Why do Colts screen plays not work so well?

[Lawrence Owen]

I ask this, to you esteemed peers, because I have noticed it all season.  We have the personnel, on paper. to effectively run RB screen plays well. Our O-line, and WR's all seem to block so well for a run play.  Even on tape they do it well after breaking down the film.  But whenever a RB screen play is called, it seems either a WR misses a block, or a defender is not accounted for, and either the RB is tackled for a loss, or the pass go incomplete.  

Mack did have 1 very bad tip off his hands this past year, that went for 6 the other way.  But when out in the flat, Mack catches and runs quite well. Aka the sideline 29 yard walk-in TD.

It just seems to me it is specifically the screen plays themselves Indy has issue with.

Does Luck have issues throwing 'catch-able' balls when thrown horizontally? Either ball speed, touch, or leading the back?  

Does our RB coach, a former FB,  focus too much on being a tough runner between the tackles and pass pro, and not enough time working on these type of plays?

Does the team as a whole just telegraph these plays to the defense with body language?

What are your opinions?

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think we will see a change this season. This was one reason Reich wanted his own oline coach. 

[TheMiz]

I think one of the main reasons is because they only call screens when it's extremely obvious that we're going to be running a screen

[Four2itus]

Add a serious crossing or deep threat and that may change....

[Boiler_Colt]

1 hour ago, TheMiz said:

I think one of the main reasons is because they only call screens when it's extremely obvious that we're going to be running a screen

This is one of the top reasons. The key to most good screens is disguising the fact that it is a screen. They can certainly improve that. The WR screens this year actually worked pretty well, but the RB not so much.

 

There are other factors as well. Sometimes Luck doesn't set his feet when throwing a screen across his body to the left, which sometimes causes a low throw. Also, none of our backs break tackles that well, especially Hines. 

 

Hopefully they make an emphasis to improve because it could be a deadly part of the arsenal with speedy backs and athletic linemen.

[throwing BBZ]

Andrew has always had very poor touch and accuracy in the short game, and you can read him like an open book because he just can't look the other way and know where his back will be. He is wired wrong. Harbaugh grossly overstated his ability to make "all the throws". 
 And with a lead foot Mewhort, Big slow Good and other missing links that couldn't move to make a block, no way.
Andrew is very good at what he can do of course.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

Andrew has always had very poor touch and accuracy in the short game, and you can read him like an open book because he just can't look the other way and know where his back will be. He is wired wrong. Harbaugh grossly overstated his ability to make "all the throws". 
 And with a lead foot Mewhort, Big slow Good and other missing links that couldn't move to make a block, no way.
Andrew is very good at what he can do of course.

Hopefully with Reich as HC he will be able to improve that. Luck has coaching for the first time in his career. Hopefully a old dog can learn new tricks.

[waka waka]

running the ball effectively opens up the screen game. the line has enough athletic ability to be a good screen team but its something that works well when everyone is on the same page. Hoping Mudd returns brings back more stretch looks out of double te sets. i think you can get cute with all the formations and alot of RPO's but the double TE look could be very effective here. ran a lot of that while moore and mudd were here under the manning years.

[Lawrence Owen]

30 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Hopefully with Reich as HC he will be able to improve that. Luck has coaching for the first time in his career. Hopefully a old dog can learn new tricks.

Luck improved his decision making over time, and his release this past year.  I'm sure he can add other tools as needed if he works on them.

 

[LockeDown]

When they go over the plays Luck likes, they bypass the screen plays.  Just like scrambling, Luck doesn’t do it well.  He runs forward . 

[kornstar]

It’s a shame we won 10 regular season games with Luck under centre because he is terrible.

 

If we had a QB who wasn’t so trash we would run the table......

 

I really hope we trade him in March!!

[cbear]

That's what it seems like to me as well, but I'd love to see a stat about how many times we do throw screens as compared to other teams and yards per play on those passes. 

[DerekDiggler]

The reason they don’t work is because of Mack.   He is not a very good receiver.   And so they have to bring in Hines Who IS a much better receiver but it telegraphs the play. 

 

I know now a lot of you are really high on Mack.   But we really need to upgrade the RB position and move him back to what he was drafted for.  A change of pace back 

[ReMeDy]

Maybe our coaches give Luck a few plays -- sometimes a screen -- and Luck never chooses the screen play? Reich says into the headset, "Luck, why u no like our screen plays?" Luck just smiles. Then Reich thinks, "Aww, how can I say no to that face!?"

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Cuz we don't have Lev Bell! Hahaha

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Terrible writers I suppose?

[Jason_]

15 hours ago, kornstar said:

It’s a shame we won 10 regular season games with Luck under centre because he is terrible.

 

If we had a QB who wasn’t so trash we would run the table......

 

I really hope we trade him in March!!

 

why is it when someone gives even the tiniest critique of something Luck doesn't do very well, ^ that kind of post always follows?

[pgt_rob]

Need a player like Ahmad Bradshaw again to catch the screens and dump offs for 8+ yards.

[IinD]

Definitely a few reasons, but Luck doesn't throw the best quick pass down the line of scrimmage. 

 

Peyton and Brady were/are good at snapping and getting it out quick.

 

We do suck at it though. 

[kornstar]

1 hour ago, J@son said:

 

why is it when someone gives even the tiniest critique of something Luck doesn't do very well, ^ that kind of post always follows?

 

Have you read much of this forum? Especially when we lose a game when the entire team sucks, all we hear about is how bad our QB is.

 

Us running screens poorly don't 100% have to be on Luck, it's not like we have 3 or 4 great receivers, we have 1 and he has to be the threat everywhere! Our RB's are also very green and dropped many passes thrown at them last season.

 

Luck may also not be the best proponent of the plays as well but not everything is a simple as "Luck can't throw", a lot goes into why we can't execute them well.

 

Manning was obviously one of the best QB's ever but did he get the criticism Luck gets? What i see on here is that Manning could do no wrong and never threw an interception or lost a play-off game.

 

Comparably at the same time of their careers is there much difference in their stats?

[Jason_]

36 minutes ago, kornstar said:

 

Have you read much of this forum? Especially when we lose a game when the entire team sucks, all we hear about is how bad our QB is.

 

Us running screens poorly don't 100% have to be on Luck, it's not like we have 3 or 4 great receivers, we have 1 and he has to be the threat everywhere! Our RB's are also very green and dropped many passes thrown at them last season.

 

Luck may also not be the best proponent of the plays as well but not everything is a simple as "Luck can't throw", a lot goes into why we can't execute them well.

 

Manning was obviously one of the best QB's ever but did he get the criticism Luck gets? What i see on here is that Manning could do no wrong and never threw an interception or lost a play-off game.

 

Comparably at the same time of their careers is there much difference in their stats?

 

 

First, some of what you said is true, but a lot of it is also highly exaggerated.  Tell me, what was so egregiously wrong about the post you were replying to? That poster said Luck has always had issues with touch and accuracy on short throws, and frankly I agree with that. It doesn't mean he's not one of the best QBs in the game because he is. But he does have some flaws in his game that could be improved upon. 

 

Next time, instead of replying with extreme hyperbolic sarcasm, try giving a more thought out post like the one I quoted in this post. At least then we can further the discussion rather than devolving into petty bickering and fighting.

[kornstar]

3 hours ago, J@son said:

 

 

First, some of what you said is true, but a lot of it is also highly exaggerated.  Tell me, what was so egregiously wrong about the post you were replying to? That poster said Luck has always had issues with touch and accuracy on short throws, and frankly I agree with that. It doesn't mean he's not one of the best QBs in the game because he is. But he does have some flaws in his game that could be improved upon. 

 

Next time, instead of replying with extreme hyperbolic sarcasm, try giving a more thought out post like the one I quoted in this post. At least then we can further the discussion rather than devolving into petty bickering and fighting.

 

I wasn't really replying to the post you suggest, there was one before that i guess that may have been more of a trigger but it was just a generally silly comment from me.

 

Obviously an overreaction on my part but that seems to be what is the norm around here but the opposite to what i said and lack of any real thought other than "he sucks".

 

I need to be better, i agree.....no sarcasm.

 

 

[Jdubu]

8 hours ago, IinD said:

Definitely a few reasons, but Luck doesn't throw the best quick pass down the line of scrimmage. 

 

Peyton and Brady were/are good at snapping and getting it out quick.

 

We do suck at it though. 

We honestly haven’t been very good at running screen plays since Edge left. He was just very smooth at doing it which makes me believe some of it is the rb tipping the play. All I know is more teams can run an 6-15 yard screen way better than we can. 

[JMichael557]

Have to disagree about Luck and short throws. When our screens are set up to fail from the beginning often Luck will throw the ball at the where it cannot be caught rather than having the running back get blown up for a loss. That is just a smart play. I would like to see some gif's of luck having a wide open screen that is going to go for plus 10 yards where he as completely missed a receiver. 

[Lawrence Owen]

Everyone is focusing on Luck.  If you read my full post, I put out multiple suggestions as to the possible reason why our screen plays don't work well.

I personally don't think it is ALL on Luck, but believe a portion of it is. 

I think all those reason's I posted have a part to play in why they do not work well for us. 

[NewColtsFan]

On 2/7/2019 at 3:59 PM, Lawrence Owen said:

I ask this, to you esteemed peers, because I have noticed it all season.  We have the personnel, on paper. to effectively run RB screen plays well. Our O-line, and WR's all seem to block so well for a run play.  Even on tape they do it well after breaking down the film.  But whenever a RB screen play is called, it seems either a WR misses a block, or a defender is not accounted for, and either the RB is tackled for a loss, or the pass go incomplete.  

Mack did have 1 very bad tip off his hands this past year, that went for 6 the other way.  But when out in the flat, Mack catches and runs quite well. Aka the sideline 29 yard walk-in TD.

It just seems to me it is specifically the screen plays themselves Indy has issue with.

Does Luck have issues throwing 'catch-able' balls when thrown horizontally? Either ball speed, touch, or leading the back?  

Does our RB coach, a former FB,  focus too much on being a tough runner between the tackles and pass pro, and not enough time working on these type of plays?

Does the team as a whole just telegraph these plays to the defense with body language?

What are your opinions?

 

I think this is a very good question.  Props to poster LO for starting the discussion.   I've been way under the weather and have had lots of time to think about a response.    This is just about my first chance to write.    Apologies, it's going to be a long post as I think out loud....

 

First,  in my readings of football,  I often read that coaches do not use the entire playbook the first season.    There is just too much material.   New concepts and plays are often introduced in Year 2 and even Year 3.      I would not be at all surprised if this was a factor for us. 

 

Second,  add to that,  Luck was very limited in practice in camp.   And even when he started to practice,  he was on a very limited pitch count.   And the screen is a play that takes a lot of practice reps to work on timing and coordination.    Lots of different ways to run a screen.   So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a decision was made to limit the screen game this first season as just a practical matter.

 

Third,  Some OL coaches do not teach the screen as well as others.   Not saying at all that this was the case for our former OL coach,  just that not everyone teaches this as well as others.   Also,  some players are best used going forward and backward and they're less effective side to side.   That should NOT be an issue for the Colts.   ALL of our lineman are at least above average in athleticism,   so a screen should be to our advantage.    We should be a team that likes to use the screen.

 

Fourth, I'm guessing with the bringing back of Mudd and the hiring of our two new OL coaches,  with Luck returning to health,  I think this season is where we might look for more usage of the screen game.    It should hopefully be a more natural fit in our offense.

 

Hopefully this post will give some food for thought and we'll see where it takes us........

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

On 2/8/2019 at 11:49 AM, J@son said:

 

why is it when someone gives even the tiniest critique of something Luck doesn't do very well, ^ that kind of post always follows?

 

Honestly?

 

Even as a Luck fan, I have no problem with someone criticizing Luck.   I'm a Colts fan because I'm a Luck fan,   but his game has flaws and I think of myself as someone willing to be publcily critical of Andrew when he makes one of his patented Brain Cramp throws.

 

That said.....

 

You don't have to look far in this thead to find some embarrassingly bad analysis of Luck.  Much is silly and sophomoric.    And not even close to the truth.    But everyone is entitled to their opinion, so that's how we roll here....     I'd guess some posters who respond critically of these Luck comments have trouble containing themselves when they read some of the posts that appear here.    

 

Hey,  stuff happens.           

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This thread kind of has me laughing after watching Hines rookie highlights. Not sure why anyone thought we didn’t use screens. Maybe the season was just so exciting we forgot. I suggest anyone who thinks we didn’t use screen passes or luck can’t throw those passes to go watch Hines highlights. I kind of forgot about it also. Hines had a incredible season. I think Hines and Mack are going to make a great duo.  I also was watching 2006 SB again and gosh I forgot how good JA was in both the running and passing game.

[CurBeatElite]

On 2/8/2019 at 12:42 AM, DerekDiggler said:

The reason they don’t work is because of Mack.   He is not a very good receiver.   And so they have to bring in Hines Who IS a much better receiver but it telegraphs the play. 

 

I know now a lot of you are really high on Mack.   But we really need to upgrade the RB position and move him back to what he was drafted for.  A change of pace back 

 

I don't really think Mack was drafted as a 'change of pace back.'  He was drafted to learn under future HOFer Frank Gore for a year and then to take over as the featured back.  He finished the season with 908 yards in 12 games, which is pretty darn good (on pace for 1,210+ yards if he didn't miss 1/4 of the season -- that would have put him in 4th in the NFL behind Zeke, Saquon and Gurley).  

 

If you listen to Ballard talk, he says he thinks Mack is a 1,500 yard guy with a full season under his belt.  Mack also had a very strong post-season (averaging 5.9 ypc and 97 yards/game).  He isn't going anywhere.  He has some stuff he can improve in his game (being a better receiver is one), but overall he's very solid as a runner and pass blocker.  He's a feature back in this league and I imagine he'll stay in that role for at least a few more seasons.

[Jason_]

On 2/9/2019 at 8:19 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Honestly?

 

Even as a Luck fan, I have no problem with someone criticizing Luck.   I'm a Colts fan because I'm a Luck fan,   but his game has flaws and I think of myself as someone willing to be publcily critical of Andrew when he makes one of his patented Brain Cramp throws.

 

That said.....

 

You don't have to look far in this thead to find some embarrassingly bad analysis of Luck.  Much is silly and sophomoric.    And not even close to the truth.    But everyone is entitled to their opinion, so that's how we roll here....     I'd guess some posters who respond critically of these Luck comments have trouble containing themselves when they read some of the posts that appear here.    

 

Hey,  stuff happens.           

 

I don't see anything like that...it's possible some posts were deleted but even when I posted for the first time in this thread I don't recall seeing anything embarrassingly bad.  Maybe I overlooked a post that was subsequently edited or deleted. 

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, J@son said:

 

I don't see anything like that...it's possible some posts were deleted but even when I posted for the first time in this thread I don't recall seeing anything embarrassingly bad.  Maybe I overlooked a post that was subsequently edited or deleted. 

 

I don't want to point fingers which is why I didn't name any names.     Just my view of things,  and my views are often quite unpopular.     But speaking generally and broadly,  I don't think analysis is what most fans here do very well.   Especially when opinions run up against facts.

 

I appreciate that I'm in the minority here...    and I'm ok with that....

 

[Indyfan4life]

Because we don’t do it well. 

 

Took me a while to come up with that one. 

 

Anyway im

hopeful that with the oline coaching change and different philosophy to what Reich truly wants, this will change. But, yes. Having someone that can make sure to get those slants and crossing routes down would greatly help as well. 

 

While I hate to admit this, I’d love to have a Julian Edelman on the team. Dude always seems to be open on crossing routes.