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1 minute ago, chad72 said:

Josh Rosen is average, based on everything I have seen of him so far. If you think he is an upgrade over what we have or because of his draft status, we could be sadly mistaken. It wasn't just Kyler Murray that made him expendable, it is Josh Rosen's QB level of play that made him expendable and that also did not let him beat out Ryan Fitzpatrick with the Dolphins. 

 

Rosen needs time to develop and the new Coach wanted Murray for his offense. I don’t think the Cardinals did Rosen any favors with that O-line last year as a rookie. 

 

Now he has to learn a new offense with Miami, so he’s had some setbacks in his development. Does this translate that Rosen will eventually be a above average starter???? Absolutely not, but he’s not been in a position to fully succeed yet. 

 

I don’t believe his situation was that after one season the Cardinals determined they made a mistake drafting Rosen and  he’s a bust. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Phins aren't going to trade Rosen.

 

Colts need to roll with JB. If he can't put up Ws, see what you have in Kelly.

 

While I want to win, Ballard and Reich get a pass this year. It should be all about seeing if JB is truly the guy, and if not, finding out if Kelly is the real deal. If neither have the right stuff, make a move post season via draft or FA. 

Ballard and Reich absolutely do not get a pass this year. Ballard has said repeatedly it's not about one guy, we are building a team. It's also been mentioned that one of the things about Reich that stood out in his job interview was that he never once asked about Luck's health.

 

In the NFL you're graded on wins and losses. This team won last year. It is built to win now and into the foreseeable future. There are no passes.

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Without reading through all the posts I might point out that Rosen couldn't beat out Ryan Fitzpatrick.  

 

He seems to be a bust plain and simple.  I would not want to give up a 2nd on him.  

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15 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I’ve stood by NFL teams don’t tank.  People get fired if you were to tank.  Same with players they get replaced and lose their jobs.  That’s why I don’t buy into tanking in the NFL.  Sometimes a team like the 2011 Colts earns the top pick because they just aren’t very good.  That’s the only point I was trying to make, not so much talk about this Colts team specifically.

I think teams tank all the time.   I don't think players do.   I do think head coaches, GM's and owners talk among themselves and tank.  Not all season.   But if your 5-9 and your draft position could end up anywhere from #1 to #10 depending on the last 2 games, you may hold out good players who have small injuries.   Stuff like that.   Not trying to win is the same as tanking.    

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5 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Without reading through all the posts I might point out that Rosen couldn't beat out Ryan Fitzpatrick.  

 

He seems to be a bust plain and simple.  I would not want to give up a 2nd on him.  

No way to deem him a bust.   It was an awful situation in Arizona.   1.5 years ago, many "experts" had him as the #1 QB in the draft.  

 

That said, I don't agree that Indy should bring him in.   They already have 2 QB's who could be as good as Rosen.  Brissett is going to get the full chance.   The defense is good, the O-line is great and the offensive weapons are deep.   If he doesn't lead the team to 10+ wins and throw for something like 30 TD's and 10 INT's, I don't think we should bring him back.   

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Rosen is talented, sure, and he has been dealt the short stick throughout his career, but I'd much rather keep the 2nd, roll with Brissett, and if he doesn't pan out grab a QB next year or the following than get Rosen, hope he turns it around, and if not still grab another QB, albiet while losing a 2nd rounder in the process. If Rosen can win here, so can Brissett. If Brissett can't, I doubt Rosen would be able to either.

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The point of this thread was to exercise a thought experiment, and probably a bad one in hindsight lol, but whatever. 

 

I don't think you can really write Rosen off as a bust given the situations he's landed in. That system last year made David Johnson look like Robert Turbin, and we all know DJ is capable of extraordinary things. Who really knows what Rosen is? I know that a quarterback with that base talent level, inside this system, with these weapons, would be fun to see progress. The likelihood? Extremely low. The intrigue? Extremely high. 

 

As far as Brissett, the same people that are saying he could potentially be the future of the franchise are the same ones saying we're F'ed without Luck. It's a fairly binary situation in my eyes, he's either good enough to get us back into SB contention or he isn't. No point in being middle class. I'm of the opinion that he's an ordinary QB, capable of ordinary results. I'd like to have another QB at the helm, however unlikely that may be at present. If Jacoby Brissett were an all-world option, capable of leading a team to glory...he wouldn't be a backup. And please don't hit me with the Kurt Warner stories, bcuz for every one of those there's 1000's of UDFA (or low draft cap) guys that end up getting day jobs because they can't hack it. Brissett was a 3rd rounder, and most of your rockstar NFL QBs come from the beginning of the first round, that's just the statistical certainty of it. 

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2 hours ago, coltsva said:

Ballard and Reich absolutely do not get a pass this year. Ballard has said repeatedly it's not about one guy, we are building a team. It's also been mentioned that one of the things about Reich that stood out in his job interview was that he never once asked about Luck's health.

 

In the NFL you're graded on wins and losses. This team won last year. It is built to win now and into the foreseeable future. There are no passes.

 

Those are all nice words. They are the typical cliche narratives we hear over and over again like "next man up", "it's about team not one guy", etc.. The reality is, just like any business, the owners/boards take into account cataclysmic events and impacts when grading performance. And a generational talent and face of the franchise retiring early and unexpectedly certainly is cataclysmic for the organization. 

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8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Those are all nice words. They are the typical cliche narratives we hear over and over again like "next man up", "it's about team not one guy", etc.. The reality is, just like any business, the owners/boards take into account cataclysmic events and impacts when grading performance. And a generational talent and face of the franchise retiring early and unexpectedly certainly is cataclysmic for the organization. 

Those are not my cliches or words, they are Ballard’s and Reich’s. If they don’t want to be judged based on their own words then they shouldn’t say them. I think that’s fair and I think they would agree. Irsay and his daughters can judge them any way they want.

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1 hour ago, coltsva said:

Those are not my cliches or words, they are Ballard’s and Reich’s. If they don’t want to be judged based on their own words then they shouldn’t say them. I think that’s fair and I think they would agree. Irsay and his daughters can judge them any way they want.

 

They are textbook cliches (see the def of cliche). The only question is how much does Ballard and Reich believe what they are saying. If they truly believe it, then great! But they are phrases we hear from every coach/GM.

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

They are textbook cliches (see the def of cliche). The only question is how much does Ballard and Reich believe what they are saying. If they truly believe it, then great! But they are phrases we hear from every coach/GM.

IMO, they believe it. Reich has seen it first hand and Ballard is about to see it! 

 

:goodluck:

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1 minute ago, coltsva said:

IMO, they believe it. Reich has seen it first hand and Ballard is about to see it! 

 

:goodluck:

 

I hope they believe it, and I hope they are right. But hope is not a strategy :-)

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I hope they believe it, and I hope they are right. But hope is not a strategy :-)

How cliche of you.

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16 minutes ago, coltsva said:

How cliche of you.

 

glad you caught it lol

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I think the best case scenario moving forward is to continue to develop the talent that we have but also lose as many games as possible to draft Herbert. I would pass on Rosen for obvious reasons. 

 

I consider Herbert to be a blue chip prospect. He has a quick release, super athletic, great size, and has a high IQ. Out of all the QB prospects to enter the draft in the last few years Herbert reminds me of Marino the most. He played baseball and basketball as well just like Marino and Mahommes. Great hand eye coordination. Herbert is the real deal and we have to do everything we can to draft him.

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Rosen would be  a significant downgrade over the qbs we already have on the roster. Use the eye test, he is very bad. Yea it's not fair he got jerked around by the Cardinals, but, then again, life isn't fair. I would take Chad Kelly over Rosen any day.

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19 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Those are all nice words. They are the typical cliche narratives we hear over and over again like "next man up", "it's about team not one guy", etc.. The reality is, just like any business, the owners/boards take into account cataclysmic events and impacts when grading performance. And a generational talent and face of the franchise retiring early and unexpectedly certainly is cataclysmic for the organization. 

Keep chopping wood, stick with the process, iron sharpens iron … all the same. Just words - platitudes. Just saying them is an example of their weakness.

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4 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Keep chopping wood, stick with the process, iron sharpens iron … all the same. Just words - platitudes. Just saying them is an example of their weakness.

As General Custer said, in the Normandy campaign, "I shall return!"

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On 8/29/2019 at 7:40 PM, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

 

Guys that are much more adept at evaluating quarterbacks than myself, I guess. They had him as a 1st round guy, and Brissett as a 3rd. There are intangibles I'd imagine they look at, but no I couldn't break out it down for you like they could. My thing was, give Rosen a shot, if he fails then go in another direction. Rosen hasn't ever played with the talent or coaching that currently resides in Indy. 

 

Why could Andrew Luck lift that team to playoff contention but Jacoby won 4 games? Luck is the guy to get you that SB title, Jacoby is not. That's why. Go big or go home, and no it's not a bad analogy to comp Jacoby to Dalton, whether you "co-sign" or not. Both guys are average, that's just the way it is. 

 

Draft grades dont really mean anything. As mentioned before, Brady was a 6th round pick. Russell Wilson was also a 3rd round pick, and that turned out pretty okay for Seattle. 

 

As for Luck vs Jacoby, the dude came into Indy like... 3 days before the season started. He was attempting to develop chemistry with receivers on the fly, and there weren't many games that we were completely out of that year. Indy knows what they have in JB. Rosen would be an unknown, and so close to the season start it would be difficult for him to acclimate to the team. 

 

Opinions are like, well... you know. But I am in the camp that sticking with JB and keeping our picks for next year. You dont need an Elite QB to win titles, having an elite defense can get you there as well. 

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23 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't know what Josh Rosen is. He had a terrible situation in Arizona, and Ryan Fitzpatrick has been outplaying young QBs for eight years now. I'm open minded on what he'll be, but I disagree with the notion that he's a surefire upgrade over anyone we already have.

As much as I'm a bit of a Chad Kelly skeptic, I wouldn't swap out Kelly for Rosen either.  At this point Josh Rosen is damaged goods and would be a multi year project.  We already have a guy like that and his body hasn't taken 50+ sacks worth of beating to get there.

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On 8/29/2019 at 6:00 PM, Superman said:

 

Ehh, I understand frustration, but I don't co-sign recklessness. I don't think Rosen's book has been written, he was in a terrible situation last year, but I wouldn't just throw him out there with no preparation. That's how you ruin a young QB.

 

And what's really reckless is trading away a significant draft asset to put a young QB in a bad situation, when the team should have their eye on doing everything they can to be in position to draft a new QB if they need to. 

 

So I think the team's best option now is Brissett, and I think their best chances of drafting a franchise level guy involve keeping that WAS #2 in 2020.

 

Also, the comparison to Dalton doesn't work for me. Brissett hasn't had anywhere near the kind of opportunity that Dalton had early in his career. The last time Brissett started, it was for a bad coaching staff, with a team he didn't know. If he's bad this year, I'm fine with moving on. But I think he should be giving a chance before you assume he represents 'reveling in mediocrity.'

 

Lastly, Ballard's operation is not going to embrace mediocrity, at any level. Luck or not.

Well said.

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Ballards last 2 drafts have been heavy with olinemen and defense. It's how you build a winner, Polian somehow forgot that and Grigson never knew. Even though Grigsons last draft here he took 4 olineman(only Clark shouldn't have been drafted) .

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The Dolphins gave up a second, and a fifth rounder for Rosen. Why would they trade him to the Colts for just a second rounder?

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