What would you give up for Bobby Wagner?

[runthepost]

Contract year and is 29 I believe, has been relatively heathy his whole career, and one of the best defenders in the league.. Realistically the colts won’t make this trade since we are building through the draft but if you’re a gm what would you give up?

 

I say a 3rd at most 

[WarGhost21]

Personally, I wouldn’t give up anything. Like you said, he’s older at 29, close to 30, and most LBs start to die down a bit in their early to mid 30s. This Colts defense, on the other hand, is built young with the only old guys being mainly guys who are here to teach and mentor younger guys. BWags, however amazing he is, would take playing time from other young LBs for us, and also be an expensive add at that. Fantastic player, not a fit for the team based on age and price, plus the amazing depth we already have

[Four2itus]

Were young and tough right now. I say keep developing whats on board. 

[NewColtsFan]

We’ve invested in Walker.   He may not be great, but he’s certainly average or somewhat better than.

 

We just invested heavily with draft picks at linebacker.   Okereke and Speed.   There’s no need to invest more for Wagner. 

 

I’m not saying Wagner isn’t better.   But for how long?   We’re building for the future.  Trying to create a long window of opportunity.   Wagner doesn’t fit the profile.  

 

Sorry....     I’d pass.  

[coltsva]

I'd give up beer for a month.

 

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the question.

[Hoose]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

We’ve invested in Walker.   He may not be great, but he’s certainly average or somewhat better than.

 

We just invested heavily with draft picks at linebacker.   Okereke and Speed.   There’s no need to invest more for Wagner. 

 

I’m not saying Wagner isn’t better.   But for how long?   We’re building for the future.  Trying to create a long window of opportunity.   Wagner doesn’t fit the profile.  

 

Sorry....     I’d pass.  

Yup. This team’s future is in its draft picks. The Colts invested heavily in the LB position this year. Now they have to find out what they have. 

[wig]

I wouldn't bat an eye at giving a first for an all pro in the middle of the D. 

[wig]

On 7/12/2019 at 5:33 PM, NewColtsFan said:

We’ve invested in Walker.   He may not be great, but he’s certainly average or somewhat better than.

 

We just invested heavily with draft picks at linebacker.   Okereke and Speed.   There’s no need to invest more for Wagner. 

 

I’m not saying Wagner isn’t better.   But for how long?   We’re building for the future.  Trying to create a long window of opportunity.   Wagner doesn’t fit the profile.  

 

Sorry....     I’d pass.  

 

Not sure why you're confused. He'd instantly give us the best LB corps in the league. He's entering his age 29 season and there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left. 

 

Invested in Walker?  He's a 5th rd pick. Speed?  Another 5th. These are depth picks typically, not investments. Okereke was an investment in the future but he doesn't change your actions in regards to the best player in the league at his position. 

 

Wagner would instantly become one of the top 2-3 players on the team. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, wig said:

 

Not sure why you're confused. He'd instantly give us the best LB corps in the league. He's entering his age 29 season and there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left. 

 

Invested in Walker?  He's a 5th rd pick. Speed?  Another 5th. These are depth picks typically, not investments. Okereke was an investment in the future but he doesn't change your actions in regards to the best player in the league at his position. 

 

Wagner would instantly become one of the top 2-3 players on the team. 

 

Look at your line I put into bold...      "there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left."

 

Holy Cow.    No reason?     How about because very few linebackers,  especially middle linebackers with all the pounding they take,  last to age 33-34 playing elite football.    It just rarely  happens.

 

There may be an exception to the rule.   But that's it.    Most times,  the level of play falls off pretty dramatically.

 

Do you see Chris Ballard giving up a 2nd round pick or more to get Wagner?    I don't.   After what you've seen from Chris Ballard for two and a half years,  I'm not sure why you'd think that?

[BigQungus]

I don't want to use resources on another linebacker, so in order for me to pull the trigger, it would have to be a huge steal. I'd do a 2nd rounder

[DougDew]

A 5th round pick and a ham sandwich.  With extra mayo.

[wig]

22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Look at your line I put into bold...      "there's no reason to think he doesn't have 5 years of elite production left."

 

Holy Cow.    No reason?     How about because very few linebackers,  especially middle linebackers with all the pounding they take,  last to age 33-34 playing elite football.    It just rarely  happens.

 

There may be an exception to the rule.   But that's it.    Most times,  the level of play falls off pretty dramatically.

 

Do you see Chris Ballard giving up a 2nd round pick or more to get Wagner?    I don't.   After what you've seen from Chris Ballard for two and a half years,  I'm not sure why you'd think that?

 

Who are these guys that played at the level of Wagner, had no injury history and fell off before then?  

 

The question is what I would give, not what I think CB would do.  Maybe you misread. I think there's a lot of good talent and depth on the team. If I could get a player of Wagner's level for a single pick I'd do it. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, wig said:

 

Who are these guys that played at the level of Wagner, had no injury history and fell off before then?  

 

The question is what I would give, not what I think CB would do.  Maybe you misread. I think there's a lot of good talent and depth on the team. If I could get a player of Wagner's level for a single pick I'd do it. 

 

I didn’t misread the scenario...    I understood it as you did.   What would you or I do to get Bobby Wagner?

 

I know it wasn’t about what would Chris Ballard do? 

 

But I brought up Ballard because my view is....   why would I do something that I don’t think Chris Ballard would ever do?    If Ballard wouldn’t do it, I doubt I’d want to.

 

I wanted Chris Ballard to sign Gerald McCoy.   I posted repeatedly I hoped we’d sign him.   But when we didn’t,  I didn’t say anything negative about Ballard.   I believe in him and his vision.   

 

Who knows?   Maybe Ballard (or Dodds) called Seattle and inquired what Seattle would want in a trade and that ended the conversation.   I wouldn’t rule out that we inquired.  Only that it didn’t go anywhere. 

[AwesomeAustin]

If he was a rookie, a 1st and a 3rd. Now at 29?   5th round pick and that still feels like over paying. He wouldn’t be the player that sends the Colts over the top.  

[shasta519]

2 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

If he was a rookie, a 1st and a 3rd. Now at 29?   5th round pick and that still feels like over paying. He wouldn’t be the player that sends the Colts over the top.  

 

A 5th round pick is an overpay for a 29 year-old All-Pro MLB? 

[wig]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I didn’t misread the scenario...    I understood it as you did.   What would you or I do to get Bobby Wagner?

 

I know it wasn’t about what would Chris Ballard do? 

 

But I brought up Ballard because my view is....   why would I do something that I don’t think Chris Ballard would ever do?    If Ballard wouldn’t do it, I doubt I’d want to.

 

I wanted Chris Ballard to sign Gerald McCoy.   I posted repeatedly I hoped we’d sign him.   But when we didn’t,  I didn’t say anything negative about Ballard.   I believe in him and his vision.   

 

Who knows?   Maybe Ballard (or Dodds) called Seattle and inquired what Seattle would want in a trade and that ended the conversation.   I wouldn’t rule out that we inquired.  Only that it didn’t go anywhere. 

 

Uh, why would I want to do something Ballard wouldn't? Because I have an opinion?  Same reason there is debate in the scouting dept, different opinions are healthy.   I don't know where you came up with someone saying something negative about anyone. 

 

Still waiting on that list you can't provide. 

[wig]

13 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

A 5th round pick is an overpay for a 29 year-old All-Pro MLB? 

 

He isn't just an All Pro, it's 5 straight now and he's a future HOFer.

[AwesomeAustin]

6 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

A 5th round pick is an overpay for a 29 year-old All-Pro MLB? 

 

For his salary and how it would prevent us from keeping our own, yes it’s an overpay.  I still think we are two years away before acquiring a player of his caliber would truly be the piece we need.  I agree he is outstanding but Walker and our prospects are also good.  30 is the magic number when guys decline.  Wagner May beat the odds for awhile but he may not.  Rather stay the course and not give up draft capital at this time.  When we are 1-2 players away from the SB, it may be different. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, wig said:

 

Uh, why would I want to do something Ballard wouldn't? Because I have an opinion?  Same reason there is debate in the scouting dept, different opinions are healthy.   I don't know where you came up with someone saying something negative about anyone. 

 

Still waiting on that list you can't provide. 

Oatience, grasshopper.   Lists take time.  People have lives.    The list is coming.

 

Maybe while you’re waiting you’ll provide a list that backs up your claim?

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, wig said:

 

He isn't just an All Pro, it's 5 straight now and he's a future HOFer.

 

Question for you....

 

What's your criteria here?    Future Hall of Famer?     All Pro?     Pro Bowls?

 

I don't want to start listing names and you have say that's not the level of player you were thinking of.     Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.     Apples to apples.

 

But remember,  you were the one who claimed Wagner should easily have 5 more years of ELITE level play.    

 

When you tell me what level we're talking about,  I'll be happy to give you a list.

 

[wig]

9 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Question for you....

 

What's your criteria here?    Future Hall of Famer?     All Pro?     Pro Bowls?

 

I don't want to start listing names and you have say that's not the level of player you were thinking of.     Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.     Apples to apples.

 

But remember,  you were the one who claimed Wagner should easily have 5 more years of ELITE level play.    

 

When you tell me what level we're talking about,  I'll be happy to give you a list.

 

 

I'll make it easy on you. Just list the best LBs to stop playing at a high level between 29 and 33. 

[NewColtsFan]

17 hours ago, wig said:

 

I'll make it easy on you. Just list the best LBs to stop playing at a high level between 29 and 33. 

 

OK....    here we go....    my list is not to be taken as complete,  but it's as much as I could find after doing a number of searches...   I'm sure I may have missed a player here or there...

 

I used the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a reference.    I tried not to go back too far.   So, I won't have guys like Butkus, or Nitzchke or Nobis...     they didn't have good medical, training, nutrition, etc.

 

So,  I went mostly with guys who have played since 2000...    but there are some who were drafted in the mid-90's and whose career extended into the 2000's....    This list is not ALL linebackers, just most of the top ones.    I did not include outside linebackers.    But I can make another list if you like..

 

Middle or Inside Backers.

 

1.  Patrick Willis      

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillPa98.htm

2.  Navarro Bowman

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BowmNa99.htm

3.  Jarrod Mayo

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayoJe99.htm

4.  Brian Urlacher

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UrlaBr00.htm

5.  Sean Lee

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeexSe99.htm

6.  Jon Beason

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeasJo99.htm

7.  Brian Cushing

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CushBr99.htm

8.  Jonathon Vilma

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VilmJo99.htm

9.  DQWell Jackson

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackDQ20.htm

10.   Bart Scott

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotBa20.htm

11.   David Harris

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrDa99.htm

12.   Keith Bullock

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BullKe00.htm

 

 

[wig]

16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

OK....    here we go....    my list is not to be taken as complete,  but it's as much as I could find after doing a number of searches...   I'm sure I may have missed a player here or there...

 

I used the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a reference.    I tried not to go back too far.   So, I won't have guys like Butkus, or Nitzchke or Nobis...     they didn't have good medical, training, nutrition, etc.

 

So,  I went mostly with guys who have played since 2000...    but there are some who were drafted in the mid-90's and whose career extended into the 2000's....    This list is not ALL linebackers, just most of the top ones.    I did not include outside linebackers.    But I can make another list if you like..

 

Middle or Inside Backers.

 

1.  Patrick Willis      

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillPa98.htm

2.  Navarro Bowman

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BowmNa99.htm

3.  Jarrod Mayo

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayoJe99.htm

4.  Brian Urlacher

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UrlaBr00.htm

5.  Sean Lee

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeexSe99.htm

6.  Jon Beason

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeasJo99.htm

7.  Brian Cushing

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CushBr99.htm

8.  Jonathon Vilma

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VilmJo99.htm

9.  DQWell Jackson

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackDQ20.htm

10.   Bart Scott

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotBa20.htm

11.   David Harris

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrDa99.htm

12.   Keith Bullock

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BullKe00.htm

 

 

 

So out of this list: 

 

Willis retired before he had to

 

Bowman had really nasty injuries that had nothing to do with age

 

Mayo isn't in the same conversation

 

Urlacher was an AP 4 years older than Wagner is now

 

Lee has been injured a ton throughout his career

 

Nobody else should be in the conversation in regards to Wagner at any point in their careers. 

 

On the other hand, Ray Lewis, Thomas Davis, Derrick Thomas, London Fletcher, and Urlacher were all pros 4 seasons from the age Wagner is now. 

 

Maybe I should have said 4 years of elite play? 

[Dark Superman]

I was shocked to see Wagner rated 99 overall in Madden.

Darius Leonard should've been 99. Lol. jk.

[rock8591]

A bucket of gold...

 

But no players or picks.

[NewColtsFan]

On 7/19/2019 at 6:04 PM, wig said:

 

So out of this list: 

 

Willis retired before he had to

Willis retired due to injury.   Feet and toes.    Don't take my word for it.   Take his. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/12454230/patrick-willis-san-francisco-49ers-retires

 

On 7/19/2019 at 6:04 PM, wig said:

Bowman had really nasty injuries that had nothing to do with age

You're correct.    Bowman's injuries had nothing to do with age.   It had to do with playing the game of football.   It's a violent game.    And the longer you play, especially in a violent position.  the greater the chance of injury.    Bowman got badly injured.

 

Mayo isn't in the same conversation

Says you.    In New England, they think if not for injury,  Mayo ends his career in the Hall of Fame.    His stats and accomplishments stack up favorably.

 

Urlacher was an AP 4 years older than Wagner is now

Urlacher had two elite years,  two good years,  and one terrible year.   That's not "5 elite years" which was YOUR original point.

 

On 7/19/2019 at 6:04 PM, wig said:

Lee has been injured a ton throughout his career

Because football is a violent game.

 

Nobody else should be in the conversation in regards to Wagner at any point in their careers. 

Not sure why you think that playing 7 years with no injuries somehow guarantees that you won't get injured within the next 5 years.   Being that good doesn't somehow guarantee that you won't get hurt in the 5-year time frame you listed.

Injuries take a toll.   Performance suffers.

 

On the other hand, Ray Lewis, Thomas Davis, Derrick Thomas, London Fletcher, and Urlacher were all pros 4 seasons from the age Wagner is now. 

 

Maybe I should have said 4 years of elite play? 

 

Not sure why you so casually dismiss the other players.   They were only some of the best inside or middle linebackers of their generation?     They got hurt,  not because they weren't great players,  but because they play football.   This is a strange argument you're attempting to make.   All 12 linebackers I listed did not meet the criteria you laid out.   You asked for a list,  I gave it to you.    

[Rackeen305]

On 7/11/2019 at 10:19 PM, runthepost said:

Contract year and is 29 I believe, has been relatively heathy his whole career, and one of the best defenders in the league.. Realistically the colts won’t make this trade since we are building through the draft but if you’re a gm what would you give up?

 

I say a 3rd at most 

Whats the name of our current ILB..Walker, send em' to seattle.

[jvan1973]

On 8/16/2019 at 4:54 PM, Rackeen305 said:

Whats the name of our current ILB..Walker, send em' to seattle.

Your pipe dreams are endless

[Four2itus]

On 7/12/2019 at 5:50 PM, coltsva said:

I'd give up beer for a month.

 

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the question.

Wow...that is giving up a lot!