Robert Kraft Charged in Prostitution Probe

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

That's true, but not everything that is illegal is necessarily "wrong", and not everything that is legal is necessarily "right".

Agreed 

   

[luv_pony_express]

8 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Wow.  So u r a billionaire and u need to pay a prostitue!??!?!

 

Wasn’t it Charlie Sheen who, when asked why he paid for sex, said “I’m not paying them for the sex, I’m paying them to leave afterwards.”?

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, esmort said:

 

It's a nice saying, but surely you know that is not reality. All illegal acts are not created equal ... not only are there varying degrees of illegality, some things that are technically illegal shouldn't be (by any reasonable standard) and some laws are so outdated they aren't even actively enforced. I know you can't really believe that it is that black and white.

Stop 

   For many they can’t just pick and choose what laws to abide by

 

 

  That is why people vote and get involved with their community and even run for office

2 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

Wasn’t it Charlie Sheen who, when asked why he paid for sex, said “I’m not paying them for the sex, I’m paying them to leave afterwards.”?

Sounds like a Sheenism

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, esmort said:

 

That wouldn't change anything except driving it deeper underground and raising the profits for the pimps/illegal organizations. Sex, drugs, liquor and similar vices can't be legislated out of existence ... you would have much more success going the other way and legalizing it.

I disagree.    Legalizing would only help those who are concerned in not breaking the law, which would increase the numbers.   The sex traffickers wouldn't stop trafficking the women and children for that purpose.      Even Amsterdam has sex traffickers.   Harsh punishment is the only deterrent. 

[esmort]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Stop 

   For many they can’t just pick and choose what laws to abide by

...

  That is why people vote and get involved with their community and even run for office

 

 

I am assuming from your previous posts you are a teacher ... teaching is not held to such a high lofty standard that the profession doesn't have some latitude in disregarding some laws. Jaywalking(to use an extreme example) isn't going to get you fired. In a lot of places even a misdemeanor arrest for soliciting isn't even going to get you fired(especially if it happened out of state and wasn't public knowledge)... on the flip-side I am sure there are several things that aren't illegal you could do that would get you fired.  Many things fall somewhere in the middle and thus my point .. in reality it is not as simple as illegal - not illegal.

 

Voting or even being in office doesn't automatically change bad or outdated laws. Most people disregard some laws from time to time; which laws and where you live is going to be what determines whether you are a "criminal" or not.

[PrincetonTiger]

32 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

I am assuming from your previous posts you are a teacher ... teaching is not held to such a high lofty standard that the profession doesn't have some latitude in disregarding some laws. Jaywalking(to use an extreme example) isn't going to get you fired. In a lot of places even a misdemeanor arrest for soliciting isn't even going to get you fired(especially if it happened out of state and wasn't public knowledge)... on the flip-side I am sure there are several things that aren't illegal you could do that would get you fired.  Many things fall somewhere in the middle and thus my point .. in reality it is not as simple as illegal - not illegal.

 

Voting or even being in office doesn't automatically change bad or outdated laws. Most people disregard some laws from time to time; which laws and where you live is going to be what determines whether you are a "criminal" or not.

   Elected Officials can and often do change laws they do not like

 

When you break a law no matter how you feel about you are a law breaker

 

 

 

[esmort]

20 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I disagree.    Legalizing would only help those who are concerned in not breaking the law, which would increase the numbers.   The sex traffickers wouldn't stop trafficking the women and children for that purpose.      Even Amsterdam has sex traffickers.   Harsh punishment is the only deterrent. 

 

You are only going to marginally change demand by increasing penalties. Prohibition and the war on drugs show that demand will remain even with increased penalties.  If the death penalty cant stop crimes, murder, drugs (in several places), etc ... even the harshest penalty that would be reasonably considered would not stop the sex trade.  Alcohol, drugs, and sex (anything that offers an "escape" or a "high") ... are "punishment proof" as far as trying to outlaw people buying them.

[PeterBowman]

59 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

Wasn’t it Charlie Sheen who, when asked why he paid for sex, said “I’m not paying them for the sex, I’m paying them to leave afterwards.”?

I'm "positive" it would be Sheen.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

[RollerColt]

39 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

I am assuming from your previous posts you are a teacher ... teaching is not held to such a high lofty standard that the profession doesn't have some latitude in disregarding some laws. Jaywalking(to use an extreme example) isn't going to get you fired. In a lot of places even a misdemeanor arrest for soliciting isn't even going to get you fired(especially if it happened out of state and wasn't public knowledge)... on the flip-side I am sure there are several things that aren't illegal you could do that would get you fired.  Many things fall somewhere in the middle and thus my point .. in reality it is not as simple as illegal - not illegal.

 

Voting or even being in office doesn't automatically change bad or outdated laws. Most people disregard some laws from time to time; which laws and where you live is going to be what determines whether you are a "criminal" or not.

 

I will say this, as teachers are considered public officials and are reprenstatives of their schools and community, we have a set of professional standards we are expected to adhere to, even outside of the classroom. I mostly agree with you that minor offenses are usually not grounds for a firing, even in Krafts case. But believe me, teachers can be placed on administrative leave and then later removed at the start of the contract year far easier than you think. In the districts I have worked in, the standards are indeed lofty. 

 

Kraft owns the Patriots, and therefore is a part of the private sector. I would figure it would take the NFL’s entire ownership along with Goodell to somehow make a decision to remove him, and even then it’s not that simple. 

 

I’m definitely not refuting your argument, law is complicated because humans are complicated. It’s the reason we have the 4th and 5th amendments (thank goodness). 

[crazycolt1]

9 hours ago, JimJaime said:

Irsay had a problem, a very bad problem.  That he seemed help for and I think he has been sober ever since?  I personally never bashed the man for it, we all have our demons. (That’s not to say I liked him I always found him annoying but that’s me.)

 

as for this this I really don’t care.  Prostitution been around forever and the fact we still have it illegal just allows the wrong people profit off of it. 

Yes prostitution has been around forever but this human trafficking involves mostly minor females that have been kidnapped from their homes and families.

Now quit trying to minimizing Krafts involvement till all the facts are brought out.

[esmort]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Yes prostitution has been around forever but this human trafficking involves mostly minor females that have been kidnapped from their homes and families.

Now quit trying to minimizing Krafts involvement till all the facts are brought out.

 

Isn't it supposed to work the opposite of that? (Innocent until proven guilty)

[PrincetonTiger]

15 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

 

I will say this, as teachers are considered public officials and are reprenstatives of their schools and community, we have a set of professional standards we are expected to adhere to, even outside of the classroom. I mostly agree with you that minor offenses are usually not grounds for a firing, even in Krafts case. But believe me, teachers can be placed on administrative leave and then later removed at the start of the contract year far easier than you think. In the districts I have worked in, the standards are indeed lofty. 

 

Kraft owns the Patriots, and therefore is a part of the private sector. I would figure it would take the NFL’s entire ownership along with Goodell to somehow make a decision to remove him, and even then it’s not that simple. 

 

I’m definitely not refuting your argument, law is complicated because humans are complicated. It’s the reason we have the 4th and 5th amendments (thank goodness). 

You are so correct

   My parents taught and/or coached in the same corporation for 87 years combined and everyone in the communities new me and/or the family name so I was never invited(included) or went to anything questionable 

    I was also not allowed to go to/speak at School Board Meetings

[PrincetonTiger]

6 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Isn't it supposed to work the opposite of that? (Innocent until proven guilty)

Doesn’t work that way in the age of the internet 

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, esmort said:

 

Isn't it supposed to work the opposite of that? (Innocent until proven guilty)

 

Making excuses minimizing what he did one way or another is being bias.

No where did I say anything negative about Kraft so your comment aimed at me has no bearing.

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

18 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Doesn’t work that way in the age of the internet 

 

Or with Michelle Beadle.

[esmort]

22 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Making excuses minimizing what he did one way or another is being bias.

No where did I say anything negative about Kraft so your comment aimed at me has no bearing.

 

 

It does have bearing ... you are supposed to have a "bias" towards innocence. You didn't make a statement about everyone stop making assumptions before all the facts are out.  The very fact your statement was made only at a defender to stop "minimizing it" shows you assume guilt (which was exactly my point).

 

Don't get me wrong I love when the Patriots and their fans are miserable and Kraft caught in a massage parlor is priceless; but this Kangaroo court of public opinion (for everything lately not just Kraft) is getting ridiculous. So far we only know he went a massage parlor for a quickie, but some people are already trying to tie him to a sex trafficking ring. Accusations like that do need to be "minimized" until they are proven.

 

 

[oldunclemark]

5 hours ago, Freenyfan102 said:

I was taught to pay for everything by check. Maybe Kraft should have done that

Jerry Springer paid with a check one time...……..just not smart

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, esmort said:

 

It does have bearing ... you are supposed to have a "bias" towards innocence. You didn't make a statement about everyone stop making assumptions before all the facts are out.  The very fact your statement was made only at a defender to stop "minimizing it" shows you assume guilt (which was exactly my point).

 

Don't get me wrong I love when the Patriots and their fans are miserable and Kraft caught in a massage parlor is priceless; but this Kangaroo court of public opinion (for everything lately not just Kraft) is getting ridiculous. So far we only know he went a massage parlor for a quickie, but some people are already trying to tie him to a sex trafficking ring. Accusations like that do need to be "minimized" until they are proven.

 

 

Unless @crazycolt1 has moved and/ changed his profession he can be biased

 

   They only people that can’t are the Court Officials involved in the case

[PrincetonTiger]

Here is a question:

   Will RK go to trial or plead out

 

      Too bad CourtTV is gone

[Lucky Colts Fan]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

   Will RK go to trial or plead out

 

If there is video evidence of him committing a crime, his lawyers will definitely work out a deal with the prosecutor.

[crazycolt1]

23 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

It does have bearing ... you are supposed to have a "bias" towards innocence. You didn't make a statement about everyone stop making assumptions before all the facts are out.  The very fact your statement was made only at a defender to stop "minimizing it" shows you assume guilt (which was exactly my point).

 

Don't get me wrong I love when the Patriots and their fans are miserable and Kraft caught in a massage parlor is priceless; but this Kangaroo court of public opinion (for everything lately not just Kraft) is getting ridiculous. So far we only know he went a massage parlor for a quickie, but some people are already trying to tie him to a sex trafficking ring. Accusations like that do need to be "minimized" until they are proven.

 

 

Where in my comment did I say anything about his guilt or innocence?  Where in my comment did I maximize or minimize what he did?

Where in my comment was I negative or positive?

So,  your comment aimed at me has no merit.

[esmort]

5 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Unless @crazycolt1 has moved and/ changed his profession he can be biased

 

   They only people that can’t are the Court Officials involved in the case

 

I think you are purposely trying to be obtuse now.

 

He is the one who brought up bias and made a comment insinuating that he wasn't biased because he didn't say anything negative about Kraft.  If he is in fact biased toward guilt (as you suggest is his right) and not withholding judgement(as he seemed to suggest) until further evidence than he should not chastising someone for being biased toward innocence from a perceived moral high ground. 

 

The fact that assumption of innocence is not required of the public does not change the spirit the right. It would be pretty horrible if everyone was guilty until proven innocent, and the court of public opinion is making that slippery slope more of a reality.

[PrincetonTiger]

10 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

If there is video evidence of him committing a crime, his lawyers will definitely work out a deal with the prosecutor.

Turn “State’s Evidence????”

[PrincetonTiger]

4 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

I think you are purposely trying to be obtuse now.

 

He is the one who brought up bias and made a comment insinuating that he wasn't biased because he didn't say anything negative about Kraft.  If he is in fact biased toward guilt (as you suggest is his right) and not withholding judgement(as he seemed to suggest) until further evidence than he should not chastising someone for being biased toward innocence from a perceived moral high ground. 

 

The fact that assumption of innocence is not required of the public does not change the spirit the right. It would be pretty horrible if everyone was guilty until proven innocent, and the court of public opinion is making that slippery slope more of a reality.

Stop

  Public bias is not new

       It is the reason for every social change in history 

[Iron Colt]

If he paid for sex with a sex slave, that's going to be a real problem for him and the league.

If they were underage, it's an even bigger problem obviously. I can't imagine the flack that organization, the league and him personally would recieve from everybody, including the  NFLPA(Zeke Elliott?)if he isn't severely punished.

 

Of course, he's innocent until proven guilty. 

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

I think you are purposely trying to be obtuse now.

 

He is the one who brought up bias and made a comment insinuating that he wasn't biased because he didn't say anything negative about Kraft.  If he is in fact biased toward guilt (as you suggest is his right) and not withholding judgement(as he seemed to suggest) until further evidence than he should not chastising someone for being biased toward innocence from a perceived moral high ground. 

 

The fact that assumption of innocence is not required of the public does not change the spirit the right. It would be pretty horrible if everyone was guilty until proven innocent, and the court of public opinion is making that slippery slope more of a reality.

I didn't suggest anything. Now quit assuming what I meant and insinuating what I said by turning it into something that was never said in the first place.

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, Iron Colt said:

If he paid for sex with a sex slave, that's going to be a real problem for him and the league.

If they were underage, it's an even bigger problem obviously. I can't imagine the flack that organization, the league and him personally would recieve from everybody, including the  NFLPA(Zeke Elliott?)if he isn't severely punished.

 

Of course, he's innocent until proven guilty. 

The NFL, MLS, Patriots and Revolution could have a major image problem

[PrincetonTiger]

Here is a kicker

   It is being reported by media

   In 2015 RK gave 100,000 to an anti-trafficking charity in Massachusetts 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

10 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Turn “State’s Evidence????”

 

I doubt he ever ends up testifying in a court room.

 

His lawyers are probably good enough that he will end up with some fluffy sentence like "house arrest from 11pm-7am for two weeks"

[esmort]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Stop

 

Wouldn't want to shatter the illusion of your good guy/bad guy, black and white world.

 

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Here is a kicker

   In 2015 RK gave 100,000 to an anti-trafficking charity in Massachusetts 

 

[NorthernBlue]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Here is a kicker

   In 2015 RK gave 100,000 to an anti-trafficking charity in Massachusetts 

Optics. 

Trash organization run by trash people

[esmort]

6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I didn't suggest anything. Now quit assuming what I meant and insinuating what I said by turning it into something that was never said in the first place.

 

It was obvious from your comment, when you lecture one side to wait and "stop minimizing" but are curiously quiet to all the outrageous comments from the other side...hmmm.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

It was obvious from your comment, when you lecture one side to wait and "stop minimizing" but are curiously quiet to all the outrageous comments from the other side...hmmm.

Now who is being obtuse?  You are ridiculous.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Now who is being obtuse?

 

This triangle: 

[PrincetonTiger]

25 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Wouldn't want to shatter the illusion of your good guy/bad guy, black and white world.

 

 

I am not a rule breaker-one of my faults

    There are several laws that I find issue with but will violate them

     I try to personally change them and/or support people that will

[Narcosys]

14 hours ago, GoPats said:

 

This is disappointing and, on a personal level, pretty disgusting, but I think a lot of people are making a bit of a leap here insinuating that Kraft would be aware of the status of any of these women. Soliciting, versus being involved in human trafficking, are two very, very different things. Plus if you're going to apply the moral compass to Kraft how can you ignore some of the things Irsay has done? Seriously? That's the ultimate case of hypocrisy if you want to go there, but whatever.

 

I'm not happy. I don't condone it. But let's not make this more than it really is because, itself, it's bad enough. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you seriously comparing drug use/addiction to prostitution and being complicit in human trafficking.

 

You say he isn't aware of the status of these girls...? Do you know many prostitutes who are there of their own free will and can leave whenever they want? 

 

Even though its stereotypical, the asian community is known for having woman stuck in sexual servitude, being promised transportation and a life in a new place and then having their passports taken and making them "work off" their contracts. It is prevalent with Taiwanese, Filipinos, and other Asian girls that work in prostitution. Yes I know this because I lived in South Korea for a year and was made very clear to stay away from any girls working in juicy bars and other such less reputable businesses that are everywhere in many South Korean cities. The same happens in US, as many girls are sent all over the world, not just South Korea

 

So to say he had no clue is disingenuous, at best was being wilfully ignorant (seemingly like yourself). 

 

Give me a break here. 

[JimJaime]

9 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Making excuses minimizing what he did one way or another is being bias.

No where did I say anything negative about Kraft so your comment aimed at me has no bearing.

 

Ya but I never minimized what he did. What you quoted was me saying (from what we know) it didn’t bother me.  Could that change? Of course but right now an old widower getting a happy ending a couple of times isn’t earth shattering or awful to me.

[Nadine]

I've been trying to figure out what happens for the women who were victimized in these 'spas'

 

Near as I can determine, they have to be certified as victims.  This means they need to be willing to cooperate. Cooperation is dicey because trafficked people fear corruption and reprisals from all sorts of sources including not wanting their families to know what happened to them.

 

Anyway, they have 13 mandarin interpreters working with these women and it appears that 2 are willing to cooperate https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/martin-county/2019/02/19/live-martin-county-sheriffs-office-holds-news-conference-multi-agency-investigation/2914137002/

 

They keep stressing that the investigation is ongoing.  They have some work to do to break this thing down and I don't think it will be easy. They are up against a large and wealthy criminal enterprise.

 

This investigation began 8 months ago with a complaint to the health department https://www.nbc-2.com/story/39993598/2-florida-women-accused-of-running-sex-trafficking-rings-out-of-day-spas

 

Multiple law enforcement agencies are involved.  The Jupiter police were able to make progress on the investigation because of customer reviews being posted on a website https://www.thisisinsider.com/rubmapscom-jupiter-police-sex-trafficking-sting-2019-2

 

Federal law enforcement and homeland security have been following the money and say they they never imagined that there would be this much money involved. Millions have been seized so far. 10s of millions involved so far.

 “tracking money from China into the United States and laundering it here and sending it back other places to be laundered.”

 

They said they operate these places like franchises. Like drug dealers, shutting down one is just a cost of doing business for the operators.

 

Law enforcement has their work cut out for them.  

 

The major players arrested so far have charges of human trafficking, racketeering, unlawful transportation for the purposes of prostitution, deriving support from and engaging in prostitution. https://www.tcpalm.com/picture-gallery/news/crime/indian-river-county/2019/02/21/human-trafficking-indian-river-county-spas-major-players/2942287002/

 

'johns' who have been charged so far have not been arrested as near as I can determine. I wonder if any of them will have information useful to investigating this criminal enterprise. 100s of charges so far and the investigation is ongoing