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runthepost

What would you give up for Bobby Wagner?

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Contract year and is 29 I believe, has been relatively heathy his whole career, and one of the best defenders in the league.. Realistically the colts won’t make this trade since we are building through the draft but if you’re a gm what would you give up?

 

I say a 3rd at most 

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Personally, I wouldn’t give up anything. Like you said, he’s older at 29, close to 30, and most LBs start to die down a bit in their early to mid 30s. This Colts defense, on the other hand, is built young with the only old guys being mainly guys who are here to teach and mentor younger guys. BWags, however amazing he is, would take playing time from other young LBs for us, and also be an expensive add at that. Fantastic player, not a fit for the team based on age and price, plus the amazing depth we already have

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Were young and tough right now. I say keep developing whats on board. 

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We’ve invested in Walker.   He may not be great, but he’s certainly average or somewhat better than.

 

We just invested heavily with draft picks at linebacker.   Okereke and Speed.   There’s no need to invest more for Wagner. 

 

I’m not saying Wagner isn’t better.   But for how long?   We’re building for the future.  Trying to create a long window of opportunity.   Wagner doesn’t fit the profile.  

 

Sorry....     I’d pass.  

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I'd give up beer for a month.

 

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the question.

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12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

We’ve invested in Walker.   He may not be great, but he’s certainly average or somewhat better than.

 

We just invested heavily with draft picks at linebacker.   Okereke and Speed.   There’s no need to invest more for Wagner. 

 

I’m not saying Wagner isn’t better.   But for how long?   We’re building for the future.  Trying to create a long window of opportunity.   Wagner doesn’t fit the profile.  

 

Sorry....     I’d pass.  

Yup. This team’s future is in its draft picks. The Colts invested heavily in the LB position this year. Now they have to find out what they have. 

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I wouldn't bat an eye at giving a first for an all pro in the middle of the D. 

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On 7/12/2019 at 5:33 PM, NewColtsFan said:

We’ve invested in Walker.   He may not be great, but he’s certainly average or somewhat better than.

 

We just invested heavily with draft picks at linebacker.   Okereke and Speed.   There’s no need to invest more for Wagner. 

 

I’m not saying Wagner isn’t better.   But for how long?   We’re building for the future.  Trying to create a long window of opportunity.   Wagner doesn’t fit the profile.  

 

Sorry....     I’d pass.  

 

Not sure why you're confused. He'd instantly give us the best LB corps in the league. He's entering his age 29 season and there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left. 

 

Invested in Walker?  He's a 5th rd pick. Speed?  Another 5th. These are depth picks typically, not investments. Okereke was an investment in the future but he doesn't change your actions in regards to the best player in the league at his position. 

 

Wagner would instantly become one of the top 2-3 players on the team. 

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4 hours ago, wig said:

 

Not sure why you're confused. He'd instantly give us the best LB corps in the league. He's entering his age 29 season and there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left. 

 

Invested in Walker?  He's a 5th rd pick. Speed?  Another 5th. These are depth picks typically, not investments. Okereke was an investment in the future but he doesn't change your actions in regards to the best player in the league at his position. 

 

Wagner would instantly become one of the top 2-3 players on the team. 

 

Look at your line I put into bold...      "there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left."

 

Holy Cow.    No reason?     How about because very few linebackers,  especially middle linebackers with all the pounding they take,  last to age 33-34 playing elite football.    It just rarely  happens.

 

There may be an exception to the rule.   But that's it.    Most times,  the level of play falls off pretty dramatically.

 

Do you see Chris Ballard giving up a 2nd round pick or more to get Wagner?    I don't.   After what you've seen from Chris Ballard for two and a half years,  I'm not sure why you'd think that?

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I don't want to use resources on another linebacker, so in order for me to pull the trigger, it would have to be a huge steal. I'd do a 2nd rounder

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A 5th round pick and a ham sandwich.  With extra mayo.

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22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Look at your line I put into bold...      "there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left."

 

Holy Cow.    No reason?     How about because very few linebackers,  especially middle linebackers with all the pounding they take,  last to age 33-34 playing elite football.    It just rarely  happens.

 

There may be an exception to the rule.   But that's it.    Most times,  the level of play falls off pretty dramatically.

 

Do you see Chris Ballard giving up a 2nd round pick or more to get Wagner?    I don't.   After what you've seen from Chris Ballard for two and a half years,  I'm not sure why you'd think that?

 

Who are these guys that played at the level of Wagner, had no injury history and fell off before then?  

 

The question is what would give, not what I think CB would do.  Maybe you misread. I think there's a lot of good talent and depth on the team. If I could get a player of Wagner's level for a single pick I'd do it. 

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2 hours ago, wig said:

 

Who are these guys that played at the level of Wagner, had no injury history and fell off before then?  

 

The question is what would give, not what I think CB would do.  Maybe you misread. I think there's a lot of good talent and depth on the team. If I could get a player of Wagner's level for a single pick I'd do it. 

 

I didn’t misread the scenario...    I understood it as you did.   What would you or I do to get Bobby Wagner?

 

I know it wasn’t about what would Chris Ballard do? 

 

But I brought up Ballard because my view is....   why would I do something that I don’t think Chris Ballard would ever do?    If Ballard wouldn’t do it, I doubt I’d want to.

 

I wanted Chris Ballard to sign Gerald McCoy.   I posted repeatedly I hoped we’d sign him.   But when we didn’t,  I didn’t say anything negative about Ballard.   I believe in him and his vision.   

 

Who knows?   Maybe Ballard (or Dodds) called Seattle and inquired what Seattle would want in a trade and that ended the conversation.   I wouldn’t rule out that we inquired.  Only that it didn’t go anywhere. 

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If he was a rookie, a 1st and a 3rd. Now at 29?   5th round pick and that still feels like over paying. He wouldn’t be the player that sends the Colts over the top.  

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2 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

If he was a rookie, a 1st and a 3rd. Now at 29?   5th round pick and that still feels like over paying. He wouldn’t be the player that sends the Colts over the top.  

 

A 5th round pick is an overpay for a 29 year-old All-Pro MLB? 

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I didn’t misread the scenario...    I understood it as you did.   What would you or I do to get Bobby Wagner?

 

I know it wasn’t about what would Chris Ballard do? 

 

But I brought up Ballard because my view is....   why would I do something that I don’t think Chris Ballard would ever do?    If Ballard wouldn’t do it, I doubt I’d want to.

 

I wanted Chris Ballard to sign Gerald McCoy.   I posted repeatedly I hoped we’d sign him.   But when we didn’t,  I didn’t say anything negative about Ballard.   I believe in him and his vision.   

 

Who knows?   Maybe Ballard (or Dodds) called Seattle and inquired what Seattle would want in a trade and that ended the conversation.   I wouldn’t rule out that we inquired.  Only that it didn’t go anywhere. 

 

Uh, why would I want to do something Ballard wouldn't? Because I have an opinion?  Same reason there is debate in the scouting dept, different opinions are healthy.   I don't know where you came up with someone saying something negative about anyone. 

 

Still waiting on that list you can't provide. 

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13 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

A 5th round pick is an overpay for a 29 year-old All-Pro MLB? 

 

He isn't just an All Pro, it's 5 straight now and he's a future HOFer.

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6 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

A 5th round pick is an overpay for a 29 year-old All-Pro MLB? 

 

For his salary and how it would prevent us from keeping our own, yes it’s an overpay.  I still think we are two years away before acquiring a player of his caliber would truly be the piece we need.  I agree he is outstanding but Walker and our prospects are also good.  30 is the magic number when guys decline.  Wagner May beat the odds for awhile but he may not.  Rather stay the course and not give up draft capital at this time.  When we are 1-2 players away from the SB, it may be different. 

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6 hours ago, wig said:

 

Uh, why would I want to do something Ballard wouldn't? Because I have an opinion?  Same reason there is debate in the scouting dept, different opinions are healthy.   I don't know where you came up with someone saying something negative about anyone. 

 

Still waiting on that list you can't provide. 

Oatience, grasshopper.   Lists take time.  People have lives.    The list is coming.

 

Maybe while you’re waiting you’ll provide a list that backs up your claim?

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14 hours ago, wig said:

 

He isn't just an All Pro, it's 5 straight now and he's a future HOFer.

 

Question for you....

 

What's your criteria here?    Future Hall of Famer?     All Pro?     Pro Bowls?

 

I don't want to start listing names and you have say that's not the level of player you were thinking of.     Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.     Apples to apples.

 

But remember,  you were the one who claimed Wagner should easily have 5 more years of ELITE level play.    

 

When you tell me what level we're talking about,  I'll be happy to give you a list.

 

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9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Question for you....

 

What's your criteria here?    Future Hall of Famer?     All Pro?     Pro Bowls?

 

I don't want to start listing names and you have say that's not the level of player you were thinking of.     Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.     Apples to apples.

 

But remember,  you were the one who claimed Wagner should easily have 5 more years of ELITE level play.    

 

When you tell me what level we're talking about,  I'll be happy to give you a list.

 

 

I'll make it easy on you. Just list the best LBs to stop playing at a high level between 29 and 33. 

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17 hours ago, wig said:

 

I'll make it easy on you. Just list the best LBs to stop playing at a high level between 29 and 33. 

 

OK....    here we go....    my list is not to be taken as complete,  but it's as much as I could find after doing a number of searches...   I'm sure I may have missed a player here or there...

 

I used the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a reference.    I tried not to go back too far.   So, I won't have guys like Butkus, or Nitzchke or Nobis...     they didn't have good medical, training, nutrition, etc.

 

So,  I went mostly with guys who have played since 2000...    but there are some who were drafted in the mid-90's and whose career extended into the 2000's....    This list is not ALL linebackers, just most of the top ones.    I did not include outside linebackers.    But I can make another list if you like..

 

Middle or Inside Backers.

 

1.  Patrick Willis      

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillPa98.htm

2.  Navarro Bowman

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BowmNa99.htm

3.  Jarrod Mayo

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayoJe99.htm

4.  Brian Urlacher

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UrlaBr00.htm

5.  Sean Lee

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeexSe99.htm

6.  Jon Beason

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeasJo99.htm

7.  Brian Cushing

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CushBr99.htm

8.  Jonathon Vilma

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VilmJo99.htm

9.  DQWell Jackson

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackDQ20.htm

10.   Bart Scott

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotBa20.htm

11.   David Harris

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrDa99.htm

12.   Keith Bullock

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BullKe00.htm

 

 

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16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

OK....    here we go....    my list is not to be taken as complete,  but it's as much as I could find after doing a number of searches...   I'm sure I may have missed a player here or there...

 

I used the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a reference.    I tried not to go back too far.   So, I won't have guys like Butkus, or Nitzchke or Nobis...     they didn't have good medical, training, nutrition, etc.

 

So,  I went mostly with guys who have played since 2000...    but there are some who were drafted in the mid-90's and whose career extended into the 2000's....    This list is not ALL linebackers, just most of the top ones.    I did not include outside linebackers.    But I can make another list if you like..

 

Middle or Inside Backers.

 

1.  Patrick Willis      

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillPa98.htm

2.  Navarro Bowman

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BowmNa99.htm

3.  Jarrod Mayo

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayoJe99.htm

4.  Brian Urlacher

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UrlaBr00.htm

5.  Sean Lee

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeexSe99.htm

6.  Jon Beason

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeasJo99.htm

7.  Brian Cushing

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CushBr99.htm

8.  Jonathon Vilma

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VilmJo99.htm

9.  DQWell Jackson

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackDQ20.htm

10.   Bart Scott

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotBa20.htm

11.   David Harris

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrDa99.htm

12.   Keith Bullock

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BullKe00.htm

 

 

 

So out of this list: 

 

Willis retired before he had to

 

Bowman had really nasty injuries that had nothing to do with age

 

Mayo isn't in the same conversation

 

Urlacher was an AP 4 years older than Wagner is now

 

Lee has been injured a ton throughout his career

 

Nobody else should be in the conversation in regards to Wagner at any point in their careers. 

 

On the other hand, Ray Lewis, Thomas Davis, Derrick Thomas, London Fletcher, and Urlacher were all pros 4 seasons from the age Wagner is now. 

 

Maybe I should have said 4 years of elite play? 

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I was shocked to see Wagner rated 99 overall in Madden.

Darius Leonard should've been 99. Lol. jk.

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On 7/19/2019 at 6:04 PM, wig said:

 

So out of this list: 

 

Willis retired before he had to

Willis retired due to injury.   Feet and toes.    Don't take my word for it.   Take his. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/12454230/patrick-willis-san-francisco-49ers-retires

 

On 7/19/2019 at 6:04 PM, wig said:

Bowman had really nasty injuries that had nothing to do with age

You're correct.    Bowman's injuries had nothing to do with age.   It had to do with playing the game of football.   It's a violent game.    And the longer you play, especially in a violent position.  the greater the chance of injury.    Bowman got badly injured.

 

Mayo isn't in the same conversation

Says you.    In New England, they think if not for injury,  Mayo ends his career in the Hall of Fame.    His stats and accomplishments stack up favorably.

 

Urlacher was an AP 4 years older than Wagner is now

Urlacher had two elite years,  two good years,  and one terrible year.   That's not "5 elite years" which was YOUR original point.

 

On 7/19/2019 at 6:04 PM, wig said:

Lee has been injured a ton throughout his career

Because football is a violent game.

 

Nobody else should be in the conversation in regards to Wagner at any point in their careers. 

Not sure why you think that playing 7 years with no injuries somehow guarantees that you won't get injured within the next 5 years.   Being that good doesn't somehow guarantee that you won't get hurt in the 5-year time frame you listed.

Injuries take a toll.   Performance suffers.

 

On the other hand, Ray Lewis, Thomas Davis, Derrick Thomas, London Fletcher, and Urlacher were all pros 4 seasons from the age Wagner is now. 

 

Maybe I should have said 4 years of elite play? 

 

Not sure why you so casually dismiss the other players.   They were only some of the best inside or middle linebackers of their generation?     They got hurt,  not because they weren't great players,  but because they play football.   This is a strange argument you're attempting to make.   All 12 linebackers I listed did not meet the criteria you laid out.   You asked for a list,  I gave it to you.    

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On 7/11/2019 at 10:19 PM, runthepost said:

Contract year and is 29 I believe, has been relatively heathy his whole career, and one of the best defenders in the league.. Realistically the colts won’t make this trade since we are building through the draft but if you’re a gm what would you give up?

 

I say a 3rd at most 

Whats the name of our current ILB..Walker, send em' to seattle.

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On 8/16/2019 at 4:54 PM, Rackeen305 said:

Whats the name of our current ILB..Walker, send em' to seattle.

Your pipe dreams are endless

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On 7/12/2019 at 5:50 PM, coltsva said:

I'd give up beer for a month.

 

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the question.

Wow...that is giving up a lot!

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   CBE.    I criticized his post and he still gave me a like.    He know while we may not agree,  he knows I'm not trying to pound him.   I'm  trying to be as honest and factual as I can.    No wonder you can't see for yourself.   What triggered me, was your latest attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about.   You judged Willis on half of the first pre-season game.    That's all you've got.    That's it.   Doesn't even occur to you that that is.....   NOTHING!    Hello?    And you present it like it should be taken seriously,  when it should be laughed at.    Goodness gracious, you want to go back to the media draft comparison?    I was hoping for your sake that you wouldn't.    But since you insist.     Did you ever really look at that poll?   Seriously,  did you look at the four category breakdown?    Did you see what was actually involved?    If you did,  you shouldn't have been crowing about it.    First,  what I care about from guys like Kiper and McShay and Jeremiah and others isn't just the first round.   My  momma can do a decent job on the first round, and she's been dead for nearly 30 years!    I care about their view on ALL ROUNDS.   And your survey was only about the first round.   That's it.   There were four categories.    In three of them,  the leader got no more than 50%.   That's it.   The best person in three of the four categories scored no more than 50 percent.   When the top guy is scoring no more than 50 percent and everyone else is close behind,  then no one really knows anything.    And the one category that the winner did well in --- one category --- he scored in the 90's.   And everyone else was right behind him.    So, most everyone did well in ONE OUT OF THE FOUR categories.   Big stinking deal.    I tried to tell you this silly survey didn't support what you believed but you wouldn't listen.   No surprise there.  All you cared about the results.   The fatal flaw.     Finally,  without a single fact,  you offered this opinion in that post.    I remember it like it was yesterday,  that your new age guys were doing a better job than the more traditional scouts.   Based on one poll.   One poll of one round.    And you said the older guys like Kiper and company were resting on their laurels and not working as hard.   Nope, the old guys were covering all seven rounds.    Most of your guys,  covering one round.   You have no facts to support that, but that's your view.    When logic and common sense would tell you that the guys I prefer make a ton more money and have their reputation at stake.    They have more to lose.    There's no way they're resting on anything.    But you'll say ANYTHING to try and prove a point.   There's no argument you won't twist to try to win an argument, no matter how foolish the argument is.   I've told you publicly and privately,  you're not interested in honest debate.   You're the least honest poster here.  You're only interested in winning and you'll do anything, say anything to do that.      As to the WR study.    You got crushed.   I'm talking about a bank safe fell on you and your response was to talk about cherry picking stats.    Either English is a second language or you don't know the meaning of the words.     I made two links for you.    One was almost identical to yours.    Yours covered 25 years dating back to a time when passing rules were dramatically different so comparing a receiver from 1990 to one from 2018 was silly.   We're playig a different game now.    My first link covered 20 years from 1995 to 2014 .   There was great over-lap in the two studies.  But the conclusions were entirely different.   The only reason I used it was your post said roughly 60% percent of 1st Round WR's were successes.    Mine said roughly 40%.   Guess which one you preferred?    Surprise!   Then the second link was one of my own making.    I listed every 1st round WR since Luck came into the league in 2012.  That's 7 years.   The last 7 years.   I put into bold each 1st Round WR who was clearly a success.   It came to 41%.   It also showed how few WR's have been taken in the last few drafts.   That's the NFL talking, in case you weren't paying attention.    You didn't dispute one WR.    Not one.   But you called it cherry picking.   Clearly you don't know how to use that expression correctly.    And now you throw out a list of criteria as if you're making the rules here.   Here's another free tip.   You're not.   Never have.   I'm not surprised you don't recognize the facts I put into posts.   You don't use them.   You're all about the opinion.   Most posters here are.   Because that means every single poster can simply say.....    "I'm entitled to my opinion."    Yes, they are.   Everyone is,  even you, who has no need for facts.    But what you're not entitled to is your own facts.    Just like you stated Funchess was a terrible signing based on your facts,  and it never even occured to you that Ballard and Reich had other facts that showed DF could be useful to us.    You actually thought you knew more than they did?!?    Again, unbelieveable.   You had no facts to support your nonsense about Reich being a poor play caller.   You had one game.   And I called you on it.   You've been doing a very bad back-peddle ever since,  but that's your view, with no facts to support it.   In fact all the facts support the exact opposite view.   Yet, you still try to claim victory.   It's so intellectually dishonest that it's nauseating.   And so I observed,  that with almost nothing to base it on,  you thought Willis has inconsistancies.    Thanks, Capt. Obvious.    Tomorrow will likely be sunny during the day,  turning to widely scattered darkness at night.    Anymore obvious insights?   Funny, how you now publicly call for me to ignore your posts,  when a few days ago,  in a thread I was barely even in,  you took a completely uncalled for shot at me.    Or does the phrase "legend in his own mind" not mean anything to you?      Bottom line....    you can dish it out,  especially when you think no one is looking.....   but you can't take it.   Glass ego.   I call a fraud a fraud.   
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