Character doesn’t matter??

[aaron11]

10 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

 And I think there's a major disconnect between fans and the people who have to deal with these guys on the day to day. 

of course there is a disconnect and it goes both ways.  i dont need to care if zeke gets in some random altercation.  dont do anything heinous, show up and win games and im fine with that.  i dont expect or need a team full of perfect saints.  

 

the colts have had players get in trouble too, like Mathis and Harrison.  Even Peyton was accused of stuff.  none of which affected me

[shasta519]

24 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

Zeke has had several off the field issues. Jerry supported him and now Zeke is holding out early.  It ticked him off.  Zeke is thought to have character issues outside of the money grab. 

 

Jones supported him because they invesitaged and didn't think he deserved a suspension.

 

I think calling it a "money grab" is incorrect...and indicative of what I have been talking about. 

[Myles]

56 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

Does that go both ways? If Zeke is wrong for wanting something different than his contract do you believe the teams should be forced to keep a player for the duration of a contract - no matter what? 

You can't have it both ways. If you want player contracts to be honored because "he signed a contract" then the teams need to honor the contracts and make them 100% guaranteed. No more cutting due to performance inside of a contract.

I understand what you are saying, but it is part of the contract that the team can cut them if they wish.   A flaw in the contracts for the players, but an agreed upon part of it.  

[Goatface Killah]

Just now, aaron11 said:

of course there is a disconnect and it goes both ways.  i dont need to care if zeke gets in some random altercation.  dont do anything heinous, show up and win games and im fine with that.  i dont expect or need a team full of perfect saints.  

 

the colts have had players get in trouble too, like Mathis and Harrison.  Even Peyton was accused of stuff 

Yes, but we never had to wonder whether or not any of those guys would show up to practice, or on Sunday. And I'm not saying what Mathis did didnt hurt us, it absolutely did. But he gets the benefit of the doubt, only because his character isn't questionable in any way. Hes a great great guy.

 

Manning and Harrison never got into any real trouble. So I dont think that is an equal comparison.

 

None of those guys are anything like the guys we are discussing, other than being great at football. 

[jameszeigler834]

2 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Jones supported him because they invesitaged and didn't think he deserved a suspension.

 

I think calling it a "money grab" is incorrect...and indicative of what I have been talking about. 

He has performed more than well enough to deserve a new contract but holding out isn't the best way to get it.

[Superman]

Just now, jameszeigler834 said:

He has performed more than well enough to deserve a new contract but holding out isn't the best way to get it.

 

What's the best way to get it?

[aaron11]

Just now, GoatBeard said:

Manning and Harrison never got into any real trouble. So I dont think that is an equal comparison.

 

 

they were accused of things and most assumed they were innocent.  Zeke has been accused of stuff too, nothing really bad has been proven.  yes he got in a fight though 

[jameszeigler834]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

What's the best way to get it?

Showing up and working show them you still deserve it a lot of time holding out doesn't get you anything but hurt when you come back.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 hours ago, runthepost said:

Superstars have egos. Nothing new. Zeke just wants to get paid that doesn’t make him a diva or have ego issues. 

 

He has 2 years left on his rookie deal, & he's holding out. On top of that he has some silly legal issue nearly every offseason. That's totally unnecessary drama.

[aaron11]

holding out to change unfair rules and contracts doesnt make one a bad character.  getting in random fights in the off season isnt ideal, but nor is it a big deal.  top player have random people start crap with them too

[shasta519]

14 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

He has performed more than well enough to deserve a new contract but holding out isn't the best way to get it.

 

It's the only way to get it...at least in DAL.

 

What's he supposed to do...play and hope that another younger cheaper RB doesn't come along. Considering his predecessor led the league in rushing and didn't get a big contract from DAL...doesn't seem like the best way to get a deal. 

 

He could get paid in FA...but he has to make it there in one piece and he will be entering his age 26 season at that point.

 

 

 

[shasta519]

17 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

they were accused of things and most assumed they were innocent.  Zeke has been accused of stuff too, nothing really bad has been proven.  yes he got in a fight though 

 

I can't defend Zeke totally....he has had some issues. But his team supposedly investigated and didn't think he deserved the suspension he got. 

[Superman]

15 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Showing up and working show them you still deserve it a lot of time holding out doesn't get you anything but hurt when you come back.

 

I'm not a fan of holdouts, but Zeke is trying to protect his earning potential. The playbook for teams dealing with RBs on rookie contracts is to run them into the ground, then let them walk in free agency. And I get that approach from the team standpoint, but from the player standpoint, it's not ideal. 

 

His only leverage -- even though it's not much -- comes from holding out. It also protects him from potential injury in meaningless games.

 

I don't know what will happen, it doesn't seem like the Cowboys are interested in meeting his contract demands so I figure he'll show up and play out this last year of his contract. But it does him no good to show up in good faith if he doesn't believe the Cowboys are serious about giving him a contract that comes close to his asking price.

[Rackeen305]

2 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

I'm really tired of this "alpha male" stuff.

 

Those are ranks we use to describe the position an animal holds in a pack, and that's what they are, not personality traits. AB would actually be considered an Omega and might be killed by the rest of the pack for being an omega. 

 

Also, when has Tom Brady pulled something like this? And who said anything about a guy getting fired up or being hard on teammates? We are talking about people who cant be trusted to even show up here. 

 

 

No but the team being wrong doesnt make AB right.

Not sure your point. But It's ok for TB12 to get other players fired up, why not be consistent and allow players to use their own techniques to get the same results, then when they do, they get criticized for doing it. Thats all.

[NorthernBlue]

player hold outs don’t really bother me as much. I used to think it was selfish but at the end of the day, a man is allowed to do whatever he thinks is in his best interest regarding his career. 

 

Do i I agree with it? No. Does it make Zeke a bad character for holding out? I don’t think so. That being said, it brings poor attention to the team, and me personally, I’d rather my team be low key in terms of media controversy. The longer hold outs last, the worse it gets for both player and team.

[Goatface Killah]

19 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

Not sure your point. But It's ok for TB12 to get other players fired up, why not be consistent and allow players to use their own techniques to get the same results, then when they do, they get criticized for doing it. Thats all.

Because I dont see how what AB does or Zeke getting suspended fires people up, I feel it does the exact opposite. How can you get fired up worrying about one of your beat players and whether or not they are happy all the time?

 

It wouldn't fire me up, I know that.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Marlon Mack will be eligible for a contract extension after this season. IF he has a huge year it will be interesting if ballard gives him a raise and a couple extra years. To tell you the truth if you have a great RB GM  should give them a raise and a couple extra years after the third Their careers are so short.

[Goatface Killah]

35 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not a fan of holdouts, but Zeke is trying to protect his earning potential. The playbook for teams dealing with RBs on rookie contracts is to run them into the ground, then let them walk in free agency. And I get that approach from the team standpoint, but from the player standpoint, it's not ideal. 

 

His only leverage -- even though it's not much -- comes from holding out. It also protects him from potential injury in meaningless games.

 

I don't know what will happen, it doesn't seem like the Cowboys are interested in meeting his contract demands so I figure he'll show up and play out this last year of his contract. But it does him no good to show up in good faith if he doesn't believe the Cowboys are serious about giving him a contract that comes close to his asking price.

I understand it too, but it's just not smart accounting.

 

Leveon Bell cost himself money, no matter how you look at it. He saved himself a year of wear and tear, but at the end of the day, he missed out on 14 million dollars last year and lost a year of his prime. He will likely not play an extra year because of it, and even if he did, he wont make as much money or produce more stats than he would have last year, when hes smack dab in the middle of his athletic prime. He gave up one of his best years, all so he could likely get a few more years on the back end, where he isn't going to make nearly as much money for taking the exact same risks, which will actually be enhanced by his advanced age. 

 

It was just a dumb move and it's not helping Zekes cause right now, but he should absolutely learn from it. I understand his thinking, but if he doesnt show up for week one, hes foolish. Melvin Gordon too. Sometimes you have to appreciate that someone is gonna pay you a ridiculous amount of money to play football, swallow you're pride and realize you're only worth what you can get.

[Goatface Killah]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

What's the best way to get it?

Show up and ball out. That's always the best way.

 

If Leveon showed up last year and had another year of his typical production, he likely isn't taking less this year. But his year off gave bargaining power to every team in the league. He sat out and surrounded himself with questions regarding his ability to be the same guy, and stay healthy.

[Creekside]

4 hours ago, aaron11 said:

i would take zeke over mack. 

 

You would take 31 other RB's over Marlin Mack.

[aaron11]

10 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

Show up and ball out. That's always the best way.

 

If Leveon showed up last year and had another year of his typical production, he likely isn't taking less this year. But his year off gave bargaining power to every team in the league. He sat out and surrounded himself with questions regarding his ability to be the same guy, and stay healthy.

like brown, he didnt want to be with the steelers anymore either.  there were others too, some are gone some still there 

3 minutes ago, egg said:

 

You would take 31 other RB's over Marlin Mack.

im not sure where you got this from.  its at least 10-15.  maybe more

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

I understand it too, but it's just not smart accounting.

 

Leveon Bell cost himself money, no matter how you look at it. He saved himself a year of wear and tear, but at the end of the day, he missed out on 14 million dollars last year and lost a year of his prime. He will likely not play an extra year because of it, and even if he did, he wont make as much money or produce more stats than he would have last year, when hes smack dab in the middle of his athletic prime. He gave up one of his best years, all so he could likely get a few more years on the back end, where he isn't going to make nearly as much money for taking the exact same risks, which will actually be enhanced by his advanced age. 

 

It was just a dumb move and it's not helping Zekes cause right now, but he should absolutely learn from it. I understand his thinking, but if he doesnt show up for week one, hes foolish. Melvin Gordon too. Sometimes you have to appreciate that someone is gonna pay you a ridiculous amount of money to play football, swallow you're pride and realize you're only worth what you can get.

 

12 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

Show up and ball out. That's always the best way.

 

If Leveon showed up last year and had another year of his typical production, he likely isn't taking less this year. But his year off gave bargaining power to every team in the league. He sat out and surrounded himself with questions regarding his ability to be the same guy, and stay healthy.

 

Two things. First, I'm not suggesting that he sit out the year. But I do understand him skipping training camp and not playing preseason, especially at such a high usage position.

 

Second, this is not like LeVeon. I don't think he'll sit out. But if he did, he's not walking away from $14m, he'd be losing ~$4m. Very different, and he'd most likely make that back if he reached free agency. And that's a different story as well, because he's far from free agency, assuming the Cowboys want to keep him. 

 

If recent reports are somewhat accurate, then Elliott probably gets a multi year deal at around $12-13m/year, at some point before the season starts. Otherwise, he shows up at some point in the next two weeks and plays. But I get why he has stayed away. It's the only leverage he has, even if it's not much.

 

Melvin Gordon is different, still. I get the impression the Chargers have no intention of re-signing him, his money is lower than Zeke's, and I think his demands are less. And they still won't talk to him. They want to run him and then let him walk -- not that I blame them, I wouldn't be re-signing him either. 

 

I think both of them will show up and play out the season, if necessary. I can't imagine either of them sitting out the year.

[Superman]

40 minutes ago, NorthernBlue said:

Do i I agree with it? No. Does it make Zeke a bad character for holding out? I don’t think so. That being said, it brings poor attention to the team, and me personally, I’d rather my team be low key in terms of media controversy. The longer hold outs last, the worse it gets for both player and team.

 

There's a way to handle it, though, and I don't think the Cowboys are doing a good job. They're negotiating through the media, commenting about it, etc. I'd prefer my team to just say 'we're not going to talk about player contracts, and we're not going to discuss players who aren't here besides to say we miss them and hope they come back soon,' and then move on. Hold the line, don't bring it up, don't joke about it. 

[Creekside]

3 hours ago, richard pallo said:

 

 

 

[Dark Superman]

I never thought about the importance of character until Chris Ballard came here. It's astonishing how much it affects the locker room on and off the field.

[Creekside]

And what about all the first round busts who never came close to compensating their employers for the millions they were paid?

 

Should the owners not be allowed to dishonor those contracts and pro-rate their earnings to what they really deserve?

[lollygagger8]

2 hours ago, richard pallo said:

I think so.  1st. Rd. Elite all pro vs. 4th rd. aspiring all pro.  Quite a difference talent wise.

 

Doesn't matter what round they were taken in.

TY was a 3rd rounder and he's a top ten WR. 

Bethea was a 6th rounder and better than most safeties 10-12 years later....he might even still be playing? 

We could do this all day really, but I ain't got that kind of time. 

 

Plus, Zeke has the benefit of an All Pro Line pretty much his entire career. That certainly helps. 

[lollygagger8]

3 hours ago, aaron11 said:

the OP said they would take mack over zeke so thats why i said it

 

maybe read the thread before making sarcastic meme posts

 

  4 hours ago, aaron11 said: "i would take zeke over mack."

 

Pretty difficult to misinterpret what you said, but ok. 

[aaron11]

3 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

  4 hours ago, aaron11 said: "i would take zeke over mack."

 

Pretty difficult to misinterpret what you said, but ok. 

 

i said that in response to the original post in this thread.  they said they would take mack over zeke and actually had people agreeing with them 

 

 

[shasta519]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

And what about all the first round busts who never came close to compensating their employers for the millions they were paid?

 

Should the owners not be allowed to dishonor those contracts and pro-rate their earnings to what they really deserve?

 

Owners dishonor contracts all the time though...since most deals aren't fully gtd.

 

First-round picks are gtd...which is the inherent risk picking in the 1st round...and the team knows that when they make the decision to draft a player. But because of the rookie wage scale (largely because of all those previous 1st round busts costing NFL teams millions of dollars)...they also now have the opportunity to reap the reward of surplus value if they draft a top-tier player. So now it's much more low-medium risk/high reward.

 

The drafted NFL player doesn't choose his team (unless he forces a trade)...and his contract is all but negotiated for him at that rookie scale. He doesn't really have the potential for additional value...outside of endorsement deals and maybe some incentive clauses. To get more money...he has to last 5 years into his career without getting hurt while performing at a high level...which is hard to do for RBs given how they are used and the perception of their aging curve. So getting drafted early is much more high risk/low-medium reward for a RB.

 

Not really much of a comparison.

[Rackeen305]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

What's the best way to get it?

The player has to prove their worth, even if that means leading the NFL 2 of 3 years in something... wait a minute.. I support Zeke. 

 

Its like Ike at your job, if they know you have a certain position life, is it right for the company to pay you for what you have done, or just replace you when that time comes.? Some folks act so surprised by players wanting their $. I’m sure they would want their $ as well.lol

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

 

Two things. First, I'm not suggesting that he sit out the year. But I do understand him skipping training camp and not playing preseason, especially at such a high usage position.

 

Every year this happens, but it is not said enough. He likely knows he doesn't have the leverage to get a new deal. But he has enough leverage to save wear and tear till the real games start. 

[Coltsfan66]

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
 

Martin Luther King Jr.

 

THAT is character and it makes a difference. 

[gspdx]

Trying to equate character issues to "Alpha Male" is apples and oranges.  The alpha male is the leader of the pack.  Or in our sports world - the leader of the team.  Being an alpha male is not in itself bad.  It is similar to equating arrogant and cocky guys to confident guys.  You can be very confident and not be cocky and arrogant.  But we have gotten to a point where we equate these things together and then rationalize the ridiculous behavior.  I have seen it on this board before where people say players need to be confident and "x" behavior is just confidence coming out when that is not the case at all.

 

So back to the alpha male - the leader of the team.  Not better than the team, not an "all me" kind of a guy.  There are so many guys that are more concerned about themselves - they are the character problems on a team.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Rackeen305 said:

The player has to prove their worth, even if that means leading the NFL 2 of 3 years in something... wait a minute.. I support Zeke. 

 

Its like Ike at your job, if they know you have a certain position life, is it right for the company to pay you for what you have done, or just replace you when that time comes.? Some folks act so surprised by players wanting their $. I’m sure they would want their $ as well.lol

 

I don't necessarily support Zeke, but I don't support the team, either. I see both sides, and I would probably be handling it just like it's being handled, whether I was the player or the team (with the exception of going to Cancun for Zeke, and talking about it to the media for the team). 

 

Overall, I don't think we acknowledge how common contract disputes are, outside of sports. Business people, professionals and their agents all negotiate and dispute contracts of various kinds, regularly. And fans take it personal when a contract dispute affects "their team," because we get invested in the decisions our teams make. There's also some envy of famous athletes who get paid millions to play a game that we love to watch.

 

I'm fascinated by NFL contracts, but I usually understand both sides of the debate. Players have a limited shelf life and want as much as they can get before their window closes; teams don't want to undermine the strength of the contracts to which players have agreed, which would encourage more contract disputes. And a few times a year, out of the 2,000 players in the league, there's a protracted standoff, which results in fans taking sides. 

 

1 hour ago, Four2itus said:

Every year this happens, but it is not said enough. He likely knows he doesn't have the leverage to get a new deal. But he has enough leverage to save wear and tear till the real games start. 

 

Thing is, reports suggest he's been offered a new deal. He probably has a decent offer on the table. But he doesn't have the leverage to get a top of the market deal.

 

Which is another wrinkle. The Rams got out ahead of the RB contract issue by extending Gurley well before they really needed to. It's looking questionable now because his knee issues are popping back up, but in theory, paying him early allowed them to reset the market for him and pay out his guaranteed money while he's still in his prime. They can think about releasing him after 2020, but even if he plays out his contract (which he won't), he's a free agent going into his age 30 season. They bought out his prime years, pushed some guaranteed money a couple years into the future, and probably will still release him before he finishes his contract. If you're going to spend a high first on a RB, I would think you'd be ready to pay him a couple years early to buy out his prime.

[Four2itus]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

Thing is, reports suggest he's been offered a new deal. He probably has a decent offer on the table. But he doesn't have the leverage to get a top of the market deal.

Exactly, I did mean "top of the market" deal. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

9 hours ago, Mitch Connors said:

Does that go both ways? If Zeke is wrong for wanting something different than his contract do you believe the teams should be forced to keep a player for the duration of a contract - no matter what? 

You can't have it both ways. If you want player contracts to be honored because "he signed a contract" then the teams need to honor the contracts and make them 100% guaranteed. No more cutting due to performance inside of a contract.

 

That's an interesting point.  But I don't think it's workable in reality.

 

If you signed a contract with your employer and you were guaranteed the next 5 years salary "no matter what", how hard would you work for the next 5 years?

 

I'm sure a lot of players would earn their contract "for the love of the game", but I think there would just be too many that would "take the money and run"...  Think about the guaranteed money that was wasted on guys like Jamarcus Russell, Albert Haynesworth, Corey Simon, etc...

[Creekside]

6 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Owners dishonor contracts all the time though...since most deals aren't fully gtd.

 

 

 

Surely you can see without me telling you that an owner is not breaking a contract when operating within the bounds of that contract.

 

On the other hand, a player is breaking a contract when he operates beyond the bounds of a contract.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WoolMagnet]

12 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

   When I see some of the garbage going on with AB, Jalen Ramsey, Zeke, etc. I’m just really glad the Colts emphasize character.

    No one is perfect and I can see a little diva in Ebron at times, but for the most part, the current team is a band of “team first” guys and I’ll take that anyday over guys primarily concerned about their “brand”.

  I heard Rick Venturi say the Colts are overemphasizing character and making the point that “you don’t have to game plan for character”, but character was a big reason the Colts won 9 out of 10. Character is what keeps guys from pointing fingers, when adversity comes.

  Give me TY over AB, Mack over Zeke and Desir over Ramsey.

   Humility + talent > arrogance + talent. Human beings are at their best when they become a part of something bigger than themselves, be it a marriage, band, family, church or team.

    

Character also still gives 100% late in games when you are down and things look impossible.  I think we saw some of this last year.

[ojsglove]

When does it end??  When the stadiums are half empty because the fans can 't afford to go to the game?  I see all NFL games only on pay for view in the near future???