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Bobby Okereke allegations at Stanford

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On 6/5/2019 at 11:45 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

This is getting worse for you, not better.    

 

Many women men don’t speak up because if viewpoints like yours.   Straight out if the 1950’s.

 

Nice how you present the two options for women as Lose-lose.   Mighty kind of you.   

 

I despise the notion that just because something is old or from old times, it is inferior to present day.

 

I respect everyone's opinions and legitimate criticisms, but have zero guilt in my beliefs. If someone does not talk to the police, or avoids them, then my opinion is it's because they have wrongdoing on their own side that they are trying to avoid getting caught for.

 

Act like a suspect, get treated like a suspect.

 

The whole scenario of a 'victim' not reporting it to the police, but to the school's honor code department is highly illogical, counterintuitive, if not fishy. Do you report a murder, assault, or car theft to the police? Or your grandma?

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people are capable of bad things. and people are capable of lying.

not passing judgement on either. but not going to the police creates a whole different set of questions/issues. 

 

innocent until proven guilty. and if someone gets away with something, karma typically catches up. 

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46 minutes ago, rock8591 said:

 

I despise the notion that just because something is old or from old times, it is inferior to present day.

 

I respect everyone's opinions and legitimate criticisms, but have zero guilt in my beliefs. If someone does not talk to the police, or avoids them, then my opinion is it's because they have wrongdoing on their own side that they are trying to avoid getting caught for.

 

Act like a suspect, get treated like a suspect.

 

The whole scenario of a 'victim' not reporting it to the police, but to the school's honor code department is highly illogical, counterintuitive, if not fishy. Do you report a murder, assault, or car theft to the police? Or your grandma?

 

Rape or sexual assault is different than most other crimes.    Prosecutors and defense lawyers will tell you that.   So will judges and police.    

 

Its the exception to all the rules.  

 

Im sure you’ve heard the claim that one out of three women has either been raped or sexually assaulted in some way.    One out of three.   You don’t hear that happening with most any other crime.  

 

This is why the “MeToo” movement almost literally exploded overnight.   So many thousands and thousands of women who feel betrayed by one or more aspects of the whole system.

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8 hours ago, csmopar said:

Agreed but assuming guilt just because of an allegation isn’t justice. It’s vengence

Assuming guilt based on only an allegation is strange.  People seem to do it all the time for various reasons

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Epstein?

 

Did you mean Weinstein?   The Hollywood monster,  Harvey Weinstein?

No I meant the child sex trafficking epstein https://www.thedailybeast.com/feds-are-asking-jeffrey-epsteins-victims-about-sex-trafficking-crimes

 

Money and power can shield you from paying from what you have done

 

But Weinstein is is terrible as well

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6 hours ago, rock8591 said:

 

I despise the notion that just because something is old or from old times, it is inferior to present day.

 

I respect everyone's opinions and legitimate criticisms, but have zero guilt in my beliefs. If someone does not talk to the police, or avoids them, then my opinion is it's because they have wrongdoing on their own side that they are trying to avoid getting caught for.

 

Act like a suspect, get treated like a suspect.

 

The whole scenario of a 'victim' not reporting it to the police, but to the school's honor code department is highly illogical, counterintuitive, if not fishy. Do you report a murder, assault, or car theft to the police? Or your grandma?

 

Police have a lot of work to do on investigating rape https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/us/rape-victims-kits-police-departments.html

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

The movement does not appear to be very forgiving.   For example, early on, Matt Damon, a Liberal and supportive to the cause, asked a public question...   must all transgressions against women be treated the same?   Must an inappropriate hug or inappropriate  touch be viewed as the same as sexual assault?    Must each wrong doing end with the man losing his job and shamed into potentially losing a career?    And the public blowback from women was astounding.   He was called tone deaf.   He was told to shut up, that women were not interested in hearing from someone like him.   And this was a supporter of the cause.   Matt shut up pretty quickly.  It was a Red Flag for me and I talked about at the time with my wife.

 

I think that Matt is right, not all contact has evil intent even if it is demeaning and unwanted.  

 

I don't believe all wrong doing results in job loss.  Quite the opposite actually.

 

It's not hard to not touch people.  I actually don't know any men who do this at work.

 

The vast majority of men understand and have no problem respecting women.

 

Some people have boundaries that they don't want violated by anyone at all.  Best to assume that everyone has boundaries.  Especially at work.

 

As far as the backlash, yeah his comments did seem tone deaf but I do see his point.

 

As with other things a vocal minority doesn't speak for everyone.

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9 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Are you sure of that? I read at least 2 comments stating that.

 

You said that was the impression that they were giving you. Who said those words? 

 

So... since she shouldn't have to talk about being raped where do you go from here? Just assume that she was in fact raped? Should he go to prison now because she feels uncomfortable talking about it? Because that's the only other side of the coin. 

 

My scenario brings a possible solution. Your scenario means nothing happens. She just has to live with it. So why are you even arguing about it? Do you want the truth or do you want her to not feel any discomfort through this remaining period of her life? Because as far as I can tell, that will never happen if she doesn't get any closure, which she wont until justice is served. 

 

What are you arguing about? Are you saying justice doesn't need to be served as long as she doesn't need to talk about it? 

 

Maybe since no one will listen to her, and she shouldn't HAVE to talk about it anymore, maybe just maybe, you should take up the mantle and go after this guy for her! 

 

Otherwise you're arguing with people for their viewpoints and that's it. You dont like that people think she should have it investigated. That's all you care about, what people think, not what could actually be done to help this person you think you care about more than everyone else here. 

 

Also. She doesn't HAVE to talk to a Male police officer. Lest you forget that females are also in the police force. This isn't the 1950s. 

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34 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

Should he go to prison now because she feels uncomfortable talking about it? 

 

No, I don't think he should go to prison. I actually have not said anything about him. Is she talking about it or has she asked for him to be prosecuted now? This is something she reported 3 or so years ago. The media is talking about it now. Is it because she brought it up now? Serious question. I don't know the answer. Maybe you know?

 

34 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

You said that was the impression that they were giving you. Who said those words?

 

I'll look for them when I get a chance later. I'll post them. 

 

34 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

So why are you even arguing about it?

 

I'm not arguing about it. I'm sharing my opinions just as you are. 

 

You're not a woman. Most incidents of rape are not reported for many reasons. Men who are sexually assaulted often don't report it either. I don't believe it is something that people (victims) want to talk about.

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8 hours ago, BOTT said:

 

"Btw, I wrote this earlier. I wonder who on this board was defending Jameis Winston when the woman accused him of sexual assault". 

 

I defended him and still do. Did you read anything about that case? That was 100% about money, they "victim" lied from the start, even the women that she said would help her cause said she lied. Hell, even her friends said she made up the attack, she didn't go to the police she went to a trial attorney. This case was the same as the Virginia rape case, everyone lynched the Virginia school until it fell apart, but they still said "something must have happened"..

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36 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

No, I don't think he should go to prison. I actually have not said anything about him. Is she talking about it or has she asked for him to be prosecuted now? This is something she reported 3 or so years ago. The media is talking about it now. Is it because she brought it up now? Serious question. I don't know the answer. Maybe you know?

 

 

I'll look for them when I get a chance later. I'll post them. 

 

 

I'm not arguing about it. I'm sharing my opinions just as you are. 

 

You're not a woman. Most incidents of rape are not reported for many reasons. Men who are sexually assaulted often don't report it either. I don't believe it is something that people (victims) want to talk about.

 

No one wants to talk about that happening to them. It might be easier to just forget about it. She didnt bring it up to my knowledge. The media being the media. 

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11 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

No one wants to talk about that happening to them. It might be easier to just forget about it. She didnt bring it up to my knowledge. The media being the media. 

 

Lol. If she did not bring it up now, why are people posting comments as if she wants him to go to jail now. This is something she reported to the school a few years ago but folks here are commenting that she wants to "ruin his life" and is trying to make money off him. When she reported it, he was not even a contributing player on the team. 

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This is a dead story to me.  There's no action being taken on it and it's already been sorted out. 

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3 hours ago, Nadine said:

Assuming guilt based on only an allegation is strange.  People seem to do it all the time for various reasons

Yep they do, and it isn't right. 

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2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Lol. If she did not bring it up now, why are people posting comments as if she wants him to go to jail now. This is something she reported to the school a few years ago but folks here are commenting that she wants to "ruin his life" and is trying to make money off him. When she reported it, he was not even a contributing player on the team. 

 

Yeah...the idea that she is just trying to go after a wealthy athlete is goofy...he was a freshman at the time...and not even really a high-profile one. And it doesn't seem like she leaked it...because what would she have to gain from that?

 

If she had intentions of truly hurting him after all of these years...she could have just leaked this during the draft process and forced teams to weigh the PR consequences of drafting him.

 

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12 hours ago, Myles said:

What it comes down to for me is that a alleged rape not reported should not be assumed true.  It sucks because I understand why many women would choose not to pursue it.  Lots of reasons.  But an accusation, not proved should not ruin a man's life.

 

Alleged rape, reported, investigated, but not tried, should not be assumed true. At the same time, it should not be assumed false. Any assumption is a bad idea, especially when the potential consequences for an allegation can be life changing. 

 

Facts tend to come out over time, while people tend to rush to judgment. Even worse, people tend to be unwilling to adjust their viewpoint in the light of new facts; they'd rather rationalize those facts to avoid acknowledging that their initial rush to judgment was wrong.

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

they'd rather rationalize those facts to avoid acknowledging that their initial rush to judgment was wrong.

:scoregood:

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3 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Lol. If she did not bring it up now, why are people posting comments as if she wants him to go to jail now. This is something she reported to the school a few years ago but folks here are commenting that she wants to "ruin his life" and is trying to make money off him. When she reported it, he was not even a contributing player on the team. 

 

You speak the truth. There is nothing current out other than the date of the article. 

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On 6/6/2019 at 10:46 AM, Superman said:

 

These are all very dangerous assumptions that you don't know to be true.

 

No one should be expelled immediately due to an allegation, athlete or not. The allegation should be investigated.

 

It's also interesting that the panel approach at Stanford resembles the federal grand jury process. A supermajority must conclude that charges should be brought against the accused, it's a private, secret process to protect the accused person (since charges might not be filed), etc. 

 

And at the end of the day, the reason the police didn't get involved is because the accuser chose not to involve the police, not because Stanford didn't report the allegation. If the accuser reported the encounter, then Okereke's fate would have been determined by the legal system. And to be clear, I'm not dismissing the possibility that any accuser would decline to report an encounter for legitimate reasons. I'm only saying that Okereke's situation was handled by the university because that's how the accuser chose to handle it.

 

You're 100% right. Apparently there are 2 sides to this: folks like myself who are incredibly uncomfortable knowing about this incident, & those who couldn't care less because nothing came of it. At this point, I'm finished discussing it because it goes south so quickly, & there's no real solution, so I'm gonna just root for the kid to do well & hope he doesn't make us all regret it down the road.

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39 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

You're 100% right. Apparently there are 2 sides to this: folks like myself who are incredibly uncomfortable knowing about this incident, & those who couldn't care less because nothing came of it. At this point, I'm finished discussing it because it goes south so quickly, & there's no real solution, so I'm gonna just root for the kid to do well & hope he doesn't make us all regret it down the road.

 

That's fair. I understand if you don't want to respond, I'm just going to add this as a qualifier, just in case...

 

I care about the situation. And reading the details, it doesn't sound like the process Stanford uses is very good (I used a federal grand jury as a comparison, but in no way to do I think Stanford's process is comparable to a grand jury; I was just saying that a simple majority isn't always enough to bring charges, and it's usually not enough to convict). Nor does it sound like Okereke handled the process and the aftermath the best way he could. That nothing came of it (legally) doesn't mean that I just dismiss it.

 

(Digression: When Josh McNary was accused, his reported initial response made me very uncomfortable. When the police showed up, he said 'I know why you're here.' I took that as 'I did something wrong, and now I'm going to jail.' After the details came out, it was obvious that he meant 'I know she's accusing me of raping her.' End of the day, the case went to trial, the jury of 11 women and two men deliberated for two hours, and returned a unanimous verdict of not guilty. My point in bringing that up is that McNary's handling of the situation was different from how Okereke initially handled himself. At the very least, Okereke had issues with boundaries.)

 

But there's this 'believe victims' narrative that makes me uncomfortable. I get it, and understand that approach. It's hard to prove rape, women in particular feel marginalized when they report assault, the common response for a long time has been 'what did she do to make him do that to her?' or 'she's probably lying for money, or to ruin his life.' None of that is fair or appropriate, IMO.

 

But the justice system requires a high standard of proof, and relies on a presumption of innocence, and it does so because the consequences of being found guilty are life changing. A person shouldn't have to suffer the serious consequences of wrongdoing simply because they were accused of wrongdoing. Saying 'I believe the accuser' automatically means you don't believe the accused, and that person hasn't even had a chance to defend him/herself. That bothers me, just like the victim-shaming and blaming bothers me. 

 

Being expelled isn't as serious as going to jail, but it's still pretty serious. It should be proven that the person being punished is actually guilty of doing something wrong, and deserves to be punished. I don't think someone should be expelled just because someone makes an accusation. That accusation should be proved first, to a reasonable but high degree.

 

On Making a Murderer, Steven Avery's appeal attorneys made a statement that really stuck with me. They said: 'You can say that you'll never kill someone, but you can't say that you'll never be accused and tried for killing someone. And if that should happen to anyone, you should have the right to a competent and unbiased investigation, and a fair trial by a jury of your peers.' 

 

I think the same principle applies. Before you can impose punishment of any kind on someone for rape or sexual assault -- and that includes the damage to that person's reputation -- we should prove that they actually did what they're being accused of. 

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16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

This is a monster.    The Criminal Justice system epically failed.   This is a terrible story that I had not heard about before.   Disgusting.   

 

Forgiveness and metcy are not words that came to mind when I read this story.    Ugh.

I'm reading that the investigation into Epstein has been re-opened....if so could be big because it could uncover ALOT of rich and powerful people.l involved in this.

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12 minutes ago, Superman said:

FoHo, the same site that brought the initial allegation to light, is claiming there's a second allegation against Okereke. 

 

https://mailchi.mp/fountainhopper/foho-81-football-captain-nfl-draftee-bobby-okereke-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-another-student-by-groping-digitally-penetrating-her?e=cf64df49da

Hmm. The colts really don’t need these kind of distractions. A second allegation is not good. Going to be interesting if they keep him around.

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22 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Hmm. The colts really don’t need these kind of distractions. A second allegation is not good. Going to be interesting if they keep him around.

 

We'll see what becomes of this. The team might have already been aware of this.

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6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

We'll see what becomes of this. The team might have already been aware of this.

If they drafted him after knowing about multiple allegations shame on ballard. One I can understand maybe being false but you can’t draft a guy with multiple incidents. He needs to be gone. All ballard talked about was this guys character.

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2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

If they drafted him after knowing about multiple allegations shame on ballard. One I can understand maybe being false but you can’t draft a guy with multiple incidents. He needs to be gone. All ballard talked about was this guys character.

 

Now we're back to allegations meaning more than they should...

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44 minutes ago, Superman said:

FoHo, the same site that brought the initial allegation to light, is claiming there's a second allegation against Okereke. 

 

https://mailchi.mp/fountainhopper/foho-81-football-captain-nfl-draftee-bobby-okereke-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-another-student-by-groping-digitally-penetrating-her?e=cf64df49da

 

As a Colts fan, my comfort level with Bobby just dropped like a rock.   And my discomfort level just skyrocketed.

 

None of us should be surprised if, in the next week or so,  the Colts announce they're releasing him.

 

The benefit of the doubt on one incident is one thing...    but two incidents is entirely different.

 

And if Bobby didn't tell the Colts about this incident then,  then he's likely gone.     And if he did tell them about this,  and we still drafted him,   then Ballard is going to have some explaining to do.

 

He should've learned from the first event.....  

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46 minutes ago, Superman said:

FoHo, the same site that brought the initial allegation to light, is claiming there's a second allegation against Okereke. 

 

https://mailchi.mp/fountainhopper/foho-81-football-captain-nfl-draftee-bobby-okereke-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-another-student-by-groping-digitally-penetrating-her?e=cf64df49da

 

I’m trying to remain impartial until more info (if any) comes out, but that write up seems very heavily biased

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I would not be surprised if this is why he isn’t signed yet.  If Ballard drafted him knowing about both he looks like a hypocrite.  I am sorry no guy with high character has this happened twice.

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3 minutes ago, BPindy said:

 

I’m trying to remain impartial until more info (if any) comes out, but that write up seems very heavily biased

 

The initial one seemed biased to me as well, even though the baseline facts were accurate.

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Sadly, women have learned to weaponize these allegations, which can completely ruin a man, even when the claims have zero supporting evidence.

 

Let's hope Bobby doesn't have the lifelong dream he worked hard for ruined by a couple of unfounded allegations. Unfortunately, with multiple (unfounded) allegations, my hunch is the media (who are less journalists and more activists) smell blood and will go in for the kill, as they so often do.

 

Quote

Carly told FoHo that she watched Okereke and Becca talk, and that Becca deleted the texts afterwards.

 

Hmm . . .

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56 minutes ago, Superman said:

FoHo, the same site that brought the initial allegation to light, is claiming there's a second allegation against Okereke. 

 

https://mailchi.mp/fountainhopper/foho-81-football-captain-nfl-draftee-bobby-okereke-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-another-student-by-groping-digitally-penetrating-her?e=cf64df49da

 

I’m  taking this with a grain or pound of salt.  I have questions about the publication itself.  It reads like an old tabloid reporting on alien sitings.  There is no reporter named or even an editor or staff of any kind willing to put their name behind it.  

 

The allegations themselves are are concerning but I’d like to hear it from a second source and one that has a real reputation.  If I’m wrong and they are reputable please let me know but I’d be shocked if so.  

 

 

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6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

As a Colts fan, my comfort level with Bobby just dropped like a rock.   And my discomfort level just skyrocketed.

 

None of us should be surprised if, in the next week or so,  the Colts announce they're releasing him.

 

The benefit of the doubt on one incident is one thing...    but two incidents is entirely different.

 

And if Bobby didn't tell the Colts about this incident then,  then he's likely gone.     And if he did tell them about this,  and we still drafted him,   then Ballard is going to have some explaining to do.

 

He should've learned from the first event.....  

 

1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

I would not be surprised if this is why he isn’t signed yet.  If Ballard drafted him knowing about both he looks like a hypocrite.  I am sorry no guy with high character has this happened twice.

 

Does it matter to either of you that we don't even know who this second accusation is supposedly coming from? If you read the FoHo "report," they're claiming that a friend of the woman who was supposedly assaulted is their source. 

 

Again, an accusation isn't proof. We can't act like we believe in a presumption of innocence if we're not willing to hold to that principle.

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7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

Does it matter to either of you that we don't even know who this second accusation is supposedly coming from? If you read the FoHo "report," they're claiming that a friend of the woman who was supposedly assaulted is their source. 

 

Again, an accusation isn't proof. We can't act like we believe in a presumption of innocence if we're not willing to hold to that principle.

 

So.....

 

Look at what you've written.     Fine.

 

Now ask yourself how many times are we to give a player -- any player -- the presumption of innocence before we say we are no longer willing to keep him on the roster.     Three times?    Four times?     And what if something similar happens while he's a member of the Colts?    

 

Wasn't it Hunt that KC released based on him not revealing an incident to them.   They asked and he lied.     So, what if BO did not tell the Colts about this incident?     He's still presumed innocent.    That doesn't mean he's entitled to remain with the Colts if he's not handling his personal business like an adult.

 

I'm not saying he's guilty.    I'm saying he's not behaving like an adult and apparently didn't learn from the first incident.    Unless you're claiming that the girls are trying to lie and frame him?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

Does it matter to either of you that we don't even know who this second accusation is supposedly coming from? If you read the FoHo "report," they're claiming that a friend of the woman who was supposedly assaulted is their source. 

 

Again, an accusation isn't proof. We can't act like we believe in a presumption of innocence if we're not willing to hold to that principle.

 

To be clear.....

 

I am NOT advocating we cut him right now.     I'm ONLY saying don't be surprised if it happens.

 

I'm hoping we talk to BO about this incident and are satisfied with his responses and we can keep him and he's a valuable asset for the team.

 

But, I suspect a lot of things have to happen for the Colts to be satisfied a second time.   Especially with the timing being so bad.

 

Did the girl report this to the school?    To law enforcement?     Lots of questions.   I hope the answers are really, really good.    Otherwise.....

 

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7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

So.....

 

Look at what you've written.     Fine.

 

Now ask yourself how many times are we to give a player -- any player -- the presumption of innocence before we say we are no longer willing to keep him on the roster.     Three times?    Four times?     And what if something similar happens while he's a member of the Colts?    

 

Wasn't it Hunt that KC released based on him not revealing an incident to them.   They asked and he lied.     So, what if BO did not tell the Colts about this incident?     He's still presumed innocent.    That doesn't mean he's entitled to remain with the Colts if he's not handling his personal business like an adult.

 

I'm not saying he's guilty.    I'm saying he's not behaving like an adult and apparently didn't learn from the first incident.    Unless you're claiming that the girls are trying to lie and frame him?

 

 

 

And what if BO is as blindsided by this as the Colts are? I’m not trying to say it’s made up, but there’s no real names attached to this report at all

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Ballard has sadly set himself up where he is going to have to release him. Just from a PR standpoint. When all you talk about is character and he went out of his way to praise Bobby he may have no choice. Unless he can prove this is a witch hunt.

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17 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

So.....

 

Look at what you've written.     Fine.

 

Now ask yourself how many times are we to give a player -- any player -- the presumption of innocence before we say we are no longer willing to keep him on the roster.     Three times?    Four times?     And what if something similar happens while he's a member of the Colts?    

 

Wasn't it Hunt that KC released based on him not revealing an incident to them.   They asked and he lied.     So, what if BO did not tell the Colts about this incident?     He's still presumed innocent.    That doesn't mean he's entitled to remain with the Colts if he's not handling his personal business like an adult.

 

I'm not saying he's guilty.    I'm saying he's not behaving like an adult and apparently didn't learn from the first incident.    Unless you're claiming that the girls are trying to lie and frame him?

 

I'm not claiming anything, except that we don't know anything beyond these allegations. One was handled four years ago, the other popped up four hours ago. We don't even know if the Colts were already aware of the second allegation. We don't know a lot. I'm not going to advocate like I have concrete facts.

 

And the difference between Okereke and Hunt is that Hunt was actually guilty of doing something wrong. There's video proof of it. Okereke has been accused, with no proof to this point. There could be ten accusations. At some point, someone has to prove that he actually did something wrong. Prove that he dosed someone, prove that someone left his room and couldn't remember what happened, prove that someone has physical evidence of harm... something. Until then, calling for adverse action against him is premature (not that you have), and shaming the Colts front office for drafting and standing by him is over the top (again, not that you have).

 

Edit: You give a person the presumption of innocence until it's been proven he's not innocent. Otherwise, you're treating him as if he's guilty of something, when that hasn't been proven.

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3 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

he is going to have to release him. Just from a PR standpoint

 

Based on a nameless, faceless allegation. Right, that's how this should go.

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I'll add this: If the Colts look into this and don't like the smell of the situation, that's a different story. If they feel like he lied to them, if he withheld something, if they have additional information that hasn't been provided, etc., that would be a different situation, IMO. Whether he's guilty of sexual assault or not, if they don't trust him, cutting ties would be understandable.

 

But again, we don't know any of that. We just know someone is making an accusation.

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