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Irsay’s comments on Luck

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9 minutes ago, colts8718 said:

Next year DRAFT A QB I am sick of LUCK'S INJURY LIST:angry:

Yeah, that Manning guy was never hurt! Oh Wait!

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16 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

His left leg is his plant leg. That explains why he was limited in his throwing earlier in the offseason.

Uh....    the back leg is his plant leg.     His back leg is his right leg,   not his left leg.

 

Want to make sure we're talking apples to apples here...

 

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11 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

 

If the Colts were truly trying to hide something, in most cases, you would not even know about it. Furthermore, I checked the front and back of a ticket stub for a Colts game. It basically says you can get in to watch the game. That's it. Never been a season ticket holder but I doubt that the paperwork that comes with that promises any kind of disclosure either. 

 

 

 

For about 5th time in this thread - I don't think they are actively trying to hide or mislead. I do think they have a deeply flawed system and relationship to reporting important injuries, which leads to misleading/incomplete/contradictory information being pushed by different levels of the team and the result even if not something they were trying to do is to have a situation where the fans don't feel like they are getting good information by the team. 

 

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It appears that you and a great many others feel wronged, but from where I stand, it looks like your only recourse is to stop supporting? No, I am not being flippant. 

Huh? Stop supporting the team because their PR process is screwed up? Yeah... there are about a dozen more serious reasons I can think of for not supporting the team and they haven't made me not support it... so yeah... how about I just point out what I see wrong with it and hope at some point they will learn their lesson and correct the way they deal with those situations? 

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I am definitely concerned since he has had a lingering issue since April. Hoping that everything checks out just fine with knowing that Luck has been dealing with issues for the past few years now. 

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It makes sense he has what Ryan had and not MO. Because it’s a injury ballerinas get so having a calf strain could cause that bone to break off.  It also makes sense why the Achilles was ruled out. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has already had a procedure to fix it. Reich said the calf was the primary issue so he has had this awhile.

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13 minutes ago, Boiler_Colt said:

Yeah, that Manning guy was never hurt! Oh Wait!

Not that I think that the Colts should get ride of Luck but Peyton rarely did get hurt until his neck issue.  Before that outside of the pre-season in 2008 he missed one play in his Colts career due to injury.  

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Just now, stitches said:

So... it wasn't actually "flat out wrong. It's inaccurate, incorrect, false." Was it?

 

Yes, it was.

 

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Did our team's owner say Luck will be ready for game 1 or not?

 

No, he didn't. Not in the interview I'm thinking of. He said he was still hopeful that Luck would play in the opener. He didn't say he would play.

 

When Luck's shoulder operation was announced, in January 2017, Irsay said Luck would be ready for the start of the season. He likely believed that, given that the usual timeline for that recovery is 6-9 months. We all know how that went, but saying Irsay made a promise and didn't deliver on it is unreasonable.

 

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Do you count that as misleading the fanbase? Come on. Lets stop playing that nonsense game. It's OK to point out the few things the owner and new management are doing wrong. Here's what I want from the team in order to avoid future embarrassments(because the Luck situation was embarrassing for the team on national level in 2017)...

 

And I'm the guy who has no problem voicing disagreement with the team, when I disagree with them, and everyone here knows that. This is not one of those times.

 

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Stop saying things like "if the game was tomorrow he would play"... stop saying "he will be ready for game 1". Let the doctors talk about the major(be it severity or major as in QB or probowlers getting injured) injuries at every stage of recovery(that would include when the player gets injured, when he gets cleared to play, when there is a setback or new/changing information about the development of those injuries, etc). You don't have to have them there every day or even every week. Luck gets injured in April - let the doctor say his 2 cents. Luck develops this current condition, get the doctor in front of the media to give update with what the expected change of course is. Luck gets cleared for practice - let the doctor announce it and answer questions about it.

 

Apparently that would scratch your itch. But that's not up to you. (I'd add -- stop letting Irsay talk about injuries in live interviews, or at all; but he's the CEO of the team, and he can basically do what he wants. It's not up to me.) The team handling the situation differently than you would like does not represent a failure on the team's part. And bottom line, it wouldn't change the timeline on Luck's return, which is all that really matters here.

 

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Again... you are missing the point here. This is not about Luck's injury. Nothing here is about Luck's injury.

 

That's all it's about. Luck's injury and recovery is the only thing that actually matters here. The rest is peripheral nonsense.

 

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It will be whatever it is whether the media and fans are informed about it or not and he will play or not whether the fans are informed about it or not. This is not about THIS! This is about the trust you are losing by not having a clear and consistent message about your franchise QB's injury only one year after he missed a full season with another injury you failed to be clear and consistent about. And yes - EVERYONE IS SPECULATING. Can you guess WHY? The media and forums are filled with couch doctors and twitter doctors because THE COLTS DOCTORS are nowhere to be found and noone FROM the Colts is giving you good information you can trust. This is why everyone is speculating. I am shocked how this is surprising to anyone - when there is no good information from the team that's supposed to have the good information, there will be plenty of speculation from people who have no or bad information. 

 

The problem is the Colts seem content with that situation.

 

 

It's not surprising. It's expected, because we like to get information from aggregators and speculators, rather than from people who actually know what they're talking about and how to relate fact without injecting opinion and conjecture. It would be better to wait until accurate information is available, but people like to run with tiny little snippets instead.

 

And that's why I've mostly been absent on this topic -- the noise doesn't matter. Speculating, reporters asking thinly veiled questions ('Did the Kevin Durant injury influence how you're handling Luck?' is one of the lamest attempts to get information I've ever seen, and that's the only reason anyone is talking about Kevin Durant's injury in relation to Luck, because some reporter asked a weak question and the coach didn't summarily dismiss it), fans overreacting, and people in general throwing around nonsense is all a much bigger problem than anything the Colts have said or done. And that goes for the 2017 injury as well. 

 

People have decided to let the speculation from others who have bad or no information set the pace on this subject, and that's backward from the start. 

 

Just listen to what the team says, and stop trying to figure out what will happen. They said they're optimistic he'll be ready to play Week 1. That's not a guarantee that he'll play Week 1, because they don't know. We don't have to scout or project. Just wait and see. 

 

If you want to read between the lines, listen to what Reich said a week or so ago about Luck playing in the preseason; he probably will not. So most likely, we won't have clear information about Luck's Week 1 status until sometime between Monday and Sunday of Week 1. Stop holding your breath waiting for better information. You won't have any until then. 

 

And while it might lend to more accurate and consistent information if the team doctor relayed injury status, you're being naive if you think that would temper speculation, or prevent people from asking the coach/GM/player about injuries. Maybe you would feel better, but the result would be the same.

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Just now, GoColts8818 said:

That has nothing to do with talking about injuries.  There is no competitive advantage to be gained from knowing if another team did charity or not.  There is one to be gained if you know how bad players are hurt.  

This has very little to do with competitive advantage at this point in the pre-season... Teams are going to prep for Luck if there's any question. And even if Luck is hurt and JB plays, teams are probably better off for prepping for Luck. Reich isn't going to change play calling all that much. We might run it more with JB. Teams prepping for JB would likely key a bit more on rushing, and likely practice their Pick-6 dance a little more...

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8 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Uh....    the back leg is his plant leg.     His back leg is his right leg,   not his left leg.

 

Want to make sure we're talking apples to apples here...

 

 

My definition of "plant leg" is the leg that gets planted into the ground when the ball is thrown (or kicked). In a right handed passer, that's the left leg. It gets planted into the ground, weight gets shifted onto that leg and the hips rotate around that leg. 

 

220px-Andrew_Luck_vs_Browns_2014.jpg

 

Maybe you and the other poster see the back leg as the plant leg. That would be a new understanding for me.

 

Either way, it's a technicality that isn't important. Luck's left leg is critically important to his throwing motion.

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I just wish they would come clean with Luck's issue.  It really is as simple as that.  By not clearly addressing it, speculation runs rampant.

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21 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

I don't have any proof, but again, I'd bet... You have zero proof the other way. If you had to bet 1000 bucks (and would get the truth), would you say they just found out, or have known?

 

You're responsible for proving your claim; I'm not responsible for disproving it. You can't prove it, but you'd like to make strongly worded statements to lend credence to your viewpoint. 

 

I wouldn't bet on something like this. It's a pointless hypothetical. 

 

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Again, what people expect, and what they should expect, are very different. Teams want to come off as pro-fan, pro-city, charitable, honest, kind, etc.. They do a lot to build their image. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the team has tried to set an expectation that hey "we love our fans, and we'll look out for you and the city of Indy".... When they should really say "hey, we love fans to buy tickets, and we'll stay in the your city as long as we're profitable"..... I'm a realist. I don't expect them to tell me everything, and I know they are about $. But... there is a level of hypocrisy.

 

Teams cut players with no warning all the time. They aren't loyal to anything but their stated objectives -- win games, and make money, and that might be the other way around at times. I don't think that's hypocritical, I think it's obvious.

 

In the case of the Colts, they have made plenty of effort to be more accessible lately, to engage the fans, etc. Having an open training camp is a great example; the video productions over the last few months is another.

 

But they've never said they are going to provide injury information on the fans' timetable. They can't. 

 

You might call that hypocritical, but I think it's disingenuous for fans and media to act like a team being restrictive with injury info is evidence that the team doesn't really care about the fans. In this case, there is nothing the Colts could have said between April and August that would have changed the present reality of Luck's injury situation. That being the case, what they've said is largely irrelevant. 

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The plant leg is the back leg / same side you throw with. Both legs are important obviously, but the plant leg is easily the most important. it's much easier to play through a non-plant leg injury, especially if the injury has to do with the heel or ankle. your plant leg and heel is bearing most of the weight while the front leg can favor the ball of the foot.

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6 minutes ago, Coltsfan66 said:

I just wish they would come clean with Luck's issue.  It really is as simple as that.  By not clearly addressing it, speculation runs rampant.

The only way I give them a pass is if this was just found out.   If they would of just been straight forward there would be no freaking out. IF that ankle bone in the back broke off I wonder if that happened when he tried to practice at camp.

 

In this video the one guy says it’s actually very good that it is a bone and not a muscle.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

The only way I give them a pass is if this was just found out.   If they would of just been straight forward there would be no freaking out. IF that ankle bone in the back broke off I wonder if that happened when he tried to practice at camp.

 

In this video the one guy says it’s actually very good that it is a bone and not a muscle.

 

 

 

Hence my statement about coming clean about the issue.  Address it and move forward.

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Something else to note the national media isn’t freaking  out they are kind laughing. I think that says a lot on the seriousness of how bad this is.

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@SupermanI guess we have to agree to disagree about just how much Irsay misled the fans in 2017. I know about a week before game 1 he was projecting confidence he will play, which in retrospect was ridiculous since Luck didn't even try to return until more than a month after game 1. 

 

Ultimately whatever we say here the results would be the same. This is not a forum to change the course of history for the team and noone has those illusions. We are here to discuss stuff around the team. 

 

I personally don't expect Luck to play in preseason at all. And I don't expect us to know whether he will be ready to play week 1 until the injury report comes the week of the game. There isn't much to discuss about that injury since none of us are doctors and none of us have any information about what the injury actually is. This is part of the reason I want a Colts doctor to give that information rather than having diagnoses of 'minor calf strain' and 'ankle pain' and 'little bone issue' by a football player, a football coach and a businessman with a degree in broadcast journalism... 

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2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You're responsible for proving your claim; I'm not responsible for disproving it. You can't prove it, but you'd like to make strongly worded statements to lend credence to your viewpoint. 

 

I wouldn't bet on something like this. It's a pointless hypothetical. 

 

 

Teams cut players with no warning all the time. They aren't loyal to anything but their stated objectives -- win games, and make money, and that might be the other way around at times. I don't think that's hypocritical, I think it's obvious.

 

In the case of the Colts, they have made plenty of effort to be more accessible lately, to engage the fans, etc. Having an open training camp is a great example; the video productions over the last few months is another.

 

But they've never said they are going to provide injury information on the fans' timetable. They can't. 

 

You might call that hypocritical, but I think it's disingenuous for fans and media to act like a team being restrictive with injury info is evidence that the team doesn't really care about the fans. In this case, there is nothing the Colts could have said between April and August that would have changed the present reality of Luck's injury situation. That being the case, what they've said is largely irrelevant. 

Neither side can be proved unless there is full disclosure, hence the debate. I don't "trust" the FO to look out for fans, nor do I expect them to be transparent. I'm simply pointing out that the lack of transparency will lead fans to question things, and that the FO should expect that. 

 

If you think teams in pro sports don't hold info to benefit ticket sales, not sure what to tell you.

And yes, I think there's a lot of disingenuous hypocrisy. They preach community, love for fans, etc.. but it's all driven by $. And I expect it. It's just business, and all big companies do it. Just like my 15+ year stint for a Fortune 10 company. We preached love for customers, love for community, love for employees. It was all theater and PR. As you said, "that's how it is". 

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6 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

The plant leg is the back leg / same side you throw with. Both legs are important obviously, but the plant leg is easily the most important. it's much easier to play through a non-plant leg injury, especially if the injury has to do with the heel or ankle. your plant leg and heel is bearing most of the weight while the front leg can favor the ball of the foot.

 

I have never heard of the back leg being referred to as the plant leg. The front leg is the one literally planted into the ground when throwing, it's vulnerable through the throwing motion because it's planted. I've always referred to the front leg as the plant leg. Same for a kicker. 

 

And if I had to pick which leg to have a calf injury on, it wouldn't be the front leg. The torque on the front leg is dramatic.

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9 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I guess the colts are not going to address this today. Lol

 

You don't need to post every little thought you have on the issue in separate posts, it could be construed as bumping your own post.

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12 minutes ago, stitches said:

@SupermanI guess we have to agree to disagree about just how much Irsay misled the fans in 2017. I know about a week before game 1 he was projecting confidence he will play, which in retrospect was ridiculous since Luck didn't even try to return until more than a month after game 1. 

 

 

No, I'll give you that Irsay's comments were misleading. Intentionally? I don't know, but it was pretty obvious already that Luck wasn't going to play Week 1, which is why Irsay's comments were so outrageous.

 

But even then, he did not "promise" that Luck would play Week 1, which is what you said he did. The only thing close to that was his tweet after the operation, in January, which was not a promise. It was a somewhat definitive statement, but it was made on the basis of the info they had at the time. It was not intentionally misleading.

 

And between that tweet and Week 1, Luck, Ballard and Pagano were all very reserved, refused to give a timetable, and shut down any attempts to back them into a corner on when Luck would be back. So using that situation as evidence of the team being misleading doesn't work for me. 

 

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There isn't much to discuss about that injury since none of us are doctors and none of us have any information about what the injury actually is. This is part of the reason I want a Colts doctor to give that information rather than having diagnoses of 'minor calf strain' and 'ankle pain' and 'little bone issue' by a football player, a football coach and a businessman with a degree in broadcast journalism... 

 

Which would change nothing, because Luck would still have the same status, and reporters would still be asking him, Reich and everyone else about the injury. And the media and fans would still be sensationalizing. 

 

The only thing that would be different is that you, stitches, would find that response more palatable. 

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8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I have never heard of the back leg being referred to as the plant leg. The front leg is the one literally planted into the ground when throwing, it's vulnerable through the throwing motion because it's planted. I've always referred to the front leg as the plant leg. Same for a kicker. 

 

And if I had to pick which leg to have a calf injury on, it wouldn't be the front leg. The torque on the front leg is dramatic.

 

here's a blurb from NFL.com (Bills insider)

there's vids out there on coaching camps too

Quote

 

Fitz’s ankle injury on plant leg

By Chris Brown on December 21, 2009 – 2:00 pm
 

Ryan Fitzpatrick injured his right ankle in the game Sunday and that’s important that it’s his right ankle. For a quarterback when your plant leg is compromised by injury it can compromise throwing mechanics.

 

Quarterback coaches constantly talk about the importance of footwork. For right-handed QBs their right leg is their plant leg and the top of their drop. With an ankle sprain it’s difficult to stick that foot in the ground and then drive off that leg to put your hips into a throw. It’s the leg the generates the torque and power QBs put into their passes.

 

Knowing he suffered that injury before his touchdown pass to Lee Evans, I’m wondering if the injury was responsible for the lack of zip on the TD throw.

 

“It was one of those back shoulder (throws),” said Evans after the game. “But it kind of floated a little bit so I just tried to get my body in position to make the play.”

 

When QBs can’t push off that back leg, passes can sail high sometimes or throws can lose velocity. That TD play is a bang-bang play where Fitz is supposed to zip it to Evans back shoulder where the DB can’t get it. But it hung in the air more than we’re used to seeing from Fitzpatrick on those kinds of throws.

 

The Bills QB wasn’t available for comment Monday. We’ll see if we can get him to comment on whether the ankle affected his mechanics or not.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I have never heard of the back leg being referred to as the plant leg. The front leg is the one literally planted into the ground when throwing, it's vulnerable through the throwing motion because it's planted. I've always referred to the front leg as the plant leg. Same for a kicker. 

 

And if I had to pick which leg to have a calf injury on, it wouldn't be the front leg. The torque on the front leg is dramatic.

Yeah his left leg is the plant leg. Most of his power is coming from the right but the left leg is planted.

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13 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

Neither side can be proved unless there is full disclosure, hence the debate. I don't "trust" the FO to look out for fans, nor do I expect them to be transparent. I'm simply pointing out that the lack of transparency will lead fans to question things, and that the FO should expect that. 

 

If you think teams in pro sports don't hold info to benefit ticket sales, not sure what to tell you.

And yes, I think there's a lot of disingenuous hypocrisy. They preach community, love for fans, etc.. but it's all driven by $. And I expect it. It's just business, and all big companies do it. Just like my 15+ year stint for a Fortune 10 company. We preached love for customers, love for community, love for employees. It was all theater and PR. As you said, "that's how it is". 

 

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You don't get to say 'I bet the team knew that his injury was more serious and lied about it,' then require that someone else prove your claim is untrue. There's nothing wrong with questioning the team, but assuming they're lying and stating that as fact is another story.

 

In this case, it doesn't really matter whether they knew sooner or later, or what the story is. Unless it comes out that Luck's injury is so serious that there's no chance he can start the season, and the team knew that all along and lied about it, this is all just a bunch of noise. And that noise is because people in general are unsatisfied with being told 'we don't know,' even when that's the only honest answer that could possibly exist.

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2 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

 

here's a blurb from NFL.com (Bills insider)

there's vids out there on coaching camps too

 

 

There are articles referring to the front leg as the plant leg as well. It's not important either way. My point is that a calf injury in the front leg isn't anything to sneeze at.

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19 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

You don't need to post every little thought you have on the issue in separate posts, it could be construed as bumping your own post.

I will post what I feel like. You aren’t going to dictate what I post.

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2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I will post what I feel like. You aren’t going to dictate what I post.

bye GIF Then

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6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Which would change nothing, because Luck would still have the same status, and reporters would still be asking him, Reich and everyone else about the injury. And the media and fans would still be sensationalizing. 

 

The only thing that would be different is that you, stitches, would find that response more palatable. 

Maybe I'm naive, but I think it will help overall with the fanbase and not just with me. I think it will alleviate the anxiety and frustration by the fans in multiple of ways. Also, it would be trivial for Reich to just say - 'our doctor gave you the latest update, we don't have new information". Now because he's the main person who gives updates for injuries he feels obliged to say stuff about an injury he almost certainly doesn't understand to the level required to give the type of pronouncements he's been giving all off-season(he's the author of both "if he the game was tomorrow he will play" and "he will be ready for week 1" or something to that affect). 

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53 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

My definition of "plant leg" is the leg that gets planted into the ground when the ball is thrown (or kicked). In a right handed passer, that's the left leg. It gets planted into the ground, weight gets shifted onto that leg and the hips rotate around that leg. 

 

220px-Andrew_Luck_vs_Browns_2014.jpg

 

Maybe you and the other poster see the back leg as the plant leg. That would be a new understanding for me.

 

Either way, it's a technicality that isn't important. Luck's left leg is critically important to his throwing motion.

Both are critical 

 

  for OL it is the lead leg that is important(one reason I struggled with plays going right in our Wing T Offense

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7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You don't get to say 'I bet the team knew that his injury was more serious and lied about it,' then require that someone else prove your claim is untrue. There's nothing wrong with questioning the team, but assuming they're lying and stating that as fact is another story.

 

In this case, it doesn't really matter whether they knew sooner or later, or what the story is. Unless it comes out that Luck's injury is so serious that there's no chance he can start the season, and the team knew that all along and lied about it, this is all just a bunch of noise. And that noise is because people in general are unsatisfied with being told 'we don't know,' even when that's the only honest answer that could possibly exist.

I said "I'd bet", and "IMO". I did not state as fact. Don't put words in my mouth. I just followed my post back 4 steps. I said "I'd bet" several times..... And I asked you if you had to bet, what would you bet.... 

 

At the end of the day, it's simply my opinion. You're entitled to yours. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Both are critical 

 

  for OL it is the lead leg that is important(one reason I struggled with plays going right in our Wing T Offense

My thinking was like Superman's but both are important. I always thought the plant leg on a right handed QB was the left leg. I even learn something new sometimes lmao 

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3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Maybe I'm naive, but I think it will help overall with the fanbase and not just with me. I think it will alleviate the anxiety and frustration by the fans in multiple of ways. Also, it would be trivial for Reich to just say - 'our doctor gave you the latest update, we don't have new information". Now because he's the main person who gives updates for injuries he feels obliged to say stuff about an injury he almost certainly doesn't understand to the level required to give the type of pronouncements he's been giving all off-season(he's the author of both "if he the game was tomorrow he will play" and "he will be ready for week 1" or something to that affect). 

This is not about some fan in Princeton or wherever but about health of a man and success of a team 

     

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13 minutes ago, stitches said:

Maybe I'm naive, but I think it will help overall with the fanbase and not just with me. I think it will alleviate the anxiety and frustration by the fans in multiple of ways. Also, it would be trivial for Reich to just say - 'our doctor gave you the latest update, we don't have new information". Now because he's the main person who gives updates for injuries he feels obliged to say stuff about an injury he almost certainly doesn't understand to the level required to give the type of pronouncements he's been giving all off-season(he's the author of both "if he the game was tomorrow he will play" and "he will be ready for week 1" or something to that affect). 

This is exactly right. Because by not saying what it actually is people jump to the worst case scenario. It really is on lucks shoulders because he holds all the cards.

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8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My thinking was like Superman's but both are important. I always thought the plant leg on a right handed QB was the left leg. I even learn something new sometimes lmao 

Let me put on my coach’s hat

 

    Both legs can be considered plant legs since a QB plants one leg when they end their drop back and the other on the release

      

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2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Let me pout on my coach’s hat

 

    But legs can be considered plant legs since a QB plants one leg when they end their drop back and the other on the release

      

That is true. I posted earlier most of his power comes from the right side but in the end it is his left leg that is planted.

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is true. I posted earlier most of his power comes from the right side but in the end it is his left leg that is planted.

Sometimes it also depends on the type of Offense or type of QB

 

     In a Wing T Offense most of the passes are thrown with the QB on the move and therefore requires three points of pressure and it’s order depends on the rollout direction    

     There are also QBs like Pat Mahomes, Lamar Jackson who can throw cross bodied/wrong footed or even flat footed. This is one reason why RGIII and others have struggled after leg injuries 

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33 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There are articles referring to the front leg as the plant leg as well. It's not important either way. My point is that a calf injury in the front leg isn't anything to sneeze at.

Just FYI - I volunteered at FB camps in my younger days. For a WR, the front foot is often referred to as the plant leg/foot. For a QB, I've only heard of the back leg as the plant leg. A QB certainly plants his front foot in the throwing motion, but I think they call the back foot the plant foot because of the initial set up plant, prior to the motion. But like you said, doesn't matter. And like I said in the original post, injuries to either leg suck, but it's likely easier to play through front leg injuries, which was my point.

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38 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I will post what I feel like. You aren’t going to dictate what I post.

He’s a site moderator and he dang well can. 

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