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Tsarquise

Is there a huge difference.....

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It's a nonesense comparison between apples and bananas. Luck is obviously suffering under a kind of depression and reached a point where he thought retirement is the only way to escape and get mentally healthy you just can't compare that with McDaniels! Yes the timing and circumstances are bad, but mental issues are very tricky and even Andrew is just a human being. The thing with those mental issues (as someone who is dealing with depression myself) ist that you always think you can overcome them and just keep to carry on somehow until you reach that point where you just can't anymore. And I think Luck reached that point. The thing is you don't decide that moment by yourself, the illness does it for you! 

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4 hours ago, KB said:

At least Andrew didnt say "go patriots" afterwards.

 

Love gallows humor.  Thanks for that.

 

You know, we couldn't believe our luck when we got Andrew after Peyton.  But now our luck has literally run out.  It's over but we still move forward.

 

We've got great leadership and some great players.  It could be much worse than it is.

 

Once we've processed that, we'll be fine.  Other teams haven't had the good fortune we've had.

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8 hours ago, Hoose said:

The problem with your theory is that Luck was ready to go this Spring before his setback. When free agency was ongoing there was no retirement talk. When he got hurt again and things lingered, the situation deteriorated. There was no reason for Luck to retire in February. Foles was never coming here because no one, Luck included, saw this coming back then. 

We don't know any of that for certain.  Luck was saying a week ago that he would be ready for the opener.   

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What we know is Luck has sacrificed his physical health for this team.  To even try to compare this to McDaniels makes no sense.  McDaniels never gave ANYTHING for this team.  Luck carried this team for a few years and got pounded regularly for it.  He suffered severe injuries, including internal injuries.  And yet so many people now can just ignore that because their feelings are hurt.

 

I would imagine Luck really did want to play and I am sure this was a very difficult decision for him.  McDaniels - not so much.  He just had a talk with Billy and Bobby and changed his mind.  Simple. 

 

McDaniels chose to stay a coach in football.  Luck chose to stop playing the game he loved and leave his team mates.  That makes this a huge decision for him.

 

Two totally different situations.

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15 hours ago, csmopar said:

Yeah, I don’t think it was some large thought out conspiracy. But some times, things can happen that can cause truths to turn into lies. This would be one of those cases. 

 

We can’t judge his intent. We can only judge him by his actions and his words and his actions and words said he was playing week one, all the while doubting that he really would. 

 

I don’t think either one lied. They both were trying to talk themselves into doing something that neither one was 100% certain they wanted to do. 

 

The timing was terrible for both. 

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16 hours ago, csmopar said:

Yeah, I don’t think it was some large thought out conspiracy. But some times, things can happen that can cause truths to turn into lies. This would be one of those cases. 

Exactly.

 

This is a situation where Luck's heart has been telling him that he didn't want to play....for probably a fairly long time, IMO...longer than we think....but his head was going through the processes, trying to spark the heart.

 

Then he realized that he has been creating his own conflict and decided to make what he really wanted official.  That made it appear like all of his past public statements weren't sincere at the time.

 

But Is that worse than Josh apparently telling CB he was accepting the job....where CB stopped seeking coaches.....then backed out on CB?  I don't think so.

 

I think Josh had a sincere change of heart.  I think Luck has had a hard time figuring out what his heart was saying.

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Exactly.

 

This is a situation where Luck's heart has been telling him that he didn't want to play....for probably a fairly long time, IMO...longer than we think....but his head was going through the motions of trying to spark the heart again.

 

Then he realized he was creating his own conflict and decided to make what he really wanted official.  That made it appear like all of his past public statements weren't sincere at the time.

 

But Is that worse than Josh apparently telling CB he was accepting the job....where CB stopped seeking coaches.....then backed out on CB?  I don't think so.

To the bold, I still think yes. Mainly due to the timing.  When McDaniel's backed out, Ballard had plenty of time to find a new coach. Luck backed out 2 weeks before season and 1 week before serious prep for the Chargers started. That combined with the perception of falsely misleading fans, makes the Luck situation worse. at least in my mind. 

For the record, I do not hate or dislike Luck or his choice to retire. He's earned that. However, I do hate the way he went about it. 

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19 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

Between what Andrew Luck did and what Josh McDaniels did? 

 

They both changed their minds at the last minute, and they both did what was advantageous for them. Both of their decisions affected a lot of people, yet one received huge backlash, and the other received a rush of support. I'm sure if the Colts had known Luck was going to retire, their off-season moves would have been at least a little different. 

 

I am aware of the Colts Patriots bias for the two of them, and I know I'll receive backlash for this, but there is not a lot of difference between the two, imo. 

 

Now that I think about it, McDaniels never even signed, yet Luck was under contract, which, imo makes it worse. 

Speaking as a Patriots fan, the two are very different.

 

McDaniels had given his word to become the HC then at the last minute (for whatever reason) changed his mind.

 

Meanwhile Luck had every intention I believe be your QB until he got hurt again. I know you will say “it’s a minor injury” but so was Gronks a thigh bruise in the SB and that’s what made him retire. Sometimes even what WE may consider a minor injury is just the last straw for the player.

 

so in ending McDaniels was a (bleep) who changed his mind for no good reason , while Luck has plenty of reasons why he retired.  Your Colts IMO ruined his career and shortened Manning’s with such horrid Offensive line play. But that’s MY OPINION.

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Just now, csmopar said:

To the bold, I still think yes. Mainly due to the timing.  When McDaniel's backed out, Ballard had plenty of time to find a new coach. Luck backed out 2 weeks before season and 1 week before serious prep for the Chargers started. That combined with the perception of falsely misleading fans, makes the Luck situation worse. at least in my mind. 

For the record, I do not hate or dislike Luck or his choice to retire. He's earned that. However, I do hate the way he went about it. 

Maybe.  I think realistically that by the time Josh backed out, only the SB team coaches were available, but I could be mistaken.

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Maybe.  I think realistically that by the time Josh backed out, only the SB team coaches were available, but I could be mistaken.

You are correct. However, at least there were options available, even viable ones. What options outside of Jacoby and Kelly are there really at this point in time? Kaepernick for sure is not. 

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Addressing the OP, yes. There is a giant difference. Josh McDaniels already had investment in the Patriots and really had no reason to sign with Indy, especially with Luck's injury concerns. He also didn't play QB for them while getting beat to half death behind turnstiles at OL and failed investments almost everywhere else. 

 

What Luck did is more immediately effective but both moves make sense. McDaniels is a snake and we should've seen that coming. Luck was historically let down but his franchise and felt like he didn't have more to give. It's a hard, unfortunate truth.

 

 

19 hours ago, csmopar said:

In my opinion, what Luck did actually is worse.  

 

Now, before you all call for my head, read this and let me tell you why.

One of these two had numerous interviews and pressers saying they were expecting to play week 1.

One of these two went out 2 weeks ago, in front of all the fans, and ran cone drills, then said afterwards he felt pretty good.

One of these two went out on national tv on the 3rd preseason game and threw footballs in front of the fans at the stadium and on tv.  

One of these two then announced he was quitting late in the 4th quarter of that very game in which he was throwing footballs around in the pregame.


 

The other never actually said in public he was going to coach the Colts.

People aren't, I repeat, ARE NOT upset because he retired.  Most everyone is understanding to his reasons. People are mad and upset because he taunted fans for the last month with things mentioned above and more. He played the fans for their emotions, he showed off in front of them twice at games. Then suddenly, retires with a lame excuse such as "losing the love of the game".  That doesn't happen over night and it surely doesn't happen middle of a game where you're on the sidelines. No, this whole thing was brought on by Luck himself. He toyed the fans and that is why so many, including myself, think he betrayed the team and the fans. 

 

 

Andrew Luck didn't "taunt"  the fans. He did what a professional athlete does and moves diplomatically while making moves behind the scenes. He discussed the probability of his retirement with Irsay and Reich privately and decided to go ahead with it, so Irsay and Reich knew as well. It's not his fault that a scummy reporter outed him and forced him to retire after the 3rd preseason game. It's almost as if you didn't even watch the press conference after, he was physically and mentally worn down after years of incompetent coaching and management. I think anyone would lose love for the game if you ended up urinating blood after a game....To think Luck toyed with fans is a lame excuse to rationalize the booing. Give the man a break. Lord knows the Indianapolis Colts didn't...

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2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

You are correct. However, at least there were options available, even viable ones. What options outside of Jacoby and Kelly are there really at this point in time? Kaepernick for sure is not. 

Pats will Trade you Hoyer for a 4th rounder!  Lol

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19 hours ago, csmopar said:

One of these two then announced he was quitting late in the 4th quarter of that very game in which he was throwing footballs around in the pregame.

 

Andrew didn't announce his retirement during the game, it was leaked to Schefter by a snake in the organization, forcing a shotgun press conference after the game.

 

C'mon man, don't push a false narrative to justify your emotions.

 

thats-illogical.jpg

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53 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Andrew didn't announce his retirement during the game, it was leaked to Schefter by a snake in the organization, forcing a shotgun press conference after the game.

 

C'mon man, don't push a false narrative to justify your emotions.

 

thats-illogical.jpg

doesn't matter who announced it, Andrew still knew his intentions before throwing those balls.

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1 minute ago, csmopar said:

doesn't matter who announced it, Andrew still knew his intentions before throwing those balls.

 

Do you think Luck made these decisions in a vacuum?

 

If he had made the decision to retire when you think it would have been more convenient (whenever that may be), don't you think Ballard would want Luck to hold off on making the announcement?

 

It's in the best interest of the Colts to have Luck as the QB, so Ballard would want Luck to wait as long as possible in case he changes his mind and wants to play.  The timing of his retirement may not be on Luck as much as you are making it out to be, it might be more on Ballard.  And the optics of him throwing before games might also be something Ballard suggested to see if it got Andrew into a gametime mindset and made him change his mind about retiring.

 

The bottom line is that none of us know enough to either crucify Luck or give him a pass.  We should wait until we have more information before coming to a conclusion about how Luck retired.  :thmup:

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18 hours ago, csmopar said:

things can happen that can cause truths to turn into lies

 

Changing your mind is not the same as lying.

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6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Changing your mind is not the same as lying.

You mean McDaniels changing his mind?

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21 hours ago, csmopar said:

In my opinion, what Luck did actually is worse.  

 

Now, before you all call for my head, read this and let me tell you why.

One of these two had numerous interviews and pressers saying they were expecting to play week 1.

One of these two went out 2 weeks ago, in front of all the fans, and ran cone drills, then said afterwards he felt pretty good.

One of these two went out on national tv on the 3rd preseason game and threw footballs in front of the fans at the stadium and on tv.  

One of these two then announced he was quitting late in the 4th quarter of that very game in which he was throwing footballs around in the pregame.


 

The other never actually said in public he was going to coach the Colts.

People aren't, I repeat, ARE NOT upset because he retired.  Most everyone is understanding to his reasons. People are mad and upset because he taunted fans for the last month with things mentioned above and more. He played the fans for their emotions, he showed off in front of them twice at games. Then suddenly, retires with a lame excuse such as "losing the love of the game".  That doesn't happen over night and it surely doesn't happen middle of a game where you're on the sidelines. No, this whole thing was brought on by Luck himself. He toyed the fans and that is why so many, including myself, think he betrayed the team and the fans. 

 

I hate to agree with this, but it's hard not to.

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1 minute ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I hate to agree with this, but it's hard not to.

trust me, I didn't like typing it either. That is an understatement

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I'm in the middle.   I'm not totally on the side of the "poor Luck" people and I don't hate Luck for retiring.  Not sure if I would have boo'd him or not.   I wouldn't feel bad if I did, but I may have clapped for him like most people did.  

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21 minutes ago, Myles said:

You mean McDaniels changing his mind?

 

18 minutes ago, csmopar said:

:peek::Nuke:

 

No, Luck. I don't think I ever seriously referred to McDaniels as a liar. 

 

Andrew Luck deciding he didn't want to keep playing doesn't transform his previous statements into lies. He changed his mind. People do that sometimes.

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7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

No, Luck. I don't think I ever seriously referred to McDaniels as a liar. 

 

Andrew Luck deciding he didn't want to keep playing doesn't transform his previous statements into lies. He changed his mind. People do that sometimes.

Does that also apply to McDaniels?

He changed his mind.

I'm playing a bit of devils' advocate here, but it seems Luck and McDaniels both did similar things.   Forgive both or hate both?

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3 minutes ago, Myles said:

Does that also apply to McDaniels?

He changed his mind.

I'm playing a bit of devils' advocate here, but it seems Luck and McDaniels both did similar things.   Forgive both or hate both?

 

I don't think anyone needs to forgive McDaniels. He didn't have a relationship with Colts fans, and vice versa. I think he was less than genuine, but he didn't spend seven years as a member of the team. He chose not to come, so we moved on. I've made my peace with that. I think much less of McDaniels as a result; I don't think I hate him.

 

Luck was a Colt (still is, in my mind). The team was built around him, he had relationships with the players and coaches, and with the fans. And he abruptly retired. It was a drastic circumstance that wasn't handled very well. But, if what he and the team are saying is true, I don't think he lied, and I don't think he did anything wrong. I got over my hurt feelings without any need to forgive Luck for retiring.

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22 hours ago, csmopar said:

In my opinion, what Luck did actually is worse.  

 

Now, before you all call for my head, read this and let me tell you why.

One of these two had numerous interviews and pressers saying they were expecting to play week 1.

One of these two went out 2 weeks ago, in front of all the fans, and ran cone drills, then said afterwards he felt pretty good.

One of these two went out on national tv on the 3rd preseason game and threw footballs in front of the fans at the stadium and on tv.  

One of these two then announced he was quitting late in the 4th quarter of that very game in which he was throwing footballs around in the pregame.


 

The other never actually said in public he was going to coach the Colts.

People aren't, I repeat, ARE NOT upset because he retired.  Most everyone is understanding to his reasons. People are mad and upset because he taunted fans for the last month with things mentioned above and more. He played the fans for their emotions, he showed off in front of them twice at games. Then suddenly, retires with a lame excuse such as "losing the love of the game".  That doesn't happen over night and it surely doesn't happen middle of a game where you're on the sidelines. No, this whole thing was brought on by Luck himself. He toyed the fans and that is why so many, including myself, think he betrayed the team and the fans. 

 

giphy.gif

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35 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think anyone needs to forgive McDaniels. He didn't have a relationship with Colts fans, and vice versa. I think he was less than genuine, but he didn't spend seven years as a member of the team. He chose not to come, so we moved on. I've made my peace with that. I t

 

Luck was a Colt (still is, in my mind). The team was built around him, he had relationships with the players and coaches, and with the fans. And he abruptly retired. It was a drastic circumstance that wasn't handled very well. But, if what he and the team are saying is true, I don't think he lied, and I don't think he did anything wrong. I got over my hurt feelings without any need to forgive Luck for retiring.

To the bolded, that's why his abrupt change of heart is worse. I can't really imagine making that same decision knowing so many people whom I have a relationship with are relying on me. I'm not talking about fans. I probably would have played one more year, because that's what I had signed up for. I then would have let it be known that it would be my last year. Or let it be known after season was over. 

 

Just weird to me how McDaniels was pubicly met with vitriol, yet Luck was met with admiration and sympathy. 

 

Of course, if this mysterious injury was going to keep Luck from playing this year, then I understand the timing.  But it doesn't seem like that's the case. 

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1 hour ago, Tsarquise said:

To the bolded, that's why his abrupt change of heart is worse. I can't really imagine making that same decision knowing so many people whom I have a relationship with are relying on me. I'm not talking about fans. I probably would have played one more year, because that's what I had signed up for. I then would have let it be known that it would be my last year. Or let it be known after season was over. 

 

Just weird to me how McDaniels was pubicly met with vitriol, yet Luck was met with admiration and sympathy. 

 

Of course, if this mysterious injury was going to keep Luck from playing this year, then I understand the timing.  But it doesn't seem like that's the case. 

 

To me, the primary difference is that Luck decided he wasn't going to play anymore, for anyone. He decided he couldn't continue. He didn't choose to go play for someone else.

 

Even when we have people depending on us, when it comes down to it, we all have to make decisions based on our priorities. Those priorities might differ from one person to the next, but there's usually a point where we all decide we have to put ourselves first.

 

 I'd also like to point out that admiration and sympathy were not the initial reaction to Luck's decision. Many have not reached that point; some never will. 

 

But really, my point was that when you have an actual relationship with someone or something, it's normal to want to repair that relationship when something damages it. When someone new comes along and right away burns you, it's natural to write that person off. There is no positive history to fall back on, no reason to find a basis for forgiveness or reconciliation.. you're just done. 

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1 hour ago, Tsarquise said:

To the bolded, that's why his abrupt change of heart is worse. I can't really imagine making that same decision knowing so many people whom I have a relationship with are relying on me. I'm not talking about fans. I probably would have played one more year, because that's what I had signed up for. I then would have let it be known that it would be my last year. Or let it be known after season was over. 

 

Just weird to me how McDaniels was pubicly met with vitriol, yet Luck was met with admiration and sympathy. 

 

Of course, if this mysterious injury was going to keep Luck from playing this year, then I understand the timing.  But it doesn't seem like that's the case. 

 

Sounds to me like you're making a leap of logic here.  Is it really justified to assume that Luck could have played at an acceptable level if he hadn't chosen to retire?

 

I get why this assumption isn't being questioned.  The franchise has been pretending everything was all rainbows and sunbeams after all.  But the way Luck was carrying himself when he announced his retirement didn't look like a guy who could lead the team. Not up to the standards he himself had set.

 

Looking at what wasn't said that conference, I got the distinct intention that the choice was between retiring, or playing on as a shell of his former self,substantially below the level he wants to be remembered for. 

 

If the option of playing on at a level that satisfied Luck himself was an option, we probably aren't in this situation.

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Never try to argue logic to a person seeking a "pound of flesh". They are going to use your logic in a way that only strengthens their resolve and their needs, until they are finally satisfied for the horrrrrrrible wrong they have had to suffer. It does not matter who else is affected by this need .....it will be satisfied.

 

Sadly, for some, that will never be satisfied. The fact that Manning not being re-signed has been mentioned over and over during this new "unforgivable" event, is proof that the pound of flesh must be acquired, even if infinity is required.  

 

A former friend of mine bought 5 lottery tickets when it first came to Oregon. None of them were winners. He stuck them into the spring at the bottom of the antenna of his compact truck, and proudly displayed them until they finally rotted off. He made sure everyone knew of how he was getting even for his wasted choice of buying those. I even mentioned it to him one time well over a year after they had disappeared, saying that I remembered those....desiccating there. He immediately regurgitated the whole event, once again getting some more "Repayment" for his wrong.

 

To me, it is a condition of the mind.

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2 hours ago, Four2itus said:

Never try to argue logic to a person seeking a "pound of flesh". They are going to use your logic in a way that only strengthens their resolve and their needs, until they are finally satisfied for the horrrrrrrible wrong they have had to suffer. It does not matter who else is affected by this need .....it will be satisfied.

 

Sadly, for some, that will never be satisfied. The fact that Manning not being re-signed has been mentioned over and over during this new "unforgivable" event, is proof that the pound of flesh must be acquired, even if infinity is required.  

 

A former friend of mine bought 5 lottery tickets when it first came to Oregon. None of them were winners. He stuck them into the spring at the bottom of the antenna of his compact truck, and proudly displayed them until they finally rotted off. He made sure everyone knew of how he was getting even for his wasted choice of buying those. I even mentioned it to him one time well over a year after they had disappeared, saying that I remembered those....desiccating there. He immediately regurgitated the whole event, once again getting some more "Repayment" for his wrong.

 

To me, it is a condition of the mind.

I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

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On 8/27/2019 at 4:02 PM, csmopar said:

In my opinion, what Luck did actually is worse.  

 

Now, before you all call for my head, read this and let me tell you why.

One of these two had numerous interviews and pressers saying they were expecting to play week 1.

One of these two went out 2 weeks ago, in front of all the fans, and ran cone drills, then said afterwards he felt pretty good.

One of these two went out on national tv on the 3rd preseason game and threw footballs in front of the fans at the stadium and on tv.  

One of these two then announced he was quitting late in the 4th quarter of that very game in which he was throwing footballs around in the pregame.


 

The other never actually said in public he was going to coach the Colts.

People aren't, I repeat, ARE NOT upset because he retired.  Most everyone is understanding to his reasons. People are mad and upset because he taunted fans for the last month with things mentioned above and more. He played the fans for their emotions, he showed off in front of them twice at games. Then suddenly, retires with a lame excuse such as "losing the love of the game".  That doesn't happen over night and it surely doesn't happen middle of a game where you're on the sidelines. No, this whole thing was brought on by Luck himself. He toyed the fans and that is why so many, including myself, think he betrayed the team and the fans. 

 Not enough "likes" in the known universe for this post. Andrew lead the fanbase on with lies, plain and simple lies.

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Name one time McDaniel went on the IR or got busted up. Name one good thing McDaniel did for the Colts beside quitting.

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23 hours ago, Nadine said:

Once we've processed that, we'll be fine.  Other teams haven't had the good fortune we've had.

 

The five stages of grief:

 

  1. Denial
  2. Anger
  3. Bargaining
  4. Depression
  5. Acceptance

 

I went through all five pretty quickly. I had accepted it and moved on by Sunday afternoon. But everyone experiences grief in their own way. There was a similar spectacle when it became evident the Colts would cut Manning

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21 hours ago, csmopar said:

You are correct. However, at least there were options available, even viable ones. What options outside of Jacoby and Kelly are there really at this point in time? Kaepernick for sure is not. 

Again, this is not something Luck knew he would be doing until the last few weeks.  Remember, he's forced himself to play through severe pain before.  Very likely he was trying to go through the same motions, and emotions, again but this time it was different somehow.

 

I think that Luck's retirement came as much of a surprise to Luck as to the rest of us, and as he had every intention to play and didn't realize he couldn't until weeks before the season the timing didn't matter as much as people think.  There was no way this was coming to a head before the big FAs were gone anyway.

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Who knows, maybe disaster number 2 (Luck out/Brissett in), will work out as well as disaster number 1 (McD out/Reich in). 

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On 8/27/2019 at 7:43 PM, 1959Colts said:

I agree with you and I also would add...

If Luck didn't wait till the last minute, the team could have perhaps acquired another quality QB, either through the draft, or free agency.

I think he informed the team with 3-4 weeks before start of season, if not sooner. There was nobody out there worth taking a crack at that wasn’t already at best was equal to JB and even what Kelly has looked like. Did they have any indication from Luck before the draft this was any consideration from Luck? We don’t know that either but even so, I don’t see us taking a mid level QB to replace a possibly departing Luck. Foles just wasn’t a guy that’s bettering this team by all accounts. He was right for the Philly team and those circumstances, he wasn’t a Kurt Warner coming off the bench. 

On 8/27/2019 at 9:56 PM, Introspect said:

Brissett will have better stats than Foles this year. Foles is not better than Jacoby.

Nobody knows that. Right now, you are either gonna come back here pumping your chest to say see, I told you all or you’re going to stay back and hope nobody recalls your bold 50/50 gamble to say this. My concerns for JB will be his slower release and his decision making. We know he can make all the throws, his touch certainly isn’t considered as elite and he has shown inconsistencies in his preseason time. I like JB and I certainly hope all this comes together for him and the team but call me a bit skeptical. 

 

As for JB having better stats, he should absolutely have better stats, he has better tools around him to make that happen. If he doesn’t, we are going to see a half season or more of Chad Kelly. 

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Ya’ll sound like ESPN. It’s just not that dramatic. He was going to rehab for the billionth time, the doctors couldn’t make up their minds what was wrong, and he said * this. And this was on top of all the injuries that left him just sitting on his can healing and not rehabbing. 

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