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Why Brady is NOT the GOAT

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18 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I agree that every game and every pick is different, and I never said that more picks than TDs = a bad game by the QB. But in 17 seasons, every other team is 4-51 when the QB throws more picks than TDs. The Pats alone have six wins with Brady in that time period. That statistical anomaly speaks for itself.

 

I checked what those games were. AFCCG and SB this year. The Lee Evans game. The Tuck rule game. Marlon McCree game. Rivers torn ACL game.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201201220nwe.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200201190nwe.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200701140sdg.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200801200nwe.htm

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Tom Brady has thrown TD's to 71 DIFFERENT targets compared to 45 for Peyton Manning. Brady has had a revolving door of recievers over the course of his career. It doesn't matter who you give to Tom Brady he is going to throw TD's. So Brady makes everyone a weapon.

I propose that this has little to do with Brady but more due to the front office approach of the Patriots which has clearly worked very well for them. They plug and play players into their system while the Colts were out there drafting Anthony Gonzales in the first round and spending big on offense. Clearly Manning made everyone a weapon too, even in Denver, and would have if his teams had the NE style front office. I read a good tweet once that stuck with me "The difference between Quincy Morgan and Reggie Wayne, is that one of them played with Peyton Manning." 

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On 2/4/2019 at 3:35 AM, DarkSuperman said:

Winning 6 Lombardi's and hosting 9 Superbowls makes you the GOAT.

  Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t there 52 other players and some pretty good coaches on his sideline?

   To view these two reasons as PROOF of his being the GOAT unequivocally is short sided and media fodder.

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2 hours ago, 18to87 said:

I read a good tweet once that stuck with me "The difference between Quincy Morgan and Reggie Wayne, is that one of them played with Peyton Manning." 

 

And if you believe that, I have a hard time taking anything you have to say seriously. I'm sorry but Quincy Morgan shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Reggie Wayne. Reggie Wayne is a future Hall of Famer and Quincy Morgan is the future night manager of a Papa Johns. There is no comparison between the 2 except that they both played wide receiver in the NFL.

 

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The games that haunts me the most is the Atlanta game and the Seattle game. I couldn't shake those game off for a couple of days.

 

This Super Bowl was blah and almost expected sadly.  Didn't watch any football news or media day. Tuned in for the SB and TV off seconds after the game ended.

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9 hours ago, 18to87 said:

 

The "he had more weapons than Brady" thing is often overstated. Faulk??? Harrison went missing in the playoffs against physical coverage when PM needed him most. If PM had it over again, I bet he would have traded in one or two of those weapons for an OL like what Brady has had. Also, I was looking at the stat box for one of PM's last games vs NE as a Colt. He was throwing TD passes to Blair White. Yes, his weapons did get injured quite a bit over the years.

 

I also have serious doubts that Brady could start at a new team mid-career and be elite. Manning went to Denver and made many of his teammates rich (Julius Thomas anyone?). It most certainly wasn't the coaching.

Some of it boils down to me is, who would I start a franchise with if I had to choose 1 QB from scratch? Who could carry a bad team more than anyone and that is Peyton IMO. I can respect the argument for Brady regarding a final drive to win a game and Montana as well so that is why I am torn between the 3.

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15 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Come on. This is a little silly in my opinion. You act like Peyton played with a bunch of scrubs. Peyton actually had more weapons than Tom Brady has ever had. Marvin Harrison (HOF), Marshall Faulk (HOF), Reggie Wayne (potential HOF), Edgerrin James (HOF Finalist). Manning had a Hall OF Fame Coach. I'm a Colts fan but this idea that Brady has had superior teammates than Manning is just not fair. Peyton was given a great team with a great coach and we got a Super Bowl. There is no shame in that. Tom Brady has done more plain and simple.

 

My criteria for who is the GOAT essentially boils down to this. Who do I want to lead my team on a final drive to win the Super Bowl? Tom Brady is the man I would want. My second choice would be Joe Montana and then Peyton. 

 

The only times he had a halfway good defense he won the Super Bowl (Peyton). And Tony was a good coach, no doubt...but he is not Bill Belichick, nobody is. All I'm saying is that if you were to reverse the circumstances of the 2 QBs, Peyton would have won more SB's. This obviously my opinion, and pure speculation. 

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  • Give Brady the Colts offense and defense  the year Luck got injured with Grigson not speaking to Pagano.  Let’s see how the Supposed GOAT would handle a collapsing Oline, receivers with no separation, inferior p,ay calling, a defense that isn’t going to help him out and see how well he does.  He wouldn’t .  But Peyton Manning would call that a playoff team. He would call his own plays, get receivers open, make the throw before he gets hit and then get his 6th mvp award. 

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7 hours ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

 

The only times he had a halfway good defense he won the Super Bowl (Peyton). And Tony was a good coach, no doubt...but he is not Bill Belichick, nobody is. All I'm saying is that if you were to reverse the circumstances of the 2 QBs, Peyton would have won more SB's. This obviously my opinion, and pure speculation. 

 

 

6 hours ago, LockeDown said:
  • Give Brady the Colts offense and defense  the year Luck got injured with Grigson not speaking to Pagano.  Let’s see how the Supposed GOAT would handle a collapsing Oline, receivers with no separation, inferior p,ay calling, a defense that isn’t going to help him out and see how well he does.  He wouldn’t .  But Peyton Manning would call that a playoff team. He would call his own plays, get receivers open, make the throw before he gets hit and then get his 6th mvp award. 

 

Did you know that since 2002 the New England Defense has been about the 16th ranked defense in the NFL? In that same time period the Colts average defensive ranking has been 18th. So this idea that Brady has been playing with a vastly superior defense just isn't supported by the numbers.

 

NFL Team Defensive Stats

 

Also the idea that Brady has had a superior offensive line just doesn't jive with the numbers. Brady has been sacked 473 times in his career or an average of 27.8 sacks/season. Peyton Manning on the other hand was only sacked 303 times in his career or an average of 17.8 times per season. 

 

Career Sacks

 

I love Peyton Manning. He is my favorite QB of all time, but when I look at the numbers I have to be honest and say that Brady is the GOAT.  Once again, I do enjoy having this type of discussion. It's enjoyable to be able to discuss sports in a friendly forum like this.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

 

 

Did you know that since 2002 the New England Defense has been about the 16th ranked defense in the NFL? In that same time period the Colts average defensive ranking has been 18th. So this idea that Brady has been playing with a vastly superior defense just isn't supported by the numbers.

 

NFL Team Defensive Stats

 

Also the idea that Brady has had a superior offensive line just doesn't jive with the numbers. Brady has been sacked 473 times in his career or an average of 27.8 sacks/season. Peyton Manning on the other hand was only sacked 303 times in his career or an average of 17.8 times per season. 

 

Career Sacks

 

I love Peyton Manning. He is my favorite QB of all time, but when I look at the numbers I have to be honest and say that Brady is the GOAT.  Once again, I do enjoy having this type of discussion. It's enjoyable to be able to discuss sports in a friendly forum like this.

 

 

Your stats need to be more specific in order to be useful.  In 6 SB winning seasons the Pats D has been top 10 in scoring D.

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I've been watching the NFL since the 80's.   Brady is in my top 5, but not really close to the greatest of all time.   I have Manning, Montana, Marino and Young ahead of him.  

Super bowl titles should not count nearly as much as people like to let them.   It's a large team with lots of pieces and variables.   The Colts were not a team built for the playoffs.   That is not Mannings fault.   Brady is great, but he is not the reason the Pats won.  

 

Just remember that Cassel and Garoppolo went 13-5 with the patriots.   Cassel had not thrown a pass since high school.  

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12 hours ago, jjcolts said:

The games that haunts me the most is the Atlanta game and the Seattle game. I couldn't shake those game off for a couple of days.

 

This Super Bowl was blah and almost expected sadly.  Didn't watch any football news or media day. Tuned in for the SB and TV off seconds after the game ended.

This mostly... I was furious after the Seattle and Atlanta superbowls.. I just didnt care this past sunday and even listened to sports radio the next day..

 

 

But I've always thought, that Brady is a good QB but not even the best in current day (forget about all time) He listens to his coaches and follows the game plan like everybody else on that team. And they ALL thrive in that environment.. 

 

Lets rattle off some names who have gone and and prospered...

 

The Media hypes this crap up of GOAT so much, even Tom Brady is cringed by it. 

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57 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Your stats need to be more specific in order to be useful.  In 6 SB winning seasons the Pats D has been top 10 in scoring D.

 

I will concede to your point there. The Pats scoring D were all top 10 when they won the Super Bowl.

4 minutes ago, Myles said:

I've been watching the NFL since the 80's.   Brady is in my top 5, but not really close to the greatest of all time.   I have Manning, Montana, Marino and Young ahead of him.  

Super bowl titles should not count nearly as much as people like to let them.   It's a large team with lots of pieces and variables.   The Colts were not a team built for the playoffs.   That is not Mannings fault.   Brady is great, but he is not the reason the Pats won.  

 

Just remember that Cassel and Garoppolo went 13-5 with the patriots.   Cassel had not thrown a pass since high school.  

What is your criteria for being the GOAT? Passing yards? Brady has passed all of them on your list except Manning which he will in the 2019 season. Touchdowns? Once again Brady has or will pass every single one on the list. Completed passes? Again Brady will pass them all. Interceptions thrown? Manning and Marino threw more interceptions but Montana and Young threw less than Brady. 4th quarter comebacks? Manning does have Brady in that category but they are 1 and 2. Even if winning doesn't factor into your equation the stats say Tom Brady is the best to play the position.

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4 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

I will concede to your point there. The Pats scoring D were all top 10 when they won the Super Bowl.

What is your criteria for being the GOAT? Passing yards? Brady has passed all of them on your list except Manning which he will in the 2019 season. Touchdowns? Once again Brady has or will pass every single one on the list. Completed passes? Again Brady will pass them all. Interceptions thrown? Manning and Marino threw more interceptions but Montana and Young threw less than Brady. 4th quarter comebacks? Manning does have Brady in that category but they are 1 and 2. Even if winning doesn't factor into your equation the stats say Tom Brady is the best to play the position.

Tough question.   Mine is the eye test.   Most stats are not good indicators.  Several media folks have said that Rivers' stats should get him in the HOF even though he wasn't one of the 3 best QB's in any year of his career (maybe not top 5). 

I've never thought that 4th quarter comebacks was good stat.   To me it shows that the team let themselves get behind in the first place. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Myles said:

Tough question.   Mine is the eye test.   Most stats are not good indicators.  Several media folks have said that Rivers' stats should get him in the HOF even though he wasn't one of the 3 best QB's in any year of his career (maybe not top 5). 

I've never thought that 4th quarter comebacks was good stat.   To me it shows that the team let themselves get behind in the first place. 

 

 

 

If there is no standard then it sounds like it is simply the QB's you like the best. How are stats not good indicators? Football is not baseball where a player can hang on for years as a DH and compile stats.  What is your eye test based on? Who throws the tightest spiral? It wasn't Manning. Who looks the most like a football player? If I went by my favorite QB's or the ones I enjoyed watching most then my top 5 would be Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Mike Vick, Steve Young, and Joe Montana. I'm not saying you are doing this, but I personally feel that a lot of people who say stats don't matter are saying so because Tom Brady has the stats.

 

At the end of the day, all of this is just opinion and all in good fun. I hope no one thinks I am attacking their view. My opinion is based on the stats and not feelings. I enjoy reading what other people base their opinions on and then bantering with them. To me this is the whole purpose of a forum like this. A great place for people from different walks of life and different viewpoints coming together and discussing something we all love...Football! 

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5 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

If there is no standard then it sounds like it is simply the QB's you like the best. How are stats not good indicators? Football is not baseball where a player can hang on for years as a DH and compile stats.  What is your eye test based on? Who throws the tightest spiral? It wasn't Manning. Who looks the most like a football player? If I went by my favorite QB's or the ones I enjoyed watching most then my top 5 would be Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Mike Vick, Steve Young, and Joe Montana. I'm not saying you are doing this, but I personally feel that a lot of people who say stats don't matter are saying so because Tom Brady has the stats.

 

At the end of the day, all of this is just opinion and all in good fun. I hope no one thinks I am attacking their view. My opinion is based on the stats and not feelings. I enjoy reading what other people base their opinions on and then bantering with them. To me this is the whole purpose of a forum like this. A great place for people from different walks of life and different viewpoints coming together and discussing something we all love...Football! 

I understand your thinking.   It's just tough in a game that has changed so much.   The NFL has pretty much made stats useless with their changing rules.   Of course QB's in the 2000's look great, but they are playing a different game.   Rivers stats look great, but he was not a top 3 QB in any year he played.  

To answer your question about how to determine the best QB of all time, I don't think there is a good way.   Too subjective.   Marino did not win a Super Bowl, but anyone who watched him play knew he was incredible and one of the best of all time.   Anyone who watched Manning knew that he was one of the best of all time.   He was the OC on the field.  

Just this season, Brady, MaHolmes, Brees and others stats would put all older QB's to shame.  

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5 minutes ago, Myles said:

To answer your question about how to determine the best QB of all time, I don't think there is a good way.    

 

I totally agree that there is no good way. I just enjoy this discussion! I don't know enough about college football and the needs of every NFL team to get into all the mock draft discussions so this thread has been fun for me.

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5 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

I totally agree that there is no good way. I just enjoy this discussion! I don't know enough about college football and the needs of every NFL team to get into all the mock draft discussions so this thread has been fun for me.

That is fair.

Just my eye test, Marino, Manning, Montana and Young were the best I have ever seen. 

 

 

https://youtu.be/6KKzFA5INe0

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, LockeDown said:
  • Give Brady the Colts offense and defense  the year Luck got injured with Grigson not speaking to Pagano.  Let’s see how the Supposed GOAT would handle a collapsing Oline, receivers with no separation, inferior p,ay calling, a defense that isn’t going to help him out and see how well he does.  He wouldn’t .  But Peyton Manning would call that a playoff team. He would call his own plays, get receivers open, make the throw before he gets hit and then get his 6th mvp award. 

I think this is why there will always be an argument for Peyton as the GOAT. He easily the number one choice of modern era QB's if you needed a QB to take your team from last to the playoffs. 

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

Just this season, Brady, MaHolmes, Brees and others stats would put all older QB's to shame.  

 

 

Luck and Stafford are #2 and #3 in passing yards per game at the moment which says a lot.  

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On 2/4/2019 at 5:23 PM, Luck is Good said:

Bottom line is that when the chips are on the table, I’m taking Brady as my QB

 

4 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

I totally agree that there is no good way.

 

I think you guys are having a hard time separating Tom Brady as a QB from Bill Belichick and the Pats team success.

 

Try this exercise:

 

Two identical teams are playing each other.  Both teams' RBs are Bo Jackson.  Both teams' WRs are Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, and Welker/Edelman in the slot.  Both TEs are Gronk.  Identical OLines.  Both defenses have Reggie White, LT, Ray Lewis, Deion Sanders, Ed Reed, etc.  Both have Vinny as the K.

 

And both have Bill Belichick as the HC.  There's no advantage for either team when it comes to talent or schemes or coaching.  Everything is identical and equal except one team has Tom Brady and the other has Peyton Manning.  Or Joe Montana.  Or Aaron Rodgers.  It literally comes down to how well can they play the QB position.

 

You have to separate all the past team success and statistics that involved other players, and it comes down to being able to read the defense and make all the right calls, and then make all the right throws.  You strip away the differences in teammates, coaches, systems, everything.

 

Is Tom Brady really better than every other QB when you boil it down like that?

 

If everything else is equal, I know I would rather have Peyton running the offense than any other QB.

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8 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

What is your criteria for being the GOAT? Passing yards? Brady has passed all of them on your list except Manning which he will in the 2019 season. Touchdowns? Once again Brady has or will pass every single one on the list. Completed passes? Again Brady will pass them all. Interceptions thrown? Manning and Marino threw more interceptions but Montana and Young threw less than Brady. 4th quarter comebacks? Manning does have Brady in that category but they are 1 and 2.

 

There's nothing definitive, but arguing that Brady has great resume all around -- even without focusing on the rings -- is legitimate, and that's what my initial point was in this thread. 

 

I push back against the "winning" narrative because winning requires good teams, and Brady has benefited from great support throughout his career. But his achievements throughout his career are significant enough that he certainly belongs in the discussion, without resorting to the "winning" argument.

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8 hours ago, Myles said:

I've never thought that 4th quarter comebacks was good stat.   To me it shows that the team let themselves get behind in the first place. 

 

I don't understand this argument. 

 

Teams fall behind. It's part of the game. Having a playmaker at QB who can perform when the stakes are high is valuable, and not every QB can rise to the moment; some consistently shrink. 

 

Also, every 4QCB or GWD isn't about overcoming a big deficit. And it certainly doesn't imply that the QB play was deficient to that point. 

 

Of course, it usually requires stops on defense to complete a comeback, so even that stat shouldn't be totally credited to the offense, certainly not the QB. But when a QB leads a big drive late in a game, or makes big plays to overcome a deficit, that speaks to the QB's ability to perform in the clutch. And it's something every winning team needs from time to time.

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16 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't understand this argument. 

 

Teams fall behind. It's part of the game. Having a playmaker at QB who can perform when the stakes are high is valuable, and not every QB can rise to the moment; some consistently shrink. 

 

Also, every 4QCB or GWD isn't about overcoming a big deficit. And it certainly doesn't imply that the QB play was deficient to that point. 

 

Of course, it usually requires stops on defense to complete a comeback, so even that stat shouldn't be totally credited to the offense, certainly not the QB. But when a QB leads a big drive late in a game, or makes big plays to overcome a deficit, that speaks to the QB's ability to perform in the clutch. And it's something every winning team needs from time to time.

I can see using a % based stat, but not a total.  That would punish a QB who consistently keeps his team in the lead.  

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10 minutes ago, Myles said:

I can see using a % based stat, but not a total.  That would punish a QB who consistently keeps his team in the lead.  

 

The Ringer did a story after Rodgers' comeback in Week 1. (Interesting partly because Rodgers is a rare outlier: an elite QB who doesn't have a lot of comebacks, and has a low comeback percentage.) It includes percentages.

 

I don't think there's a lot of differential, but the percentage definitely adds context to the total stat. For instance, Manning had 22 additional comeback opportunities (as of Week 1) in 13 more games. Manning's success rate was .489, Brady's was .515. (There are also games where the offense takes the lead, then the defense turns right around and gives it up; 2010 playoff game against the Jets is an example of why context is always needed.)

 

But I really don't agree with the bolded. It gets right back to the idea that wins are a QB accomplishment. Having a lead in the 4th quarter is a team accomplishment. Without digging into each situation it's impossible to say whether the QB deserves credit for the team having the lead, or if he was just along for the ride. Conversely, we can't say the QB is to blame for being behind in the 4th quarter. Overall, I think it's irrelevant -- every team will need to come from behind now and again, and when a QB can make plays in high pressure situations, it helps the team come back and finish games.

 

Separate but related: the QB at the top of the comeback list, by percentage, is Mr. Andrew Luck, at .520. Thirteen out of 25, as of Week 1 this year. 

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1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

 

I think you guys are having a hard time separating Tom Brady as a QB from Bill Belichick and the Pats team success.

 

Try this exercise:

 

Two identical teams are playing each other.  Both teams' RBs are Bo Jackson.  Both teams' WRs are Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, and Welker/Edelman in the slot.  Both TEs are Gronk.  Identical OLines.  Both defenses have Reggie White, LT, Ray Lewis, Deion Sanders, Ed Reed, etc.  Both have Vinny as the K.

 

And both have Bill Belichick as the HC.  There's no advantage for either team when it comes to talent or schemes or coaching.  Everything is identical and equal except one team has Tom Brady and the other has Peyton Manning.  Or Joe Montana.  Or Aaron Rodgers.  It literally comes down to how well can they play the QB position.

 

You have to separate all the past team success and statistics that involved other players, and it comes down to being able to read the defense and make all the right calls, and then make all the right throws.  You strip away the differences in teammates, coaches, systems, everything.

 

Is Tom Brady really better than every other QB when you boil it down like that?

 

If everything else is equal, I know I would rather have Peyton running the offense than any other QB.

 

I still take Brady. The thing is you can't strip everything down. Sometimes I think this forum forgets that Peyton Manning could barely throw the ball at the end of his career. His second Super Bowl there were people calling for Brock Osweiler to start instead of him. There was no doubt in New England who would be starting the Super Bowl last weekend. There were no calls for Brain Hoyer. Tom Brady continues to play the game at an unbelievable level. Granted Father Time is undefeated in sports and Tom Brady's talents will fade but he has done it longer at a higher level than anyone.

 

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/01/04/kiszla-why-brock-osweiler-should-start-at-qb-with-peyton-manning-in-relief/

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7 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

The thing is you can't strip everything down.

 

Then you have to give credit where credit is due: to the TEAM and the COACH.

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2 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Then you have to give credit where credit is due: to the TEAM and the COACH.

 

Why do the team and the coach get the credit in New England but they are looked at as a liability in Indianapolis? Peyton Manning won in spite of inferior coaching and teammates is how it seems most of the Manning for GOAT supporters are. Peyton Manning had a Hall of Fame head coach. He played with multiple Hall of Fame caliber players, so if you have to give the credit to the team and coach in New England then you must do the same in Indianapolis.

 

I've said it before here, but the Manning Colts are the 90's Atlanta Braves of the NFL. A great team that just happened to play in a time where there was a better great team. There's no shame in that. Tom Brady and the Patriots were just better. 

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25 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

I still take Brady. The thing is you can't strip everything down. Sometimes I think this forum forgets that Peyton Manning could barely throw the ball at the end of his career. His second Super Bowl there were people calling for Brock Osweiler to start instead of him. There was no doubt in New England who would be starting the Super Bowl last weekend. There were no calls for Brain Hoyer. Tom Brady continues to play the game at an unbelievable level. Granted Father Time is undefeated in sports and Tom Brady's talents will fade but he has done it longer at a higher level than anyone.

 

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/01/04/kiszla-why-brock-osweiler-should-start-at-qb-with-peyton-manning-in-relief/

Lets not kid ourselves, Osweiler wasn't beating the Pats in an AFC Title Game setting against Brady and Belichick. I get he and Denver beat them in the Regular Season but Regular Season and Playoffs are different. Peyton played good in that AFC Title Game. IMO Osweiler would've crapped the bed on that stage. BB was going for it on 4th and short that game too because he still respected Peyton even at the noodle arm stage.

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2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Lets not kid ourselves, Osweiler wasn't beating the Pats in an AFC Title Game setting against Brady and Belichick. I get he and Denver beat them in the Regular Season but Regular Season and Playoffs are different. Peyton played good in that AFC Title Game. IMO Osweiler would've crapped the bed on that stage. BB was going for it on 4th and short that game too because he still respected Peyton even at the noodle arm stage.

 

I'm not saying Osweiler would have done any better than Manning. I'm just saying there was legitimate talk of the possibility of starting him over Manning and that the Peyton Manning that won the Super Bowl in Denver was a far cry from the one that won in Indy.

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14 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

Why do the team and the coach get the credit in New England but they are looked at as a liability in Indianapolis?

 

I didn't say that the team and coach were a liability for Peyton.

 

The coaches and teams get credit for Peytons' Super Bowls.

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2 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

I'm not saying Osweiler would have done any better than Manning. I'm just saying there was legitimate talk of the possibility of starting him over Manning and that the Peyton Manning that won the Super Bowl in Denver was a far cry from the one that won in Indy.

Well I don't disagree Manning wasn't Indy Manning or even 2013 Manning in Denver but his presence being out there really helped Denver. It is amazing what Manning can do when he had a dominant Defense to depend on. He still won a SB with a noodle arm because he finally had defensive help.

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37 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Why do the team and the coach get the credit in New England but they are looked at as a liability in Indianapolis? Peyton Manning won in spite of inferior coaching and teammates is how it seems most of the Manning for GOAT supporters are. Peyton Manning had a Hall of Fame head coach. He played with multiple Hall of Fame caliber players, so if you have to give the credit to the team and coach in New England then you must do the same in Indianapolis.

 

I've said it before here, but the Manning Colts are the 90's Atlanta Braves of the NFL. A great team that just happened to play in a time where there was a better great team. There's no shame in that. Tom Brady and the Patriots were just better. 

To your first sentence, it's because although Tony Dungy is a Hall of Fame coach he isn't on Bill Belichick's level. Also regarding Manning, the other coaches he had were Jim Caldwell, John Fox, and Gary Kubiak. Those guys aren't even close to Belichick's level.

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8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To your first sentence, it's because although Tony Dungy is a Hall of Fame coach he isn't on Bill Belichick's level. Also regarding Manning, the other coaches he had were Jim Caldwell, John Fox, and Gary Kubiak. Those guys aren't even close to Belichick's level.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate here. If Peyton Manning was the GOAT shouldn't he have been able to make up for the deficiencies of inferior coaching? Because it doesn't matter how good a coach is, if the players don't execute then the superior coaching is all for naught. Maybe Peyton Manning would have been better off if he would have had less autonomy and been a "system" QB like some people have accused Brady of being. 

 

I certainly hope that people don't think I think Manning is a chump and not a great QB. In my opinion Brady, Montana, and Manning are the 3 best to ever play the position and the difference is infinitesimally small. I give the edge to Brady because of the 6 rings. I think because the stats and the winning are so close that the championships come in as the tie breaker.

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9 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Well I don't disagree Manning wasn't Indy Manning or even 2013 Manning in Denver but his presence being out there really helped Denver. It is amazing what Manning can do when he had a dominant Defense to depend on. He still won a SB with a noodle arm because he finally had defensive help.

 

 And he can thank our running game, the defense, and Rex Grossman for his other SB win. It wasn't his beautiful Goat mind.

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10 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Lets not kid ourselves, Osweiler wasn't beating the Pats in an AFC Title Game setting against Brady and Belichick. I get he and Denver beat them in the Regular Season but Regular Season and Playoffs are different. Peyton played good in that AFC Title Game. IMO Osweiler would've crapped the bed on that stage. BB was going for it on 4th and short that game too because he still respected Peyton even at the noodle arm stage.

 

BB was going for it on 4th down because he respected their defense that much, he didn't think they would be able to drive down the field again and they also needed a touchdown and 2 point conversion to tie the game. Peyton was shot when they went for those 4th downs (Broncos went 3 and out after both of those failed 4th downs). His legs and arms were only good for 15-20 throws or so per game after he had injured his foot earlier in the season. He was 8/15 for 55 yards and was sacked 3 times between that 2nd touchdown early in the 2nd quarter and when Pats went for it on 4th down for the first time.

 

However, I'm not convinced Osweiler would've won that game. At least by week 3 of the following season, Pats had figured out that Osweiler can't handle disguises (he and Texans were shutout in that game).

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1 hour ago, Finball said:

 

BB was going for it on 4th down because he respected their defense that much, he didn't think they would be able to drive down the field again and they also needed a touchdown and 2 point conversion to tie the game. Peyton was shot when they went for those 4th downs (Broncos went 3 and out after both of those failed 4th downs). His legs and arms were only good for 15-20 throws or so per game after he had injured his foot earlier in the season. He was 8/15 for 55 yards and was sacked 3 times between that 2nd touchdown early in the 2nd quarter and when Pats went for it on 4th down for the first time.

 

However, I'm not convinced Osweiler would've won that game. At least by week 3 of the following season, Pats had figured out that Osweiler can't handle disguises (he and Texans were shutout in that game).

Os would've needed diapers against Brady and BB lmao 

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3 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Playing Devil's Advocate here. If Peyton Manning was the GOAT shouldn't he have been able to make up for the deficiencies of inferior coaching? Because it doesn't matter how good a coach is, if the players don't execute then the superior coaching is all for naught. Maybe Peyton Manning would have been better off if he would have had less autonomy and been a "system" QB like some people have accused Brady of being. 

 

I certainly hope that people don't think I think Manning is a chump and not a great QB. In my opinion Brady, Montana, and Manning are the 3 best to ever play the position and the difference is infinitesimally small. I give the edge to Brady because of the 6 rings. I think because the stats and the winning are so close that the championships come in as the tie breaker.

Those are my Top 3 as well :thmup:

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4 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 And he can thank our running game, the defense, and Rex Grossman for his other SB win. It wasn't his beautiful Goat mind.

its kind of petty to say this.  we all know hes the main reason the colts were so good in the 2000s.  they would not have made two super bowls without him

 

he set records in denver before he got hurt too.  he didnt do a whole lot after he got hurt, but im going to remember that run for a first down against the patriots.  

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