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chad72

Eberflus' defense is moving towards lot of pattern matching within zone concepts

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You guys need to read these 2 articles, as to how NFL defenses have lost their way by not adapting, very englightening. I see a lot of pattern matching within zone concepts in Eberflus' D. That is why our CBs are not going to be just zone guys. The NFL is different now and offenses are different now from the Dungy's Bucs and Colts days. Read both these articles by Doug Farrar, well written, IMO.  Vic Fangio does a lot of this in his D and that is why his D is largely successful and has adapted to the current NFL.

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/11/06/the-match-game-part-1-how-nfl-defenses-lost-their-way/3/

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/11/08/the-match-game-part-2-how-nick-saban-re-imagined-defensive-coverage/

 

Read Part 1 before reading Part 2. My favorite line from Nick Saban in Part 2 is, "but if their [players] are better than your [players], you can’t play Cover-1".  :default_20smile:

 

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This is why it isn’t going to matter who starts. We will use everyone depending on the situation. Eberflus is a genius.

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One of the key take aways for me is that to play  "young man defense" you really have to have an experienced defense.  Given the limited time the NFL allows for practice, and the number of young players we have, I wonder how much Fluse can really use the concept.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's doing a great job with what he has.

 

On another note, it's kind of funny that the Browns had BB and Saban at one time.

 

 

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Sure helps when the coaches, GM and scouts are all on the same page. 

 

Weird lol 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

One of the key take aways for me is that to play  "young man defense" you really have to have an experienced defense.  Given the limited time the NFL allows for practice, and the number of young players we have, I wonder how much Fluse can really use the concept.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's doing a great job with what he has.

 

On another note, it's kind of funny that the Browns had BB and Saban at one time.

 

 

 

And they were slowly building a really good program.   That coaching staff was great...   the front office...   the support staff...   unreal talent there...

 

And then Art Model announced he was moving the team to Baltimore.   Everything imploded.   The last season was understandably terrible and everyone was fired. 

 

NFL films has a great special on BB’s time there and what happened then and since...   worth your time if you can find it.  

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45 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

And they were slowly building a really good program.   That coaching staff was great...   the front office...   the support staff...   unreal talent there...

 

And then Art Model announced he was moving the team to Baltimore.   Everything imploded.   The last season was understandably terrible and everyone was fired. 

 

NFL films has a great special on BB’s time there and what happened then and since...   worth your time if you can find it.  

 

Belichick, Saban, Kirk Ferentz (long time Iowa head coach), Pat Hill (former Fresno State head coach)... and in the front office, Ozzie Newsome, Michael Lombardi, at one point Dom Anile was there (later connected with Polian in Carolina and Indy, was at times his right hand man), etc. 

 

That team had an amazing group of talent on staff. And then the next HC put together a staff with the Ravens that was just as impressive, and they've had a bunch of assistants move on to bigger positions over the last twenty years. They had a crazy pipeline.

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16 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Belichick, Saban, Kirk Ferentz (long time Iowa head coach), Pat Hill (former Fresno State head coach)... and in the front office, Ozzie Newsome, Michael Lombardi, at one point Dom Anile was there (later connected with Polian in Carolina and Indy, was at times his right hand man), etc. 

 

That team had an amazing group of talent on staff. And then the next HC put together a staff with the Ravens that was just as impressive, and they've had a bunch of assistants move on to bigger positions over the last twenty years. They had a crazy pipeline.

 

Great list!    Thank God for your memory!

 

Three more just jumped to mind...   I think Atlanta GM Thomas Dimitroff was an administrative aide.   A gofer.  So was Rams GM Les Snead.   As well as former Jets coach Eric Mangini.   The list is simply amazing.

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34 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Great list!    Thank God for your memory!

 

Three more just jumped to mind...   I think Atlanta GM Thomas Dimitroff was an administrative aide.   A gofer.  So was Rams GM Les Snead.   As well as former Jets coach Eric Mangini.   The list is simply amazing.

 

Jim Schwartz as well.

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OP is good stuff.

 

This is exactly what I think Ballard and Eberflus want to do, which will resemble the 2012-2014 Seahawks -- Cover 3 with pattern matching, some Cover 1 man, some Cover 2, blitzing situationally, with some NASCAR DL packages. Fast, physical, tough, rangy on the back end, penetrating up front, good tackling, two every down backers... 

 

And Ed Dodds was there while they were building it.

 

Side note: I don't know why I didn't realize it before, but Dodds and Ballard go back to A&M Kingsville together. I always kind of wondered why they were linked to each other, and I think that explains it.

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22 minutes ago, Superman said:

OP is good stuff.

 

This is exactly what I think Ballard and Eberflus want to do, which will resemble the 2012-2014 Seahawks -- Cover 3 with pattern matching, some Cover 1 man, some Cover 2, blitzing situationally, with some NASCAR DL packages. Fast, physical, tough, rangy on the back end, penetrating up front, good tackling, two every down backers... 

 

And Ed Dodds was there while they were building it.

 

Side note: I don't know why I didn't realize it before, but Dodds and Ballard go back to A&M Kingsville together. I always kind of wondered why they were linked to each other, and I think that explains it.

 

It kind of reminds me of how the Chargers never declared their coverages vs Peyton till after post snap. Nowadays, post snap recognition, OL giving you just enough time and QB's legs have gained more traction nowadays. The other counter offenses decide to do is "keep it simple, we will just run it and run it very well to not get caught up in this", something the Patriots did very well last year.

 

Now that defenses get smaller to take away the passing game, the Patriots have gone bigger on OL and front 7, which is why you need to have a defense able to play against all styles of offenses and cannot invest just in one type of LBs or DLs or DBs. 

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1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

It kind of reminds me of how the Chargers never declared their coverages vs Peyton till after post snap. Nowadays, post snap recognition, OL giving you just enough time and QB's legs have gained more traction nowadays. The other counter offenses decide to do is "keep it simple, we will just run it and run it very well to not get caught up in this", something the Patriots did very well last year.

 

Now that defenses get smaller to take away the passing game, the Patriots have gone bigger on OL and front 7, which is why you need to have a defense able to play against all styles of offenses and cannot invest just in one type of LBs or DLs or DBs. 

 

Yeah, just line up and run your play, catch the defense out of position a few times and they'll start getting lined up quickly. Ravens used to do this also.

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14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, just line up and run your play, catch the defense out of position a few times and they'll start getting lined up quickly. Ravens used to do this also.

 

Manning was the master at that. 

 

I'd love to see a stat on how many times he caught the other team with 12 men on the field. 

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17 hours ago, Superman said:

OP is good stuff.

 

This is exactly what I think Ballard and Eberflus want to do, which will resemble the 2012-2014 Seahawks -- Cover 3 with pattern matching, some Cover 1 man, some Cover 2, blitzing situationally, with some NASCAR DL packages. Fast, physical, tough, rangy on the back end, penetrating up front, good tackling, two every down backers... 

 

And Ed Dodds was there while they were building it.

 

Side note: I don't know why I didn't realize it before, but Dodds and Ballard go back to A&M Kingsville together. I always kind of wondered why they were linked to each other, and I think that explains it.

 

There are people on this forum that argued against this last year. How anyone couldn't see where Ballard's vision for the defense was when he brought Dodds in just after the 2017 draft, is incredible. 

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3 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

Manning was the master at that. 

 

I'd love to see a stat on how many times he caught the other team with 12 men on the field. 

 

He was definitely great at catching teams trying to substitute.

 

But sometimes, especially against the Ravens and Chargers, he got sucked into playing the game on their terms. They'd show that "amoeba" defense where they wouldn't really get lined up until late in the play clock, limiting the adjustments that the offense could make in response. I think it would have been better to just line the offense up and run your play quickly, over and over, and keep catching the defense out of position, forcing them to get lined up quickly, then start making your changes.

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2 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

There are people on this forum that argued against this last year. How anyone couldn't see where Ballard's vision for the defense was when he brought Dodds in just after the 2017 draft, is incredible. 

 

I was hopeful, but it wasn't clear. We still had Pagano's defense, we didn't know much about Ballard or what a new staff might look like, etc. But the length of those DBs from the 2017 draft was at least an indication.

 

Then we hired a "Cover 2" coordinator, and played soft vanilla zone defense for the first two months of the season, so it wasn't super obvious early in 2018 either. Some of the coverage adjustments as the year went on made it clear that Eberflus wasn't going to just run Cover 2, and then Ballard's comments after the season and during draft season, culminating in the Rock Ya-Sin pick, kind of sealed it for me. 

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Eberflus  is on the official colts podcast today. Don’t get to hear from him often.

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On 5/29/2019 at 9:56 AM, chad72 said:

You guys need to read these 2 articles, as to how NFL defenses have lost their way by not adapting, very englightening. I see a lot of pattern matching within zone concepts in Eberflus' D. That is why our CBs are not going to be just zone guys. The NFL is different now and offenses are different now from the Dungy's Bucs and Colts days. Read both these articles by Doug Farrar, well written, IMO.  Vic Fangio does a lot of this in his D and that is why his D is largely successful and has adapted to the current NFL.

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/11/06/the-match-game-part-1-how-nfl-defenses-lost-their-way/3/

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/11/08/the-match-game-part-2-how-nick-saban-re-imagined-defensive-coverage/

 

Read Part 1 before reading Part 2. My favorite line from Nick Saban in Part 2 is, "but if their [players] are better than your [players], you can’t play Cover-1".  :default_20smile:

 

I love articles like this. In truth all zones are match concepts, example, if you play a 'traditional' C2 corner and a receiver runs an outside go, you gotta go with him foresaking underneath and the backer has to stretch to the flat.  Anytime a player enters your 'zone' you engage in coverage and better coverage players will even play a little off to try an coax a throw.  In the second example with Beasley, I see an entire defense paying the QB and not the player in their zone.  As the D flows with Prescott Beasley opts for the whip option on his pivot route and it's an easy TD.  I'm not sure how the Jags are teaching zone concepts but that's not how I learned it.  What's seems to me to be different today is mixing combinations of man and zone within in the same call, it's kinda like a box in one defense.  On to part two .... thanks for sharing.

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I think it was Orlovsky that broke this down last year.  He showed several plays where the other team would send a receiver in motion and the Colts D showed zone coverage by not having any defender move with the motion guy but then at the snap of the ball they played man to man coverage with the CBs but the LBers and safeties played zone.  And there were several instances of this with difference combinations, one time the Colts showed man coverage but the DBs all sat in zone but the Lbers played man on the TE and RB.

 

I think the Colts are definitely getting the pieces in place to do this more often and more effectively.

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13 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I think it was Orlovsky that broke this down last year.  He showed several plays where the other team would send a receiver in motion and the Colts D showed zone coverage by not having any defender move with the motion guy but then at the snap of the ball they played man to man coverage with the CBs but the LBers and safeties played zone.  And there were several instances of this with difference combinations, one time the Colts showed man coverage but the DBs all sat in zone but the Lbers played man on the TE and RB.

 

I think the Colts are definitely getting the pieces in place to do this more often and more effectively.

 

Orlovsky dramatized it by saying "Colts' D are a bunch of liars :)" but the fact of the matter was it was part of the pattern matching D they were running. To a bunch of laymen football fans, it would be like "guy goes with him, it is man coverage, otherwise it is zone coverage" but post snap, the experienced QBs get it right away while newbie QBs like Watson take time to learn and process it. That is why blitzes and such pattern matching worked vs a QB like Watson who is still learning. Mahomes and Big Ben just play back yard ball a lot of times (it feels like) and if their OL gives time, most of the time, it is a completion with the strength of their arm to put it in tight windows, you can throw the style of D out of the window at that point once the play breaks down. That is why Mahomes, despite having only about 20 minutes of possession in the AFCCG, still did a lot of damage vs Belichick because his OL started protecting him in the second half. Against us, our players were flat out not beating the Chiefs' players 1-on-1 in the playoff game, so going back to Saban, they could stay with Cover-1 because their DBs were better than our pass catchers for the most part who were not separating.

 

So the old adage (mobile QB or non-mobile QB), if you limit the time for the OL, you limit the options for a QB applies, no matter what style of QB or style of D you play. 

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2 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Orlovsky dramatized it by saying "Colts' D are a bunch of liars :)" but the fact of the matter was it was part of the pattern matching D they were running. To a bunch of laymen football fans, it would be like "guy goes with him, it is man coverage, otherwise it is zone coverage" but post snap, the experienced QBs get it right away while newbie QBs like Watson take time to learn and process it. That is why blitzes and such pattern matching worked vs a QB like Watson who is still learning. Mahomes and Big Ben just play back yard ball a lot of times (it feels like) and if their OL gives time, most of the time, it is a completion with the strength of their arm to put it in tight windows, you can throw the style of D out of the window at that point once the play breaks down. That is why Mahomes, despite having only about 20 minutes of possession in the AFCCG, still did a lot of damage vs Belichick because his OL started protecting him in the second half. Against us, our players were flat out not beating the Chiefs' players 1-on-1 in the playoff game, so going back to Saban, they could stay with Cover-1 because their DBs were better than our pass catchers for the most part who were not separating.

 

So the old adage (mobile QB or non-mobile QB), if you limit the time for the OL, you limit the options for a QB applies, no matter what style of QB or style of D you play. 

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head with that.  And, while I think the Colts were much improved last year, I think the defensive improvement was inflated somewhat because the Colts played some really average to bad QBs that were not good at figuring things out post snap.

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