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Shadow_Creek

Jordan Wilkins vs Spencer Ware

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I'm not even going to discuss Jonathan Williams because i believe he will be released after preseason and maybe be placed on the practice squad. However i do not see us carrying 4 running backs this season so i'm hoping that Jordan Wilkins brings his A game because i really like the effort he puts into his runs. Although that being said Spencer ware brings a different run style to our offense that i also admire so only time will tell which one comes out on top

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 If our top 4 RB's are healthy at final cut time i bet all of them are on the opening game roster. 
 
 

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This is a great question

 

A couple of thoughts

 

I always liked his vision (college and rookie season)

 

He has gained some weight 15ish pounds since the end of last year

(Hopefully it isnt latenight McDonalds)

 

He blocks well

 

He averaged 5.6 yards PC

 

He didnt shine when he started last year (Our OLINE wasnt together early)

 

He isnt explosive as Mack, but I believe his vision is a little better

 

I think he may get into more of the rotation this year

 

Ware and he will have a dogfight for playing time

 

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wilkins is probably going to be on the bubble, and we might have to cut a good player somewhere 

 

the CB, WR and TE groups are crowded too.  fwiw i think ajayi would be a good addition, and better than any RB on the team now besides mack

 

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11 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

wilkins is probably going to be on the bubble, and we might have to cut a good player somewhere 

 

the CB, WR and TE groups are crowded too.  fwiw i think ajayi would be a good addition, and better than any RB on the team now besides mack

 

I'm not on the Ajayi bandwagon. If he took what the defense gave him he'd be a more productive runner. Adam Gase grew tired of Ajayi's act and shipped him off while with the Phins. 

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34 minutes ago, Matthew Gilbert said:

I'm not on the Ajayi bandwagon. If he took what the defense gave him he'd be a more productive runner. Adam Gase grew tired of Ajayi's act and shipped him off while with the Phins. 

leaving miami was the best thing that has happened to him.  he left one of the worst teams in the league and got sent to the best at the time and won a super bowl.  the gase era in miami was a strange time. the team was terrible by most accounts, its kind of amazing they won as many games as they did 

 

 

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We will keep 4 RBs. It’s the TE/WR cuts that are going to be painful. Gonna lose a good player with that group. Can the team afford to go with 3 TEs and 6 WRs? Or will it be 4TEs and 5 WRs? 

What to watch: Doyle’s health and whether Campbell can grab the returner’s job from Rogers. 

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17 minutes ago, Hoose said:

We will keep 4 RBs. It’s the TE/WR cuts that are going to be painful. Gonna lose a good player with that group. Can the team afford to go with 3 TEs and 6 WRs? Or will it be 4TEs and 5 WRs? 

What to watch: Doyle’s health and whether Campbell can grab the returner’s job from Rogers. 

You took the words out of my keyboard. Agree 100%! :)

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Dont be surprised if Wilkins plays a big role in 2019 Mack and Ware have missed time.

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Obviously a lot can happen between now and the regular season, but I think Wilkins is on this team in September.  I think it will be more a question of is Spencer Ware going to show enough in camp and pre-season for the Colts to carry him as a 4th RB.  I think Wilkins is safe whether they keep 3 or 4 RBs.  

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I believe Wilkins will beat out Ware and force to FO's hand to choose between Ware and a 4th TE or 6th WR.

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I have listened to Ballard and I think he genuinely believes Williams has a legit shot to make it.  When the last cuts come, I think a surprise cut is Ware.

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I'd bet a pretty decent sum of cash that we keep 4. 

Most teams in the league carry 4 on their 53 man roster.

 

I see Mack as the obvious RB1, Hines as the APB, Ware as the short yardage and RZ guy, and Wilkins as Mack's back up. Keep in mind that Wilkins played 30+% of special teams downs last year, and it wasn't as a return guy. RBs make great special teams guys.

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With the depth we have at cornerback and pass rushers I don't see us keeping 4 runningbacks

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I'm intrigued with both Wilkins being in his 2nd NFL season and

Ware with his size and quickness.

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On 7/12/2019 at 10:36 AM, MikeCurtis said:

This is a great question

 

A couple of thoughts

 

I always liked his vision (college and rookie season)

 

He has gained some weight 15ish pounds since the end of last year

(Hopefully it isnt latenight McDonalds)

 

He blocks well

 

He averaged 5.6 yards PC

 

He didnt shine when he started last year (Our OLINE wasnt together early)

 

He isnt explosive as Mack, but I believe his vision is a little better

 

I think he may get into more of the rotation this year

 

Ware and he will have a dogfight for playing time

 

Where did you hear that he gained 15 lbs? That would put him over 230 if last years weight was correct. Hard for me to imagine him being able to carry that much weight and be able to maintain the shortage of speed he had at 216.

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10 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

Where did you hear that he gained 15 lbs? That would put him over 230 if last years weight was correct. Hard for me to imagine him being able to carry that much weight and be able to maintain the shortage of speed he had at 216.

He was listed at 201 on his draft day

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On 7/14/2019 at 7:01 AM, MikeCurtis said:

He was listed at 201 on his draft day

His official combine weight was 216lbs

 

201/216/230 it doesn't matter.  I'm not a fan of Wilkins, most of the time he doesn't run hard and when he does run hard he fumbles.

 

But he does have good speed and he will gain all the yards the oline gives him, but he's not going to gain a lot of extra yards or yards after contact. 

 

If Ware is the Ware of 2016 then I think he will beat out Wilkins.  I think though that injuries will have caught up with him though and he won't be the Ware of 2016.

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If Wilkins has a fumble or two in the pre-season, there’s a possibility he could be cut. Fumbles are what cost him snaps last year. Realistically we probably want to keep both of them though.

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I can see Wilkins having an even increased role in 2019, but I will not be shocked if he loose his roster spot to Williams. This will be an interesting battle in the TC. I hope injury will not be a determining factor.

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I guess it's going to depend on injuries and how many WR and TE's the Colts want to have on the opening day roster. I rather roll with 4 RB's and 3 TE's and stash someone like Ross Travis on the PS.

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I think Wilkins is better than what he gets credit for. 

 

Maybe it was a fumble or two that put him in the "doghouse" per se, but I think he will show up and put in work this year. 

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5 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

I think Wilkins is better than what he gets credit for. 

 

Maybe it was a fumble or two that put him in the "doghouse" per se, but I think he will show up and put in work this year. 

 

If he fixes the fumbling issue he's a pretty good back actually.  In fact even though Wilkins isn't that big he's a bit bigger than Mack and they would be a tandem of the power back and the speed back.  

 

But he's got to fix the fumbling issue.

 

If he doesn't than Ware it is.

 

I think we'll likely keep 4 backs on the roster.  Realistically you want to have 3 available to you in the game and RB's are a high injury position that you should probably keep a good 4th one on the roster.  

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On 7/12/2019 at 7:31 AM, Shadow_Creek said:

I'm not even going to discuss Jonathan Williams because i believe he will be released after preseason and maybe be placed on the practice squad. However i do not see us carrying 4 running backs this season so i'm hoping that Jordan Wilkins brings his A game because i really like the effort he puts into his runs. Although that being said Spencer ware brings a different run style to our offense that i also admire so only time will tell which one comes out on top

 

We had 4 backs on our final roster last year each of the past 3 years, so I think there's a good shot of that trend continuing.  Hines' receiving abilities may allow for him to be used some in the slot, making a WR more expendable at cut time.  Also, Mack and Ware have both missed good chunks of time with injuries, which is one more argument to keep 4 for depth purposes.  

 

On 7/12/2019 at 8:29 PM, jskinnz said:

I have listened to Ballard and I think he genuinely believes Williams has a legit shot to make it.  When the last cuts come, I think a surprise cut is Ware.

 

I can't find the exact interview, but I also think Ballard really thinks Williams can be a good player in this league.  Ballard was with KC when Ware was brought over there, so he has some connection with him... doesn't mean he'll keep him, but that's the major advantage I think Ware may have over Williams (plus he's had a few very productive seasons).  

 

On 7/15/2019 at 3:33 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

His official combine weight was 216lbs

 

201/216/230 it doesn't matter.  I'm not a fan of Wilkins, most of the time he doesn't run hard and when he does run hard he fumbles.

 

But he does have good speed and he will gain all the yards the oline gives him, but he's not going to gain a lot of extra yards or yards after contact. 

 

If Ware is the Ware of 2016 then I think he will beat out Wilkins.  I think though that injuries will have caught up with him though and he won't be the Ware of 2016.

 

I think his fumbles were more a result of how he was carrying the ball.  This is a fundamental thing which can be coached, so I'm sure they've been working with him a lot on it.  He saw significant reduction in playing time after his second fumble last year against Miami.  My guess is the coaches didn't think he was changing his style well enough since his first fumble in NE and needed time to work on it in practice before trusting him in a game again.  He saw touches again in week 17 and in the playoffs after having only 2 touches in a 4 week span after his Miami fumble.

 

He had 60 regular season carries and 16 receptions (76 total touches) and fumbled just 2x, which is ~2% of his touches.  Ware had 4 fumbles on 247 touches in 2016, or 1.6% fumble rate.... any fumbles are too much, but it's not like Wilkins has a major fumbling issue.  TY fumbled 2 times with 57 touches in 2017, a 3.5% fumble rate and nobody complained much about it.

 

I do agree with you, that for his size, Wilkins runs pretty soft.  Hopefully that's a coachable thing as well, but who knows.  Where Wilkins has the advantage over Ware/Williams is his ability to play well on STs (he returned a kick in the playoffs, but he was more used on STs as a non-returner..... there's value to that).

 

 

 

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Looks like Mr. Wilkins has a couple free weeks to show his wares (pun intended) while Mr. Spencer is sitting in the hot tub!??!

 

I'm still of the opinion we roll with Mack, Wilkins and Himes like last year! 

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52 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Looks like Mr. Wilkins has a couple free weeks to show his wares (pun intended) while Mr. Spencer is sitting in the hot tub!??!

 

I'm still of the opinion we roll with Mack, Wilkins and Himes like last year! 

I think we roll with 4, and it's not a Wilkins/Ware conversation. 

Wilkins is Mack's every down backup, called on when Mack is injured and perhaps late in games. Ware will be more of the short yardage back. Hines is our hybrid/APB. Williams is likely the odd man out.

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10 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

Looks like Mr. Wilkins has a couple free weeks to show his wares (pun intended) while Mr. Spencer is sitting in the hot tub!??!

 

I'm still of the opinion we roll with Mack, Wilkins and Himes like last year! 

Nice pun. :)

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    Isn’t it great (in one sense), that in a few areas:   (WR,DL,RB and Secondary), the Colts will be cutting some players that probably would have started in previous years, or at least made the team?

      My only concern is that some of these guys might end up in NE and I’d hate to help those sonsa #%*^ !

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11 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

I think we roll with 4, and it's not a Wilkins/Ware conversation. 

Wilkins is Mack's every down backup, called on when Mack is injured and perhaps late in games. Ware will be more of the short yardage back. Hines is our hybrid/APB. Williams is likely the odd man out.

I could see that happening too. Guess we'll see who performs lights out elsewhere (TE, WR) and see if they want the extra playmaker in one of those two spots?

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On 7/22/2019 at 4:14 PM, CurBeatElite said:

I think his fumbles were more a result of how he was carrying the ball. 

Yes, when he runs hard he loses his fundamentals.

On 7/22/2019 at 4:14 PM, CurBeatElite said:

 

This is a fundamental thing which can be coached, so I'm sure they've been working with him a lot on it. 

And I'm guessing his college coaches worked on those fundamentals and his high school coaches worked on those fundamentals...

 

On 7/22/2019 at 4:14 PM, CurBeatElite said:

 

He saw significant reduction in playing time after his second fumble last year against Miami.  My guess is the coaches didn't think he was changing his style well enough since his first fumble in NE and needed time to work on it in practice before trusting him in a game again.  He saw touches again in week 17 and in the playoffs after having only 2 touches in a 4 week span after his Miami fumble.

 

He had 60 regular season carries and 16 receptions (76 total touches) and fumbled just 2x, which is ~2% of his touches.  Ware had 4 fumbles on 247 touches in 2016, or 1.6% fumble rate.... any fumbles are too much, but it's not like Wilkins has a major fumbling issue.  TY fumbled 2 times with 57 touches in 2017, a 3.5% fumble rate and nobody complained much about it.

You are playing a little loose with the numbers to make it appear better.  Technically, 2 of 76 is approximately 2%.  Accurately it is 2.63% which is a significant increase over 1.6%.

 

You cannot really compare a WRs fumble rate to a RB for one and two, if Hilton consistently fumbled at a rate of 3.5% then people would complain but he doesn't.  You had to go back 2 years to make this point, he had 0 fumbles in 76 touches in 2018 and 6 in 516 touches for a 1.16 fumble percentage.

 

I will end this with, I am sure Wilkins will improve over last year and I don't think he's horrible, he has good quickness and vision and if the hole is there he will hit and get as many yards as possible before contact.  I just think he is one of those looks like Tarzan runs like Jane type players that are a dime a dozen in the NFL.  A 2016 Ware is a better option, a 2017, 2018 Ware is not.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

I could see that happening too. Guess we'll see who performs lights out elsewhere (TE, WR) and see if they want the extra playmaker in one of those two spots?

Purely my opinion, but keeping 4 RBs, and even 6 WRs on top of that would be easy. We can keep less OL and TE this year given the current status. OL is in a much, much better place this year (assuming healthy holds out). Positions are set, and no musical chairs like the first 5-6 games last year. TE too (we have a clear top 3).

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Imo, Wilkins has elite vision and that’s it. He needs to improve in all other areas to be what we need.

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Am I missing something or is 5.6 yards per carry a lousy average? 

Let's just give him and Hines room to grow in their 2nd year

in the NFL and see what happens.

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18 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Purely my opinion, but keeping 4 RBs, and even 6 WRs on top of that would be easy. We can keep less OL and TE this year given the current status. OL is in a much, much better place this year (assuming healthy holds out). Positions are set, and no musical chairs like the first 5-6 games last year. TE too (we have a clear top 3).

I believe that too.....but Ballard keeps harping on 10 lineman. I would go eight with the versatility we have.

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I can't see Ballard cutting Wilkins for Ware.

 

Either we go with 4 or Ware will probably be released.

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5 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

I believe that too.....but Ballard keeps harping on 10 lineman. I would go eight with the versatility we have.

It's going to be interesting. Even if we keep 10 OL, that doesn't mean we can't keep both 4 RBs and even 6 WRs. Week 17 depth chart had 10 OL, 2 QBs, 6 WRs, 3 TEs, and 4 RBs. That's still only 25 (less than half) of the 53. Take out the (3) LS, Punter, and Kicker, and that's perfect O vs D balance. 

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On 7/25/2019 at 10:28 AM, Coffeedrinker said:

Yes, when he runs hard he loses his fundamentals.

And I'm guessing his college coaches worked on those fundamentals and his high school coaches worked on those fundamentals...

 

You are playing a little loose with the numbers to make it appear better.  Technically, 2 of 76 is approximately 2%.  Accurately it is 2.63% which is a significant increase over 1.6%.

 

You cannot really compare a WRs fumble rate to a RB for one and two, if Hilton consistently fumbled at a rate of 3.5% then people would complain but he doesn't.  You had to go back 2 years to make this point, he had 0 fumbles in 76 touches in 2018 and 6 in 516 touches for a 1.16 fumble percentage.

 

I will end this with, I am sure Wilkins will improve over last year and I don't think he's horrible, he has good quickness and vision and if the hole is there he will hit and get as many yards as possible before contact.  I just think he is one of those looks like Tarzan runs like Jane type players that are a dime a dozen in the NFL.  A 2016 Ware is a better option, a 2017, 2018 Ware is not.

 

 

 

Ware is already hurt prior to the season, which doesn't look good for him after not playing a full season the past 2 years.

 

Yes, Wilkins' problems have been fundamental ones.  I think they can still be worked on and fixed.  Physically, he's very talented and he'll have to use his physical traits plus fundamentals to make a major improvement from last year.  That said, the NFL is a much different game than highschool or college.  There is a lot you can mask when you're a freak athlete at those levels like Wilkins was... in the NFL, they're all freaks and even the slightest mess up with fundamentals is exposed.  

 

Ballard says fairly often that he expects our coaches to develop our players, and I think he's made it very clear that he'll give some time for young guys to learn and grow and play how he/the coaches want them to in our system.  I expect Wilkins will have fixed his fundamental problems for the most part this offseason and we'll see him as a productive member of our offense.

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The RB have all looked good. Ware better hope he isn’t out to long 

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Ware has NFL experience over Wilkins, but Wilkins is in his second year under Reich's offense. Ware being sidelined during camp doesn't help his case at all. Gonna be a close call.

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   Surprise!   Then the second link was one of my own making.    I listed every 1st round WR since Luck came into the league in 2012.  That's 7 years.   The last 7 years.   I put into bold each 1st Round WR who was clearly a success.   It came to 41%.   It also showed how few WR's have been taken in the last few drafts.   That's the NFL talking, in case you weren't paying attention.    You didn't dispute one WR.    Not one.   But you called it cherry picking.   Clearly you don't know how to use that expression correctly.    And now you throw out a list of criteria as if you're making the rules here.   Here's another free tip.   You're not.   Never have.   I'm not surprised you don't recognize the facts I put into posts.   You don't use them.   You're all about the opinion.   Most posters here are.   Because that means every single poster can simply say.....    "I'm entitled to my opinion."    Yes, they are.   Everyone is,  even you, who has no need for facts.    But what you're not entitled to is your own facts.    Just like you stated Funchess was a terrible signing based on your facts,  and it never even occured to you that Ballard and Reich had other facts that showed DF could be useful to us.    You actually thought you knew more than they did?!?    Again, unbelieveable.   You had no facts to support your nonsense about Reich being a poor play caller.   You had one game.   And I called you on it.   You've been doing a very bad back-peddle ever since,  but that's your view, with no facts to support it.   In fact all the facts support the exact opposite view.   Yet, you still try to claim victory.   It's so intellectually dishonest that it's nauseating.   And so I observed,  that with almost nothing to base it on,  you thought Willis has inconsistancies.    Thanks, Capt. Obvious.    Tomorrow will likely be sunny during the day,  turning to widely scattered darkness at night.    Anymore obvious insights?   Funny, how you now publicly call for me to ignore your posts,  when a few days ago,  in a thread I was barely even in,  you took a completely uncalled for shot at me.    Or does the phrase "legend in his own mind" not mean anything to you?      Bottom line....    you can dish it out,  especially when you think no one is looking.....   but you can't take it.   Glass ego.   I call a fraud a fraud.   
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