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Lawrence Owen

PFF & Football outsiders agree on Marlon Mack.

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Both PFF and Football Outsiders ranked Marlon Mack as on of the best RB's in the NFL at Yards after Contact.  I think what a lot of people do not see is how Mack makes just sleight moves to avoid full contact and run through arm tackles at or near the line of scrimmage.  What most of us see is when he is hit full force, and Mack is stopped in his tracks.  Even then though, he does fall forward the majority of the time.  Mack's physical size and statue requires him to be elusive.  And if you watch his tape closely, he does so ever so slightly when he's about to make contact with someone, especially running through a hole at the line of scrimmage.  

Also we saw a lot of him trying that same move in the open field against DB's, and it didn't work against them because they are normally nimble enough to make those sleight corrections, where linebackers and linemen have a harder time.  He Discovered much later in the season, and into the playoff's  he had to make more drastic cuts vrs those type of defenders.

With that knowledge and growth, I fully expect an even better 2019 season from Mack.

Hopefully Mudd can also work with Rathman some, and get Mack better at catching a screen pass.  This was something the Colts did very well when Mudd was the O-line coach rhe first time around.

Mack yac.jpg

Mack Dvor.png

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But everyone says we need a big pounding back lol. Seems Mack is doing just find pounding the ball.

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They still need a bigger back to provide relief/alternatives to Mack. And regardless of Mack's abilities, they need a fourth back for depth. Look for one in the draft .

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2 minutes ago, Hoose said:

They still need a bigger back to provide relief/alternatives to Mack. And regardless of Mack's abilities, they need a fourth back for depth. Look for one in the draft .

We have Hines and Wilkins who were rookies and both had good years. Hines had some pretty great moments. A late round draft pick is fine. Everyone wanting to go get one in FA is wrong. We have other needs we can spend that money on.  Also we have a fourth back that hasn’t played and the colts seem to like him a lot.

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2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

We have Hines and Wilkins who were rookies and both had good years. Hines had some pretty great moments. A late round draft pick is fine. Everyone wanting to go get one in FA is wrong. We have other needs we can spend that money on.  Also we have a fourth back that hasn’t played and the colts seem to like him a lot.

Wait one minute, I want a FA RB more than a late round one. An undrafted Free Agent. :banana:

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2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

We have Hines and Wilkins who were rookies and both had good years. Hines had some pretty great moments. A late round draft pick is fine. Everyone wanting to go get one in FA is wrong. We have other needs we can spend that money on.  Also we have a fourth back that hasn’t played and the colts seem to like him a lot.

Jonathan Williams, 6'0" and 223, ran well in the SEC - if I'm not mistaken injuries at other spots kept him from dressing all but one game. Ballard has been pretty bullish on him and his abilities.

 

Though he spoke like that about Matt Jones last year and he proceeded to draft 2 rookies and cut him! Lol

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2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

But everyone says we need a big pounding back lol. Seems Mack is doing just find pounding the ball.

I wouldn't call following Nelsons blocks pounding the ball. He slips through the line more than pounding. There will come a time when we need that RB that can pound the ball without fumbling the ball.

Missing Frank Gore every game.

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2 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Oh, and sorry I'm not on here as much.  My new career keeps me busy.  But from time to time, I promise to visit, and make my presence known with a tidbit here and there for everyone :)

Miss you all,....keep up the great convo's!

I’ve had the pleasure to listen to your podcasts.   I hope everyone gets a chance to listen.     With that said. I am not as much a fan of Mack as you are.   We can do much better 

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52 minutes ago, DerekDiggler said:

I’ve had the pleasure to listen to your podcasts.   I hope everyone gets a chance to listen.     With that said. I am not as much a fan of Mack as you are.   We can do much better 

That's fine.  We all like different things.  Is why it is a discussion.  But thanks for your support! I'm always up for debates, as long as they are kept intellectual, and don't get so heated someone pop's off and says something that attacks the other person's character because they don't agree.  There are people everywhere like that. :(

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3 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Oh, and sorry I'm not on here as much.  My new career keeps me busy.  But from time to time, I promise to visit, and make my presence known with a tidbit here and there for everyone :)

Miss you all,....keep up the great convo's!

 

You're doing a Podcast?

 

Am I the last to learn this?

 

Tell us MORE!!

 

And a belated, but heartfelt CONGRATULATIONS!!

 

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4 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

But everyone says we need a big pounding back lol. Seems Mack is doing just find pounding the ball.

 

We do. 

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2 hours ago, PuntersArePeopleToo said:

Wait one minute, I want a FA RB more than a late round one. An undrafted Free Agent. :banana:

 

Both late round picks AND udfa rb's have done so well for us. haha

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're doing a Podcast?

 

Am I the last to learn this?

 

Tell us MORE!!

 

And a belated, but heartfelt CONGRATULATIONS!!

 

Thank you.

But I'm not allowed to talk about it on forums.

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7 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

Jonathan Williams, 6'0" and 223, ran well in the SEC - if I'm not mistaken injuries at other spots kept him from dressing all but one game. Ballard has been pretty bullish on him and his abilities.

 

Though he spoke like that about Matt Jones last year and he proceeded to draft 2 rookies and cut him! Lol

I just watched some clips of Williams.  Seemed decent in 2015

 

But 3 years at 97 total yards. Its tough for me to get excited

 

 

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5 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

We do. 

Agreed. We DO need a big back as a change of pace back

 

I like Mack. I get the value of RB by committee approach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Thank you.

But I'm not allowed to talk about it on forums.

 

5 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Thank you.

But I'm not allowed to talk about it on forums.

Which is strange IMO. Other sites get quotes on here all the time. Not sure why yours is any different.     I found your podcast on another Colt site.  Good stuff 

 

i especially liked your FA WR breakdowns on the last one.   

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12 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

But everyone says we need a big pounding back lol. Seems Mack is doing just find pounding the ball.

Really, you don't know the difference between yards after contact and pounding the ball?

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I was a big proponent of signing Bell, until Mack's second game back this year.  While I think Bell would help the Colts I don't think he provides anything significantly better than Mack.  Bell and Mack would make a better 1-2 punch than Mack and Wilkins. Like the OP stated, it's the slight moves he makes in the hole that is most impressive, the guy has ball bearings in his hips or something.  But there were games where his impact was minimized and it was just because his running style and the Colts blocking scheme did not match up well against the D the Colts were playing.

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Mack's only knack is that he can get into an injury bug that sits him out a few games at a time. But it's football. I really do like Mack, but I think we need another guy that can also pound it like Turbin did for us. I was hoping Wilkins would be someone similar to that but he was buried on the depth chart and saw little action. 

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12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I wouldn't call following Nelsons blocks pounding the ball. He slips through the line more than pounding. There will come a time when we need that RB that can pound the ball without fumbling the ball.

Missing Frank Gore every game.

 

It is interesting to look at the graphic in the OP.  He gets the most yards after contact off the right tackle, then left tackle, then left guard, then left between guard and C.  He averages over a full yard less running off the RG than the LG.  I am sure some of this has to do with his running style, but you are probably right about Nelson's contribution here considering he's getting 3.25-3.3 yards after contact behind him compared to 2.19 yards after contact behind the RG.

 

Frank Gore is one of the GOATs, for sure.  And he consistently got through the hole and picked up positive yards with a much worse line than what Mack had last year, so maybe this isn't a fair comparison.... but, in both 2016 and 2017 Gore only had 1 carry over 20 yards (he had 5 in MIA last year, so maybe it's solely a line thing)... Mack, in 11.5 games last year had 6 games with at least a 20 yard carry (in his rookie year as Gore's back up he had 5 games with at least a 20 yard carry, so maybe it isn't just an OL thing).

 

Anyway, in this Frank Reich offense, I think Mack brings more of a threat to break a big run than what I saw from Gore during his time here.  There are situations where I think it'd be nice to have a guy like Gore (e.g., 4th and 1, goal line from the 1, etc.), but overall, I don't think there is too much to miss about Gore in this scheme and think Mack has done a pretty admiral job filling in for him.

 

1 hour ago, a06cc said:

Only problem with Mack is his health. 

 

I really don't think this is a major issue.  He had a nagging hamstring injury from training camp and probably came back a week too early and tweaked it in week 2.  When he came back week 6 and on, he never had any health issues and he ran very strong in the post-season, too.

 

I think with another year of NFL Strength & Conditioning and another off-season understanding how to prepare for the 16+ game NFL schedule, he'll be fine going forward.

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1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Frank Gore is one of the GOATs, for sure.  And he consistently got through the hole and picked up positive yards with a much worse line than what Mack had last year, so maybe this isn't a fair comparison.... but, in both 2016 and 2017 Gore only had 1 carry over 20 yards (he had 5 in MIA last year, so maybe it's solely a line thing)... Mack, in 11.5 games last year had 6 games with at least a 20 yard carry (in his rookie year as Gore's back up he had 5 games with at least a 20 yard carry, so maybe it isn't just an OL thing).

 

I think you didn't understand my meaning with Frank Gore.

I wasn't talking about having runs over 20 yards. I was talking goal line. Not only did Gore pound the ball into the end zone he also caught passes he took to the end zone.

Don't get me wrong as I like Mack a lot on this offense but IMO we still need that FB/RB type player who will run over defenders.

There is something said about having a pounder and what it does mentally to the defenses getting pounded on.

On a side note:  I think Tom Rathman would love to have a pounder. 

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1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

I think you didn't understand my meaning with Frank Gore.

I wasn't talking about having runs over 20 yards. I was talking goal line. Not only did Gore pound the ball into the end zone he also caught passes he took to the end zone.

Don't get me wrong as I like Mack a lot on this offense but IMO we still need that FB/RB type player who will run over defenders.

There is something said about having a pounder and what it does mentally to the defenses getting pounded on.

On a side note:  I think Tom Rathman would love to have a pounder. 

 

I think when I read that you missed Gore every day, I thought you meant that you'd rather have Gore than Mack on this team.

 

I agree, it'd be nice to have a guy who can pound the rock in situations where it is needed.  However, I think it'll be tricky to get that.  Mack has become our featured back and I think after learning from Gore for a year it was time for him to take the reigns.  And although Gore's workload has been reduced (he's now about a 10-12 carry/game guy instead of a 16-18 carry/game guy like he was for us), I don't see a thumper coming in that often to replace Mack.  I say that because usually when we're spelling Mack, it's to put in Hines as almost a Darren Sproles type (comparison to Reich's Philly O).  

 

I am sure Rathman would like to have a pounder as well, but in this offense, I think the guy has to be someone who is willing to be looking at 5-10 snaps a game (not necessarily 5-10 carries/game).  I could be wrong, but I just don't see Reich's offense operating primarily with a guy who is just a pounder, he'd have to accept the only time he would see the field is in short yard situations.

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13 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I think when I read that you missed Gore every day, I thought you meant that you'd rather have Gore than Mack on this team.

 

I agree, it'd be nice to have a guy who can pound the rock in situations where it is needed.  However, I think it'll be tricky to get that.  Mack has become our featured back and I think after learning from Gore for a year it was time for him to take the reigns.  And although Gore's workload has been reduced (he's now about a 10-12 carry/game guy instead of a 16-18 carry/game guy like he was for us), I don't see a thumper coming in that often to replace Mack.  I say that because usually when we're spelling Mack, it's to put in Hines as almost a Darren Sproles type (comparison to Reich's Philly O).  

 

I am sure Rathman would like to have a pounder as well, but in this offense, I think the guy has to be someone who is willing to be looking at 5-10 snaps a game (not necessarily 5-10 carries/game).  I could be wrong, but I just don't see Reich's offense operating primarily with a guy who is just a pounder, he'd have to accept the only time he would see the field is in short yard situations.

We need a ponder to use in Dec. and Jan.  There will be times when the weather conditions will limit what can be done with Mack. The Colts are a dome team and need the toughness to play outside as well. I don't understand why there is a problem with wanting a pounder on the team with you?

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1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

We need a ponder to use in Dec. and Jan.  There will be times when the weather conditions will limit what can be done with Mack. The Colts are a dome team and need the toughness to play outside as well. I don't understand why there is a problem with wanting a pounder on the team with you?

 

There isn't a problem with wanting a pounder on the team with me.  You initially said you miss Gore everyday.  The gist of my reply was, it was time for Gore to move on and for Mack to take the reigns of this team.  Gore is still a primary back or very close to it, someone of his caliber likely doesn't want to play on a team where he only sees the ball on 3rd/4th and 1 and the goal line.  

 

As I said in my previous post.  It would be nice to a pounder for certain situations, but that guy would have to be someone who knew his primary role on the team, with this offense, would be to see the field very little since we have a primary back in Marlon who will get the bulk of carries and the primary change of pace guy is Hines who is used as a receiver and a Sproles-type.  

 

I think with the quality OL we have, Marlon is just fine and weather wouldn't limit him any more than it would a true pounder.  The use for a pounder on this team would be a guy to pick up a 4th and 1 or a goal-line situation.  Otherwise, a guy who is simply a pounder would not be used very much in this offense. 

 

We may already have our pounder in Jonathan Williams (or maybe Rathman is going to work hard on coaching Jordan Wilkins into being able to use his size to be a pounder in certain instances, that is Wilkins' major knock is he runs smaller than he is).  To go out and look for a true pounder, we probably would have a hard time getting an elite guy or a guy of Gore's level, we'd have to find someone willing to accept that his playing time would be limited to very specific situations.

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13 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

There isn't a problem with wanting a pounder on the team with me.  You initially said you miss Gore everyday.  The gist of my reply was, it was time for Gore to move on and for Mack to take the reigns of this team.  Gore is still a primary back or very close to it, someone of his caliber likely doesn't want to play on a team where he only sees the ball on 3rd/4th and 1 and the goal line.  

 

As I said in my previous post.  It would be nice to a pounder for certain situations, but that guy would have to be someone who knew his primary role on the team, with this offense, would be to see the field very little since we have a primary back in Marlon who will get the bulk of carries and the primary change of pace guy is Hines who is used as a receiver and a Sproles-type.  

 

I think with the quality OL we have, Marlon is just fine and weather wouldn't limit him any more than it would a true pounder.  The use for a pounder on this team would be a guy to pick up a 4th and 1 or a goal-line situation.  Otherwise, a guy who is simply a pounder would not be used very much in this offense. 

 

We may already have our pounder in Jonathan Williams (or maybe Rathman is going to work hard on coaching Jordan Wilkins into being able to use his size to be a pounder in certain instances, that is Wilkins' major knock is he runs smaller than he is).  To go out and look for a true pounder, we probably would have a hard time getting an elite guy or a guy of Gore's level, we'd have to find someone willing to accept that his playing time would be limited to very specific situations.

Wilkins' problem is he doesn't consistently carry high and tight.  A lot of times his forearm drops, and the nose of the ball comes down away from his body as he is running, giving an open space for defenders to get their hands on the ball and wedge it out of his grasp.

Until he learns to protect the football better with his fundamentals, his roles will be limited.

As a runner, he is absolutely fabulous.  He has some of the smoothest cuts I've ever seen.

But you are a bit right that he doesn't carry his weight and size the way most his size do.  But neither did Eric Dickerson.  Very similar running styles for bigger backs. (NOT saying Wilkins is in any way as good as Dickerson was).

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8 minutes ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Wilkins' problem is he doesn't consistently carry high and tight.  A lot of times his forearm drops, and the nose of the ball comes down away from his body as he is running, giving an open space for defenders to get their hands on the ball and wedge it out of his grasp.

Until he learns to protect the football better with his fundamentals, his roles will be limited.

As a runner, he is absolutely fabulous.  He has some of the smoothest cuts I've ever seen.

But you are a bit right that he doesn't carry his weight and size the way most his size do.  But neither did Eric Dickerson.  Very similar running styles for bigger backs. (NOT saying Wilkins is in any way as good as Dickerson was).

 

Yes, I agree with you.  Not only does the way he run often make him seemingly running smaller than his size, but it also makes him prone to fumbling.  I think that's why he saw little or no action during spurts this past season (e.g., after he fumbled in Miami he saw 0 carries in that game, and 0 carries and only 1 receiving target the next two games).

 

I tend to agree with you, he is a very fluid runner and has a lot of upside.  Because of that, I don't know he has a great natural fit as a 'pounder,' but he certainly seems to have the size and build to be one.  He certainly needs some improvements on fundamentals this offseason and moving forward, and I think he's got a lot of potential to be a good RB in the league.  Rathman was a pounder (as a fullback) often running or blocking in front of another pounder (Roger Craig).  I could see why @crazycolt1 could see Rathman wanting us to have a pounding RB.  I don't know, perhaps Wilkins or Williams on our current roster are being coached into being that type of guy.

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19 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

We have Hines and Wilkins who were rookies and both had good years. Hines had some pretty great moments. A late round draft pick is fine. Everyone wanting to go get one in FA is wrong. We have other needs we can spend that money on.  Also we have a fourth back that hasn’t played and the colts seem to like him a lot.

 

See I disagree here.  A good (not elite) RB is cheap especially in comparison to other positions.  

 

I don't want to drop an arm and a leg on Bell.

 

But you can get Jay Ajayi, Tevin Coleman, Mark Ingram, CJ Anderson.

 

Any of those guys could be had for less then 7 mil.  Quite frankly the market for CJ Anderson is so low for some reason you could probably get him for 3 or 4.  Maybe less.

 

The only downside is that guys like Ingram and Anderson are only good for maybe 2 more years and Ajayi and Coleman might be good for 4 and that's about it.  

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1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

There isn't a problem with wanting a pounder on the team with me.  You initially said you miss Gore everyday.  The gist of my reply was, it was time for Gore to move on and for Mack to take the reigns of this team.  Gore is still a primary back or very close to it, someone of his caliber likely doesn't want to play on a team where he only sees the ball on 3rd/4th and 1 and the goal line.  

 

As I said in my previous post.  It would be nice to a pounder for certain situations, but that guy would have to be someone who knew his primary role on the team, with this offense, would be to see the field very little since we have a primary back in Marlon who will get the bulk of carries and the primary change of pace guy is Hines who is used as a receiver and a Sproles-type.  

 

I think with the quality OL we have, Marlon is just fine and weather wouldn't limit him any more than it would a true pounder.  The use for a pounder on this team would be a guy to pick up a 4th and 1 or a goal-line situation.  Otherwise, a guy who is simply a pounder would not be used very much in this offense. 

 

We may already have our pounder in Jonathan Williams (or maybe Rathman is going to work hard on coaching Jordan Wilkins into being able to use his size to be a pounder in certain instances, that is Wilkins' major knock is he runs smaller than he is).  To go out and look for a true pounder, we probably would have a hard time getting an elite guy or a guy of Gore's level, we'd have to find someone willing to accept that his playing time would be limited to very specific situations.

I was referring to the style of Gore running ability. Not Gore himself. Very rarely did Gore not get a yard or two when needed. There were times last season Luck ended up throwing on 2nd or 3rd down at the goal line.

If we want to use RBBC we need that pounder. Mack is a great RB but we also need to limit his carries as to keep him healthy.  I am not saying we need to draft one or sign one as a free agent, we just need one no matter how he is obtained.

We are slowly killing that perception that the Colts are soft and having a RB that can't be stopped at the goal line would stop that perception all together.

Our defense already has shown to be tough, now it's time for the offense to do the same.

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I think our backfield is solid but if there a chance we can get CJ Anderson we need to take it. He's phenomenal for his price.

 

Mack is amazing on his own. Just needs to stay healthy. Hines needs to catch the ball and Wilkins needs to hold on to it.

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20 hours ago, DerekDiggler said:

I’ve had the pleasure to listen to your podcasts.   I hope everyone gets a chance to listen.     With that said. I am not as much a fan of Mack as you are.   We can do much better 

I hope people are liking my post because of Lawrence’s pod cast and not for my opinion on Mack.    Although I’m right HA

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13 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

I just watched some clips of Williams.  Seemed decent in 2015

 

But 3 years at 97 total yards. Its tough for me to get excited

 

 

True statement. The irony he has been a Bills and a Saints pre-season stud only to be 4th on the depth chart - just like with us. Kinda weird if you ask me...

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On NFLN.  Just heard Reggie Bush say colts should sing Petersen.  

 

Thoughts concerns comments!!!

 

he could be a good mentor and he still produces.    And he needs a ring   We can get him one 

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6 minutes ago, DerekDiggler said:

On NFLN.  Just heard Reggie Bush say colts should sing Petersen.  

 

Thoughts concerns comments!!!

 

he could be a good mentor and he still produces.    And he needs a ring   We can get him one 

I just don't think it'll happen.  Ballard let go of Frank, he is solid short yardage though.  I just don't think Ballard would go there, even on a deal on the cheap.

But I do like Peterson, and think he could still be a viable help to a team.

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