Playing with House Money

[indyagent17]

It now seems to me that our team is in a unique position.

 

This is pretty much a season where each games will be magnified. In the light of #12's departure no one expects any real noise from us but each game will be a microcosm of what could have been or a healing process. if Brissett can channel Trent Dilfer this could be a fun season.

 

A lot of players on this team are disappointed at the potential and it could show if things get bad but if we win contested games and make everyone respect Brissett then it will be a happier season.  I would love to move on sooner than later but what happens happens 

 

 

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

if Brissett can channel Trent Dilfer this could be a fun season.

 

I would just like to point out that the 2000 Ravens were no worse than the third best defensive team of all time. We'll need more than Trent Dilfer to have a good season.

[indyagent17]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I would just like to point out that the 2000 Ravens were no worse than the third best defensive team of all time. We'll need more than Trent Dilfer to have a good season.

No kidding but you know what I meant by that just don't make mistakes. I said a fun season not a good season

On the record I'm still really ticked off and most of you know my opinion on this I'm just saying the Colts are playing with house money right now because no matter what happens we almost get a pass

[WoolMagnet]

Tell Irsay that.

[Superman]

Just now, indyagent17 said:

No kidding but you know what I meant by that just don't make mistakes

 

I didn't mean to be pedantic.

 

But I also think we need more out of the QB than just an avoidance of mistakes. I think Luck was one of the best playmakers in the league, and in general, I think that playmaking ability is critical to playoff teams.

 

Tom Brady is a great example of QB who avoids mistakes, but even in games where the defense is dominant, he is called on to make a couple of plays down the stretch. He made big plays in his first SB, on that final drive. In this last SB, he had an early turnover, then vowed to his teammates he wouldn't make any more mistakes. But the game came down to the offense being able to score down the stretch, and he had to make some big plays. Meanwhile, Goff was completely incapable of doing anything to help his team.

 

I think Brissett has to rely heavily on his teammates to be successful, but I also think even the best overall team needs a couple of plays a game from the QB. And I thought that playmaking was lacking from Brissett in 2017. Hopefully Reich's coaching can help him be more efficient and productive, and to keep the offense moving.

[MB-ColtsFan]

29 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

It now seems to me that our team is in a unique position.

 

This is pretty much a season where each games will be magnified. In the light of #12's departure no one expects any real noise from us but each game will be a microcosm of what could have been or a healing process. if Brissett can channel Trent Dilfer this could be a fun season.

 

A lot of players on this team are disappointed at the potential and it could show if things get bad but if we win contested games and make everyone respect Brissett then it will be a happier season.  I would love to move on sooner than later but what happens happens 

 

 

I don't read a lot outside this forum so I'm not aware of that.  Got a link to what they say?

[Sumo63]

I've heard a couple national media personalities who still expect the Colts to compete for/win the division.  I'm not sure it's all doom and gloom out there.  I think the colts were probably a little overrated, given the youth of the team, before Luck's announcement.  And are probably being slightly underrated after Lucks retiring.  A conservative 10-6 probably became an optimistic 7-9 type of year......I'm still crushed 12 is not playing but is more of a personal devastation.  I'm not sure internally (after the initial shock) that they feel like the sky fell.  After the season starts. I think we all (colts, league, media, and fans) will be able to turn the page.  I definitely feel my excitement coming back but my disappointment has not diminished at all.....

[Stephen]

16 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I didn't mean to be pedantic.

 

But I also think we need more out of the QB than just an avoidance of mistakes. I think Luck was one of the best playmakers in the league, and in general, I think that playmaking ability is critical to playoff teams.

 

Tom Brady is a great example of QB who avoids mistakes, but even in games where the defense is dominant, he is called on to make a couple of plays down the stretch. He made big plays in his first SB, on that final drive. In this last SB, he had an early turnover, then vowed to his teammates he wouldn't make any more mistakes. But the game came down to the offense being able to score down the stretch, and he had to make some big plays. Meanwhile, Goff was completely incapable of doing anything to help his team.

 

I think Brissett has to rely heavily on his teammates to be successful, but I also think even the best overall team needs a couple of plays a game from the QB. And I thought that playmaking was lacking from Brissett in 2017. Hopefully Reich's coaching can help him be more efficient and productive, and to keep the offense moving.

That was more pagano than Brissett.  We lost few game with Luck under center because  of Pagano  playing  not to lose or being conservative  for one half

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

I've heard a couple national media personalities who still expect the Colts to compete for/win the division.  I'm not sure it's all doom and gloom out there.  I think the colts were probably a little overrated, given the youth of the team, before Luck's announcement.  And are probably being slightly underrated after Lucks retiring.  A conservative 10-6 probably became an optimistic 7-9 type of year......I'm still crushed 12 is not playing but is more of a personal devastation.  I'm not sure internally (after the initial shock) that they feel like the sky fell.  After the season starts. I think we all (colts, league, media, and fans) will be able to turn the page.  I definitely feel my excitement coming back but my disappointment has not diminished at all.....

FWIW, Cris Carter and Nick Wright still pick us to win the division at 9-7. They both think Ballard has built a good team around whoever plays QB and say they think Jacoby isn't just some scrub. Both said the other teams in the division have all kinds of weaknesses is why they like the Colts. Nick pointed out our O.Line and Defense has being strong.

[Sumo63]

Definitely dont think it's out of the question Coltsbest.  If they overactive fans get a good ride and can feel positive about what they're building.  If they underactive. Their draft position is better.  Depending on a person's ability to accept disappointments and possibly swallow a lost season you might say the Colts are in a "no lose situation".  The worst thing they can be is mediocre,  at this point that's what I fear the most......For the record I dont "believe" in tanking......

[Superman]

18 minutes ago, Stephen said:

That was more pagano than Brissett.  We lost few game with Luck under center because  of Pagano  playing  not to lose or being conservative  for one half

 

Nah, I'm talking about Brissett's QBing. Missing throws, missing open receivers, holding the ball too long, being too slow to get out of the pocket, etc. He showed some serious limitations as a QB, and people kind of gloss over them because the team was bad and the coaching was bad, but I'm talking about his actual ability as a player.

 

I think Reich will help with efficiency and production, but playmaking is a trait, not a learned behavior. Brissett has some playmaking, I don't know if he has enough to succeed as an NFL QB, especially not for a championship team.

 

And again, I'd love to be wrong. I'm a big fan of Brissett's character, personality and leadership. I'm all about seeing him do well. 

[presto123]

I'm not rooting against Brissett either, but the fact that we ARE playing with house money now makes me want to see what all the buzz is with Kelly. Most people think he has more physical tools than Brissett. Brissett needs to be given a fair shot though. I have no doubt he will, but I'm dying to know how Kelly would perform in real games against 1st stringers. I have my doubts about Brissett based on what I have seen in the past.

[indyagent17]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I didn't mean to be pedantic.

 

But I also think we need more out of the QB than just an avoidance of mistakes. I think Luck was one of the best playmakers in the league, and in general, I think that playmaking ability is critical to playoff teams.

 

Tom Brady is a great example of QB who avoids mistakes, but even in games where the defense is dominant, he is called on to make a couple of plays down the stretch. He made big plays in his first SB, on that final drive. In this last SB, he had an early turnover, then vowed to his teammates he wouldn't make any more mistakes. But the game came down to the offense being able to score down the stretch, and he had to make some big plays. Meanwhile, Goff was completely incapable of doing anything to help his team.

 

I think Brissett has to rely heavily on his teammates to be successful, but I also think even the best overall team needs a couple of plays a game from the QB. And I thought that playmaking was lacking from Brissett in 2017. Hopefully Reich's coaching can help him be more efficient and productive, and to keep the offense moving.

I didn't think you were being that way at all I just want to reiterate the possibility this might be a fun season it would take a miracle to have a good season

[indyagent17]

1 hour ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

I don't read a lot outside this forum so I'm not aware of that.  Got a link to what they say?

Nobody's saying anything now that that's what I said. When and if losing starts you'll start hearing grumbling from the locker room. No one is going to start a problem now.

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Nah, I'm talking about Brissett's QBing. Missing throws, missing open receivers, holding the ball too long, being too slow to get out of the pocket, etc. He showed some serious limitations as a QB, and people kind of gloss over them because the team was bad and the coaching was bad, but I'm talking about his actual ability as a player.

 

I think Reich will help with efficiency and production, but playmaking is a trait, not a learned behavior. Brissett has some playmaking, I don't know if he has enough to succeed as an NFL QB, especially not for a championship team.

 

And again, I'd love to be wrong. I'm a big fan of Brissett's character, personality and leadership. I'm all about seeing him do well. 

His being is fine. Had alot of seven step drops with chud and the missed throws were due to lack of chemistry  and wrs not getting  separation 

[Two_pound]

I'm not really a Brissett fan myself as I have stated on here before. But you never know what could happen. Quick, short tosses to extremely fast (Hilton, Hines,Campbell) or extremely big(Ebron, Funchess, Cox) and this offense can score all Jacoby has to do is get the ball to the right guy at the right time. And this defense is shaping up to be something special.

[rockywoj]

Make the throws when needed, avoid turnovers. Simple, yes?

[indyagent17]

5 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

Make the throws when needed, avoid turnovers. Simple, yes?

He has all the physical gifts it's a matter of time to see how it translates. 

[FRW]

If you believe the article in the Star today it seems the team is getting a little tired of being dismissed because one player is gone. They also seem to be more than a little miffed at the booing Saturday. The general consensus is it was bush league and uncalled for. They didn't seem to be real happy with the fan base. 

[krunk]

Can you blame the fans? All they have is memories of Luck not playing in 2017 and Brissett not doing all that well. The smart fan however knows its deeper than that.

[King Colt]

Math Lesson:

1. Tennessee stinks.

2. Texans have no game plan.

3. Only Jacksonville's defense can be trouble. 

Add 1+2+3 = Indy winning the division.

[Stephen]

46 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Math Lesson:

1. Tennessee stinks.

2. Texans have no game plan.

3. Only Jacksonville's defense can be trouble. 

Add 1+2+3 = Indy winning the division.

I said jags are our biggest  threat earlier and I stick to it. Texans would be, but their oline is bad

[GoColts8818]

Here’s the thing it’s been a long time since Colts fans have seen a QB like Brissett who by all accounts is pretty good but he’s not elite.  He’s good enough to win but he’s not going to be able to cover up weaknesses like a guy like Manning or Luck could.  The Colts haven’t really had a QB like that as the starter since Harbaugh was here.  They have either had the elite of the elite or someone who is in way over their head for the most part.  It’s going to take some adjusting but the good news is that Ballard has been trying to build a team that can win with this type of QB.  

[ColtsAC]

Quote

Here’s the thing it’s been a long time since Colts fans have seen a QB like Brissett who by all accounts is pretty good but he’s not elite.  

Your comment made sense to me and after reading the first sentence, all I could think of was Jack Trudeau. He sure seemed capable, but it never really happened for him.

[lollygagger8]

No doubt Brissett has a rocket launcher for an arm. I think he moves well out of the pocket too. He does need to get the ball out of his hands quickly and accurately. 

 

We saw him as a rookie thrust into a crappy offensive system after he was only here for a few months? Now he's been here for two years in a much much better offensive system. He also has much better weapons and a stud O-line, so I have to believe he'll be better than before. 

[dw49]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I didn't mean to be pedantic.

 

But I also think we need more out of the QB than just an avoidance of mistakes. I think Luck was one of the best playmakers in the league, and in general, I think that playmaking ability is critical to playoff teams.

 

Tom Brady is a great example of QB who avoids mistakes, but even in games where the defense is dominant, he is called on to make a couple of plays down the stretch. He made big plays in his first SB, on that final drive. In this last SB, he had an early turnover, then vowed to his teammates he wouldn't make any more mistakes. But the game came down to the offense being able to score down the stretch, and he had to make some big plays. Meanwhile, Goff was completely incapable of doing anything to help his team.

 

I think Brissett has to rely heavily on his teammates to be successful, but I also think even the best overall team needs a couple of plays a game from the QB. And I thought that playmaking was lacking from Brissett in 2017. Hopefully Reich's coaching can help him be more efficient and productive, and to keep the offense moving.

 

Love the word pedantic ..... first time I've ever seen it. 

[IndyScribe]

I'm cautiously optimistic. This team is miles better than the one in 2017, and that team was in many games. This team has also been compared to 2001 Patriots. 

[Superman]

13 hours ago, Stephen said:

the missed throws were due to lack of chemistry  and wrs not getting  separation

 

See, I think the missed throws were because he's not that good. But hoping I'm wrong.

[Imgrandojji]

16 hours ago, Superman said:

. And I thought that playmaking was lacking from Brissett in 2017. 

 

And where was brisset supposed to get playmakers in 2017?  Other than TY, who did we have that Brissett could count on to turn in big plays?

 

Even the greats need to have something to work with. 

 

And that's besides the fact that that was effectively Brissett's rookie campaign.  I think he did pretty well to keep his mistakes minimal and put the team in position to win football games.

 

If the team can't then win those games due to not getting stops in the 4th quarter, I've got other places to hang that blame than a rookie QB

[throwing BBZ]

 It is beyond comprehension that one would think 2017 Brissett, with that situation, team, and coaching, would be nearly the same player NOW.
 Give him 12 games to build consistency, and confidence with all these new receivers please. There is NO reason he can't be very good. Including being better than what we had in some aspects.
 

[Scott Pennock]

Tolzien 0-1

Brissett 4-11 - however, we had the lead in the 4th quarter of 9 of those losses in 2017 and lost all but 2 games I think by 3-6 points? I could be off by a game or two.

 

Thats when Chud called run left.....run right......pray on 3rd down.....punt! Every second half of every game, or so it seemed.

[chad72]

10 hours ago, Stephen said:

I said jags are our biggest  threat earlier and I stick to it. Texans would be, but their oline is bad

 

Jaguars are much better than some people here expect them to be plus their schedule is cushier than ours for those 2 AFC games that are different. 

 

They beat us 6-0 with Luck, sounds like a tennis score, but they are always the team that gives us issues.

[Superman]

16 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

And where was brisset supposed to get playmakers in 2017?  Other than TY, who did we have that Brissett could count on to turn in big plays?

 

Even the greats need to have something to work with. 

 

And that's besides the fact that that was effectively Brissett's rookie campaign.  I think he did pretty well to keep his mistakes minimal and put the team in position to win football games.

 

If the team can't then win those games due to not getting stops in the 4th quarter, I've got other places to hang that blame than a rookie QB

 

I'm not knocking Brissett for not having great stats or even for not winning a lot of games. I'm saying I think he showed significant limitations as a passer and a QB, and that's not dependent on stats, wins or teammates. 

 

To go further, one of the major issues with Brissett in 2017 was that he didn't see open receivers at times. That's something that should be much better with the new staff, and since he has a year in the offense. I expect his decision making and reaction times to be much improved.

 

But he also struggled with accuracy and touch, he didn't show great pocket awareness or mobility, and he had a lot of fumbles. (By the way, he's always had a lot of fumbles, since college.) These are not a function of the offense or coaching. These are his own limitations, independent of any external factors.

 

Obviously, he can improve, but Brissett has never been praised for his accuracy or his touch, so he probably doesn't have a high ceiling there. He's not quick footed, he doesn't navigate the pocket very well, and he'll have to focus in on ball protection on top of trying to avoid the pass rush and deliver the ball to receivers. 

 

If the protection sucks, if his receivers drop passes, if the coaching is inept, I won't be blaming him. But if he's throwing bad passes, fumbling, holding the ball too long, overlooking open receivers, and struggling to navigate the pocket, well those will be the same issues that he showed two years ago. 

[John Waylon]

16 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Nah, I'm talking about Brissett's QBing. Missing throws, missing open receivers, holding the ball too long, being too slow to get out of the pocket, etc. He showed some serious limitations as a QB, and people kind of gloss over them because the team was bad and the coaching was bad, but I'm talking about his actual ability as a player.

 

I think Reich will help with efficiency and production, but playmaking is a trait, not a learned behavior. Brissett has some playmaking, I don't know if he has enough to succeed as an NFL QB, especially not for a championship team.

 

And again, I'd love to be wrong. I'm a big fan of Brissett's character, personality and leadership. I'm all about seeing him do well. 

 

I want to take this post to dinner and a movie. 

 

Is he going to be the worst QB in the league?

 

No.

 

Is he going to be able to take an 6-8 win team and make them a 10-12 win team?

 

Also no.

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 It is beyond comprehension that one would think 2017 Brissett, with that situation, team, and coaching, would be nearly the same player NOW.
 Give him 12 games to build consistency, and confidence with all these new receivers please. There is NO reason he can't be very good. Including being better than what we had in some aspects.
 

 

There are several reasons he might not be very good: throwing accuracy, pocket awareness, reading coverages, identifying blitzes/hots, etc. 

 

You guys know that QBs don't get better at these things just because time passes, right? Some of these traits are inherent. There are very talented and smart QBs who struggle in the NFL because they can't figure this stuff out.

 

There are others who do get better, or who make up for a deficiency in one area by leaning on another area of strength -- Cam Newton struggles with several aspects of pro QBing, but makes up for it with athleticism and arm strength. 

 

I don't doubt that Brissett will be better. My question is whether he'll be good enough, whether he'll prove to be a starting caliber NFL QB. Last time we saw him, he was just a plucky and determined fighter with a strong arm. That won't get it done now.

[Rackeen305]

16 hours ago, presto123 said:

I'm not rooting against Brissett either, but the fact that we ARE playing with house money now makes me want to see what all the buzz is with Kelly. Most people think he has more physical tools than Brissett. Brissett needs to be given a fair shot though. I have no doubt he will, but I'm dying to know how Kelly would perform in real games against 1st stringers. I have my doubts about Brissett based on what I have seen in the past.

What has he (Kelly) shown that he is in fact better than JB?

[stitches]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not knocking Brissett for not having great stats or even for not winning a lot of games. I'm saying I think he showed significant limitations as a passer and a QB, and that's not dependent on stats, wins or teammates. 

 

To go further, one of the major issues with Brissett in 2017 was that he didn't see open receivers at times. That's something that should be much better with the new staff, and since he has a year in the offense. I expect his decision making and reaction times to be much improved.

 

But he also struggled with accuracy and touch, he didn't show great pocket awareness or mobility, and he had a lot of fumbles. (By the way, he's always had a lot of fumbles, since college.) These are not a function of the offense or coaching. These are his own limitations, independent of any external factors.

 

Obviously, he can improve, but Brissett has never been praised for his accuracy or his touch, so he probably doesn't have a high ceiling there. He's not quick footed, he doesn't navigate the pocket very well, and he'll have to focus in on ball protection on top of trying to avoid the pass rush and deliver the ball to receivers. 

 

If the protection sucks, if his receivers drop passes, if the coaching is inept, I won't be blaming him. But if he's throwing bad passes, fumbling, holding the ball too long, overlooking open receivers, and struggling to navigate the pocket, well those will be the same issues that he showed two years ago. 

Agree with most of what you wrote here. The one thing I will point out is that I've actually been impressed with his pocket presence and subtle movement this pre-season. He's actually made some high level evasive maneuvers within the pocket to avoid rushers and secure himself a throwing window. I think this is one thing that I have hopes has changed a bit. 

 

In general I don't think accuracy is very fixable and I agree with you that he's never been touted for his accuracy, so I don't expect anything exceptional there. I guess the hope is that the scheme will help him isolate and eliminate throws more easily. 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

The one thing I will point out is that I've actually been impressed with his pocket presence and subtle movement this pre-season. He's actually made some high level evasive maneuvers within the pocket to avoid rushers and secure himself a throwing window. I think this is one thing that I have hopes has changed a bit. 

 

I hope so. I haven't paid much attention to his play in preseason this year.

[Fisticuffs111]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

There are several reasons he might not be very good: throwing accuracy, pocket awareness, reading coverages, identifying blitzes/hots, etc. 

 

You guys know that QBs don't get better at these things just because time passes, right? Some of these traits are inherent. There are very talented and smart QBs who struggle in the NFL because they can't figure this stuff out.

 

There are others who do get better, or who make up for a deficiency in one area by leaning on another area of strength -- Cam Newton struggles with several aspects of pro QBing, but makes up for it with athleticism and arm strength. 

 

I don't doubt that Brissett will be better. My question is whether he'll be good enough, whether he'll prove to be a starting caliber NFL QB. Last time we saw him, he was just a plucky and determined fighter with a strong arm. That won't get it done now.

Yeah, there seems to be these really high expectations for Brissett without looking into who he is as a player. I like his leadership/toughness and strong arm as much as the next guy, but like you said earlier in thread, people seem to be glossing over his weaknesses.

I get it, people are pushing the "better coaching, better OL, better receivers, better defense than '17," which is accurate. But the better coaching/OL won't matter if he still struggles with pre-snap/blitz/coverage reads, better receivers won't matter if he still struggles with accuracy, etc.

Sure, he can improve in certain areas. Apparently he was working with Tom House while he was in Indy on improving accuracy (although that seems like one of the harder skills to get better at as a QB). But it's entirely reasonable to think he gets better than he was in '17 but still isn't good enough to be our long term starter. I do think (or hope) he'll get a little better at making reads as he gets more comfortable and confident, but I'm not super confident that he'll make a big enough jump overall for me to think he's the answer.

[Shive]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

Obviously, he can improve, but Brissett has never been praised for his accuracy or his touch, so he probably doesn't have a high ceiling there. He's not quick footed, he doesn't navigate the pocket very well

These are exactly my concerns as well and not just because of the 2017 season, but also the preseason glimpses. I'm extremely hopeful for him, but I don't want to be too optimistic until I see more to help quell those concerns.