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Steamboat_Shaun

Bobby Okereke allegations at Stanford

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11 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

For me it’s not about whether he’s innocent or guilty, because at this point that’s clearly never going to be proven. It’s about whether someone with this type of allegation in his past deserves a once in a lifetime opportunity like playing in the NFL simply because he has unique athletic talent.

So an unprovable allegation disqualifies a young man from pursuing his dream and future earnings? Sounds like you are presuming guilt...

Sad state of affairs in the world these days!

Most of the time I respect what you have to say around here, but this is way off target.

Sorry!

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37 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think that's especially true in a situation where the encounter began as consensual, then the victim claims to have withdrawn consent at a later point, which is what I understand the Okereke situation to have been (per the alleged victim's claim). 

Yep, plus we don't have the specifics as to what caused her to withdraw it either.  There is a case pending in NY as we speak right now, where the encounter was consentual all the way through, right up until he ejaculated inside of her.  She's filed charges because she told him to pull out first... so its going to be interesting to see how they proceed with it.

 

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9 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Right...the initial encounter was consensual...but only to a degree...and Okereke went past that...per her claim.  

 

Having been a single college male not "that" long ago...these types of consensual encounters are quite common...as is the women only consenting to a certain degree. But it's also not always the case either.

 

So it's impossible for anyone of us to know how it truly went down. I will admit..his actions after she made the claim are somewhat of a red flag to me...and I am surprised they weren't to Ballard as well. But I imagine they knew more details than we do right now...and still felt comfortable going forward.   

 

Just to clarify, I'm not taking either side on this. I read the story and understand how Okereke's actions after the encounter, during the process and afterward were framed, but I don't have enough information to have formed any opinion of what anyone did in this situation.

 

I was speaking more in generalities, and about one of the elements that would have made this situation more difficult to figure out and navigate.

 

Specific to Ballard, I definitely don't think he or the team were just so enamored with this player that they rationalized their way through the process. I'm giving them more credit than that, and assuming that when they say they did their due diligence, it means they performed an honest assessment based on the information available to them. 

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3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Yep, plus we don't have the specifics as to what caused her to withdraw it either.  There is a case pending in NY as we speak right now, where the encounter was consentual all the way through, right up until he ejaculated inside of her.  She's filed charges because she told him to pull out first... so its going to be interesting to see how they proceed with it.

 

 

Without a written contract spelling out the acceptable terms of their encounter, and witnesses to the contract and the encounter itself, what do you do with that???

 

And if they did agree to those terms beforehand, and he purposely violated them, that would qualify as a violation of another person, but I don't think it should be considered rape.

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1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Yep, plus we don't have the specifics as to what caused her to withdraw it either.  There is a case pending in NY as we speak right now, where the encounter was consentual all the way through, right up until he ejaculated inside of her.  She's filed charges because she told him to pull out first... so its going to be interesting to see how they proceed with it.

 

It makes you wonder how often something like that happens.

 

If you meet someone at a bar or party and have a one-night stand, how do you know what the other person is into?  It's like you need to sit down and have a conversation about how far either person is willing to go, acceptable positions, safe-words, lines in the sand, etc.  And that just seems like a mood-killer.

 

Maybe young folks have it figured out with these apps where they can communicate all that stuff and find a "match" before they even meet in person.  :lecture:

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Without a written contract spelling out the acceptable terms of their encounter, and witnesses to the contract and the encounter itself, what do you do with that???

 

And if they did agree to those terms beforehand, and he purposely violated them, that would qualify as a violation of another person, but I don't think it should be considered rape.

There in lays the question.  How do you prove that one way or the other, with nothing in writing? 

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5 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

It makes you wonder how often something like that happens.

 

If you meet someone at a bar or party and have a one-night stand, how do you know what the other person is into?  It's like you need to sit down and have a conversation about how far either person is willing to go, acceptable positions, safe-words, lines in the sand, etc.  And that just seems like a mood-killer.

 

Maybe young folks have it figured out with these apps where they can communicate all that stuff and find a "match" before they even meet in person.  :lecture:

Withdrawal of consent during and accusations of rape/assault afterwards? Its not uncommon, yet not common either.  Usually it involves a certain Act within the encounter that one does not wish to do, but yet the other forces. IE Sodomy.

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7 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

 

If you meet someone at a bar or party and have a one-night stand, how do you know what the other person is into?  It's like you need to sit down and have a conversation about how far either person is willing to go, acceptable positions, safe-words, lines in the sand, etc.  And that just seems like a mood-killer.

 

 

There's actually a case being debated now in the appeals courts out west, guy meets girl at bar, both get hammered, both passed out, both woke up next to each other in a hotel, naked.  She called police, filed rape charges saying she doesn't remember consenting.  He also doesn't remember the encounter at all.  Both their BACs were over twice the legal limit, the morning AFTER!  He was charged with rape because his DNA was found in the victim on the grounds that an intoxicated person can't give consent.  Question is, what happens when BOTH parties are intoxicated and sex occurs? By the notion of the charges, she should have been charged with rape as well as him as he couldn't consent because he was intoxicated and blacked out too.

Its just getting to be a dangerous can of worms in the dating scene these days.  

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29 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Man, this thread (much like these he said/she said situations) is a mess.

 

abandon thread GIF

 

Yes!  but like the train wreck it is, i can't seem to avoid looking.

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25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Just to clarify, I'm not taking either side on this. I read the story and understand how Okereke's actions after the encounter, during the process and afterward were framed, but I don't have enough information to have formed any opinion of what anyone did in this situation.

 

I was speaking more in generalities, and about one of the elements that would have made this situation more difficult to figure out and navigate.

 

Specific to Ballard, I definitely don't think he or the team were just so enamored with this player that they rationalized their way through the process. I'm giving them more credit than that, and assuming that when they say they did their due diligence, it means they performed an honest assessment based on the information available to them. 

 

I am not taking sides either...we just don't have enough information. It's just a difficult and unfortunate situation, regardless of what actually happened. 

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45 minutes ago, jmac_48 said:

So an unprovable allegation disqualifies a young man from pursuing his dream and future earnings? Sounds like you are presuming guilt...

Sad state of affairs in the world these days!

Most of the time I respect what you have to say around here, but this is way off target.

Sorry!

 

You're entitled to that opinion, but let's be perfectly clear about something, if Okereke wasn't an athlete, he likely would've been expelled immediately, & then the police would've gotten involved. Not everyone gets to have their fate of a pending rape allegation decided by a panel of snot-nosed Stanford kids of which "ONLY" 3 out of 5 thought he was guilty, twice.

 

I'm not presuming guilt, but it definitely sounds like he at the very least benefitted heavily from a very broken system that's in place at almost all universities nowadays.

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6 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

It makes you wonder how often something like that happens.

 

If you meet someone at a bar or party and have a one-night stand, how do you know what the other person is into?  It's like you need to sit down and have a conversation about how far either person is willing to go, acceptable positions, safe-words, lines in the sand, etc.  And that just seems like a mood-killer.

 

Maybe young folks have it figured out with these apps where they can communicate all that stuff and find a "match" before they even meet in person.  :lecture:

 

I went tumbling down the rabbit hole the other day and came across an article about people who are into 'different things' in their personal lives are kind of nailing this consent issue. Without too much detail, since it's not appropriate for this forum, the idea is that the more conversation people are having beforehand, the more confident and comfortable they are with the encounter.

 

It also talked about people who are willing to end the encounter if they feel their partner crosses a line. In those comments, while the person might consider that line-crossing a violation, it wasn't spoken of as a sexual assault or a rape. Not that it couldn't become that serious, but in general, it would be considered just going too far, based on the consent provided.

 

o_0

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17 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

You're entitled to that opinion, but let's be perfectly clear about something, if Okereke wasn't an athlete, he likely would've been expelled immediately, & then the police would've gotten involved. Not everyone gets to have their fate of a pending rape allegation decided by a panel of snot-nosed Stanford kids of which "ONLY" 3 out of 5 thought he was guilty, twice.

 

I'm not presuming guilt, but it definitely sounds like he at the very least benefitted heavily from a very broken system that's in place at almost all universities nowadays.

 

 

I see many cases where students are expelled without seemingly have  been proved guilty of anything . Sounds like you could care less about incidents similar to what happened  at Duke a few years back ? IMO , you have it butt backward . Unfortunately this is always going to be a problem as proof is often difficult as to exactly what happened . Also more often than not , alcohol further clouds the issue. 

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27 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

You're entitled to that opinion, but let's be perfectly clear about something, if Okereke wasn't an athlete, he likely would've been expelled immediately, & then the police would've gotten involved. Not everyone gets to have their fate of a pending rape allegation decided by a panel of snot-nosed Stanford kids of which "ONLY" 3 out of 5 thought he was guilty, twice.

 

I'm not presuming guilt, but it definitely sounds like he at the very least benefitted heavily from a very broken system that's in place at almost all universities nowadays.

that's an assumption based on no evidence.  Plus, every college has their own boards like these and they aren't exclusive to athletes. 

 

But again, the FEMALE ACCUSER chose to take it to that school panel.  She chose to NOT take it to police.  And he would NOT have to be expelled for police to be involved. I'm not sure where you're getting that notion.

 

Your posts pretty much sound like you ARE in fact assuming he's guilty. With nothing to substantiate that notion except a 3-2 decision on a panel...

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23 hours ago, Superman said:

 

You don't that that's what happened here. No one outside of those two people really know what happened.

 

And I'd go out on a limb and say that the amount of women who are actually raped is much higher than the amount of women who falsely accuse someone of rape.

Sadly that is true. But I've also seen first hand false accusations. They should be held accountable 

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17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

What world do you live in?

 

You're the angriest poster here.....

 

 

also the most irrational

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18 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Disagree and obviously nothing of the sort happened cause hes not in jail and this happened supposedly back in 2015 since its that far back that's enough proof to me it was bullcrap.

 

there is nothing OBVIOUS about the situation at this point, and there likely never will be

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1 minute ago, J@son said:

also the most irrational

 

Now THAT would be an interesting poll.  I can think of a few candidates for that title.  haha

 

Where's the guy that thinks Chad Kelly should be banned from the league?  I wonder what he has to say about Ballard drafting Okereke...  :thinking:

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14 hours ago, rock8591 said:

 

If you're the one accusing someone of a crime, the onus is on you to prove it, not for the accused to disprove it before you even accuse them. If a victim does not want to report an incident to the police, it would make me severely question the integrity of the allegation.

 

Not reporting to police = incident didn't happen in all legal sense. Common sense tells us the person is lying.

 

Is there a chance that *some* women don't report sexual assault to the police? Of course. There's also the chance I could be playing for the Golden State Warriors tomorrow night.

 

you absolutely cannot be a rationally thinking person and believe this crap.  You said yourself, the onus is on the victim to prove the crime.  Rape is one of the most difficult claims to prove unless the victim was severely physically assaulted.  

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8 minutes ago, csmopar said:

that's an assumption based on no evidence.  Plus, every college has their own boards like these and they aren't exclusive to athletes. 

 

But again, the FEMALE ACCUSER chose to take it to that school panel.  She chose to NOT take it to police.  And he would NOT have to be expelled for police to be involved. I'm not sure where you're getting that notion.

 

Your posts pretty much sound like you ARE in fact assuming he's guilty. With nothing to substantiate that notion except a 3-2 decision on a panel...

 

Fair enough. I've allowed myself to become blinded by this whole thing, & I probably shouldn't be such a crybaby about it. Even though this thing has made me really uncomfortable, I am sincere when I say that I ultimately give the Colts' brass the benefit of the doubt when they say that they vetted this situation thoroughly.

 

This whole incident is in the past, & Okereke's in the league now, so the only important thing now is "can he help us beat the Patriots?"

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13 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Chad Kelly should be banned from the league?  I wonder what he has to say about Ballard drafting Okereke..

I was just pondering the difference in reactions myself

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12 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

You're entitled to that opinion, but let's be perfectly clear about something, if Okereke wasn't an athlete, he likely would've been expelled immediately, & then the police would've gotten involved. Not everyone gets to have their fate of a pending rape allegation decided by a panel of snot-nosed Stanford kids of which "ONLY" 3 out of 5 thought he was guilty, twice.

 

I'm not presuming guilt, but it definitely sounds like he at the very least benefitted heavily from a very broken system that's in place at almost all universities nowadays.

 

These are all very dangerous assumptions that you don't know to be true.

 

No one should be expelled immediately due to an allegation, athlete or not. The allegation should be investigated.

 

It's also interesting that the panel approach at Stanford resembles the federal grand jury process. A supermajority must conclude that charges should be brought against the accused, it's a private, secret process to protect the accused person (since charges might not be filed), etc. 

 

And at the end of the day, the reason the police didn't get involved is because the accuser chose not to involve the police, not because Stanford didn't report the allegation. If the accuser reported the encounter, then Okereke's fate would have been determined by the legal system. And to be clear, I'm not dismissing the possibility that any accuser would decline to report an encounter for legitimate reasons. I'm only saying that Okereke's situation was handled by the university because that's how the accuser chose to handle it.

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2 hours ago, egg said:

That's not at all what he said. He said the opposite.

 

His point, is: If she had been raped she should have gone to the police.

 

Yes, I read and understood what he wrote. My point remains that a woman who is raped will not feel comfortable speaking to that poster (Rock####) if he were a member of the police force. There are many who think just like him. 

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9 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

you absolutely cannot be a rationally thinking person and believe this crap.  You said yourself, the onus is on the victim to prove the crime.  Rape is one of the most difficult claims to prove unless the victim was severely physically assaulted.  

 

Agree...rape conviction rates are incredibly low because it is so difficult to prove.

 

The onus is on the victim/prosecution to prove it. Rape victims understand this...which is why many go unreported. Because it's not just an "oh well...I tried" if they fail...there can serious emotional. social and even legal repercussions. 

 

That would be the rational way of looking at it.

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2 hours ago, csmopar said:

There's actually a case being debated now in the appeals courts out west, guy meets girl at bar, both get hammered, both passed out, both woke up next to each other in a hotel, naked.  She called police, filed rape charges saying she doesn't remember consenting.  He also doesn't remember the encounter at all.  Both their BACs were over twice the legal limit, the morning AFTER!  He was charged with rape because his DNA was found in the victim on the grounds that an intoxicated person can't give consent.  Question is, what happens when BOTH parties are intoxicated and sex occurs? By the notion of the charges, she should have been charged with rape as well as him as he couldn't consent because he was intoxicated and blacked out too.

Its just getting to be a dangerous can of worms in the dating scene these days.  

Its not dangerous if you know what drives this.  Ultimately, its a function of the ideology that the woman should have control of every second of every social encounter with a man, to the extreme.   He can even be treated like a sex toy until she says enough. 

 

Before you even ask for consent, try to find out what her ideology is about other topics, and determine if she s the type who cherishes power or cherishes mutual fairness, or even pleasing others (sex would be a strange way to accomplish that), but be prepared to walk away fast and let the next sucker approach her.

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Reading this thread has lowered my IQ by several points.

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3 hours ago, csmopar said:

Yep, plus we don't have the specifics as to what caused her to withdraw it either.  There is a case pending in NY as we speak right now, where the encounter was consentual all the way through, right up until he ejaculated inside of her.  She's filed charges because she told him to pull out first... so its going to be interesting to see how they proceed with it.

 

That seems ridiculous. How can that be proved beyond a reasonable doubt if it is her word against his? I also think it is an unreasonable request unless this is something they agreed to ahead of time.

 

Do you have a source for this? 

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8 minutes ago, Nulled said:

Reading this thread has lowered my IQ by several points.

 

Reading this thread makes me wonder if some of these guys were raised with a certain attitude toward women, or if they developed it after bad experiences with women.

 

I understand there are women out there that cry wolf for whatever reason, but some of these guys seem to be painting all women with a very broad brush.

 

Women have been getting the short end of the stick when it comes to this stuff for basically all of human history (rape didn't even used to be a crime, and still isn't in some parts of the world), but as soon as a few guys get falsely accused of some stuff, certain people are up in arms about it.

 

animation love GIF by Astrid_S

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29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its not dangerous if you know what drives this.  Ultimately, its a function of the ideology that the woman should have control of every second of every social encounter with a man, to the extreme.   He can even be treated like a sex toy until she says enough. 

 

Before you even ask for consent, try to find out what her ideology is about other topics, and determine if she s the type who cherishes power or cherishes mutual fairness, or even pleasing others (sex would be a strange way to accomplish that), but be prepared to walk away fast and let the next sucker approach her.

 

If she has dyed hair that's shaved on the sides, and/or wears glasses with thick, black frames, run away and don't look back. She's a radicalized nutjob straight off of the local college's assembly line.

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31 minutes ago, Jared Jammer said:

 

If she has dyed hair that's shaved on the sides, and/or wears glasses with thick, black frames, run away and don't look back. She's a radicalized nutjob straight off of the local college's assembly line.

IDK, that sounds like it could be a way too hot possibility to rationally back away from......

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1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Reading this thread makes me wonder if some of these guys were raised with a certain attitude toward women, or if they developed it after bad experiences with women.

 

I understand there are women out there that cry wolf for whatever reason, but some of these guys seem to be painting all women with a very broad brush.

 

Women have been getting the short end of the stick when it comes to this stuff for basically all of human history (rape didn't even used to be a crime, and still isn't in some parts of the world), but as soon as a few guys get falsely accused of some stuff, certain people are up in arms about it.

 

animation love GIF by Astrid_S

Except for 1 poster, I think most people in here have been rational.  Of course guys are worried about false allegations.  In a he said/she said case the guy is taking the hit.   Whether innocent or not.  I'm glad I'm not young and hitting the bars and having 1 night stands in todays world (did I say that).  Get drunk, go home or take home a girl who is also drunk.   Do the deed and the worst that happens is you or her feel a bit guilty in the morning.      That was in my time.   You have to be worried about her claiming she didn't give consent today.   Typically drunk heat of the passion sex doesn't include talking.   It's the actions.   If she would push away, you knew to stop.  

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1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

I understand there are women out there that cry wolf for whatever reason, but some of these guys seem to be painting all women with a very broad brush.

I don't know any women who would do this nor men who wouldn't stop when asked.

The woman hate in this thread is disturbing

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35 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I don't know any women who would do this nor men who wouldn't stop when asked.

The woman hate in this thread is disturbing

I agree and it makes me wonder if those who seem to have that rationale would have the same if he was drafted by another team?

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2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

That seems ridiculous. How can that be proved beyond a reasonable doubt if it is her word against his? I also think it is an unreasonable request unless this is something they agreed to ahead of time.

 

Do you have a source for this? 

Not sure if its online, I know of it from our internal memo's on cases our lawyers are watching.

And exactly, how can one prove it?  Even if it was in writing, how does one prove intent in this case?

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As a woman I am going to say something people probably won’t like. Don’t get in a drunken stuper and go back to a strangers room. Especially when both are drunk. You have to be smarter then this and not put yourself in these kind of situation. If the man is drunk and can’t consent it is also rape. To me this was two stupid drunk kids and wasn’t rape.

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49 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I don't know any women who would do this nor men who wouldn't stop when asked.

The woman hate in this thread is disturbing

I dont see women hate in this.  I'm just saying I've dealt with enough to know that while the percentage of false claims are VERY low, they do happen and that is why I say we don't have all the facts and therefore should not judge.

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15 minutes ago, Coltsfan66 said:

I agree and it makes me wonder if those who seem to have that rationale would have the same if he was drafted by another team?

Can't speak for others, but I would.  I said the same thing many times before, such as the Collins case. Or more recently, the Kareem Hunt case.  Innocent until proven guilty.

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2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Can't speak for others, but I would.  I said the same thing many times before, such as the Collins case. Or more recently, the Kareem Hunt case.  Innocent until proven guilty.

I am glad that you at least admit it.   This is such a touchy subject , one I wish there was less of in our country.

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10 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

As a woman I am going to say something people probably won’t like. Don’t get in a drunken stuper and go back to a strangers room. Especially when both are drunk. You have to be smarter then this and not put yourself in these kind of situation. If the man is drunk and can’t consent it is also rape. To me this was two stupid drunk kids and wasn’t rape.

Good advice for anyone.  Women I know have a habit of watching out for each other. Making sure friends get home.  Most women function defensively. It's a habit passed from mother to daughter.

 

I don't think most men do and that says a lot.

 

I don't know if these two had been drinking.  But honestly, if a man walks down the street in a nice suit and gets robbed, do most people dismiss it as 'he was stupid and asking for it?'

 

 

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10 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I dont see women hate in this.  I'm just saying I've dealt with enough to know that while the percentage of false claims are VERY low, they do happen and that is why I say we don't have all the facts and therefore should not judge.

You don't see woman hate in this thread?

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