the Ebron call

[ColtsBlueFL]

51 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Then the rule change doesn't matter apparently. They made the rule change because of this very reason regarding the Ebron play and what happened to Dez so it would never happen again. So I guess they will continue to just rob players out of a TD. SMH

 

Yes it does , for the Dez play.  Watch this, especially at 2:54 and forward in slo-mo.  Dez gets at least 2 feet down after control (maybe all 3, IMO).  To me, the third step was 'time', that football move if full control was established.  But even if they feel the defenders hand in there interrupted control before the first foot landing, there was still 2 other feet down, after control was established.  So we have control, 2 feet.  now we need 'time', or an act common to the game.  Dez extends the ball out toward the goal line.  That satisfies the final part, the  "performs any act common to the game" and/or the (just enough) time element.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1khK6is-Bfs

 

Back then, he did not 'survive the ground' by maintaining control all the way through the entire process, thus incomplete.  Now days, that is a catch. Ball is placed just short of the goal and down by contact.

 

By the same token, the Calvin Johnson play/no catch is now also a catch as well.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81a77070/Week-1-2010-Calvin-Johnson-s-miraculous-TD-catch-called-back

 

Control, 2 feet, football act/time.

 

Both of these happened within bounds.  Ebron's did not stay in bounds.

[Crunked]

I dont know if he (EBRON) had a foot elbow or pinky finger down or not before bobbling.  For me I get the "spirit" of this rule, but I just have a problem with the rule in general. Was he bobbling it? Yes, but for me I would like to see the rule consider, did he ultimately lose control? AKA did the ball touch the ground at any point? If no, that would mean "he has possession" albeit dicey possession, but if it doesn't come out of your hands/touch the ground then you have possession....dont know how that would be implemented or  what have you....but I just remember watching the replays thinking come on, yes he bobbled it but he never lost it.....so doesnt that imply possession if you have something and never lose it? I dunno, I just think the rule needs some tweakage....

[ColtsBlueFL]

11 hours ago, Dogg63 said:

I've never felt clear on this rule. If a receiver catches the ball near the sideline, drags both feet inbounds, then falls out of bounds and bobbles the ball the moment he crashes into the ground, is that a catch or not?

 

The first 2 parts, Catch/Control (a), Two feet (b) you've defined.  Now, did he have it long enough before losing control will always be the question.  That's the issue.

 

The NFL keeps tweaking the wording.  It was, up until recently, an incomplete pass.  That whole maintain control throughout the process thing.  Fans were often confused (still are!).  So they decided to remove maintain control throughout the whole process type mumbo jumbo and reinstate the-

 

(c) performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

Fans call this 'football move'.  Officials and Competition Committee call the 'element of time'.

 

So whether your example is a catch or not goes back to did the player maintain control (before the bobble) just long enough (in time) a 'football move could have been started', even if one wasn't actually performed. In the notes section of the catch rule is this exact scenario:

 

2. A player, who satisfied (a) and (b), but has not satisfied (c), contacts the ground and loses control of the ball, it is an incomplete pass if the ball hits the ground before he regains control, or if he regains control out of bounds.

 

This is evidently what the refs felt happened to Ebron, and possibly your hypothetical play. So, unfortunately, there is still room for subjectivity in judgement of ''time' component, as well as control.  It is Al Riveron's job to train the officials for consistency here.  If the play gets reviewed, we might get a better feel for how Riveron/NFL want to have the call(s) go.

 

But the rule wording was re-adjusted slightly to get those plays (like the Megatron and Dez Bryant catches) back to being a catch to both the casual fan and on the field.

 

Broken down, the new catch rule is-

 

Control,  Two feet, Time.  All three, in that order.

[ColtsBlueFL]

26 minutes ago, Crunked said:

I dont know if he (EBRON) had a foot elbow or pinky finger down or not before bobbling.  For me I get the "spirit" of this rule, but I just have a problem with the rule in general.

 

Exactly, this (you bring up below) is where subjectivity in the rule still exists.

 

Quote

Was he bobbling it? Yes, but for me I would like to see the rule consider, did he ultimately lose control?

 

Believe it or not, as a note to the catch rule is this-

 

Movement of the ball does not automatically result in loss of control.

 

Quote

AKA did the ball touch the ground at any point? If no, that would mean "he has possession" albeit dicey possession, but if it doesn't come out of your hands/touch the ground then you have possession....

 

It's a judgement call by the ref if any ball movement was large enough to constitute loss of control.  Replays would have to be very clear (either way) for Al Riveron to reverse a challenge.

 

Quote

dont know how that would be implemented or  what have you....but I just remember watching the replays thinking come on, yes he bobbled it but he never lost it.....so doesnt that imply possession if you have something and never lose it? I dunno, I just think the rule needs some tweakage....

 

It was addressed, but some things the subjectivity just can't be tweaked out. Try as they might.

[Cynjin]

57 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

The first 2 parts, Catch/Control (a), Two feet (b) you've defined.  Now, did he have it long enough before losing control will always be the question.  That's the issue.

 

The NFL keeps tweaking the wording.  It was, up until recently, an incomplete pass.  That whole maintain control throughout the process thing.  Fans were often confused (still are!).  So they decided to remove maintain control throughout the whole process type mumbo jumbo and reinstate the-

 

(c) performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

Fans call this 'football move'.  Officials and Competition Committee call the 'element of time'.

 

So whether your example is a catch or not goes back to did the player maintain control (before the bobble) just long enough (in time) a 'football move could have been started', even if one wasn't actually performed. In the notes section of the catch rule is this exact scenario:

 

2. A player, who satisfied (a) and (b), but has not satisfied (c), contacts the ground and loses control of the ball, it is an incomplete pass if the ball hits the ground before he regains control, or if he regains control out of bounds.

 

This is evidently what the refs felt happened to Ebron, and possibly your hypothetical play. So, unfortunately, there is still room for subjectivity in judgement of ''time' component, as well as control.  It is Al Riveron's job to train the officials for consistency here.  If the play gets reviewed, we might get a better feel for how Riveron/NFL want to have the call(s) go.

 

But the rule wording was re-adjusted slightly to get those plays (like the Megatron and Dez Bryant catches) back to being a catch to both the casual fan and on the field.

 

Broken down, the new catch rule is-

 

Control,  Two feet, Time.  All three, in that order.

 

Can you explain the call on Autry?  To me that was a worse judgement call, defensive players try to shoot the gap between the long snapper and the guards all the time.  After looking at the replay a couple of times vs other filed goal attempts, I don't see a lot of difference.

[CoachLite]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

(c) performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

Fans call this 'football move'.  Officials and Competition Committee call the 'element of time'.

Notice the word "or" is not "and". This means time does not enter into the decision if a "common act" (football move) is exhibited. It only applies when there is no common act preceding it.

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, Cynjin said:

 

Can you explain the call on Autry?  To me that was a worse judgement call, defensive players try to shoot the gap between the long snapper and the guards all the time.  After looking at the replay a couple of times vs other filed goal attempts, I don't see a lot of difference.

 

I haven't watched game pass yet. But I assume it is the penalty that turned a Bolts made FG into a TD after yardage enforcement and new set of downs. I'm not sure where he lined up and how,where, when he made contact.

 

The NFL has been making it a point of emphasis since beginning of last year to protect long snappers. You can't line up over them and any Opponent that makes contact with the head or neck of a long snapper will be penalized 15 yards.

 

“While there is no rule change, the Officiating Department will emphasize in 2018 that fouls are will be called when defenders initiate contact to the head or neck area of the snapper,” the league’s Football Operations website says. (on punts/FG's)

 

You also cannot push a teammate through the pile, and all jumping/leaping over the center has been eliminated (made penalties). Even if lined over them and no contact is made, it is stll a 5 yard penalty.

 

Article  3:  During  a  punt,  a  field-goal  attempt,  or  a  Try  Kick,  a  Team  B  player,  who  is  within  one  yard  of  the  line  of  scrimmage at the snap, must have his entire body outside the snapper’s shoulder pads. Note: This restriction does not apply if a team does not present an apparent punt, field goal, or Try Kick formation, or if, after the offensive team has assumed a set position, there is a shift, or a player goes in motion.

Penalty: For illegal formation by the defense: Loss of five yards from the previous spot.

 

I remember the game a few years ago where a Patriot player was lined up off the ball, but over the center.  An official was nice, tapped him and he moved off the pads of the Center, preventing getting a 5 yard penalty.  The Pats D line shifted, but was still outside the Centers pads. Here's a video-

 

 

This was 2014, 4 years before point of emphasis on contact with center head and neck (as you can see) too.  NFL also sent a message it is common for refs to remind players of potential penalties before there is a snap. Standard procedure. But these days, that just might be 15 yard penalty, even if they avoided the 5 yarder.

 

[Cynjin]

8 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I haven't watched game pass yet. But I assume it is the penalty that turned a Bolts made FG into a TD after yardage enforcement and new set of downs. I'm not sure where he lined up and how,where, when he made contact.

 

The NFL has been making it a point of emphasis since beginning of last year to protect long snappers. You can't line up over them and any Opponent that makes contact with the head or neck of a long snapper will be penalized 15 yards.

 

“While there is no rule change, the Officiating Department will emphasize in 2018 that fouls are will be called when defenders initiate contact to the head or neck area of the snapper,” the league’s Football Operations website says. (on punts/FG's)

 

You also cannot push a teammate through the pile, and all jumping/leaping over the center has been eliminated (made penalties). Even if lined over them and no contact is made, it is stll a 5 yard penalty.

 

Article  3:  During  a  punt,  a  field-goal  attempt,  or  a  Try  Kick,  a  Team  B  player,  who  is  within  one  yard  of  the  line  of  scrimmage at the snap, must have his entire body outside the snapper’s shoulder pads. Note: This restriction does not apply if a team does not present an apparent punt, field goal, or Try Kick formation, or if, after the offensive team has assumed a set position, there is a shift, or a player goes in motion.

Penalty: For illegal formation by the defense: Loss of five yards from the previous spot.

 

I remember the game a few years ago where a Patriot player was lined up off the ball, but over the center.  An official was nice, tapped him and he moved off the pads of the Center, preventing getting a 5 yard penalty.  The Pats D line shifted, but was still outside the Centers pads. Here's a video-

 

 

This was 2014, 4 years before point of emphasis on contact with center head and neck (as you can see) too.  NFL also sent a message it is common for refs to remind players of potential penalties before there is a snap. Standard procedure. But these days, that just might be 15 yard penalty, even if they avoided the 5 yarder.

 

 

Thanks for the reply, however I heard that the NFL admitted today the call on Autry was an incorrect call.  

[ColtsBlueFL]

45 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

Thanks for the reply, however I heard that the NFL admitted today the call on Autry was an incorrect call.  

 

Nice, so it must because he didn't really violate the above? 

 

I still haven't seen the game on video (but I do have game pas, so will look when I get a chance). Just stating why they might call something. Remember, in the interest of safety, the refs are instructed to throw the flag if unsure of an infraction..  The League will apologize later, if necessary. If what you report is true, that appears what may have happened.

 

Possibly the league feels he was blocked into center?

 

I'll look for clarification over the next few days. Bummer for the Colts. Typical home (reffing) cooking bias here?

[hoosierhawk]

On 9/8/2019 at 9:10 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The NFL changed the rule before the season. Do some research before posting it wasn't a catch in the endzone. If 2 feet are down or only 1 foot is down but another body part hits the endzone before bobbling the ball than it is a TD. Ebron had 1 foot down and his elbow hit the ground before he barely bobbled it. It was a TD and not even debatable. Like I said do some research, Dez Bryant and Calvin Johnson's catches would be considered a TD now. I am not sure the REFS know the new rule? We actually got screwed all day by the REFS, they got away with holding on numerous occasions. This loss makes me sick! Moving forward it looks like we have a good team if we can stay healthy. I am not sure Mack can be a work horse like he was today every week.

Wrong! give it up. He bobbled it till his body was out of the end zone,

[2006Coltsbestever]

37 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Wrong! give it up. He bobbled it till his body was out of the end zone,

I am already right about the Autry penalty when some in here was saying it was a penalty. I was saying it wasn't. I am just waiting for the NFL to admit their mistake here as well. Ebron had both feet down and his elbow touched, ball was tucked to his chest before he bobbled the ball. It was a catch. Look at the replay. 

[holeymoley99]

You are correct both feet down and elbow touched BEFORE the bobble, just rewatched it again. It was a t.d

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, holeymoley99 said:

You are correct both feet down and elbow touched BEFORE the bobble, just rewatched it again. It was a t.d

I agree, how some people do not see that puzzles me. He had possession when he hit the ground, then the ball came loose after words. Had he been bobbling it before his feet touched and elbow touched then it would be incomplete. I hate whining about the REFS but I call them out when they are wrong. Just like the Autry penalty. The NFL said they got that wrong. 

[hoosierhawk]

9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am already right about the Autry penalty when some in here was saying it was a penalty. I was saying it wasn't. I am just waiting for the NFL to admit their mistake here as well. Ebron had both feet down and his elbow touched, ball was tucked to his chest before he bobbled the ball. It was a catch. Look at the replay. 

He never had complete control.

[hoosierhawk]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree, how some people do not see that puzzles me. He had possession when he hit the ground, then the ball came loose after words. Had he been bobbling it before his feet touched and elbow touched then it would be incomplete. I hate whining about the REFS but I call them out when they are wrong. Just like the Autry penalty. The NFL said they got that wrong. 

Sorry but never heard you make a big deal about the Autry call. I tend to agree that it way very questionable at best.

[holeymoley99]

Eventually it will all be automated so we will be complaining about computers instead of refs. Actually moving that way quickly in some sports.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, hoosierhawk said:

Sorry but never heard you make a big deal about the Autry czll. I tend to agree that it way very questionable at best.

I made a huge deal about it on the Game day Thread after it happened. I thought the penalty was bogus and even posted that. I also posted I have never seen a penalty like that in watching football for 40 years. Some posters were telling me that it was a penalty and was all over Autry, calling him a bonehead. Regarding Ebron, we will have to agree to disagree. Ebron had possession and both feet and an elbow were down, ball tucked to chest before he bobbled it. He didn't bobble the ball until after he hit the ground.

[ColtsBlueFL]

23 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Regarding Ebron, we will have to agree to disagree. Ebron had possession

 

OK...

 

Quote

and both feet and an elbow were down, ball tucked to chest before he bobbled it.

 

Did he tuck it before his 2 feet hit the ground, or after?   It's important distinction. You tell me.

 

Quote

He didn't bobble the ball until after he hit the ground.

 

What was his football move? When did it occur? 

 

Here's the rule-

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/

 

Here's the layman breakdown-

 

****************************************88

In an effort to change the catch rule to fix these issues, NFL senior vice president of officiating Al Riveron revealed the new guidelines for a catch. The new rule was approved by owners on Tuesday by a 32-0 vote.

 

1. Control

 

2. Two feet down or another body part

 

3. Then, a football move such as: a third step, reaching or extending for the line-to-gain, or the ability to perform such an act.

 

{has to be in that order, no swaperoos...}

 

'Oh look, a simplified rule that we all understand and can be easily enforced. The first two points are the same as usual, but it’s the third bullet point that has changed. It seems the NFL is finally going to acknowledge that a football move can exist within the catch rule.

So Bryant caught the ball, so did James, Johnson, and Emanuel.'

*****************************

 

If Ebron never went out of the back of the end zone, this would not an issue.  It would be a TD. But he did. Before the bobbling/ball movement was stopped.  At least to me. But I'm not sure it moved enough to be considered 'loss of control'. That's my issue with the call.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

OK...

 

 

Did he tuck it before his 2 feet hit the ground, or after?   It's important distinction. You tell me.

 

 

What was his football move? When did it occur? 

 

Here's the rule-

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/

 

Here's the layman breakdown-

 

****************************************88

In an effort to change the catch rule to fix these issues, NFL senior vice president of officiating Al Riveron revealed the new guidelines for a catch. The new rule was approved by owners on Tuesday by a 32-0 vote.

 

1. Control

 

2. Two feet down or another body part

 

3. Then, a football move such as: a third step, reaching or extending for the line-to-gain, or the ability to perform such an act.

 

{has to be in that order, no swaperoos...}

 

'Oh look, a simplified rule that we all understand and can be easily enforced. The first two points are the same as usual, but it’s the third bullet point that has changed. It seems the NFL is finally going to acknowledge that a football move can exist within the catch rule.

So Bryant caught the ball, so did James, Johnson, and Emanuel.'

*****************************

 

If Ebron never went out of the back of the end zone, this would not an issue.  It would be a TD. But he did. Before the bobbling/ball movement was stopped.  At least to me. But I'm not sure it moved enough to be considered 'loss of control'. That's my issue with the call.

That is fair enough but after reading the rule changes and seeing Ebron's play in slow mo, that should be considered a catch. He hit the ground and slid, maybe they called it incomplete because he ended up out of bounds but still I thought he had possession before bobbling it and doing that. His football move could be considered him diving/catching the ball causing him to move forward because he had the ball while in the air.

[hoosierhawk]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is fair enough but after reading the rule changes and seeing Ebron's play in slow mo, that should be considered a catch. He hit the ground and slid, maybe they called it incomplete because he ended up out of bounds but still I thought he had possession before bobbling it and doing that. His football move could be considered him diving/catching the ball causing him to move forward because he had the ball while in the air.

Nobody is any bigger Colt fan than I am but to me it was an incomplete pass. He should have made an easy catch but he didn't. Doyle had a possible TD go right thru his hands and hit him in the face. Very hard throw but they get paid to make these catches and both didn't do it.

Put the blame where it belongs.

[NewColtsFan]

 

For what it's worth.....     the three game announcers all agreed the call was correct.

 

The play by play guy,  the analyst,  former QB,  Trent Green,   and the CBS former NFL official who came in and judged the calll as correct.

 

Three for three against us.      I'd say the call was likely judged correctly.

 

Time to get over this and move on.....

 

[aaron11]

i hate this part of the rule.  to me if you grab the ball and come up with it never hitting the ground that should be a catch

[ColtsBlueFL]

16 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is fair enough but after reading the rule changes and seeing Ebron's play in slow mo, that should be considered a catch. He hit the ground and slid, maybe they called it incomplete because he ended up out of bounds but still I thought he had possession before bobbling it and doing that. His football move could be considered him diving/catching the ball causing him to move forward because he had the ball while in the air.

 

I just heard Dean Blandino on the Ebron play.  He feels it was incomplete as well.  He emphasized the rule change does not prohibit the fact the ground can still cause an incompletion.  After a receiver hits the ground, if the ball pops loose and it hits the ground, or even if full control is regained before it hits the ground but was after the player goes out of bounds, it is incomplete.

 

He also addressed my complaint the way I mentioned he might.  He felt there was not enough evidence Ebron maintained firm continuous control as he slid out of bounds to overturn the call.

[jameszeigler834]

On 9/8/2019 at 10:30 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It was a catch by the new rule, obvious to me but not to some others, obvious to you too 

I got a good look at that last night that call of no TD was bullcrap.