Defensive Line class might be overrated

[Defjamz26]

I’ve suggested this too because so many posters here are adamant that there will be a defensive lineman for us to take at pick 26, but TDN sees differently.

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2019/02/04/hold-up-this-interior-dl-class-aint-what-we-thought/

 

I agree. Wilkins and Simmons will likely go before our pick, so I think the depth and value starts in the 2nd round at that position.

[stitches]

I still like Tillery better than any DT from last year for example. And he's going to go late in the first or later. I still like Ed Oliver better than any of the DTs last year. This is a good DLine class.

 

Lawrence is another one whose evaluation depends on how you project him going forward because he had good pass-rush in college, but I'm not sure he will be able to translate it. If you think he can, he's another high end prospect. He's essentially what Vita Vea was last year and he's super young too... he's 21 if I'm not mistaken. 

 

The one I'm having extremely hard time figuring out is DreMont Jones. I could see him completely flaming out because of lack of play strength or I can see him becoming a formidable 3T with elite pass-rush. 

[Superman]

I've never understood rating groups in a class. I don't care how good this year's DL class is, I just care about the players available. Once a team has a good grasp of the overall talent level of the class as a whole and stacks their board, nothing else really matters. I'm not rushing to take a specific position at any point in the draft, just because it's a strong or weak spot in the draft. 

[FalseStart]

59 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I’ve suggested this too because so many posters here are adamant that there will be a defensive lineman for us to take at pick 26, but TDN sees differently.

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2019/02/04/hold-up-this-interior-dl-class-aint-what-we-thought/

 

I agree. Wilkins and Simmons will likely go before our pick, so I think the depth and value starts in the 2nd round at that position.

 

Interesting Read/Site: https://www.stampedeblue.com/2019/2/1/18205051/projecting-colts-starters-positional-needs-and-cap-space-after-vinatieri-glowinski-sign-deals

[shasta519]

I wasn't aware that this class was supposed to be a generational group of DTs. For me, the strength has always been with the DEs (Bosa, Gary, Ferrell, Sweat, Polite, Josh Allen).. When you combine that with the DTs...then it becomes a loaded DL group overall.

 

I agree with a lot of what he is saying. Honestly, the only two DT prospects that I truly like as 1st round talents is Williams and Oliver.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

I’ve suggested this too because so many posters here are adamant that there will be a defensive lineman for us to take at pick 26, but TDN sees differently.

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2019/02/04/hold-up-this-interior-dl-class-aint-what-we-thought/

 

I agree. Wilkins and Simmons will likely go before our pick, so I think the depth and value starts in the 2nd round at that position.

 

I know you won't see this because you're blocking me and not responding.     That's fine.

 

But your argument collapses in the very first paragraph.     TDN does NOT see it differently with reguard to defensive LINEMAN   (that would include both tackles AND ends)   TDN only sees it that way with D-Tackles.     They never say a word about D-ends.

 

Then again,  you're the one who thinks our DE group is fine and we don't need to use a high pick on it.    Hey, maybe we can take a wide receiver.

 

[twfish]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I know you won't see this because you're blocking me and not responding.     That's fine.

 

 

 

Awww man did I miss some drama somewhere?

[John Hammonds]

Not a bad article.  And it agrees with what I've been increasingly thinking about this DL class anyway.  This is a deep class.  But it's not a generational class, top heavy with a boat load of game changers.  Everybody on this list has got that "yeah, but" clause attached to him.  This guy is amazing, but he's a freak athlete playing against low competition.  This guy is a beast, but he's got slow feet, and a small play radius.  This guy has amazing quickness, but he doesn't have the strength to hold up against a serious push.  This guy is pretty good at everything, but not exceptional at anything.

I think there's talent here.  Talent that's worthy of one of our top-50 picks.  But you gotta pick wisely.  It's very possible to screw it up.

Will be watching all of these guys at the combine.  Check that.  NEED to watch all of these guys at the combine.

[Jdubu]

3 hours ago, twfish said:

Awww man did I miss some drama somewhere?

Oh there is drama in about every single thread where there are opinions tossed out. Some just feel like their opinion is better or holds more weight in here when in reality, none of us are much more correct than the next guy. I discount the troll like posters but for the most part, it’s all about style and content of the post not who is smarter or “more right” than the other. 

 

I doubt you'll miss any drama, may miss a specific piece of drama but drama is present all throughout. Lol 

[Defjamz26]

1 hour ago, John Hammonds said:

Not a bad article.  And it agrees with what I've been increasingly thinking about this DL class anyway.  This is a deep class.  But it's not a generational class, top heavy with a boat load of game changers.  Everybody on this list has got that "yeah, but" clause attached to him.  This guy is amazing, but he's a freak athlete playing against low competition.  This guy is a beast, but he's got slow feet, and a small play radius.  This guy has amazing quickness, but he doesn't have the strength to hold up against a serious push.  This guy is pretty good at everything, but not exceptional at anything.

I think there's talent here.  Talent that's worthy of one of our top-50 picks.  But you gotta pick wisely.  It's very possible to screw it up.

Will be watching all of these guys at the combine.  Check that.  NEED to watch all of these guys at the combine.

Yeah the only undisputed guys undisputed with no asterisk next to their names (who play on the defensive line) are Q. Williams, Josh Allen, and Nick Bosa. Even Oliver now has a bunch of question marks. I’m not saying whoever we take at 26 won’t have their weaknesses, but I know it’ll be the BPA on Ballard’s board.

 

Honestly I think it’s just analysts always trying to create a superlative for each draft class. “Deep defensive draft, deep at WR, good CB depth,etc...”. Which is fine. It creates buzz for draft sites which keeps people interested, but a lot people take it as the gospel. If multiple sites say a draft is deep at a certain position, and it’s team need, then that’s the narrative. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, twfish said:

Awww man did I miss some drama somewhere?

 

Yes......

 

Apparently, I was "stalking" (his word,  not mine) Defjamz a number of weeks back and he said he wanted me to stop that but hat either way,  he was blocking me.   

 

I've tried to stay out of his threads, or at least not respond directly to a post of his since then.

 

But I wanted to correct his post so the thread can at least stay on track....

 

[shasta519]

20 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Yeah the only undisputed guys undisputed with no asterisk next to their names (who play on the defensive line) are Q. Williams, Josh Allen, and Nick Bosa. Even Oliver now has a bunch of question marks. I’m not saying whoever we take at 26 won’t have their weaknesses, but I know it’ll be the BPA on Ballard’s board.

 

Honestly I think it’s just analysts always trying to create a superlative for each draft class. “Deep defensive draft, deep at WR, good CB depth,etc...”. Which is fine. It creates buzz for draft sites which keeps people interested, but a lot people take it as the gospel. If multiple sites say a draft is deep at a certain position, and it’s team need, then that’s the narrative. 

 

It's a weak QB class...so it has to be something else. I do actually think there is a lot of really good talent at both DL and WR though.

[Defjamz26]

2 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

It's a weak QB class...so it has to be something else. I do actually think there is a lot of really good talent at both DL and WR though.

Oh yes, there’s plenty of talent at those positions. But with the DL, it’s a good class with more top heavy talent. There will be some future starters you get in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but this class isn’t generational like it has been hyped to be.

[Hoose]

Whether or not the D line class is "generational", its still plenty deep and talented. And I suspect we all agree Colts need more talent on the D line. Thus, the conclusion that a DE and/or DT will be an early pick. I think you can take that to the bank. 

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, Hoose said:

Whether or not the D line class is "generational", its still plenty deep and talented. And I suspect we all agree Colts need more talent on the D line. Thus, the conclusion that a DE and/or DT will be an early pick. I think you can take that to the bank. 

The Colts need more talent on the D-line, but they need more than just more talent on the D-line. We need help at receiver, CB, SS, and possibly LB.

[CozyColt]

I don't think that there is ever going to be a "generational" position group going into the draft because underclassmen are staying an extra year in school if they are too many good prospects in a class. In 2017 we had the same talks about the generational rb class and because of that we had guys like michel, chubb and penny staying in college. Now the 17 rb class is considered really good but without these guys it didn't become generational.

Davis and Brown, who are both top 15 players, want to make that jump to q. williams and ed oliver territory, so losing two potential all-pro will always be a big hit on a draft class. 

To make a class generational you really need the unknown guys that get picked on day 3 and become long time franchise players and that's something you can only find years after the draft took place.

[Hoose]

11 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

The Colts need more talent on the D-line, but they need more than just more talent on the D-line. We need help at receiver, CB, SS, and possibly LB.

I agree. But I still think that in THIS draft, the D line will get alot of early love from the Colts. 

[rock8591]

This thread reminds me on the following, back in 2004. I read it back then when I was a ripe old 19 years old.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1937779

[krunk]

On 2/4/2019 at 10:40 AM, stitches said:

I still like Tillery better than any DT from last year for example. And he's going to go late in the first or later. I still like Ed Oliver better than any of the DTs last year. This is a good DLine class.

 

Lawrence is another one whose evaluation depends on how you project him going forward because he had good pass-rush in college, but I'm not sure he will be able to translate it. If you think he can, he's another high end prospect. He's essentially what Vita Vea was last year and he's super young too... he's 21 if I'm not mistaken. 

 

The one I'm having extremely hard time figuring out is DreMont Jones. I could see him completely flaming out because of lack of play strength or I can see him becoming a formidable 3T with elite pass-rush. 

So far I like Tillery and Dremont Jones the most but I'm still getting up to speed.

[Defjamz26]

10 minutes ago, krunk said:

So far I like Tillery and Dremont Jones the most but I'm still getting up to speed.

I liked Tillery early on. But then I saw the character concerns and was put off. Plus I noticed the inconsistency in his play. What are your thoughts on him? I was really disappointed he did nothing in the CFB against a weak Clemson O-line.

[NewEra]

Well hope they drop and we get to snag some of these "overhyped' d-linemen 

[chad72]

52 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I liked Tillery early on. But then I saw the character concerns and was put off. Plus I noticed the inconsistency in his play. What are your thoughts on him? I was really disappointed he did nothing in the CFB against a weak Clemson O-line.

 

He is the best rated interior pass rusher in college, not overall DL but just on the pass rush front. I also like Gerald Willis III from Miami for the interior pass rush.

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

He is the best rated interior pass rusher in college, not overall DL but just on the pass rush front. I also like Gerald Willis III from Miami for the interior pass rush.

I like Willis better personally. He has issues with pad level though. But Tillery is 6’6” so I can see him having even greater issues in that area.

[chad72]

15 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I like Willis better personally. He has issues with pad level though. But Tillery is 6’6” so I can see him having even greater issues in that area.

 

In the current NFL, OCs and head coaches are good at scheming against a basic front four rush that more than occasional blitzing is going to be a frequent occurrence to generate pressure with enough DBs/LBs being able to play man coverage. In other words, picking late in the first round, we will have to settle for someone very good in one trait instead of being a jack of all trades. 

 

If Margus Hunt could have a revival in his pass rush and be "good enough" on the run D front with his length, Tillery will give Eberflus more to work with from a base talent that can be coached up, IMO. 

 

A couple of good reads about defensive line play I read recently, thought I'd share since I know you like such stuff:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/strategy-minicamps/2005/defensive-line-basics-mind-gap

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/5/20/4347860/nfl-play-breakdown-pass-rush-aldon-smith-justin-smith-49ers

 

 

Vic Fangio had the 49ers humming with Willis and Bowman, plus Justin Smith and Aldon Smith who were both Top 7 picks. Both the Smiths were 6'4" and so is Suh and Michael Bennett. It seems like if your only goal is to do 1-gap penetration over the course of a game, and not worry about anything else, power and short stature with quickness help like in the case of Aaron Donald and Geno Atkins, both 6'1", Warren Sapp was close to that too.

 

OL guys hate powerful and quick guys like Donald and Atkins, over the course of a game because the taller guy will eventually play high as the game goes on and gets tired giving the advantage to the shorter quicker guy with leverage but then the taller guy's arms helps him through traffic with ball carriers, taller guy needs to be in a quality rotation it feels like.

 

I am not sure what parameters Eberflus will assign for his DL w.r.t stunts, twists, length, run D and pass rush, we will have to wait and see, Tillery, Willis and Dre' Mont Jones all have pad level questions. Fun times speculating!!!

[Defjamz26]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

In the current NFL, OCs and head coaches are good at scheming against a basic front four rush that more than occasional blitzing is going to be a frequent occurrence to generate pressure with enough DBs/LBs being able to play man coverage. In other words, picking late in the first round, we will have to settle for someone very good in one trait instead of being a jack of all trades. 

 

If Margus Hunt could have a revival in his pass rush and be "good enough" on the run D front with his length, Tillery will give Eberflus more to work with from a base talent that can be coached up, IMO. 

 

A couple of good reads about defensive line play I read recently, thought I'd share since I know you like such stuff:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/strategy-minicamps/2005/defensive-line-basics-mind-gap

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/5/20/4347860/nfl-play-breakdown-pass-rush-aldon-smith-justin-smith-49ers

 

 

Vic Fangio had the 49ers humming with Willis and Bowman, plus Justin Smith and Aldon Smith who were both Top 7 picks. Both the Smiths were 6'4" and so is Suh and Michael Bennett. It seems like if your only goal is to do 1-gap penetration over the course of a game, and not worry about anything else, power and short stature with quickness help like in the case of Aaron Donald and Geno Atkins, both 6'1", Warren Sapp was close to that too.

 

OL guys hate powerful and quick guys like Donald and Atkins, over the course of a game because the taller guy will eventually play high as the game goes on and gets tired giving the advantage to the shorter quicker guy with leverage but then the taller guy's arms helps him through traffic with ball carriers, taller guy needs to be in a quality rotation it feels like.

 

I am not sure what parameters Eberflus will assign for his DL w.r.t stunts, twists, length, run D and pass rush, we will have to wait and see, Tillery, Willis and Dre' Mont Jones all have pad level questions. Fun times speculating!!!

It depends on what the Colts want to do. If they really want to run a true Tampa-2, they could use a smaller but quicker DT like Jones. He

 

If they want to be a traditional 4-3, they probably want 2 gap players like Christian Wilkins or Tillery.

 

But the Colts used so many hybrid looks last season, it’s hard to know what they’re looking for specifically.

[ty4atd]

I really like either Wilkins or Lawrence from Clemson. Wilkins would be a great 3tech in our defense and Lawrence could replace Woods as our NT, and both at least for now are projected to go near our picks in a lot of draft rankings.

[ty4atd]

If Temoko, Lewis or whomever else we draft can make an immediate impact this season along with adding a 3tech like Wilkins, Jones from Ohio St or Tillery imagine our line on passing situations we can move Temoko/Lewis and Scheard on the ends and Autry and Wilkins that would be stellar.