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1 hour ago, ClaytonColt said:

Well then we miss out on good players and they go to other teams.

 

Just because they haven't panned out for us before doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. The Patriots splashed out on Stephon Gilmore and that worked for them.

 

You can't just ignore a whole swathe of potential recruits because we didn't draft them originally and they are good enough to be expensive. We have to pick good players up from every opportunity available. 

 

And so far, Ballard has been fantastic on that front... When it comes to guys like Collins and Flowers, they are overpriced... First tier of FA is always overvalued. It always makes me laugh when people think we aren't trying to get better when we don't throw whatever money these guys demand at them. I'm not in favor of getting into bidding wars for guys that won't produce for what you are paying them. I'm interesting in finding value. The safety class in FA is thick. It isn't Collins or bust. Flowers, in my opinion, is not an elite pass rusher, and shouldnt be paid like one. I'd rather try and get a second tier player and see what falls in the draft to us. Give Turay another year to develop, and see what happens next year with Demarcus Lawrence, who I absolutely think is worth what he commands. I'm not in favor of a big splash in FA. We can get much better by staying the course.

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4 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

And so far, Ballard has been fantastic on that front... When it comes to guys like Collins and Flowers, they are overpriced... First tier of FA is always overvalued. It always makes me laugh when people think we aren't trying to get better when we don't throw whatever money these guys demand at them. I'm not in favor of getting into bidding wars for guys that won't produce for what you are paying them. I'm interesting in finding value. The safety class in FA is thick. It isn't Collins or bust. Flowers, in my opinion, is not an elite pass rusher, and shouldnt be paid like one. I'd rather try and get a second tier player and see what falls in the draft to us. Give Turay another year to develop, and see what happens next year with Demarcus Lawrence, who I absolutely think is worth what he commands. I'm not in favor of a big splash in FA. We can get much better by staying the course.

I'm not sure they are overvalued, they just get paid a lot. So do top tier guys who come to the end of their original rookie deal though. 

 

I agree on Collins that the safer class is deep however he's still the top of it at his position same as Mosley.

 

To put it another way. If we'd drafted Mosley and Collins and they had put up the production they have to date would you be happy for us to re-sign them at what is perceived to be their market value?

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5 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

I'm not sure they are overvalued, they just get paid a lot. So do top tier guys who come to the end of their original rookie deal though. 

 

I agree on Collins that the safer class is deep however he's still the top of it at his position same as Mosley.

 

To put it another way. If we'd drafted Mosley and Collins and they had put up the production they have to date would you be happy for us to re-sign them at what is perceived to be their market value?

 

The difference between perceived value and actual value is only found on the Free agency market. If a player signs an extension with the team that drafted them, it could be far less than what other teams would throw at them/jack the price up in FA. When you are dealing with a person exclusively, it's a) easier to sign because they aren't being pitched by multiple teams and b) they are your guys... 

 

So yes, I would be fine if we were in the capspace and those guys were on our roster looking for extensions. But they are not. For all we know, they might think Indianapolis sucks and it would take a lot to get them here... 

 

And those guys being at the top, will set the market. I don't think I want Ballard being a market setter, and I know he doesn't either. The talent margin (at the safety position especially) isn't wide enough to deviate from philosophy and go over value on a player.

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12 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

Well then we miss out on good players and they go to other teams.

 

Just because they haven't panned out for us before doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. The Patriots splashed out on Stephon Gilmore and that worked for them.

 

You can't just ignore a whole swathe of potential recruits because we didn't draft them originally and they are good enough to be expensive. We have to pick good players up from every opportunity available. 

Wasn't Gilmore benched last season? I honestly don't know how well he has played during his tenure in NE, but he made a lot of money.

12 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

Well then we miss out on good players and they go to other teams.

 

Just because they haven't panned out for us before doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. The Patriots splashed out on Stephon Gilmore and that worked for them.

 

You can't just ignore a whole swathe of potential recruits because we didn't draft them originally and they are good enough to be expensive. We have to pick good players up from every opportunity available. 

Wasn't Gilmore benched last season? I honestly don't know how well he has played during his tenure in NE, but he made a lot of money.

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1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

The difference between perceived value and actual value is only found on the Free agency market. If a player signs an extension with the team that drafted them, it could be far less than what other teams would throw at them/jack the price up in FA. When you are dealing with a person exclusively, it's a) easier to sign because they aren't being pitched by multiple teams and b) they are your guys... 

 

So yes, I would be fine if we were in the capspace and those guys were on our roster looking for extensions. But they are not. For all we know, they might think Indianapolis sucks and it would take a lot to get them here... 

 

And those guys being at the top, will set the market. I don't think I want Ballard being a market setter, and I know he doesn't either. The talent margin (at the safety position especially) isn't wide enough to deviate from philosophy and go over value on a player.

When players come to the end of their contract they have a pretty good idea of their open market value I would think. I'm not sure home team discounts really exist outside of the Patriots.

 

If they think Indianapolis sucks then that's a different discussion.

 

I suppose I just like the thought of us getting Pro Bowl caliber players from which ever route possible. Draft, trades and free agency.  I think it's difficult to improve if you exclude any aspect of that or limit yourself to just second tier players in free agency just because we didn't draft them in the first place.

 

Agree with you about the safety position but not sure about the MLB position. Having a linebacker corps of Mosley, Leonard & Walker rather than Leonard, Walker and Franklin would seem worth $11m a year to me. 

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1 hour ago, BOTT said:

Wasn't Gilmore benched last season? I honestly don't know how well he has played during his tenure in NE, but he made a lot of money.

Wasn't Gilmore benched last season? I honestly don't know how well he has played during his tenure in NE, but he made a lot of money.

I obviously didn't watch him play every game so I'm not sure but wasn't he PFFs highest graded corner back, a pro bowl selection and a superbowl winner who made the game sealing play?

 

Probably not a bad year all in all. 

  • Haha 1

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5 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

I obviously didn't watch him play every game so I'm not sure but wasn't he PFFs highest graded corner back, a pro bowl selection and a superbowl winner who made the game sealing play?

 

Probably not a bad year all in all. 

1 no idea

2 who cares, it's the pro bowl

3 that pass was a dying quail

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8 hours ago, BOTT said:

Wasn't Gilmore benched last season? I honestly don't know how well he has played during his tenure in NE, but he made a lot of money.

Wasn't Gilmore benched last season? I honestly don't know how well he has played during his tenure in NE, but he made a lot of money.

Not by New England I dont think but I believe he had some issues with Buffalo and got benched there.

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2 hours ago, BOTT said:

1 no idea

2 who cares, it's the pro bowl

3 that pass was a dying quail

Still. Don't think he got benched and probably worth every dime he got paid. Can't ask much more.

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On 3/8/2019 at 10:30 AM, ClaytonColt said:

Agree with you about the safety position but not sure about the MLB position. Having a linebacker corps of Mosley, Leonard & Walker rather than Leonard, Walker and Franklin would seem worth $11m a year to me. 

 

Possibly. I'd be more in favor of this and finding a safety and wide receiver in the 2nd and 3rd windows of FA, and then focusing on d-line and defensive back in the draft rather than going after Collins and Flowers. 

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On 3/8/2019 at 10:30 AM, ClaytonColt said:

  I think it's difficult to improve if you exclude any aspect of that or limit yourself to just second tier players in free agency just because we didn't draft them in the first place.

 

I don't agree on this. And I'm 100% positive Ballard wouldn't agree on this. I absolutely think you can stay out of the first wave of FA every single year and get better. We did last year, without any doubt. I think we did under Bill Polian. I know we can build a perennial championship roster by placing high priority on the draft/developing and raising our own, while simultaneously finding value in FA and at various points in the year as we have been under Ballard.b

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1 minute ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I don't agree on this. And I'm 100% positive Ballard wouldn't agree on this. I absolutely think you can stay out of the first wave of FA every single year and get better. We did last year, without any doubt. I think we did under Bill Polian. I know we can build a perennial championship roster by placing high priority on the draft/developing and raising our own, while simultaneously finding value in FA and at various points in the year as we have been under Ballard.b

Sure you can. Luck is 30.  How long would it take. When we are as close as we are and only need a couple pieces you do get them if they fit in the locker room.

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

Sure you can. Luck is 30.  How long would it take. When we are as close as we are and only need a couple pieces you do get them if they fit in the locker room.

 

I don't know, one more year? Ha. We are closer than we have been since Luck has been here, using a completely different philosophy and path than the previous administration, and all of a sudden everyone wants to change course and go bonkers in Free agency. It's funny man. It's just funny to me. 

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8 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I don't know, one more year? Ha. We are closer than we have been since Luck has been here, using a completely different philosophy and path than the previous administration, and all of a sudden everyone wants to change course and go bonkers in Free agency. It's funny man. It's just funny to me. 

 

Sure Ballard's philosophy is to draft and build from within, but I think a lot of people on here are getting his philosophy in FA wrong. From interviews I've heard he puts a value on a player and sticks to it. Then if that values is there and they fit the locker room then he will bring them in. 

 

With our cap situation in addition to being striking distance of a SB I don't see bringing in an elite FA is going bonkers. If a top FA meets Ballard's requirements then I think he will pull the trigger. Only Ballard knows tho. 

 

Mosley will be worth every penny he gets. He's a first round draft pic who's performed as advertised. Imo he has no business even hitting free agency. Unfortunately with other more pressing needs I don't see us getting Mosley. But if Ballard decides to build strength on strength like the rams did last year with Suh and the browns just did with Vernon I'm all for it. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, creid said:

 

Sure Ballard's philosophy is to draft and build from within, but I think a lot of people on here are getting his philosophy in FA wrong. From interviews I've heard he puts a value on a player and sticks to it. Then if that values is there and they fit the locker room then he will bring them in. 

 

With our cap situation in addition to being striking distance of a SB I don't see bringing in an elite FA is going bonkers. If a top FA meets Ballard's requirements then I think he will pull the trigger. Only Ballard knows tho. 

 

Mosley will be worth every penny he gets. He's a first round draft pic who's performed as advertised. Imo he has no business even hitting free agency. Unfortunately with other more pressing needs I don't see us getting Mosley. But if Ballard decides to build strength on strength like the rams did last year with Suh and the browns just did with Vernon I'm all for it. 

 

 

 

I don't know about "pressing needs". Linebacker is pretty up there, especially if (god forbid) Leonard would be out for a game or two. We saw that this year, and it wasn't pretty. 

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1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I don't know about "pressing needs". Linebacker is pretty up there, especially if (god forbid) Leonard would be out for a game or two. We saw that this year, and it wasn't pretty. 

 

Well I think secondary, pass rush and WR are more of a need. But ya I agree with you 100% we are thin at LB. We really just need more playmakers on D in general. 

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