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What are his attributes that make him looked upon as a 1st round pick for us?  

 

I'm asking this as maybe a comparison to Henry Anderson.  Both are a bit tall for a typical DT, and Henry was projected as strictly a 5T in a 34 Dline, whereas Tillery seems to fit better in our scheme, so it seems.  Keep in mind that Henry was always good against the run, and I believe had 7 sacks last year for the Jets.  

 

I can see where guys like Wilkins, Lawrence, or a pure 3T would have substantially different attributes than Henry, but I can't see where Tillery jumps off the tape as being thought of as something other than a 5T like Henry, so I'm asking the more knowledgeable what I'm missing.

 

Oops:  maybe this belongs in the NFL Draft section.

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It is a valid question. It is how he was played at ND and how Eberflus uses his DL that makes him a fit.

 

Like most comparisons, they compare DTs with long arms to be 5-technique guys, but I feel it can lull you into a false sense of thinking when all the names they bring about are Stephon Tuitt and Richard Seymour, leading to 5-technique comparisons that they cannot play 3-technique. That is not the case.

 

If you looked at it lazily, Margus Hunt would also then be dismissed as a 5-technique and so would Denico Autry. But then, the way Eberflus uses them makes them an asset to our D. Strength and disruption is the big thing but those long arms come in real handy for being loopers in Eberflus' stunts as well. Plus, Tillery has been moved around to DE in 4-man fronts and has played there as well, that adds to his versatility on a DL line up.

 

If you are purely 1-gapping, you need a quick getoff that Tillery has consistently showed, but for our system, also be able to be effective in stunts when you are not the one shooting gaps as well which he has shown too.

 

That is the reason why most of us Colts fans think he will do well on our D. IMO, Eberflus does more than 1-gapping with his DLs, so you have to evaluate fit and versatility along with the attributes of athleticism and production in college. 

 

I hope that helps. However, based on another thread that Superman started, I still feel that when pick No.26 comes around, our best value might end up being with a secondary player. 

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10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

What are his attributes that make him looked upon as a 1st round pick for us?  

 

I'm asking this as maybe a comparison to Henry Anderson.  Both are a bit tall for a typical DT, and Henry was projected as strictly a 5T in a 34 Dline, whereas Tillery seems to fit better in our scheme, so it seems.  Keep in mind that Henry was always good against the run, and I believe had 7 sacks last year for the Jets.  

 

I can see where guys like Wilkins, Lawrence, or a pure 3T would have substantially different attributes than Henry, but I can't see where Tillery jumps off the tape as being thought of as something other than a 5T like Henry, so I'm asking the more knowledgeable what I'm missing.

 

Oops:  maybe this belongs in the NFL Draft section.

Doug. Don’t you think that our 3 tech is in pretty good shape right now.    I was in the crowd to take one with pick one. But after looking at it.   It’s one of our stronger groups 

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13 minutes ago, DerekDiggler said:

Doug. Don’t you think that our 3 tech is in pretty good shape right now.    I was in the crowd to take one with pick one. But after looking at it.   It’s one of our stronger groups 

Maybe I wasn't clear.  Even though Tillery is a great talent, I'm wondering why he isn't being projected more as a 5T in a 34.  Henry was my only reference point for an otherwise good player with the same body type having success in a particular defense.  I'm wondering why Tillery is considered more universal and isn't being relegated to 34 defenses.

 

If he's being viewed as a 3T, then almost every other 3T has a completely different body type, IMO.

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Maybe I wasn't clear.  Even though Tillery is a great talent, I'm wondering why he isn't being projected more as a 5T in a 34.  Henry was my only reference point for an otherwise good player with the same body type having success in a particular defense.  I'm wondering why Tillery is considered more universal and isn't being relegated to 34 defenses.

 

If he's being viewed as a 3T, then almost every other 3T has a completely different body type, IMO.

Oh ok got ya and yes I agree.   I thought you were suggesting converting him to 3 

 

can he play NT?     Will he work in the system Eberflus used at end of The yr with the 2a gap or 2 3tech. Or however that was ran?   

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Because Tillery is at his best when he's put in a position to 1-gap penetrate rather than be responsible for 2 gaps in the run game in addition to a lot of reading and reacting. 

 

His get off is one of the best in the class and he's quick and explosive off the snap. which again, lends itself to aggressive penetration based defense which ours is, rather than on waiting on the run and shedding and stacking Olinemen depending on the read. 

 

IMO Tillery fits 3tech in our system to a T. 

 

BTW Tillery has superlong arms and he actually might be pretty good at 5tech too with some coaching and getting stronger, but IMO it's a waste of a resource if you make him a 5tech. I think he can be a dominant 3 tech penetrator, especially in a system like ours that sends all the dogs to the ball at the snap and they generally play the run on their way to the passer rather than reading and reacting. I think he will shine in a system like that.

 

Athleticism and quickness are not some of the premier attributes for a 5tech(Tillery's best attributes), but rather strength and ability to shoot up your hands onto the Olineman's chest and being able to control him and shed him one way or the other depending on which gap the run is coming from. 

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I think Tillary could actually play a 3-4 DE, very well

 

(Someone that runs a 3-4 may actually grab him for that role)

 

He had 6 Sacks, but 4 were in one game......  he was said to have a torn chest muscle after that which limited him

 

PFF thinks the guy is a world beater..... most "experts" think he is a 25-40 spot in the draft

 

I see a guy has value that can man EITHER 3T or 1T on passing downs.

 

He would get MANY snaps at both spots during the game (IMHO)

 

We will see shortly

 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, stitches said:

Because Tillery is at his best when he's put in a position to 1-gap penetrate rather than be responsible for 2 gaps in the run game in addition to a lot of reading and reacting. 

 

His get off is one of the best in the class and he's quick and explosive off the snap. which again, lends itself to aggressive penetration based defense which ours is, rather than on waiting on the run and shedding and stacking Olinemen depending on the read. 

 

IMO Tillery fits 3tech in our system to a T. 

 

BTW Tillery has superlong arms and he actually might be pretty good at 5tech too with some coaching and getting stronger, but IMO it's a waste of a resource if you make him a 5tech. I think he can be a dominant 3 tech penetrator, especially in a system like ours that sends all the dogs to the ball at the snap and they generally play the run on their way to the passer rather than reading and reacting. I think he will shine in a system like that.

 

Athleticism and quickness are not some of the premier attributes for a 5tech(Tillery's best attributes), but rather strength and ability to shoot up your hands onto the Olineman's chest and being able to control him and shed him one way or the other depending on which gap the run is coming from. 

So then in our defense, we would draft him for 3T and not NT.  I know he could play NT on passing downs (like Hunt did last year), but he'd primarily be viewed as the starting 3T.

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I can't quite put my finger on it but I just have this feeling he will be a bust. I'd MUCH rather have someone like Jeffrey Simmons or Christian Wilkins. 

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10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

So then in our defense, we would draft him for 3T and not NT.  I know he could play NT on passing downs (like Hunt did last year), but he'd primarily be viewed as the starting 3T.

Yeah...  IMO he will be best at 3tech. You can put him at nose too, but again, IMO that's not where he's best at. BTW Eberflus ran a ton of weird fronts last year. For example, we had inordinary amount of snaps with tackles in both A gaps... this is practically us playing with 2 1-Techs. We were also doing a ton of slanting on the defensive line that took some teams by surprise. From what I've read and heard from experts(Cosell, Benoit) he was doing that because he didn't have the requisite talent and athleticism at the interior to make a more conventional alignment work all the time. 

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4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah... we IMO he will be best at 3tech. You can put him at nose too, but again, IMO that's not where he's best at. BTW Eberflus ran a ton of weird fronts last year. For example, we had inordinary amount of snaps with tackles in both A gaps... this is practically us playing with 2 1-Techs. We were also doing a ton of slanting on the defensive line that took some teams by surprise. From what I've read and heard from experts(Cosell, Benoit) he was doing that because he didn't have the requisite talent and athleticism at the interior to make a more conventional alignment work all the time. 

Yeah, Hunt and Sheard played a lot of DT spots.  I wondered if that was by ideal design or out of necessity.

 

Which confuses me as to why Ballard keeps insisting Lewis is a 3T.  He seem to be the perfect replacement for Sheard, who only played 3T out of necessity at times or in certain situations, IMO.

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2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah...  IMO he will be best at 3tech. You can put him at nose too, but again, IMO that's not where he's best at. BTW Eberflus ran a ton of weird fronts last year. For example, we had inordinary amount of snaps with tackles in both A gaps... this is practically us playing with 2 1-Techs. We were also doing a ton of slanting on the defensive line that took some teams by surprise. From what I've read and heard from experts(Cosell, Benoit) he was doing that because he didn't have the requisite talent and athleticism at the interior to make a more conventional alignment work all the time. 

So he would be a rotational plyer as a 3 along with Autry Lewis and Hunt.   Doesn’t seem like very good value for the pick. Our 3 tech is in pretty good shape.  

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15 minutes ago, DerekDiggler said:

So he would be a rotational plyer as a 3 along with Autry Lewis and Hunt.   Doesn’t seem like very good value for the pick. Our 3 tech is in pretty good shape.  

He will be starting at 3tech IMO. Also... Ballard is on the record that he believes in rotating linemen and not letting anyone on the line play more than 65-70% of the snaps in order to keep the players fresh for the full game. 

 

Our 3 tech is OK for next year and they can probably hold the front for next season, but like I've said in other threads - you do not draft in the 1st round for the next year... You draft with the hope and expectation for the player to be integral part of your roster for the next 5-10 years. IMO none of the players we have at 3tech is a long term solution at the position. Maybe Lewis can be, but nothing of what he's shown so far will make me not draft what I consider a potential game changer at the position if I get the chance to do it(and if he's BPA). 

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11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, Hunt and Sheard played a lot of DT spots.  I wondered if that was by ideal design or out of necessity.

 

Which confuses me as to why Ballard keeps insisting Lewis is a 3T.  He seem to be the perfect replacement for Sheard, who only played 3T out of necessity at times, IMO.

He has a vision for Lewis but according to Ballard injuries on the defensive line forced Reich to play Lewis at DE last year. Lewis had a bit of an unfortunate year last year... first he missed a ton of time with an injury and then when he returned he had to play a lot at a position that Ballard didn't draft him to play.

 

I'm willing to give him time to show one way or the other whether he can play 3Tech. But at the same time Lewis is not a player that will make me not draft a high quality 3Tech in the draft if such is available where we pick(Tillery?). I'm of the mind - never let good talent prevent you from acquiring great talent. 

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9 minutes ago, stitches said:

He has a vision for Lewis but according to Ballard injuries on the defensive line forced Reich to play Lewis at DE last year. Lewis had a bit of an unfortunate year last year... first he missed a ton of time with an injury and then when he returned he had to play a lot at a position that Ballard didn't draft him to play.

 

I'm willing to give him time to show one way or the other whether he can play 3Tech. But at the same time Lewis is not a player that will make me not draft a high quality 3Tech in the draft if such is available where we pick(Tillery?). I'm of the mind - never let good talent prevent you from acquiring great talent. 

I can see Lewis at 3T when in specific, lighter pass rush packages, but that's not how I think of a player who is labeled a 3T.  I'm not sure in what context Ballard is talking about Lewis.

 

If Tillery is drafted to play 3T most of the time, who plays NT most of the time?

 

As another has said, I kind of like our 3T roster better than our NT roster, not that you pass up a great talent at 3, but it certainly would still leave questions at N. 

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I like tillery but he may not make it to 26....dremont jones is an interesting pick also

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58 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I think Tillary could actually play a 3-4 DE, very well

When it comes to physical traits, the differences between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT aren't as stark as they were in 2003.  That goes for the personnel of the defenses in general.  Due to it becoming a passing league, physically speaking, they have come much closer together.  So many players can and do both today.    So many defenses blend the physical and schematic elements of both.

 

 

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1 hour ago, #12. said:

When it comes to physical traits, the differences between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT aren't as stark as they were in 2003.  That goes for the personnel of the defenses in general.  Due to it becoming a passing league, physically speaking, they have come much closer together.  So many players can and do both today.    So many defenses blend the physical and schematic elements of both.

 

 

Yep.....

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Tillery had surgery for a torn labrum in March and is expected to have a 3 to 4 month recovery.  Some people think we will slid a little bit in the draft perhaps mid to late 2nd rd because of the surgery.

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5 hours ago, BProland85 said:

I can't quite put my finger on it but I just have this feeling he will be a bust. I'd MUCH rather have someone like Jeffrey Simmons or Christian Wilkins. 

Thanks for the breakdown

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6 hours ago, DerekDiggler said:

So he would be a rotational plyer as a 3 along with Autry Lewis and Hunt.   Doesn’t seem like very good value for the pick. Our 3 tech is in pretty good shape.  

 

Or he may grade as a much better prospect than any of them, and we would see all 3 of them getting more snaps outside than you might be expecting.

 We are building for the long haul.

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5 hours ago, DougDew said:

I can see Lewis at 3T when in specific, lighter pass rush packages, but that's not how I think of a player who is labeled a 3T.  I'm not sure in what context Ballard is talking about Lewis.

 

If Tillery is drafted to play 3T most of the time, who plays NT most of the time?

 

As another has said, I kind of like our 3T roster better than our NT roster, not that you pass up a great talent at 3, but it certainly would still leave questions at N. 

Ballard is on record as saying he thinks 3T is his best position and that’s what they envisioned for him when they drafted him.

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29 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Ballard is on record as saying he thinks 3T is his best position and that’s what they envisioned for him when they drafted him.

If its his best position that's fine, but I still don't think that means he doesn't just rotate in mainly in passing situations.  I can't see him holding up against NFL G/Cs vs the run on a consistent basis.

 

If it worked out where Tillery plays three downs, say 2 at 3T then 1 at NT, I can see Lewis coming in at 3T that one down.  But that's sort of investing three pretty high draft picks (we traded up to take Lewis) just for covering the 3 spot.  We're still down a player at NT for 2 downs.

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2 hours ago, BOTT said:

Thanks for the breakdown

 

I haven't in depth watched him yet, but from his short highlight film, he seems to get pushed around on occasion by bigger OL, and in my opinion he would need to play with other great players around him at the next level so he isn't the focus of attention for the opposing OL. 

 

You watch him compared to Jeffrey Simmons, and you can see the massive difference. 

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Tillery has a lot of position flexibility. He's also smart (class prez) and tough (playing injured). I agree he's much better in certain spots, but the kid can just flat out play solid where ever he lines up. I'd see him as a starter getting at least 50% of the snaps by mid year. If we picked him up, I'd really love our passing downs line up... 

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For what it’s worth...   about six-eight weeks or so ago, Zierlein was taking questions on his twitter feed...     and one question for him caught the eye of a poster here (sorry, don’t remember who?).  

 

The question was for the Colts pick at 26....  Wilkins or Tillery?   At the time, Wilkins was a hot name.   And Zierlein’s answer was Tillery.   Said he had more traits that Ballard values.  He didn’t spell them out,  but I’d assume some would be height, arm length, first step quickness...   

 

That answer has always stuck with me and so I’ve yried to follow Tillery thru the draft process.   

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5 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

Or he may grade as a much better prospect than any of them, and we would see all 3 of them getting more snaps outside than you might be expecting.

 We are building for the long haul.

Too much tied up into the 3 tech.    

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2 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Tillery has a lot of position flexibility. He's also smart (class prez) and tough (playing injured). I agree he's much better in certain spots, but the kid can just flat out play solid where ever he lines up. I'd see him as a starter getting at least 50% of the snaps by mid year. If we picked him up, I'd really love our passing downs line up... 

Tillery is the direction I'd like to see us go at 26. He would be a beast in our D.  The kid can get after the QB at DT or NT and is effective vs the run. When you have trouble sustaining consistent pressure on the QB you don't pass on the opportunity to add a player with his pass rushing ceiling. 

 

I'm not sure how anyone thinks the 3 tech is set. We've not seen Lewis play there and Autry will be 29 to start the season.  The fact that neither guy could stay on the field should be considered. We need a pass rush for this D to go to the next level

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1 hour ago, rock8591 said:

Richard Seymour, here we come.

He seems to have much of the same attributes

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Isn't the main flaw with Tillery the main attribute Ballard considers most important, that being passion for football?   

I do not know but keep reading in the weakness section of his profile that he has "interests outside football."  I am not sure exactly what that means because i would hope most players have interests outside the game.  Luck clearly does and it doesn't affect him so i assume it is something much more with tillery.  I have read that he was committed to the game this last year but is that just to get drafted?

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On 4/4/2019 at 11:39 AM, chad72 said:

It is a valid question. It is how he was played at ND and how Eberflus uses his DL that makes him a fit.

 

Like most comparisons, they compare DTs with long arms to be 5-technique guys, but I feel it can lull you into a false sense of thinking when all the names they bring about are Stephon Tuitt and Richard Seymour, leading to 5-technique comparisons that they cannot play 3-technique. That is not the case.

 

If you looked at it lazily, Margus Hunt would also then be dismissed as a 5-technique and so would Denico Autry. But then, the way Eberflus uses them makes them an asset to our D. Strength and disruption is the big thing but those long arms come in real handy for being loopers in Eberflus' stunts as well. Plus, Tillery has been moved around to DE in 4-man fronts and has played there as well, that adds to his versatility on a DL line up.

 

If you are purely 1-gapping, you need a quick getoff that Tillery has consistently showed, but for our system, also be able to be effective in stunts when you are not the one shooting gaps as well which he has shown too.

 

That is the reason why most of us Colts fans think he will do well on our D. IMO, Eberflus does more than 1-gapping with his DLs, so you have to evaluate fit and versatility along with the attributes of athleticism and production in college. 

 

I hope that helps. However, based on another thread that Superman started, I still feel that when pick No.26 comes around, our best value might end up being with a secondary player. 

Ok, I actually missed this before. 

 

Your comment says a lot about Tillery, but not much about Henry.  Was Henry not quick enough?  he had 7 sacks last year for the Jets, not that he could have done that in our 43.  There is a difference in systems.

 

The talk about Tillery has just brought the thought to me that we traded a good player for a 7th round pick, only to retain a player with a similar body type (Hunt), and talking about drafting another with a similar body type (Tillery).  Yet guys like Ridgeway and Grover sat on the bench, and some think Dexter Lawrence doesn't fit what Elberfus wants to do.  But to me, If we drafted Tillery, it seems like we'd be churning long DTs but only getting just a bit of an upgrade after trading Henry.

 

That's not intended to be a criticism, but since the Jets play a 34 and were the only team willing to offer something for Henry, its seems their is/was something about him that teams felt he was strictly a 34 5T, yet he had 7 sacks last year.  But Tillery and Hunt are viewed differently.  I don't think they are that much quicker, but maybe that's the main difference.

 

Again, this thought never occurred to me until Tillery became part of the conversation.

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Tillery's hand usage from his Junior to Senior seasons was vastly improved, he gets his hands inside and resets the line of scrimmage with his combo of length and speed (he's a big boy 6'6 300 lbs, with room to add to the frame, or trim up and gain athleticism). The improvement from the Junior to Senior seasons leads me to believe that he has a Pro Bowl ceiling, and if the improvement is half as impressive in his move to an NFL Rookie, he's gonna be a steal at the end of the 1st. Jerry has 2 moves that are already indicating NFL dominance, his cross chop and ability to snatch rip opponents. At times he will come a little high off the snap, in terms of his pad level, but there are times when he has it together he looks like Quinnen Williams (see the Stanford game last year, had 4 sacks against a college that puts lineman in the league with regularity). I'm of the opinion that he hasn't even come close to reaching his potential, and under our coaching staff he could be a special player. 

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7 hours ago, rock8591 said:

Richard Seymour, here we come.

Seymour was such a beast. I wouldn't be mad at that at all

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16 hours ago, akcolt said:

Tillery is the direction I'd like to see us go at 26. He would be a beast in our D.  The kid can get after the QB at DT or NT and is effective vs the run. When you have trouble sustaining consistent pressure on the QB you don't pass on the opportunity to add a player with his pass rushing ceiling. 

 

I'm not sure how anyone thinks the 3 tech is set. We've not seen Lewis play there and Autry will be 29 to start the season.  The fact that neither guy could stay on the field should be considered. We need a pass rush for this D to go to the next level

Agree. I think adding Houston opens up the front 4 for a lot of movement, and a lot of different sets. While I think we'd be fine without a stud iDL, I think we'd be much better with one. In short, I don't really think we have gaping holes anywhere on the team, which is a good thing. The two places however I think can impact the point differential most, is iDL and WR......, which is why I'm big on Tillery, and a WR with either the 2nd or 3rd pick.

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4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Seymour was such a beast. I wouldn't be mad at that at all

 

My favorite play he made.

 

 

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3 hours ago, rock8591 said:

 

My favorite play he made.

 

 

Totally worth the fine lol

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7 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Agree. I think adding Houston opens up the front 4 for a lot of movement, and a lot of different sets. While I think we'd be fine without a stud iDL, I think we'd be much better with one. In short, I don't really think we have gaping holes anywhere on the team, which is a good thing. The two places however I think can impact the point differential most, is iDL and WR......, which is why I'm big on Tillery, and a WR with either the 2nd or 3rd pick.

I think it's a mistake not to add a guy who can get after the QB from the interior of the DL like I believe Tillery can. He haa rare traits for an interior lineman. I don't think Ballard would let a guy like that get by us. If Tillery is there and CB sees the same things we do gotta believe that's the pick. 

 

I agree the first half of the roster looks pretty good. We just need to keep adding depth. I'm not sure there are too many WR's in this draft who make an impact as rookies. I'm fine adding one.

 

The pieces I'd like to see added are a S to pair with Hooker. Regardless of what's being said I think we should find Mack some help. I'd love to add Montgomery. We are thin at LB behind Leonard. I'd really like a real threat in the return game 

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Tillery is a scheme fit but not really a special talent.  Dexter Lawrence is an absolute man monster who would instantly make our defense down right scary to face.  But of course, we aren't going to draft him or anyone like him.  We will go with the safe pick in Tillery because he fits the scheme and is pretty boring.  In short...he will fit in well here.  Nevertheless, he needs to work on his press conference interviewing skills and evolve beyond the one word responses.  But...back to football...

 

We will improve on D however at the end of the day, I expect Colts fans will probably see the same kind of defensive results that we are accustomed to.   The Colts will out finesse teams with schemes & stunts but still be unable to knock opposing offenses in the teeth when we really need to.  I won't be mad at the move...I understand the rationale for it...really.  But in my opinion, it will be a missed opportunity to really add a transformative player on D.   I fully expect Ballard to pick Tillery and am prepared to live with it.  Ballard has earned that from me at this point. 

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