allows for too much soft coverage underneath in my opinion. Matt Ryan simply picked us apart too much in the 2nd half last game. I think he was something like 23 of 24. 

 

On a side note we really need Hooker to come back soon to help prevent big plays from opposing offenses. I could see Ballard drafting a talented FS prospect next year if Hooker continues to have health struggles. Someone like JR Reed from Georgia in the 3rd would be nice.

I agree that we should run Man more often. Maybe a 55/45 split. We need to be able to run both.

I do think J.R. will go higher than 3rd Rd tho. IMO, he's upper 2nd Rd

[CoachLite]

There are hybrid defensive schemes (and their variations), like Cover 3 as a base, that have shown promise IF you have the personnel and enough understanding of the system to implement them.

[jameszeigler834]

41 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

It seems like when this defense has gone man coverage, they have faired much better against the quality passing teams. Plus we have corners who do well in man coverage such as Quincy Wilson, Rock Ya-Sin, and Pierre Desir. Zone coverage simply allows for too much soft coverage underneath in my opinion. Matt Ryan simply picked us apart too much in the 2nd half last game. I think he was something like 23 of 24. 

 

On a side note we really need Hooker to come back soon to help prevent big plays from opposing offenses. I could see Ballard drafting a talented FS prospect next year if Hooker continues to have health struggles. Someone like JR Reed from Georgia in the 3rd would be nice.

Zone coverage is what I have named the prevent me from winning defense zone doesn't work period.

[MikeCurtis]

Hybrid Zone can be an excellent coverage scheme to combat any offense

 

It may look like zone on the inside, or side, with man to man responsibilty in PARTs of the coverage

 

A zone can be exploited if you have little to no pass rush in a game (Atl)

 

A zone can be exploited by a pin-point accuracy QB (A problem against the best QBs)

 

A zone can be exploited by people not being where they need to be (Our biggest problem)

 

We have some folks on the field that are still learning where they need to be.

 

I believe that we will be better with some more experience

 

I believe that we will be better with some better, more consistent pass rush (we HAVE to get better than this past week)

 

We dont have the horses to run man to man 100% this year, but I BET that you will see us go to it more often.

 

 

 

 

 

[BeanDiasucci]

23 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Zone coverage is what I have named the prevent me from winning defense zone doesn't work period.

I guess that's why the Colts haven't won any games last year or this year.

 

I'm not a huge fan of how much zone the Colts play absent a more effective pass rush, but if you're suggesting that all zone coverages are prevent defenses, that doesn't seem accurate. The philosophy behind the Cover 2 zone, which the Colts play, is to reduce the number of defenders that are needed to stop the deep pass threat, thus leaving more defenders closer to the line of scrimmage. This, in theory, provides quicker run support and helps with the short pass and timing routes. https://www.liveabout.com/understanding-the-cover-2-zone-1335507

[CR91]

It was working in the first half. I just think the colts put their foot on the break and played a more prevent defense.

[PeterBowman]

let's see how things are going around the half way point of the season....there's A LOT of rookies and 2nd year players being thrown to the fire and mistakes will happen. They've also made their fair share of plays too. 

[Goatface Killah]

It's hard to say and it depends on the situation.

 

I think ideally you would be capable of both, so that you can defend who ever you face that particular week.

 

One thing I like about Eberflus is he seems willing to try different things. He doesnt seem married to a single philosophy and is more than willing to play man or zone, and blitz when necessary. My least favorite thing about Dungys Tampa 2 was just the pure unwillingness to recognize when it wasnt working and adjust. I dont think he wanted to fit his scheme to the talent, but make his talent fit the scheme instead. That approach is far too rigid for todays NFL.

 

I also think that's why Malik is so important for us because he allows you to play some different coverages.. That FS spot is essential to allow us the flexibility to be multiple. With him being out it really puts us behind the 8 ball. I'm not sure we have another guy who can play deep single high. Marvell Tell is about the only guy, and we seem to see him as a corner. I wouldn't be against drafting a quality backup to Hooker since he seems to have some durability concerns. Then when hes healthy you can still find some formations where you can make use of another talented FS in some 3 safety packages.

[Superman]

This seems like the new version of the "3-4 vs 4-3" debate. 

 

There are times to play man, and there are times to play zone. To be a good defense, you probably need to do both, but most importantly, you have to execute both effectively. Our defense has made big plays using both concepts, but has also given up big plays using both. It's not either/or.

[stitches]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

This seems like the new version of the "3-4 vs 4-3" debate. 

 

There are times to play man, and there are times to play zone. To be a good defense, you probably need to do both, but most importantly, you have to execute both effectively. Our defense has made big plays using both concepts, but has also given up big plays using both. It's not either/or.

Do you have any idea why we were switching to zone on every 3d and long vs Atlanta? I can't figure out the rationale here. And Atlanta had something like 100% conversion % on those. 

[Jason_]

1 hour ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Zone coverage is what I have named the prevent me from winning defense zone doesn't work period.

 

well this is just utter nonsense.  congrats, you've outdone yourself

[krunk]

I think the D will be fine.   We were having a similar conversation last year after the 1st Jax game and then the D tightened up and Eberflus made the necessary changes to put things in our favor. I expect he'll do that again. 

[Fisticuffs111]

4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Do you have any idea why we were switching to zone on every 3d and long vs Atlanta? I can't figure out the rationale here. And Atlanta had something like 100% conversion % on those. 

My half serious guess is that we were worried about getting beat deep since they were obvious passing situations? I don't know though.

[stitches]

6 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

My half serious guess is that we were worried about getting beat deep since they were obvious passing situations? I don't know though.

This makes sense but I kind of feel like this is why you have Hooker there. He is supposed to be that ballhawk that you leave in the deep field to help the corners and prevent big plays. I guess the moment it started becoming obvious(the 3d and long conversions time after time) was in the 3d quarter when Hooker got injured. Maybe that played a role too. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

52 minutes ago, CR91 said:

It was working in the first half. I just think the colts put their foot on the break and played a more prevent defense.

 

Playing the corners 10 yards of the LOS on 3rd & long will always be a headscratcher to me, & that seemed to be one of the main halftime "adjustments" on Sunday.

[Superman]

48 minutes ago, stitches said:

Do you have any idea why we were switching to zone on every 3d and long vs Atlanta? I can't figure out the rationale here. And Atlanta had something like 100% conversion % on those. 

 

I haven't looked that closely. But it's more bothersome to me that we can't get a stop on third and long, regardless of the coverage. One play that is stuck in my mind, we got no pass rush, and we widened out too far in the second level. Two big problems if you want to get off the field on third down.

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

It's not either/or.

True, and a rangy safety can expand the options. The D will miss Hooker.

[IndyScribe]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

I think the D will be fine.   We were having a similar conversation last year after the 1st Jax game and then the D tightened up and Eberflus made the necessary changes to put things in our favor. I expect he'll do that again. 

Yep, and there are a lot of injuries and rookies playing.

 

[Goatface Killah]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

Do you have any idea why we were switching to zone on every 3d and long vs Atlanta? I can't figure out the rationale here. And Atlanta had something like 100% conversion % on those. 

Well I think it's because that should be the ideal defense for that situation.

 

I think a lot of times people blame the scheme, but really it just wasnt played correctly. I doubt Eberflus teaches them to give up the first so easily.

 

I think it's a combination of guys not playing the scheme correctly and having a few young guys maybe you're afraid to put in man to man situations against really good receivers just yet.

[TrueBlue12]

Not having Hooker and Leonard was certainly a factor. Playing the rookies a lot on D too.

[Coffeedrinker]

All defenses have their holes.  The Colts issue in the 2nd half of the Falcons' game was not that they were playing zone, they were being too predictable.  One play comes to mind that Atlanta ran several times.  it was a counter run, they did it both left and right but mainly to the offensive right.  Falcons would line up and then move the TE from right to left, the defense would shift and it opened up the counter because the LBers would be easy to block because they moved to the spot that gave the tackle an easy angle to block them..  Same thing on the pass D Falcons new if the outside receiver went beyond 12 yards the CB would drop back further and the LBers zone stopped at about 8 yards deep and 5 yards outside the hash, so they would find that spot in the zone in front of the CB but outside the LBers zone.  it was maddening.

 

Flus was so creative last year and this year it looks like he has forgotten how to do anything but call a base D.

[Coffeedrinker]

27 minutes ago, TrueBlue12 said:

Not having Hooker and Leonard was certainly a factor. Playing the rookies a lot on D too.

I would agree with that more, if the same thing didn't happen in the Chargers game.

 

it looked like they improved in the Titans game but now it's looking more like that was a functin of the Titans ineptitude and less because the Colts D improved.

[CR91]

3 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Playing the corners 10 yards of the LOS on 3rd & long will always be a headscratcher to me, & that seemed to be one of the main halftime "adjustments" on Sunday.

 

Again. I think it was just because of the flow of the game. Hopefully that was the case.

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I haven't looked that closely. But it's more bothersome to me that we can't get a stop on third and long, regardless of the coverage. One play that is stuck in my mind, we got no pass rush, and we widened out too far in the second level. Two big problems if you want to get off the field on third down.

Yea Mahomes  is going to have a field day  if we play like we played in the second half versus falcons.

[Imgrandojji]

Zone is what you play when you don't have the talent for man

[VaAllDay757]

Funny thing is when we was getting beat bad on those 3rd downs against the falcons we was playing man coverage same thing against the chargers we're not quite ready for full blown man coverage scheme yet but it's starting with rock ya sin

[krunk]

I still think personnel wise we need to be a bit more athletic back there to deal with all these athletes you face when a high powered offense is involved.  We don't have a Richard Sherman, Brandon Browner and some of those guys the Legion of Boom had.  Clayton Geathers cant cover in the same way Kam Chancellor could so on and so forth.  During the offseason and preseason and judging from how much better we looked at the end of last year I thought we'd be ok, but I'm starting to say now we need to upgrade the level of athleticism we have back there.  I think we are in good shape at LB, we just need to be sharper with the execution and tackling.   Pass rush has been good in every game except against the Falcons. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[Trace Pyott]

I’m probably wrong here but isn’t a 4-3 usually a zone defense?  Is there a difference between a cover 2 and a 4-3?  I’m just asking because I’m wondering if we could stick with the 4/3 and still plAy man. Sorry if this is a newbie question. My defensive knowledge is limited to say the least. 

[Blindside]

Im not sure you want to abandon any element of football if it gives you options and allows the defense to change things up.  What we need and have in Leonard is a team captain on defense that can correctly call out defensive signals.  I can only imagine he will get better..

[AKB]

8 hours ago, stitches said:

This makes sense but I kind of feel like this is why you have Hooker there. He is supposed to be that ballhawk that you leave in the deep field to help the corners and prevent big plays. I guess the moment it started becoming obvious(the 3d and long conversions time after time) was in the 3d quarter when Hooker got injured. Maybe that played a role too. 

Hooker got injured in the third quarter. Remember?

[WoolMagnet]

Its been three weeks, and two of them have been against very good QBs.  We were without our best defensive player for one, and we have rookies and young guys everywhere.  We might wanna give it a lil time.

  Also, this defense makes it a lil easier for these young guys to read and react.

  I also expect some more situational blitzing to be added soon. 

[Moosejawcolt]

People before the season were saying we might b a top 10 defense.  I said let's  pump the brakes.  I used the playoff loss to KC as a measuring stick.  They looked terrible.  I said going into this season we would c how our D would look as we play great qbs.  KC...fail.......Charger...fail and Atlanta....fail.  I will b called negative but I have very little faith in the D and/or the coordinator at this time.  It has not progressed as I thought it would.  I thought we would b more creative.  And yes the most alarming thing is that teams are converting 3rd downs.  I thought that was suppose to b the strength of the is D ?!?!?  In fact it is its weakness. Something needs to change.  Either we just dont have the talent and the coaches are being very cautious or we need a change at coordinator. It's funny but our  offense is so aggressive and innovative.  Something has to give.

[Moosejawcolt]

6 hours ago, TrueBlue12 said:

Not having Hooker and Leonard was certainly a factor. Playing the rookies a lot on D too.

Disagree.

[jameszeigler834]

15 hours ago, BeanDiasucci said:

I guess that's why the Colts haven't won any games last year or this year.

 

I'm not a huge fan of how much zone the Colts play absent a more effective pass rush, but if you're suggesting that all zone coverages are prevent defenses, that doesn't seem accurate. The philosophy behind the Cover 2 zone, which the Colts play, is to reduce the number of defenders that are needed to stop the deep pass threat, thus leaving more defenders closer to the line of scrimmage. This, in theory, provides quicker run support and helps with the short pass and timing routes. https://www.liveabout.com/understanding-the-cover-2-zone-1335507

Its the softest coverage I have seen its terrible and every time they are in this defense against good passing teams the defense sucks and looks rather pathetic.

[CoachLite]

2 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Its the softest coverage I have seen its terrible and every time they are in this defense against good passing teams the defense sucks and looks rather pathetic.

You remember Dungy's dogged adherence to Tampa 2 (Cover 2)? THAT was frustrating. I think some fans confused "potential" with "performance". It's gonna take some time and experience for it to come together - running variations off the base.

[Nickster]

The problem IMO is a lack of pass rush in the 2nd half.  I was a little surprised because they looked good 1st 2 weeks. 

 

Without a rush, it doesn’t matter what coverage you play.

[SteelCityColt]

8 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

People before the season were saying we might b a top 10 defense.  I said let's  pump the brakes.  I used the playoff loss to KC as a measuring stick.  They looked terrible.  I said going into this season we would c how our D would look as we play great qbs.  KC...fail.......Charger...fail and Atlanta....fail.  I will b called negative but I have very little faith in the D and/or the coordinator at this time.  It has not progressed as I thought it would.  I thought we would b more creative.  And yes the most alarming thing is that teams are converting 3rd downs.  I thought that was suppose to b the strength of the is D ?!?!?  In fact it is its weakness. Something needs to change.  Either we just dont have the talent and the coaches are being very cautious or we need a change at coordinator. It's funny but our  offense is so aggressive and innovative.  Something has to give.

 

To be fair it’s a fair expectation when they were a top 10 d last year in many metrics, with more talent added this year.