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MikeCurtis

The 3 Tech position

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Last year

 

Autry had 9 Sacks and numerous pressures

Ward had 3 Sacks and numerous pressures (In a rotation, at only 6 games)

Hunt had 3 Sacks and numerous pressures

Muhammad had numerous pressures (Just missed at least 2 sacks)

 

Thats 15 sacks .........How much better could that POSITION effectively get?

 

ALL from the 3 Tech position

 

Hunt had additional sacks from the "other DT" position or 1 tech

 

As we know, Lewis was drafted to be 3 tech for the Colts, where he has some positional flexiability

 

SO... now that you have seen the boring stats

 

Do we REALLY need/want a 3 tech in round 1?

 

Autry/Ward/Muhammad/Lewis would seem like a decent rotation

 

If we bring in a Christian Wilkins.... where do we play him?

 

I like Tillary at 26, because he brings enough size / speed to provide Hunt with a rotation at the 1 tech

 

If he is gone, we may go S, LB,(Bush) WR, OT..... OR trade

 

I still think we need a DE to complete this DL

 

Chase W, Joe Jackson, may be there at pick 56...... (Or round 3)

 

Thoughts ? 

 

 

 

 

 

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DL more than just 3-tech is the typical sentiment, could be DE as well. I am not personally ruling out safety or TE either. LB could definitely depend on if any blue chippers fall to #26. 

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Yeah the Colts seem to get production from hybrid players. Autry, Hunt, and Lewis are all DT/DE hybrids. It’s something I’ve never really looked at before until now. Maybe we can get a developmental DT in rounds 2-4. I like Renell Wren and Armon Watts. However a guy like Christian Wilkins is a cant pass up on talent.

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32 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Yeah the Colts seem to get production from hybrid players. Autry, Hunt, and Lewis are all DT/DE hybrids. It’s something I’ve never really looked at before until now. Maybe we can get a developmental DT in rounds 2-4. I like Renell Wren and Armon Watts. However a guy like Christian Wilkins is a cant pass up on talent.

But...... do you sit Autry, slow development of Ward, slow development of Lewis at that spot to get Wilkins on the field 

 

To me already HAVE out 3 tech rotation FULLY covered

 

Wilkins is too slow for DE and not stout enough to cover NT

 

He offers no position flexibility

 

Supposedly, Wilkins is being considered in the teens, so a moot point

 

If Bush is still there........

If C. Ferrel is still there.......

 

You would HAVE to consider

 

If not, and Tillary is gone.... a trade back may be in play

 

 

 

 

 

 

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With Woods gone, NT may be the only glaring need at this point, right?

Other spots could certainly get upgrades, meaning better depth, but if we had to stick with what we got, it's not the end of the world. 

 

Injuries could make you nervous about the S position, there's a lot of uncertainty at WR, but NT seems to be the only hole.

 

We could pretty much go pure BPA early on at this point. Then cover depth.

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I'd say a trade back is unlikely because if the DEs are gone and we decide we don't need a 1 or 3 tech, we can just draft one of the many great but not exceptional CBs there like Murphy/Baker/Williams.  

 

That's also assuming a player at another position wouldn't fall to us.

 

Ballard will get his money's worth at 26.

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I personally would like to see Tillery or Lawrence. I think Lawrence can be much better than what we've seen. They used him on mostly 1&2 and even then he applied a lot of pressure up the gut. 

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

Last year

 

Autry had 9 Sacks and numerous pressures

Ward had 3 Sacks and numerous pressures (In a rotation, at only 6 games)

Hunt had 3 Sacks and numerous pressures

Muhammad had numerous pressures (Just missed at least 2 sacks)

 

Thats 15 sacks .........How much better could that POSITION effectively get?

 

ALL from the 3 Tech position

 

Hunt had additional sacks from the "other DT" position or 1 tech

 

As we know, Lewis was drafted to be 3 tech for the Colts, where he has some positional flexiability

 

SO... now that you have seen the boring stats

 

Do we REALLY need/want a 3 tech in round 1?

 

Autry/Ward/Muhammad/Lewis would seem like a decent rotation

 

If we bring in a Christian Wilkins.... where do we play him?

 

I like Tillary at 26, because he brings enough size / speed to provide Hunt with a rotation at the 1 tech

 

If he is gone, we may go S, LB,(Bush) WR, OT..... OR trade

 

I still think we need a DE to complete this DL

 

Chase W, Joe Jackson, may be there at pick 56...... (Or round 3)

 

Thoughts ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree...DE is the bigger need. More difficult to find legit 4-3 DEs that have the right traits, which means you typically need to draft them early. 

 

Of course they could obviously use more DT players for the rotation..but I don't think they should be prioritizing DT early on. They seem to like converting bigger DEs into DTs...and those types can be found much easier than drafting one early.

 

They could use a 1T...but that player will come off the field for their "green package" on passing downs...when they try to get their four best pass rushers on the field. 

 

 

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Don't take this as a knock of our players, because I don't mean it like that and they played their butts off, but sacks are not all created equal and sacks is not the only production that's important... pressure is more stable year-to-year and generally better sign of pass-rush ability. A lot of those were clean up or coverage sacks, rather than the lineman beating their man. 

 

Also... here's the best reason to go 3tech - we are not drafting for next season. When you draft in the 1st round, you draft with the expectation that this player will be part of your long-term future(5-10 years). Most of those sacks came from players you cannot really expect to be the long-term solution for the team. They might be able to hold the fort for a season or two but even then they are somewhat replaceable and if you get the chance to draft a game changer in a super strong DL draft, I wouldn't hesitate. 

 

With that said IMO EDGE is bigger need than 3T, especially if you believe in Lewis as long term solution at 3T.  But I hate drafting for need so... if there is BPA at 3T at 26 I would still draft him.

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

But...... do you sit Autry, slow development of Ward, slow development of Lewis at that spot to get Wilkins on the field 

 

To me already HAVE out 3 tech rotation FULLY covered

 

Wilkins is too slow for DE and not stout enough to cover NT

 

He offers no position flexibility

 

Supposedly, Wilkins is being considered in the teens, so a moot point

 

If Bush is still there........

If C. Ferrel is still there.......

 

You would HAVE to consider

 

If not, and Tillary is gone.... a trade back may be in play

 

 

 

 

 

 

You put the best players on the field. Wilkins could be part of a rotation or start. Remember Chris Jones of the Chiefs. He didn’t start immediately. He was part of a rotation. Wilkins could do that if necessary. Autry and Hunt won’t be around forever.

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1 hour ago, shastamasta said:

 

 

They could use a 1T...but that player will come off the field for their "green package" on passing downs...when they try to get their four best pass rushers on the field. 

 

 

In most cases you are right, but I believe Tillary has the MOXY to play any of the 3 downs in a rotation with Hunt as a 1 tech

 

Hunt will be better is he has some help as well 

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1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

You put the best players on the field. Wilkins could be part of a rotation or start. Remember Chris Jones of the Chiefs. He didn’t start immediately. He was part of a rotation. Wilkins could do that if necessary. Autry and Hunt won’t be around forever.

 

Respectfully, 

 

I dont see Hunt as a valid argument

 

Wilkins doesnt fit the 1 tech, he doesnt fit either DE spot.... he has ONE position on this team 3 tech

 

Watch tape on Ward and Muhammad.... they are good players... they get penetration (Ward better than Muhammad)

 

They drafted Lewis....... he gets some pressure on the outside, but his more natural position is 3 tech.

 

Autry is 28, going on 29......  I bet he has 3 good years left, epecially if he gets in an actual rotation

 

IMHO we have much bigger holes to fill

 

We have ZERO depth at OT

We dont have a difference maker DE

We have ONE playmaker at WR

We need a SS that can hit and cover

We have ZERO depth at LB

We are a little thin at CB

 

I would hit those, this draft before I brought in another 3 tech

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4 hours ago, chad72 said:

DL more than just 3-tech is the typical sentiment, could be DE as well. I am not personally ruling out safety or TE either. LB could definitely depend on if any blue chippers fall to #26. 

TE would be a surprise, but there are MULTIPLE Safeties that should be available

Chauncy Gardner, Adderly, Abram, or Thornhill ALL have excellent coverage ability AND can (and do) support the run.

 

I hope we select one in our first 3 picks

 

These are the true "erasers" that this defense misses, and arent a liability against the pass

 

 

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Interesting argument here. I think if an Edge is available unexpectedly at 26 the Colts grab him and I wouldn't blame them a bit. Pass Rush is the weak link and the dire need for this team going forward. The better it is, the better the D. You can't have enough.

 

No alpha edge rusher? Then if Tillery is there, I think they take him also. He's a major talent with a high ceiling. Lawrence? I really have a hard time seeing that. He's the epitome of a 3-4 nose tackle. Just not a fit for the 4-3. 

 

But....if the run on D line talent is heavier than we think it will be, the argument for a WR; S; or even OT gets much stronger. CB.....I don't see that. LB.....I doubt that too.

This draft is going to be surprising, unpredictable and totally fun to watch. 

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20 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I

But....if the run on D line talent is heavier than we think it will be, the argument for a WR; S; or even OT gets much stronger. CB.....I don't see that. LB.....I doubt that too.

This draft is going to be surprising, unpredictable and totally fun to watch. 

If we are there at 26 and Clelin , Burns, and Tillary are gone.......

 

If someone offered an early 2nd for this year and next, I would probably take it

(Or draft Chauncy)

 

3 picks in the 2nd could make a huge impact

 

It will be fun this year

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3 hours ago, buccolts said:

With Woods gone, NT may be the only glaring need at this point, right?

Other spots could certainly get upgrades, meaning better depth, but if we had to stick with what we got, it's not the end of the world. 

 

Injuries could make you nervous about the S position, there's a lot of uncertainty at WR, but NT seems to be the only hole.

 

We could pretty much go pure BPA early on at this point. Then cover depth.

A decent NT could be had in the middle of the draft....... BUT.... I dont think they want the traditional FATTY to play the role......

 

I think they want some actual pressure from the NT

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IMHO we have much bigger holes to fill

 

 We have ZERO depth at OT

We dont have a difference maker DE

We have ONE playmaker at WR

We need a SS that can hit and cover

We have ZERO depth at LB

We are a little thin at CB

  

I would hit those, this draft before I brought in another 3 tech

 

Updated

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

A decent NT could be had in the middle of the draft....... BUT.... I dont think they want the traditional FATTY to play the role......

 

I think they want some actual pressure from the NT

Understood. 

Who are your mid round favorites? 

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In regards to the 3-tech/1-tech debates, the Colts really didn't use those traditional roles last year. They opted to put both DT's in the A gaps and get upfield. It remains to be seen whether that was by necessity or will continue going forward.

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I'd say our current depth chart is as follows:

 

LDE: Sheard, Lewis, Muhammad

DT: Hunt, Stewart, Williams

UT: Autry, Ward, Ridgeway

RDE: Houston, Turay, Phillips, Winbush

 

Woods is gone now

Sheard is a FA next year

Ward is a FA next year

Ridgeway is a FA next year

 

 

I see Ballard/Dodds/Hogan drafting AT LEAST one big fatty for DT, one UT and one DE in this draft to challenge for a starting spot and/or improve the 8th, 9th and 10th spots on the depth chart.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, buccolts said:

Understood. 

Who are your mid round favorites? 

Great question

 

My mock draft had other positions being drafted in the middle rounds

 

need to research, or..... we could just get Tillary..... problem solved

 

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6 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

I'd say our current depth chart is as follows:

 

LDE: Sheard, Lewis, Muhammad

DT: Hunt, Stewart, Williams

UT: Autry, Ward, Ridgeway

RDE: Houston, Turay, Phillips, Winbush

 

Woods is gone now

Sheard is a FA next year

Ward is a FA next year

Ridgeway is a FA next year

 

 

I see Ballard/Dodds/Hogan drafting AT LEAST one big fatty for DT, one UT and one DE in this draft to challenge for a starting spot and/or improve the 8th, 9th and 10th spots on the depth chart.

 

 

I wonder if they will give Lewis some reps at UT

 

Ridgeway seems to be a man without a spot

 

Maybe a run at DT vs UT

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25 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I wonder if they will give Lewis some reps at UT

 

Ridgeway seems to be a man without a spot

 

Maybe a run at DT vs UT

I'm sure he'll get some run there, but his playing style and body type is similar to Sheard and just screams his replacement once he leaves in free agency next year.

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I think we should replace Ridgeway with the best 3T on the team (which would be a high round talent) and let the others get their playing time after that.  I think Autry's contract is up after this season.

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I think what the signing of Houston has done is provided  Ballard with flexibility in the draft. I was on board with D line with the 1st 2  out of 3 picks.  However,  the young guys look great in  their training videos.  I know it's workout videos but they look super motivated.  Will Ballard draft D line early as it will take away from the current D linemen reps? He may just see  what he has with this current crop of D linemen. Will b an interesting draft.

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I know he's got some red flags, some very real ones, but I'm starting to really like Dexter Lawrence. I think he's gonna be a special player if he can get it together, but of course that's the knock. On the field, I don't think fit is an issue since we met with him so we clearly like what he does on the field, but again the off the field stuff is something to consider.

Anyways, I think if he's there at #34 we'll look long and hard at him. Personally, I'd be fine with him at #26 if the board doesn't fall our way.

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4 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I know he's got some red flags, some very real ones, but I'm starting to really like Dexter Lawrence. I think he's gonna be a special player if he can get it together, but of course that's the knock. On the field, I don't think fit is an issue since we met with him so we clearly like what he does on the field, but again the off the field stuff is something to consider.

Anyways, I think if he's there at #34 we'll look long and hard at him. Personally, I'd be fine with him at #26 if the board doesn't fall our way.

I have wondered if Lawrence would lose 20 lbs, if he would be a player that could contribute in this defense.

 

I would think that we need some penetration at the DT position to make the line successful...... not just be a wall

 

I would think that there are big guys with some movement in the middle rounds Like Greg Gains or Dontavious Russell, that could be in the rotation with Hunt

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24 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I have wondered if Lawrence would lose 20 lbs, if he would be a player that could contribute in this defense.

 

I would think that we need some penetration at the DT position to make the line successful...... not just be a wall

 

I would think that there are big guys with some movement in the middle rounds Like Greg Gains or Dontavious Russell, that could be in the rotation with Hunt


I do like Gaines, definitely seems like he could provide some pass rush as well. I remember seeing that he impressed in 1 on 1's at the Senior Bowl. Wouldn't be opposed to him at all, could be a very good value depending on where he goes.

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

IMHO we have much bigger holes to fill

 

 We have ZERO depth at OT

We dont have a difference maker DE

We have ONE playmaker at WR

We need a SS that can hit and cover

We have ZERO depth at LB

We are a little thin at CB

  

I would hit those, this draft before I brought in another 3 tech

 

Updated

 

 

I am not sure how short on talent we are at those positions. 

OT  Haeg Clark and Garcia

CB Hairston Collins and Milton

WR Cain Fountain Johnson Pascal Ishmael

LB Adams Franklin Moore 

S Farley Odum

I would agree S needs immediate help but we have young guys for the coaches to work with at the other spots. I’m not saying we shouldn’t add to those groups or upgrades aren’t possible  We are always looking to get better. 

 

This is the plan growing our own. We are going to have to develop the young players. The players at WR CB and LB for the most part are Ballard’s guys. He has said we are always looking to add competition but there isn’t a player on the roster that we do not feel has the talent to be molded into a quality player for this team. Those are his words. 

 

I think we still draft DL heavy. Houston doesn’t change things big picture. We have to find game changing pass rushers. It’s early to tell with Turay Lewis and Ward. The  rest of the roster I think it’s safe to say are not the future of our pass rush. 

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Just conveniently found this list of the top 8 3-tech's in this draft (in the writer's opinion of course).

http://gridironalytics.com/top-8-3-techniques-in-the-2019-nfl-draft-gridironalytics.html

 

8. Rashan Gary 
7. Christian Wilkins

6. Dexter Lawrence

5. Jerry Tillery

4. Dre'Mont Jones

3. Gerald Willis

2. Ed Oliver

1. Quinnen Williams

The one ranking that made me double take was Gerald Willis at #3. He's probably overlooked by most, but at #3? Eh. And I'd probably have Wilkins above Jones, Lawrence, and Tillery.

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Good topic.  And an important one.  

 

Inposted in another thread read that I am wondering what the importance is of the NT if we run the same DL as we ended the season with.   More of 2 - 3 techs and not a true NT over the 1 or zero.  

 

In the cover 2 3 Tech is probably the most important position.   At least 1b if you have a 1a as WDE 

 

Hunt played very well as the 3 last yr at times so I could see he and Autry or Ward and Autry as the double 3s

 

Yes pass rush from inside is a huge need and with Houston signing it will free up more one on ones for the 3tech 

 

gonna be fun to watch 

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9 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Agree...DE is the bigger need. More difficult to find legit 4-3 DEs that have the right traits, which means you typically need to draft them early. 

 

Of course they could obviously use more DT players for the rotation..but I don't think they should be prioritizing DT early on. They seem to like converting bigger DEs into DTs...and those types can be found much easier than drafting one early.

 

They could use a 1T...but that player will come off the field for their "green package" on passing downs...when they try to get their four best pass rushers on the field. 

 

 

3 tech is usually a smaller quicker dlineman. Unless your Warren Sapp who was big and extremely quick which makes him a freak  

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9 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

 

Respectfully, 

 

I dont see Hunt as a valid argument

 

Wilkins doesnt fit the 1 tech, he doesnt fit either DE spot.... he has ONE position on this team 3 tech

 

Watch tape on Ward and Muhammad.... they are good players... they get penetration (Ward better than Muhammad)

 

They drafted Lewis....... he gets some pressure on the outside, but his more natural position is 3 tech.

 

Autry is 28, going on 29......  I bet he has 3 good years left, epecially if he gets in an actual rotation

 

IMHO we have much bigger holes to fill

 

We have ZERO depth at OT

We dont have a difference maker DE

We have ONE playmaker at WR

We need a SS that can hit and cover

We have ZERO depth at LB

We are a little thin at CB

 

I would hit those, this draft before I brought in another 3 tech

Remember we have Al Woods who only plays the Nose. The Colts get good production from hybrid players, but I don’t think that means that every DT they have has to be able to play 2 spots. It could be what they’re doing in the short term until they can find/develop depth at all the positions. It’s a good way to create pass rush when you don’t have dominant DEs  or DTs. 

 

We will I’ll have to see though. It seems like what the Colts want to be defensively is still very much a work in progress. You can’t yet rule out someone like Wilkins because he may only play one position. The Colts are still very young and early into a re-build. We could be looking at a lot of band-aids until Ballard has 4-5 drafts under his belt.

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1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

Remember we have Al Woods who only plays the Nose. The Colts get good production from hybrid players, but I don’t think that means that every DT they have has to be able to play 2 spots. It could be what they’re doing in the short term until they can find/develop depth at all the positions. It’s a good way to create pass rush when you don’t have dominant DEs  or DTs. 

 

We will I’ll have to see though. It seems like what the Colts want to be defensively is still very much a work in progress. You can’t yet rule out someone like Wilkins because he may only play one position. The Colts are still very young and early into a re-build. We could be looking at a lot of band-aids until Ballard has 4-5 drafts under his belt.

 

Aren't you the same guy who ruled out Wilkins because he’ll never fall to 26?

 

Now you say we can’t rule him out.

 

By the way,  it appears your prediction was premature (again).   Wilkins might fall to us.   He showed up at the Combine smaller than expected (6’3”) heavier than expected (315) less athletic than expected (tested poorly) and since you predicted there’s no way he’ll fall to the Colts I’ve seen a growing number of mocks that show him reaching to 26 and beyond.   All the right stuff to 32.

 

Feels like his stock is falling?   You may get your wish after all. 

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16 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Aren't you the same guy who ruled out Wilkins because he’ll never fall to 26?

 

Now you say we can’t rule him out.

 

By the way,  it appears your prediction was premature (again).   Wilkins might fall to us.   He showed up at the Combine smaller than expected (6’3”) heavier than expected (315) less athletic than expected (tested poorly) and since you predicted there’s no way he’ll fall to the Colts I’ve seen a growing number of mocks that show him reaching to 26 and beyond.   All the right stuff to 32.

 

Feels like his stock is falling?   You may get your wish after all. 

6'3, 315, kind of made me throw up in my mouth a bit. Especially the 6'3 for a DT. Very short. He may easily fall to us if that's the case. Depending on how he tested at the combine, I'll be curious if Ballard targets him at 26. He could be the answer to our problems on the D-Line, or he could be outmatched at the NFL level. I'll take a closer look at his combine and pro day to see what I think personally before passing judgment. May be a blessing in disguise for us.

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6 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:


The one ranking that made me double take was Gerald Willis at #3. He's probably overlooked by most, but at #3? Eh. And I'd probably have Wilkins above Jones, Lawrence, and Tillery.

Gerald Willis should be near the bottom 

 

 

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7 hours ago, akcolt said:

I am not sure how short on talent we are at those positions. 

OT  Haeg Clark and Garcia

CB Hairston Collins and Milton

WR Cain Fountain Johnson Pascal Ishmael

LB Adams Franklin Moore 

S Farley Odum

I would agree S needs immediate help but we have young guys for the coaches to work with at the other spots. I’m not saying we shouldn’t add to those groups or upgrades aren’t possible  We are always looking to get better. 

 

This is the plan growing our own. We are going to have to develop the young players. The players at WR CB and LB for the most part are Ballard’s guys. He has said we are always looking to add competition but there isn’t a player on the roster that we do not feel has the talent to be molded into a quality player for this team. Those are his words. 

 

I think we still draft DL heavy. Houston doesn’t change things big picture. We have to find game changing pass rushers. It’s early to tell with Turay Lewis and Ward. The  rest of the roster I think it’s safe to say are not the future of our pass rush. 

Good points
 

My post really wasn't about how bad the team is, I am excited by our roster improvements

We have  few holes, and some lack of depth.

 

With the roster today, if we have 2-3 injuries at key positions, we could miss the playoffs completely

 

 

CB seems like a position that we arent far away from

 

But, like at OT, I dont see a player on the current roster that is going to get groomed to play LT

AC is nearing end of contract

 

I believe that CB will pull the trigger on a OT to develop in the first 3 rounds

 

At WR, we have some young guys, and have hope that they develop into better players, but I truly dont see a game changer coming up , or in the works. Maybe with the youth we get a WR3 or WR4

 

I believe that CB will pull the trigger on a WR in the first 2 rounds

 

At LB, we have some developing youngsters, but if Leonard goes down, for any length of time, we are in serious trouble

 

I believe that CB will pull the trigger on a LB in the first 4 rounds

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Good points
 

My post really wasn't about how bad the team is, I am excited by our roster improvements

We have  few holes, and some lack of depth.

 

With the roster today, if we have 2-3 injuries at key positions, we could miss the playoffs completely

 

 

CB seems like a position that we arent far away from

 

But, like at OT, I dont see a player on the current roaster that is going to get groomed to play LT

AC is nearing end of contract

 

I believe that CB will pull the trigger on a OT to develop in the first 3 rounds

 

At WR, we have some young guys, and have hope that they develop into better players, but I truly dont see a game changer coming up , or in the works. Maybe with the youth we get a WR3 or WR4

 

I believe that CB will pull the trigger on a WR in the first 2 rounds

 

At LB, we have some developing youngsters, but if Leonard goes down, for any length of time, we are in serious trouble

 

I believe that CB will pull the trigger on a LB in the first 4 rounds

 

 

 

 

There isn’t a team that doesn’t have a problem if they lose 2 or 3 guys at a key position. That being said I agree with you on most points. We are thin behind Leonard and needs to be addressed in the draft. I also believe we add a T. as well as help at S. 

 

I don’t see a WR in the first 2 rounds. We have a group of young guys we are developing  and it’s premature to decide none of those guys will reach their ceiling. 

 

For me the strength of this WR class in the middle rounds. If we grab a guy I think it’ll be there. I would love to get Mecole Hardman. I think we see the trenches addressed early. 

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No alpha edge rusher? Then if Tillery is there, I think they take him also. He's a major talent with a high ceiling. Lawrence? I really have a hard time seeing that. He's the epitome of a 3-4 nose tackle. Just not a fit for the 4-3. 

 

I disagree.

Think Vince Wilfork

He played for 13 years in a 4-3 at a very high level and he was a big dude.

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