Caleb3502

Report: Trey Flowers Will Not be Tagged

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Flowers as well as Dante Fowler Jr. should also be available.  I would be happy will Flowers and Robert Quinn when he is released.  Those two would be great additions.  I can see Quinn getting double digit sacks again moving back to DE. 

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B careful of anything the Patriots let go of.  He is a very gòod overall D end.  That being said, he is a great fit for the Pats as they do so many different things on D.  Not sure his skill set fits this D

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I just feel like he's Sheard all over again with a higher price tag.

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20 minutes ago, krunk said:

I just feel like he's Sheard all over again with a higher price tag.

 

Agreed I'd rather have Z'Darius Smith from Baltimore. He will be cheaper and I think he's a better pass rusher. 

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Im suspect any time Hoodie doesnt resign someone.

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35 minutes ago, krunk said:

I just feel like he's Sheard all over again with a higher price tag.

He is four years younger than Sheard.  That's a lot. If he fits and performs he could become a fixture on the team for a long time.  At least we now have an opportunity to sign a quality young talent if Ballard thinks he's a good fit.  

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If he sets the edge, plays 100% every down, hurries the QB multiple times a game and gets 5-10 sacks then I think that is a great signing to replace Sheard in a year.

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1 hour ago, krunk said:

I just feel like he's Sheard all over again with a higher price tag.

 

 If you had watched him more you Couldn't believe that.
He is considerably more powerful. That is obvious.
 And for some reason he gets to the QB at a higher rate, and even better at protecting his edge.
 If Sheard is a 7, Flowers is a 8.5

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

B careful of anything the Patriots let go of.  He is a very gòod overall D end.  That being said, he is a great fit for the Pats as they do so many different things on D.  Not sure his skill set fits this D

 

 If we just liked ends that could move inside at times, and was also very good at stunts, then we could use him.  :wall:

 

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2 hours ago, richard pallo said:

He is four years younger than Sheard.  That's a lot. If he fits and performs he could become a fixture on the team for a long time.  At least we now have an opportunity to sign a quality young talent if Ballard thinks he's a good fit.  

Yeah. Sheard was a rotational piece in NE, never a main starting end that has played very well here as a starter. Flowers is a big time free agent that the Pats don't want to lose, but in typical Patriots fashion, don't want to pay either. I think Flowers would be a big time difference maker on this defense. 

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13 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

If he sets the edge, plays 100% every down, hurries the QB multiple times a game and gets 5-10 sacks then I think that is a great signing to replace Sheard in a year.


Amen. The question is, what is Flowers worth in the open market? $12-13m per year? More? Gonna have to shell out to get a quality player like that. They rarely hit FA. But this is where the Colts could truly upgrade the front 7 on D. 

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15 hours ago, CR91 said:

Im suspect any time Hoodie doesnt resign someone.

 

15 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

B careful of anything the Patriots let go of.  He is a very gòod overall D end.  That being said, he is a great fit for the Pats as they do so many different things on D.  Not sure his skill set fits this D

 

Belichick is in everyone's head.

 

Since the Patriots traded Chandler Jones, he's put up 11, 17 and 13 sacks, and hasn't missed a game.

 

Also, not tagging him doesn't mean they don't want him and won't re-sign him at some point. But if he hits the market, anyone interested will have to pay the pass rusher tax, so he'll be "overpaid." The question is whether he's the right kind of player for your system, your team, and can upgrade your defense.

 

As for fitting him into our defense, I don't see it as a problem. He played all over the line for the Pats, but mostly on the edge. We move our DL around for down and distance, playing over and under fronts, and putting a premium on penetration and edge discipline. He's not your prototypical RDE who just blows around the corner and chases the QB, but in many ways he's better because of his versatility, motor, and ability to stay on the field virtually every down.

 

If they don't re-sign him before free agency, the Colts should be on the phone with him on Day 1.

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19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

Belichick is in everyone's head.

 

Since the Patriots traded Chandler Jones, he's put up 11, 17 and 13 sacks, and hasn't missed a game.

 

Also, not tagging him doesn't mean they don't want him and won't re-sign him at some point. But if he hits the market, anyone interested will have to pay the pass rusher tax, so he'll be "overpaid." The question is whether he's the right kind of player for your system, your team, and can upgrade your defense.

 

As for fitting him into our defense, I don't see it as a problem. He played all over the line for the Pats, but mostly on the edge. We move our DL around for down and distance, playing over and under fronts, and putting a premium on penetration and edge discipline. He's not your prototypical RDE who just blows around the corner and chases the QB, but in many ways he's better because of his versatility, motor, and ability to stay on the field virtually every down.

 

If they don't re-sign him before free agency, the Colts should be on the phone with him on Day 1.

 

What about Jamie Collins? Hes done nothing in cleveland. Nate Solder? Horrible year in New Year. 

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5 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

What about Jamie Collins? Hes done nothing in cleveland. Nate Solder? Horrible year in New Year. 

 

Each one has to be evaluated individually. Peyton picked on Jamie Collins with Julius Thomas and old man Owen Daniels as TEs in the 2013 and 2015 AFCCG. Belichick got what he could on that front. Nate Solder and countless others, Belichick continues to stockpile compensatory picks.

 

As long as Belichick and Brady, and their OL coach Scar and OC Josh McDaniels are together, everyone else is expendable. 

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1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

Each one has to be evaluated individually. Peyton picked on Jamie Collins with Julius Thomas and old man Owen Daniels as TEs in the 2013 and 2015 AFCCG. Belichick got what he could on that front. Nate Solder and countless others, Belichick continues to stockpile compensatory picks.

 

As long as Belichick and Brady, and their OL coach Scar and OC Josh McDaniels are together, everyone else is expendable. 

 

But thats my point. Their all system players at the end of the day. Unless you're Edleman or Mccourty who really buy into the "patriot way" 

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8 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

What about Jamie Collins? Hes done nothing in cleveland. Nate Solder? Horrible year in New Year. 

 

Free agents from any team can bomb.

 

I'm not sure why people think Collins and Solder have bombed; Collins was injured in 2017, but had a nice season last year, and Solder had a rough few weeks but rebounded quickly and had a good season as well. 

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

But thats my point. Their all system players at the end of the day. Unless you're Edleman or Mccourty who really buy into the "patriot way" 

 

Is he a good player, or not? Would he fit your team, or not? Evaluate honestly, watch the tape, look at what he does, how he's used, and what his strengths and weaknesses are, and consider how that would work on your team. Do your homework on his character and work ethic.

 

Then, if you like what you come up with, find out what his number is.

 

The other stuff is irrelevant. If you like him and the money works, it doesn't matter where he comes from.

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Free agents from any team can bomb.

 

I'm not sure why people think Collins and Solder have bombed; Collins was injured in 2017, but had a nice season last year, and Solder had a rough few weeks but rebounded quickly and had a good season as well. 

 

Collins was traded. Nice year? Browns fans have called on him a liable. There are other outlets suggesting ways to move on from Collins. He is not the star player he was in NE

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15 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 If you had watched him more you Couldn't believe that.
He is considerably more powerful. That is obvious.
 And for some reason he gets to the QB at a higher rate, and even better at protecting his edge.
 If Sheard is a 7, Flowers is a 8.5

Sack numbers no different. Sheard avg was about 8 sacks or less per year. And this was true particularly at the beginning of his career.  And he never got more than that. Some mild differences. I think Flowers is the same type guy. Hed help the team certainly but i dont think hes worth an insane contract. I do think hed fit the culture. Sure!

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Just now, Superman said:

 

Is he a good player, or not? Would he fit your team, or not? Evaluate honestly, watch the tape, look at what he does, how he's used, and what his strengths and weaknesses are, and consider how that would work on your team. Do your homework on his character and work ethic.

 

Then, if you like what you come up with, find out what his number is.

 

The other stuff is irrelevant. If you like him and the money works, it doesn't matter where he comes from.

 

And thats fine. You would like to think GMs actually do that instead of going by reputation. Look im not saying Flowers will bust, im just saying there might be buyer's remorse when it comes to players from NE 

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Collins was traded. Nice year? Browns fans have called on him a liable. There are other outlets suggesting ways to move on from Collins. He is not the star player he was in NE

 

They owe him $10.5m in 2019. He's probably not worth that much, he's 30 years old, and Browns fans/media feel like he hasn't lived up to his $50m contract, and the guaranteed money is finally paid out. I get why they've singled him out, but he had a bounce back season in 2018.

 

It's also the Browns, who have been the most mismanaged team in professional sports for a long time now.

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4 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

And thats fine. You would like to think GMs actually do that instead of going by reputation. Look im not saying Flowers will bust, im just saying there might be buyer's remorse when it comes to players from NE 

 

Ballard appears to be sufficiently cautious with free agents, so I'm not too worried about him not doing his due diligence.

 

I'm just saying there's this misconception, IMO, that if Belichick doesn't want a player then he must be damaged goods, and that hasn't proved to be true in every case. 

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Ballard appears to be sufficiently cautious with free agents, so I'm not too worried about him not doing his due diligence.

 

I'm just saying there's this misconception, IMO, that if Belichick doesn't want a player then he must be damaged goods, and that hasn't proved to be true in every case. 

 

Maybe not every case, but its still worth mentioning. 

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15 hours ago, richard pallo said:

He is four years younger than Sheard.  That's a lot. If he fits and performs he could become a fixture on the team for a long time.  At least we now have an opportunity to sign a quality young talent if Ballard thinks he's a good fit.  

I made no age comparison. My comparison is production related. He is what sheard was before coming to Indy only at a much higher price tag.  Sheard may have even had better numbers in fact. I think youd get that same production out of Preston Smith for lesser dollars. I wouldnt cry if we got Flowers but i think 7-8 sacks a year is what he is and maybe less.

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Evaluate every player individually. Don't do the lazy thing of assuming a player will be good/bad for another team because he was good/bad for the Pats. Trust your evaluation of the players. Noone bats 1000 in this league, including Belichick, including Ballard... 

 

If Ballard likes Flowers and is willing to outbid other teams, I'm all for it. Flowers seems like a really really good player. 

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the tag number would be huge for flowers, they only use it when its a good deal

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19 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

the tag number would be huge for flowers, they only use it when its a good deal

 

The tag number would artificially set his market. They still have three weeks in which they exclusively can negotiate with him (according to the rules). By tagging him, they'd be bidding against themselves, and they'd set the market at $19m/year, with guarantees that at least match consecutive tags. 

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On 2/19/2019 at 11:32 AM, Superman said:

Is he a good player, or not? Would he fit your team, or not? Evaluate honestly, watch the tape, look at what he does, how he's used, and what his strengths and weaknesses are, and consider how that would work on your team. Do your homework on his character and work ethic.

 

Exactly.  To add, I'm certain Kevin Rogers, Jon Shaw and their team have already completed full pro scouting reports on him and every other potential FA already completed. That's their job.

 

Thus Ballard and the coaching staff have perused them and established targeting certain players.  Maybe the Pro scout team and coaches have already approached CB about them and he'll set budgetary ranges for them.  When the 'legal tampering' period for Free Agents begins March 11th, CB will be on the horn. Whether we land any and who remains to be seen.

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I think Krunk is right.  If you're looking for Sheard's replacement, so be it, but you can probably acquire that player cheaper.  

 

If you're looking for a game changer or someone to make a leap to the next level, I don't see it.  

 

That said, it's not like we have a ton of options.  

 

Would Ballard pay what it's gonna take to acquire him?  That's the question.  If I had to guess, I would say he'll pass on Flowers, but who knows.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

Evaluate every player individually. Don't do the lazy thing of assuming a player will be good/bad for another team because he was good/bad for the Pats. Trust your evaluation of the players. Noone bats 1000 in this league, including Belichick, including Ballard... 

 

If Ballard likes Flowers and is willing to outbid other teams, I'm all for it. Flowers seems like a really really good player. 

 

Yes, and it's true in both directions.  

 

Don't overvalue players because they won titles with Belichick and Brady.  Picture the same player with the same tape and same production in Tampa.

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21 hours ago, #12. said:

I think Krunk is right.  If you're looking for Sheard's replacement, so be it, but you can probably acquire that player cheaper.  

 

If you're looking for a game changer or someone to make a leap to the next level, I don't see it.  

 

That said, it's not like we have a ton of options.  

 

Would Ballard pay what it's gonna take to acquire him?  That's the question.  If I had to guess, I would say he'll pass on Flowers, but who knows.

Im down with the aquisition as long as Ballard can get him at whatever the figure is hes placed on him for his value and not more than that. Teams get crazy with the type of money they pay in FA. He may get even more than what we are thinking. Hes already getting hyped up and he will probably be the best of the ones who dont get signed.

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I don't know if the Patriots will make a strong effort to re-sign him or not, but I can almost guarantee you they won't use the tag on him. I don't think that was ever an option. (At least not a realistic one.) 

 

Hard to say what Flowers would be somewhere else. The Patriots get a lot of their pass rush from scheme, rather than just lining guys up and asking them to win one-on-one battles. (Though of all their D-linemen, Flowers has been one of the only guys who can do that regularly.) He's made some big plays at times too, which is another trait that guys tend to carry from one team to another. 

 

I don't want to see him go, but I've gotten used to it over the years, lol... 

 

 

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On 2/19/2019 at 8:36 AM, krunk said:

Sack numbers no different. Sheard avg was about 8 sacks or less per year. And this was true particularly at the beginning of his career.  And he never got more than that. Some mild differences. I think Flowers is the same type guy. Hed help the team certainly but i dont think hes worth an insane contract. I do think hed fit the culture. Sure!

 

Good post.....

 

As you know,  we signed Sheard to a contract worth 3/25 and I think it was roughly 10 Mill guaranteed,  but I'm probably off on that one.

 

But the reports I see on Flowers is that he's looking for basically 5/80.    $16 Mill per.

 

I personally don't see that player.    That's not a contract I'd be comfortable offering,  whether we can afford it or not.     I don't see him as that type of player.

 

I see Ballard shopping in a more mid-priced range again.   Paying good,  but not great money to solid players.       That's my hunch,  and frankly my hope.

 

I think the bigger shopping spree happens in March of 2020.

 

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6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Good post.....

 

As you know,  we signed Sheard to a contract worth 3/25 and I think it was roughly 10 Mill guaranteed,  but I'm probably off on that one.

 

But the reports I see on Flowers is that he's looking for basically 5/80.    $16 Mill per.

 

I personally don't see that player.    That's not a contract I'd be comfortable offering,  whether we can afford it or not.     I don't see him as that type of player.

 

I see Ballard shopping in a more mid-priced range again.   Paying good,  but not great money to solid players.       That's my hunch,  and frankly my hope.

 

I think the bigger shopping spree happens in March of 2020.

 

Yea that shopping spree is going to be resigning/extending our own. Imo Ballard isn’t ever going to over spend in FA. He’ll plug holes with value signings and use the draft as the main life line for our team. This doesn’t bother me but will bother the ones hoping for that big name FA year after year.

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Good post.....

 

As you know,  we signed Sheard to a contract worth 3/25 and I think it was roughly 10 Mill guaranteed,  but I'm probably off on that one.

 

But the reports I see on Flowers is that he's looking for basically 5/80.    $16 Mill per.

 

I personally don't see that player.    That's not a contract I'd be comfortable offering,  whether we can afford it or not.     I don't see him as that type of player.

 

I see Ballard shopping in a more mid-priced range again.   Paying good,  but not great money to solid players.       That's my hunch,  and frankly my hope.

 

I think the bigger shopping spree happens in March of 2020.

 

I can’t see Flowers getting $16m per year. He’s not an elite player.... but he IS good! $12-13m should be max for him, but obviously it only takes one team to fall in love. I think he’d be great for the Colts, though. Hope they get him, but at the reduced price level. 

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1 hour ago, Hoose said:

I can’t see Flowers getting $16m per year. He’s not an elite player.... but he IS good! $12-13m should be max for him, but obviously it only takes one team to fall in love. I think he’d be great for the Colts, though. Hope they get him, but at the reduced price level. 

 

Another good post.

 

And to be clear,  I'd be thrilled to get Flowers if we got him at a more reasonable contract.

 

That said,  I somewhat mis-stated my own post....   I said "Flowers was looking for...."    that's not true.     The reports I've seen are projections by ESPN and PFF that that may be the predicted market value for Flowers.    So, perhaps teams will be throwing around big money at the player.

 

Sorry for the poor choice of words.     My bad.

 

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