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coltsfeva

Why Brady is NOT the GOAT

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Before you assume I will substitute Manning, Unitas, Montana, Elway or anybody else, my first reason discounts any of them:

 

Reason #1. It is totally subjective. Brady is among the greatest but to single out anyone as “greater” than these other QBs is foolish. Football has changed over the years and Brady hasn’t had to deal with DBs mauling his receivers like Otto Graham (who has 7 championships), Starr (who has 5) or Unitas (who has 4). 

 

Reason #2: Defense wins championships 

 

In his 5 Championship years of 2001,2003,2004,2014 and 2016, Brady’s defenses have ranked 6th, 1st, 2nd, 8th and 1st respectively. (Points given up).

 

Reason #3: He cheated and got caught. Part of being great is playing by the rules. Mr Brady’s legacy will always be tainted and that in itself does enough to disqualify him in many people’s mind.

 

Reason # 4 Brady NEVER had to match wits with Belichick. That’s a big deal. Belichick is a master of the game (even without cheating). Opposing QBs and coaches have found that out the hard way.

 

  Brady doesn’t possess the strongest arm, he’s not the most accurate, he definitely can’t out-scramble others that have that ability, nor is he the most cerebral. So, how can he be the “GOAT”? 

 

     Bottom line is, there’s no GOAT. But he’s definitely one of the most accomplished.

    Too much is contingent on coaching, opposition, strength of team, era, etc for one player to be “absolutely” the greatest.

     

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3 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

Before you assume I will substitute Manning, Unitas, Montana, Elway or anybody else, my first reason discounts any of them:

 

Reason #1. It is totally subjective. Brady is among the greatest but to single out anyone as “greater” than these other QBs is foolish. Football has changed over the years and Brady hasn’t had to deal with DBs mauling his receivers like Otto Graham (who has 7 championships), Starr (who has 5) or Unitas (who has 4). 

 

Reason #2: Defense wins championships 

 

In his 5 Championship years of 2001,2003,2004,2014 and 2016, Brady’s defenses have ranked 6th, 1st, 2nd, 8th and 1st respectively. (Points given up).

 

Reason #3: He cheated and got caught. Part of being great is playing by the rules. Mr Brady’s legacy will always be tainted and that in itself does enough to disqualify him in many people’s mind.

 

Reason # 4 Brady NEVER had to match wits with Belichick. That’s a big deal. Belichick is a master of the game (even without cheating). Opposing QBs and coaches have found that out the hard way.

 

  Brady doesn’t possess the strongest arm, he’s not the most accurate, he definitely can’t out-scramble others that have that ability, nor is he the most cerebral. So, how can he be the “GOAT”? 

 

     Bottom line is, there’s no GOAT. He’s definitely one of the greatest.  Too much is contingent on coaching, opposition, strength of team, era, etc

     

You named all the guys in my top 5 = Brady, Montana, Peyton, Unitas, and Elway. All have great resumes = SB wins/NFL Championships, Overall wins, League MVP's, great Stats, and all have had clutch moments in their career's. It is definitely subjective with that debate.

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Brady shouldn't even be remotely in the conversation of GOAT!!! Especially when everyone knows he CHEATS!!!

 

Even without knowing they cheat, can you imagine his career with a 'average non-cheating' organization?

 

Since his only skill seems to be very short accurate passes(that opposing defenses don't usually try to defend) how can anyone even think he belongs even in the conversation?

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Brady had the perfect system  to have his career under. The main Question is, could he have done it with another team like Peyton did it.   

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This is pointless not because I believe Brady is the GOAT or because I believe someone else is instead, but because it is all subjective in nature.  Until we have a list of criteria and someone checks off all the boxes better than everyone else, nobody will be considered the GOAT IMHO.  There are a lot of players that will be considered but none meet a criteria that does not currently exist.

 

Those who say Brady is the GOAT will point to his Superbowl appearances/wins.  However, that has never been a sole criteria of mine.  I have always viewed wins/losses as TEAM accomplishments.  Instead, I have used that as a tie-breaking mechanism between two players that have demonstrated top of the line individual statistics, etc.  

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17 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

This is pointless not because I believe Brady is the GOAT or because I believe someone else is instead, but because it is all subjective in nature.  Until we have a list of criteria and someone checks off all the boxes better than everyone else, nobody will be considered the GOAT IMHO.  There are a lot of players that will be considered but none meet a criteria that does not currently exist.

 

Those who say Brady is the GOAT will point to his Superbowl appearances/wins.  However, that has never been a sole criteria of mine.  I have always viewed wins/losses as TEAM accomplishments.  Instead, I have used that as a tie-breaking mechanism between two players that have demonstrated top of the line individual statistics, etc.  

One huge thing Peyton has that checks of a box is, he proved he could go to 4 SB's with 4 different coaches and won 2 with 2 different teams. No other QB has ever done that. He proved he is the system and his ability to call his own plays at the line is the best in NFL History. He also is 3-1 vs Belichick in AFC Title Games which Patriots fans never seem to mention. That is impressive.

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Sighs...

 

This basically comes down to "Brady isn't the GOAT because I don't want him to be," and that's not gonna fly.

 

There are no holes in Brady's GOAT candidacy. He has the individual statistics, the career achievements, the longevity, he's performed at a high level in the most clutch situations over and over, regular season and playoffs, he's technically proficient in every way, he's mentally and physically tough, he's cerebral and in command of his offense, and right now he's performing at a level that's unprecedented for a QB at his age.

 

It's up to individual viewers to determine whether he's benefited from cheating, and to what extent, and then weight that against his GOAT candidacy, but IMO it's cheap. I believe Brady was at least aware of the ball deflation scheme a few years ago, but in that particular game they beat us 45-7 and Brady wasn't even a major factor. To me, his resume more than makes up for any transgressions from him or his team. Bringing up "cheating" strikes me as petty, and I'm in no way a Brady/Pats sympathizer.

 

I also think he's had a great set of circumstances his entire career -- greatest coach of all time, stable organization, luck of the draw in a lot of cases, good defenses, etc. The ball always seems to bounce his way. Instead of throwing the game ending INT, he gets bailed out by an inconsequential alignment penalty (right call, but it had no impact on the outcome of the play), and then they get the ball first in OT (just like they did in SB51). His postseason legacy began with the Tuck Rule. There are other examples, and the point is not to take credit away from him, just to highlight the fact that his teams get lucky a lot.

 

Add to that the good fortune to have stayed healthy for almost his entire career, into his 40s. He hasn't missed a game due to injury in ten seasons. Compare that to other GOAT candidates -- Manning, Marino, Montana, Elway, etc. -- who got hurt or whose bodies started to break down due to no fault of their own. Rodgers is a current guy in that category, and even Brees at times look like he's physically slowing down.

 

I think there are a lot of GOAT candidates who were more physically capable and talented, like Marino and Elway. I think Manning was as tough physically and mentally, and more cerebral. Montana was just as clutch and just as much of a winner, and for much of his career he benefited from the organizational stability and coaching that Brady has. If you put any of those guys in Brady's situation and kept them upright and healthy in their late 30s and early 40s, with the QB protections that are in place now, I think they would have been as productive and successful as Brady has been.

 

I also think that "wins" and "rings" are disproportionately credited to QBs, especially against good teams in the playoffs. To me, the outcome of tomorrow's game will have virtually no impact on my opinion of Brady's GOAT candidacy. Whenever this conversation turns to "wins" and "rings," I know it's not going to be a genuine discussion. 

 

And yes, to a certain extent, it's a subjective discussion. But that being the case, you can't really say that Brady isn't the GOAT. He has as strong a case for being the GOAT as anyone else, and he's continuing to add to his legacy. 

 

He's not my favorite, and I don't think he's necessarily more talented or more capable than any of the other greats. But his career is turning out to be the greatest of any NFL QB, and I think it takes some significant disregard for the facts to say otherwise. JMO

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35 minutes ago, Superman said:

Sighs...

 

This basically comes down to "Brady isn't the GOAT because I don't want him to be," and that's not gonna fly.

 

There are no holes in Brady's GOAT candidacy. He has the individual statistics, the career achievements, the longevity, he's performed at a high level in the most clutch situations over and over, regular season and playoffs, he's technically proficient in every way, he's mentally and physically tough, he's cerebral and in command of his offense, and right now he's performing at a level that's unprecedented for a QB at his age.

 

It's up to individual viewers to determine whether he's benefited from cheating, and to what extent, and then weight that against his GOAT candidacy, but IMO it's cheap. I believe Brady was at least aware of the ball deflation scheme a few years ago, but in that particular game they beat us 45-7 and Brady wasn't even a major factor. To me, his resume more than makes up for any transgressions from him or his team. Bringing up "cheating" strikes me as petty, and I'm in no way a Brady/Pats sympathizer.

 

I also think he's had a great set of circumstances his entire career -- greatest coach of all time, stable organization, luck of the draw in a lot of cases, good defenses, etc. The ball always seems to bounce his way. Instead of throwing the game ending INT, he gets bailed out by an inconsequential alignment penalty (right call, but it had no impact on the outcome of the play), and then they get the ball first in OT (just like they did in SB51). His postseason legacy began with the Tuck Rule. There are other examples, and the point is not to take credit away from him, just to highlight the fact that his teams get lucky a lot.

 

Add to that the good fortune to have stayed healthy for almost his entire career, into his 40s. He hasn't missed a game due to injury in ten seasons. Compare that to other GOAT candidates -- Manning, Marino, Montana, Elway, etc. -- who got hurt or whose bodies started to break down due to no fault of their own. Rodgers is a current guy in that category, and even Brees at times look like he's physically slowing down.

 

I think there are a lot of GOAT candidates who were more physically capable and talented, like Marino and Elway. I think Manning was as tough physically and mentally, and more cerebral. Montana was just as clutch and just as much of a winner, and for much of his career he benefited from the organizational stability and coaching that Brady has. If you put any of those guys in Brady's situation and kept them upright and healthy in their late 30s and early 40s, with the QB protections that are in place now, I think they would have been as productive and successful as Brady has been.

 

I also think that "wins" and "rings" are disproportionately credited to QBs, especially against good teams in the playoffs. To me, the outcome of tomorrow's game will have virtually no impact on my opinion of Brady's GOAT candidacy. Whenever this conversation turns to "wins" and "rings," I know it's not going to be a genuine discussion. 

 

And yes, to a certain extent, it's a subjective discussion. But that being the case, you can't really say that Brady isn't the GOAT. He has as strong a case for being the GOAT as anyone else, and he's continuing to add to his legacy. 

 

He's not my favorite, and I don't think he's necessarily more talented or more capable than any of the other greats. But his career is turning out to be the greatest of any NFL QB, and I think it takes some significant disregard for the facts to say otherwise. JMO

I can make alot of the same arguments for Emmitt Smith being the greatest RB ever that you just made for Brady being the GOAT. Put Emmitt Smith's Longevity, his career Stats, and SB wins up against Jim Brown's, Walter Payton's, and Barry Sanders and it is not even a debate. Emmitt is clearly the GOAT. Also the Cowboys were a run first team so he was the main reason the Cowboys won 3 SB's not Troy Aikman. I guess my point is if people dispute Emmitt being the GOAT than it is disputable that Brady is the GOAT. Most people say Brown, Payton, and Sanders were all better than Smith.

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Exactly right Superman. Brady just keeps adding to his accomplishments. The guy has the most decorated QB career in NFL history. He just wins games. He’s the reason that team is in the SB almost every year. If I need one drive to win a game, I’m taking him all day. Not a doubt in my mind

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It’s the bias against the Patriots that propels the hate. Every team cheats. It’s just whether it becomes public. Peyton was a great QB. No one can ever deny that. But he’s not better than Brady. That’s just a fact

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7 minutes ago, Luck is Good said:

Exactly right Superman. Brady just keeps adding to his accomplishments. The guy has the most decorated QB career in NFL history. He just wins games. He’s the reason that team is in the SB almost every year. If I need one drive to win a game, I’m taking him all day. Not a doubt in my mind

I have no problem putting Brady as the GOAT but the same people that do, have to put Emmitt Smith as the GOAT RB. Otherwise they are contradicting why they think Brady is the GOAT QB. Peyton is in the top 3 at worse so I am fine with that.

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10 minutes ago, Luck is Good said:

Exactly right Superman. Brady just keeps adding to his accomplishments. The guy has the most decorated QB career in NFL history. He just wins games. He’s the reason that team is in the SB almost every year. If I need one drive to win a game, I’m taking him all day. Not a doubt in my mind

 

5 minutes ago, Luck is Good said:

It’s the bias against the Patriots that propels the hate. Every team cheats. It’s just whether it becomes public. Peyton was a great QB. No one can ever deny that. But he’s not better than Brady. That’s just a fact

 

I don't really agree with either of these posts.

 

Brady doesn't win games, the Pats do. He's a big part of that, but he's not dragging that team to the SB every year. He has a great team around him, he plays for the best coach in the history of the NFL, and he gets lucky a lot. But teams win games, especially in the playoffs.

 

And I think the weakest rationalization every is 'every team cheats.' The Patriots have been caught and penalized by the league on multiple occasions. I don't want to hear that every team cheats. Prove it. 

 

47 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I can make alot of the same arguments for Emmitt Smith being the greatest RB ever that you just made for Brady being the GOAT. Put Emmitt Smith's Longevity, his career Stats, and SB wins up against Jim Brown's, Walter Payton's, and Barry Sanders and it is not even a debate. Emmitt is clearly the GOAT. Also the Cowboys were a run first team so he was the main reason the Cowboys won 3 SB's not Troy Aikman. I guess my point is if people dispute Emmitt being the GOAT than it is disputable that Brady is the GOAT. Most people say Brown, Payton, and Sanders were all better than Smith.

 

So make those arguments. I don't really see how that relates in a thread about QBs. 

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3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

I don't really agree with either of these posts.

 

Brady doesn't win games, the Pats do. He's a big part of that, but he's not dragging that team to the SB every year. He has a great team around him, he plays for the best coach in the history of the NFL, and he gets lucky a lot. But teams win games, especially in the playoffs.

 

And I think the weakest rationalization every is 'every team cheats.' The Patriots have been caught and penalized by the league on multiple occasions. I don't want to hear that every team cheats. Prove it. 

 

So make those arguments. I don't really see how that relates in a thread about QBs. 

I just made my arguments for Emmitt being the GOAT. His Longevity, Stats, and SB wins for a RB are second to none. I know it's not a RB Thread but I was using Emmitt as an example to why people say Brady is the GOAT.

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2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I have no problem putting Brady as the GOAT but the same people that do, have to put Emmitt Smith as the GOAT RB. Otherwise they are contradicting why they think Brady is the GOAT QB. Peyton is in the top 3 at worse so I am fine with that.

Emmitt Smith is really good. How we view the RB position is definitely different than the QB position though. I don’t really have any more thoughts than that

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

I don't really agree with either of these posts.

 

Brady doesn't win games, the Pats do. He's a big part of that, but he's not dragging that team to the SB every year. He has a great team around him, he plays for the best coach in the history of the NFL, and he gets lucky a lot. But teams win games, especially in the playoffs.

 

And I think the weakest rationalization every is 'every team cheats.' The Patriots have been caught and penalized by the league on multiple occasions. I don't want to hear that every team cheats. Prove it. 

 

 

So make those arguments. I don't really see how that relates in a thread about QBs. 

You really think the Patriots make most of these SB appearances without Brady?

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Did we ever figure out why Brady destroyed his cellphone btw? That part still bugs me to this day. Obviously I can reason out why, but anything definitive yet?

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6 hours ago, Superman said:

Sighs...

 

This basically comes down to "Brady isn't the GOAT because I don't want him to be," and that's not gonna fly.

 

There are no holes in Brady's GOAT candidacy. He has the individual statistics, the career achievements, the longevity, he's performed at a high level in the most clutch situations over and over, regular season and playoffs, he's technically proficient in every way, he's mentally and physically tough, he's cerebral and in command of his offense, and right now he's performing at a level that's unprecedented for a QB at his age.

 

It's up to individual viewers to determine whether he's benefited from cheating, and to what extent, and then weight that against his GOAT candidacy, but IMO it's cheap. I believe Brady was at least aware of the ball deflation scheme a few years ago, but in that particular game they beat us 45-7 and Brady wasn't even a major factor. To me, his resume more than makes up for any transgressions from him or his team. Bringing up "cheating" strikes me as petty, and I'm in no way a Brady/Pats sympathizer.

 

I also think he's had a great set of circumstances his entire career -- greatest coach of all time, stable organization, luck of the draw in a lot of cases, good defenses, etc. The ball always seems to bounce his way. Instead of throwing the game ending INT, he gets bailed out by an inconsequential alignment penalty (right call, but it had no impact on the outcome of the play), and then they get the ball first in OT (just like they did in SB51). His postseason legacy began with the Tuck Rule. There are other examples, and the point is not to take credit away from him, just to highlight the fact that his teams get lucky a lot.

 

Add to that the good fortune to have stayed healthy for almost his entire career, into his 40s. He hasn't missed a game due to injury in ten seasons. Compare that to other GOAT candidates -- Manning, Marino, Montana, Elway, etc. -- who got hurt or whose bodies started to break down due to no fault of their own. Rodgers is a current guy in that category, and even Brees at times look like he's physically slowing down.

 

I think there are a lot of GOAT candidates who were more physically capable and talented, like Marino and Elway. I think Manning was as tough physically and mentally, and more cerebral. Montana was just as clutch and just as much of a winner, and for much of his career he benefited from the organizational stability and coaching that Brady has. If you put any of those guys in Brady's situation and kept them upright and healthy in their late 30s and early 40s, with the QB protections that are in place now, I think they would have been as productive and successful as Brady has been.

 

I also think that "wins" and "rings" are disproportionately credited to QBs, especially against good teams in the playoffs. To me, the outcome of tomorrow's game will have virtually no impact on my opinion of Brady's GOAT candidacy. Whenever this conversation turns to "wins" and "rings," I know it's not going to be a genuine discussion. 

 

And yes, to a certain extent, it's a subjective discussion. But that being the case, you can't really say that Brady isn't the GOAT. He has as strong a case for being the GOAT as anyone else, and he's continuing to add to his legacy. 

 

He's not my favorite, and I don't think he's necessarily more talented or more capable than any of the other greats. But his career is turning out to be the greatest of any NFL QB, and I think it takes some significant disregard for the facts to say otherwise. JMO

 

Deflategate...yeah. But Spygate...that was different. They cheated for several years...and won Super Bowls during that time. To what extent they cheated...we will never know. But it was bad enough that the NFL destroyed the evidence...and swept it under the rug.

 

I think that is a stain on the first 1/3 of his career. But what he's doing now is unprecedented and definitely puts him at the top. Though I think we can all agree that the preferential treatment NE gets is frustrating.

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4 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Deflategate...yeah. But Spygate...that was different. They cheated for several years...and won Super Bowls during that time. To what extent they cheated...we will never know. But it was bad enough that the NFL destroyed the evidence...and swept it under the rug.

 

I think that is a stain on the first 1/3 of his career. But what he's doing now is unprecedented and definitely puts him at the top. Though I think we can all agree that the preferential treatment NE gets is frustrating.

I agree on Spygate. Ask Philly or Pittsburgh or St Louis if they win those first three Superbowls without cheating. We also know the Colts would love to speak about this and Dungy has a little.

 

What Brady is doing now is unprecedented for his age; however, it sure is a shame that Seattle and Atlanta didn't run the ball. 

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Brady adds to his accomplishments? In the super bowl today, he threw 1 difficult pass. There’s also this:

 

He also had 1TD, 3INT in the last two games. He just doesn’t fit the bill other than the luck that’s been on his side since his career began

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Really it isn't Tom's fault these other QB's suck butt in the clutch = Wilson getting picked at the 1 yard line with a sure win, Ryan just not handing off and the ATL kicking a FG to go up 11, or Goff's craptastic performance tonight lmao. Hey if teams can't beat them, not his fault. The Manning's could beat him, Peyton 3-1 in AFC Title Games, Eli 2-0 in SB's, everyone else MEH.

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21 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Really it isn't Tom's fault these other QB's suck butt in the clutch = Wilson getting picked at the 1 yard line with a sure win, Ryan just not handing off and the ATL kicking a FG to go up 11, or Goff's craptastic performance tonight lmao. Hey if teams can't beat them, not his fault. The Manning's could beat him, Peyton 3-1 in AFC Title Games, Eli 2-0 in SB's, everyone else MEH.

These are coaching gaffs. 

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On 2/2/2019 at 7:23 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I just made my arguments for Emmitt being the GOAT. His Longevity, Stats, and SB wins for a RB are second to none. I know it's not a RB Thread but I was using Emmitt as an example to why people say Brady is the GOAT.

 

Plus Emmit and his coach never got caught or accused of cheating.

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Look, here is the thing: football is the ultimate team game.  One individual player, no matter how talented, can really only do so much to carry a team to victory with minimal assistance fromo other phases which is why it is utterly ridiculous that the basis of the Brady GOAT proclamation is based a team accomplishment: SB rings.  

 

Before I go further, let me start off by saying that in my opinion, at worst, Brady is a top 3-5 all time great QB to play this game.  He has really enhanced his ability to read coverages through the years and his longevity over the years due to his training and nutrition regimen is remarkable.   

 

However, the two facts that I feel are critical here are following

 

1. In games that Tom Brady has missed since he took over as starter, the Patriots are 14-6, which is a very good record indicating that the team has shown they are clearly capable of winning football games without him

2.  He has had Belichek as his head coach, managing the other facets of the game that are clearly critical to winning games for all of his SB championships.  This is critical because it has allowed Brady the luxury through his career of winning, advancing in the playoffs when sometimes his play was not up to levels that other QBs in this conversation have had to meet in order to get their team to go forward.

 

In the end of day, this narrative of Brady as the undisputed GOAT has been repeated so many times by the mainstream sports media, that is simply accepted as fact without anyone caring to peel back the layers.   

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On 2/2/2019 at 3:02 PM, coltsfeva said:

Before you assume I will substitute Manning, Unitas, Montana, Elway or anybody else, my first reason discounts any of them:

 

Reason #1. It is totally subjective. Brady is among the greatest but to single out anyone as “greater” than these other QBs is foolish. Football has changed over the years and Brady hasn’t had to deal with DBs mauling his receivers like Otto Graham (who has 7 championships), Starr (who has 5) or Unitas (who has 4). 

 

Reason #2: Defense wins championships 

 

In his 5 Championship years of 2001,2003,2004,2014 and 2016, Brady’s defenses have ranked 6th, 1st, 2nd, 8th and 1st respectively. (Points given up).

 

Reason #3: He cheated and got caught. Part of being great is playing by the rules. Mr Brady’s legacy will always be tainted and that in itself does enough to disqualify him in many people’s mind.

 

Reason # 4 Brady NEVER had to match wits with Belichick. That’s a big deal. Belichick is a master of the game (even without cheating). Opposing QBs and coaches have found that out the hard way.

 

  Brady doesn’t possess the strongest arm, he’s not the most accurate, he definitely can’t out-scramble others that have that ability, nor is he the most cerebral. So, how can he be the “GOAT”? 

 

     Bottom line is, there’s no GOAT. But he’s definitely one of the most accomplished.

    Too much is contingent on coaching, opposition, strength of team, era, etc for one player to be “absolutely” the greatest.

     

I only take objection to “most accurate” that be inaccurate he is amazingly accurate all threwout his career.. even this game he made huge accurate throws get that TDs.

 

i agree that GOAT is subjective and hard threw many generations.. I say sit back and enjoy watching players like Brady as they are rare and well they should be enjoyed

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2 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Plus Emmit and his coach never got caught or accused of cheating.

Emmitt is the GOAT RB to me and it isn't even debatable. Here is why: He is the All-Time Leading Rusher (nobody will ever gain more yards than him), his longevity is unmatched at his position, and he was the main reason the Cowboys won 3 SB's in 4 seasons not the QB Aikman. He never cheated either lmao and he has lovely gray beard :funny:

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I got news for the Pats, had they played against the 90's Cowboys they would've got smoked. That Cowboys Defense was relentless with speed and Aikman never turned the ball over, Smith is the GOAT, and nobody could cover Irvin. I know many here aren't Cowboys fans (nor am I) but speaking the truth here. The Cowboys O.Line was the best in NFL History from 92-95, Jimmy Johnson was Bill Belichick for a short stint. 

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13 minutes ago, DarkSuperman said:

Winning 6 Lombardi's and hosting 9 Superbowls makes you the GOAT.

No it doesnt. 

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Lol I don't wanna hear it... Bill Belicheck is rolling. The Patriots no pass rush showing up has nothing to do with Brady. Gilmore being a shutdown corner after the travesty in Buffalo, has nothing to do with Brady. Weswelkerwoodheadjulianeldam being WIDE open over the middle. A very little to do with Brady.

 

I mean we've seen Marvin Harrison double move someone and get open. But good lord, every single time Julian??

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 3:02 PM, coltsfeva said:

Before you assume I will substitute Manning, Unitas, Montana, Elway or anybody else, my first reason discounts any of them:

 

Reason #1. It is totally subjective. Brady is among the greatest but to single out anyone as “greater” than these other QBs is foolish. Football has changed over the years and Brady hasn’t had to deal with DBs mauling his receivers like Otto Graham (who has 7 championships), Starr (who has 5) or Unitas (who has 4). 

 

Reason #2: Defense wins championships 

 

In his 5 Championship years of 2001,2003,2004,2014 and 2016, Brady’s defenses have ranked 6th, 1st, 2nd, 8th and 1st respectively. (Points given up).

 

Reason #3: He cheated and got caught. Part of being great is playing by the rules. Mr Brady’s legacy will always be tainted and that in itself does enough to disqualify him in many people’s mind.

 

Reason # 4 Brady NEVER had to match wits with Belichick. That’s a big deal. Belichick is a master of the game (even without cheating). Opposing QBs and coaches have found that out the hard way.

 

  Brady doesn’t possess the strongest arm, he’s not the most accurate, he definitely can’t out-scramble others that have that ability, nor is he the most cerebral. So, how can he be the “GOAT”? 

 

     Bottom line is, there’s no GOAT. But he’s definitely one of the most accomplished.

    Too much is contingent on coaching, opposition, strength of team, era, etc for one player to be “absolutely” the greatest.

     

He will always be a cheater in my mind I couldn't believe just how fixed that game looked last night.

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Unless you have watched Unitas and Graham play, you are not qualified to give an opinion on the GOAT. This debate is cooked up by media members. Best QB of last 20 years, yes. Best ever is disrespectful to history of the game. Also ignorant 

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https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/02/04/super-bowl-53-tom-brady-goat

 

This article written after game last night is a classic example of the nonsensical drivel that gets written every time the Pats win a SB, basically turning a team accomplishment into an individual accolade

 

In it, the author provides no substantive reason why last night "settled" the debate other than him winning his 6th ring.

 

Any rational, objective person watching that game last night can see Brady "winning" had more to do with his defense basically shutting down the Rams than anything.

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Arguing the GOAT in a team sport where you rely on 50 other players and 15 coaches is an exercise in futility. It's completely subjective and nobody can ever be right, except in there own mind.

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Brady is a great QB although he has benefited from the greatest system in NFL history. Bill is a genius like no other and is easily the greatest coach of all time. Brady ALWAYS had great defenses and has the players that play in that system to a tee. Brady anywhere else would be average so I agree he is not the greatest QB of all time. 

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On 2/2/2019 at 6:22 PM, Luck is Good said:

You really think the Patriots make most of these SB appearances without Brady?

 

I never said that. I said claiming that 'Brady just wins games' and 'is the reason they're in the SB every year' is fallacious. This year is a perfect example. They were in the SB because Dee Ford lined up offsides. They won yesterday because their defense played a phenomenal game; Brady hardly did anything. 

 

And then I saw these stats last night: (they won't embed for some reason, but here are the links)

 

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1092261507981815808

Quote

Playoff W-L record since 2001 with a passer rating < 73.5 on 33+ attempts: Tom Brady: 7-3 (70.0%) Every other QB combined: 5-62 (7.5%)

 

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1092420772289830913

Quote

Career playoff W-L record with a passer rating < 73.5 on 33+ attempts: Tom Brady: 7-3 (70.0%) Every other QB in NFL history combined: 27-173 (13.5%) You get the idea.

 

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1092261507981815808

Quote

Career playoff W-L record with a passer rating < 78.5 on 25+ attempts: Tom Brady: 10-4 (71.4%) Every other QB in NFL history: 89-307 (22.5%)

 

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1092261135536087041

Quote

Playoff W-L record since 2001 with a passer rating < 86.5 on 25+ attempts: Tom Brady: 11-6 (64.7%) Every other QB combined: 39-112 (25.8%)

 

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1092260900847927297

Quote

Playoff W-L record when throwing more INT's than TD's since 2001 (min. 33 attempts): Tom Brady: 6-4 (60.0%) Every other QB combined: 4-51 (7.3%)

 

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1092260541207334913

Quote

Playoff wins since 2001 with < 78.5 passer rating on 33+ attempts: Tom Brady: 9-4 (69.2%) Every other QB combined: 9-72 (11.1%)

 

The Pats win playoff games even when Brady plays like a below average QB, so saying 'he just wins' is a misrepresentation. 

 

And that's true even in a general sense. "QB wins" is a fallacy to begin with, because football is the ultimate team sport. I'll agree that there are certain games where the QB deserves credit for dragging his team to a win -- the Week 1 game between the Packers and Bears stands out, or Colts vs Dolphins in 2009, Week 2, just as easily recognizable examples. But in general, the QB gets too much credit for a big win, and too much blame for a big loss. 

 

So looking more specifically at the Patriots in the postseason, it becomes pretty obvious why this narrative that 'he just wins' doesn't hold up, and needs to die. The more accurate statement would be 'they just win.' 

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4 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

Brady is a great QB although he has benefited from the greatest system in NFL history. Bill is a genius like no other and is easily the greatest coach of all time. Brady ALWAYS had great defenses and has the players that play in that system to a tee. Brady anywhere else would be average so I agree he is not the greatest QB of all time. 

I still think Brady would be great on any team but he would not have 6 SB wins without Belichick that I am sure of and that is why people label him the GOAT. 

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10 hours ago, SR711 said:

it is utterly ridiculous that the basis of the Brady GOAT proclamation is based a team accomplishment

 

I agree. However, I think Brady has a strong GOAT argument without relying solely on rings.

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On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, shastamasta said:

 

Deflategate...yeah. But Spygate...that was different. They cheated for several years...and won Super Bowls during that time. To what extent they cheated...we will never know. But it was bad enough that the NFL destroyed the evidence...and swept it under the rug.

 

I think that is a stain on the first 1/3 of his career. But what he's doing now is unprecedented and definitely puts him at the top. Though I think we can all agree that the preferential treatment NE gets is frustrating.

 

They were penalized for Spygate in 2008. They've been to five SBs since, and have won three of them. 

 

And to whatever extent Spygate is a stain, I think that stain goes more to Belichick than to Brady. 

 

And as for preferential treatment, I don't know about that. They get lucky, sure, but the league has penalized that team with fines and loss of draft picks, penalized the coach, suspended the QB (only franchise QB to be suspended in my lifetime for something that involved gameplay, unless I'm missing someone), suspended last night's MVP earlier this year... 

 

(Speaking of which, it seems like whenever a Pats player is suspended to start the season, he winds up getting SB MVP that year. 

 

Also, maybe a player suspended for PEDs shouldn't be eligible for postseason awards in that season??? But Edelman was clearly the best player last night, and it's not even close.)

 

The Pats are well coached, disciplined, well prepared, they are never a highly penalized team, they get rid of players who don't buy in (even good ones), etc. Some think it's preferential treatment and luck, but I think they're just a well run organization, and they put the players in position to perform like no other team does. The saying goes 'luck is when preparation meets opportunity,' and I think the Pats are a great example of that.

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