Does Desir Resign .. how about Geathers

[dw49]

I think these will be the toughest to predict . We have tons of cap room and are going to upgrade somewhere. I would think we would sign a good secondary FA. Do both these players want bigger contracts than Ballard might pay. 

 

The issues with both are obvious . Geathers  has had injuries and Desir could maybe be "upgraded ?" 

 

Just curious what the board thinks and wants here. We all I'm sure would want Desir back but how high do you go ?  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think they both will.  Geathers will have to pass a physical and the colts will have to be reassured his neck will be fine. Desire had a wonderful season. Provides some great veteran leadership.

[Superman]

Desir had a strong year, after being mediocre most of his career. Seems like a contract year warrior, to me. I have no problem keeping him, but I don't see giving him a big deal. He's an average starter at a non-premium position in this defense. 

 

Geathers is a big injury issue. I don't mind keeping him, either, but I would like to have a more reliable player on the roster. I think both spots should be targeted for upgrade.

 

Desir: two years, $7m

Geathers: one year, $4m

[Coffeedrinker]

For me, I'm not a Geathers fan.  I think players like him are a dime a dozen, someone who can be signed to a new contract or easily replaceable.

 

Desir has the height and reach Ballard and Flus seem to like in the CB and he is one that, in his two years with the Colts, seems to improve every game.  The bad thing about Desir is he is already 28 (he'll be 29 when the season starts) so, unfortunately, he only has about 2-3 more years left.  I like @Superman  contract numbers but draft someone this year to compete with him.

[Superman]

Just now, Coffeedrinker said:

For me, I'm not a Geathers fan.  I think players like him are a dime a dozen, someone who can be signed to a new contract or easily replaceable.

 

Geathers is probably overrated by Colts fans due to a handful of plays. It's possible that he'd have more impact plays if he were able to stay on the field for more than three weeks at a time.

[shasta519]

19 minutes ago, Superman said:

Desir had a strong year, after being mediocre most of his career. Seems like a contract year warrior, to me. I have no problem keeping him, but I don't see giving him a big deal. He's an average starter at a non-premium position in this defense. 

 

Geathers is a big injury issue. I don't mind keeping him, either, but I would like to have a more reliable player on the roster. I think both spots should be targeted for upgrade.

 

Desir: two years, $7m

Geathers: one year, $4m

 

Agree...upgrade both spots...especially S. 

 

I think Ballard probably waits it out on at least one, if not both, of those players. We are talking about a 28 year-old CB coming off one good season and a decent young SS who has had neck injuries. See what their markets look like...and go from there. No reason to jump the gun unless they are willing to take very friendly deals.

[Coffeedrinker]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Geathers is probably overrated by Colts fans due to a handful of plays. It's possible that he'd have more impact plays if he were able to stay on the field for more than three weeks at a time.

I would even go so far as to say a handful of plays from a couple of years ago.

 

I also think a lot of fans look at his size and want him to be a good safety, so they see things that aren't really there.

[shasta519]

15 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

For me, I'm not a Geathers fan.  I think players like him are a dime a dozen, someone who can be signed to a new contract or easily replaceable.

 

Desir has the height and reach Ballard and Flus seem to like in the CB and he is one that, in his two years with the Colts, seems to improve every game.  The bad thing about Desir is he is already 28 (he'll be 29 when the season starts) so, unfortunately, he only has about 2-3 more years left.  I like @Superman  contract numbers but draft someone this year to compete with him.

 

Agree about Geathers. I would love to have him back as depth and for sub packages. But I really want to upgrade the base D SS spot.

[Boiler_Colt]

Desir should be brought back just for his Hopkins covering skills alone. I like Geathers but I think you can move on. There are some upgrades at SS in FA and in the draft IMO.

[CanuckColtsFan]

I would move to keep both. I think the defense is going to add some complexity this year and players familiar with the system may have a slight edge.

nice spot here.

Geathers, although injury prone provides a solid safety option and is capable of delivering big hits. I'm not sure who we could get in FA the would fill the enforcer safety roll better than him. Honestly, if we could get him for four years on a cheaper contract I would do it. At worst he is great depth is we find another guy to play in front of him.

 

Desir, has played two decent seasons for us. I dont think he gets a big payday here or anywhere else. He should get a solid middle of the road CB contract and I think he is a great fit here. I would love if Wilson or a FA could step in and become a true No.1 CB . I don't feel comfortable if Desir is our best CB. Kenny Moore could get even better but his height makes me view him as limited as far as covering your big WRs.

 

I think both player afford us a cap friendly option. I would much rather we concentrate on upgrading pass rush and maybe get a better MLB. I want to see Leonard paired with guy that's top level.

 

 

[Four2itus]

21 minutes ago, Superman said:

Geathers is probably overrated by Colts fans due to a handful of plays. It's possible that he'd have more impact plays if he were able to stay on the field for more than three weeks at a time.

 

23 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

For me, I'm not a Geathers fan.  I think players like him are a dime a dozen, someone who can be signed to a new contract or easily replaceable.

I agree with both of you, however, Ballard has mentioned his leadership in the locker room. Isn't he a Captain as well? Just saying it adds value to the equation...

[shasta519]

Just now, Coffeedrinker said:

I would even go so far as to say a handful of plays from a couple of years ago.

 

I also think a lot of fans look at his size and want him to be a good safety, so they see things that aren't really there.

 

Yep...I think fans still remember that 4th down stop against TEN back in 2016. Much like how people remember the Ballard corkscrew TD.

[lollygagger8]

36 minutes ago, Superman said:

Desir had a strong year, after being mediocre most of his career. Seems like a contract year warrior, to me. I have no problem keeping him, but I don't see giving him a big deal. He's an average starter at a non-premium position in this defense. 

 

Geathers is a big injury issue. I don't mind keeping him, either, but I would like to have a more reliable player on the roster. I think both spots should be targeted for upgrade.

 

Desir: two years, $7m

Geathers: one year, $4m

 

I agree with most of this. 

 

I think Desir is a little better than average, and should be retained. (He helped shut down Cooper and Hopkins) 

 

Geathers health is a big concern, like you mentioned. I most definitely think the Colts should retain Farley (great depth if not starting) and look to upgrade for certain (Collins would be awesome) 

[shasta519]

25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Geathers is probably overrated by Colts fans due to a handful of plays. It's possible that he'd have more impact plays if he were able to stay on the field for more than three weeks at a time.

 

He probably would have more plays if not for the injuries. But to be fair...it's hard to have a ton of impactful plays when you aren't really a factor in the passing game...not very good in coverage and only has a handful of PDs and O INTS...and doesn't rush the passer so he has 0 sacks. 

 

And his approximate value shows this. For his career, he has an AV of 9. A big part of that is the lack of games played, obviously, but even if he hadn't missed any time last year...he was on pace for 6...in what amounts to a career season for him thus far.

 

I am happy to have Geathers back in some role...but the Colts should not be committing big dollars and/or years to him...and should be looking at upgrades.

 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I hope they resign Desir. Last year he was way underpaid for a CB, even in this scheme. I think tho it may have the same result as Melvin did last offseason. I hope not.

 

Geathers health is a liability. If he's resigned you definitely need multiple backups that can play when he can't.

[Rackeen305]

1 hour ago, dw49 said:

I think these will be the toughest to predict . We have tons of cap room and are going to upgrade somewhere. I would think we would sign a good secondary FA. Do both these players want bigger contracts than Ballard might pay. 

 

The issues with both are obvious . Geathers  has had injuries and Desir could maybe be "upgraded ?" 

 

Just curious what the board thinks and wants here. We all I'm sure would want Desir back but how high do you go ?  

Lets get Safety Landon Collins. I wanted him in the draft. Pro bowler as well with no health concerns.

[stitches]

Something that went largely unnoticed in the Ballard interview on Dakich's show - Ballard said we need to get better at man-to-man corner, especially on 3d downs.

 

This is something I've been harping on for ages - that I think Ballard wants us to ultimately play Seattle style man-to-man cover 3, rather than Tampa 2. But Tampa 2 is much easier and/or better for how young and inexperienced this team is and how quickly we had to get most of our starters ready to play. It also covers for general lack of talent in the secondary. It gave Ballard time to set the foundation of what he believes in (both fronts) while not sacrificing competitiveness.

 

I think when he thinks we've done good enough job building up the O-Line and the D-Line Ballard will NOT spare resources for a cornerback. He drafted one with his second ever pick as a GM FFS. I think if he sees value in a CB elsewhere(draft, FA) he will get it. 

 

I also think that this strategy makes him not want to get tied up long-term to corners that he doesn't think can hold up in his long vision scheme. This is the reason he let Melvin walk, this is the reason I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't pursue Desir too desperately(if he wants too much money). He doesn't want to give 10M to a corner that might not fit into a scheme that will include more and more man-to-man principles over time. 

 

At least that's my thought process... I might be completely off. 

[aaron11]

13 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

Lets get Safety Landon Collins. I wanted him in the draft. Pro bowler as well with no health concerns.

the giants are expected to sign or tag him according to "reports".  he wants to stay in new york too

[richard pallo]

It will be interesting to see how Ballard handles these two.  I remember last year he offered Farley a contract he didn't like and he decided to test FA and only wound up with a one year deal in Oakland.  I can see that happening with Desir and Gaethers.  I would like to keep Desir and I'm 50/50 on Gaethers because of his injuries.  I think we could upgrade at S in FA. 

[Superman]

45 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

 

I agree with both of you, however, Ballard has mentioned his leadership in the locker room. Isn't he a Captain as well? Just saying it adds value to the equation...

 

Ballard clearly likes him a lot. He almost got emotional when talking about him during the presser a couple weeks ago. But that doesn't mean he's going to overpay for him.

[Superman]

30 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

Lets get Safety Landon Collins. I wanted him in the draft. Pro bowler as well with no health concerns.

 

About that...

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000996335/article/injuries-landon-collins-likely-needs-shoulder-surgery

[Superman]

37 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

I hope they resign Desir. Last year he was way underpaid for a CB, even in this scheme. I think tho it may have the same result as Melvin did last offseason. I hope not.

 

 

Same age, similar situation. And I think the Melvin situation speaks to how Ballard (and staff) values the position, especially for an average-ish player who has a strong contract year.

[Superman]

26 minutes ago, stitches said:

Something that went largely unnoticed in the Ballard interview on Dakich's show - Ballard said we need to get better at man-to-man corner, especially on 3d downs.

 

This is something I've been harping on for ages - that I think Ballard wants us to ultimately play Seattle style man-to-man cover 3, rather than Tampa 2. But Tampa 2 is much easier and/or better for how young and inexperienced this team is and how quickly we had to get most of our starters ready to play. It also covers for general lack of talent in the secondary. It gave Ballard time to set the foundation of what he believes in (both fronts) while not sacrificing competitiveness.

 

I think when he thinks we've done good enough job building up the O-Line and the D-Line Ballard will NOT spare resources for a cornerback. He drafted one with his second ever pick as a GM FFS. I think if he sees value in a CB elsewhere(draft, FA) he will get it. 

 

I also think that this strategy makes him not want to get tied up long-term to corners that he doesn't think can hold up in his long vision scheme. This is the reason he let Melvin walk, this is the reason I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't pursue Desir too desperately(if he wants too much money). He doesn't want to give 10M to a corner that might not fit into a scheme that will include more and more man-to-man principles over time. 

 

At least that's my thought process... I might be completely off. 

 

Big picture, I agree. He hired a Seattle exec, they considered Kris Richard during their coaching search (maybe even as a DC, I think), and he said that he's getting a better understanding of what Eberflus wants to do in coverage. Eberflus was the passing game coordinator for the Cowboys defense, and while they ran a ton of Cover 2, they used multiple coverages. The defense became more multiple halfway through the season last year, showing they want to build on what they established in the first part of the season.

 

But I think Melvin and Desir fit the prototype of that Seattle style DB -- long, physical, good tacklers. Neither of them have great ball skills, though, and neither is particularly fast for the position. Those are probably critical to his vision; he's preached about ball skills in the secondary and speed on defense.

 

End of the day, I definitely agree that we can do better than Desir and Melvin. I don't see Ballard giving top of the market contracts to FA corners, and I don't see him valuing a corner high in the draft -- he wouldn't have taken Ward, for instance, IMO -- but it's not like he'll just patch together a weak secondary every year.

 

Separate but related, I know Quincy has had issues and Hairston kind of fell apart last year, but I like their physical profiles for this defense also.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

Desir had a strong year, after being mediocre most of his career. Seems like a contract year warrior, to me. I have no problem keeping him, but I don't see giving him a big deal. He's an average starter at a non-premium position in this defense. 

 

Geathers is a big injury issue. I don't mind keeping him, either, but I would like to have a more reliable player on the roster. I think both spots should be targeted for upgrade.

 

Desir: two years, $7m

Geathers: one year, $4m

 

Desir did have a decent previous year under Pagano, IMO, when given the chance around the middle of the 2017 season. He followed it up with a good 2018 season. I think he is definitely worth $10 mil. for 2 years. I just feel Desir is better than Melvin, his run defense is better, IMO, and he rarely had missed tackles. Here it is:

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-colts-1-75m-investment-in-pierre-desir-is-paying-off-big-time

 

As evidenced by his 90.7 run-defense grade, Desir is also an impact player where many cornerbacks fall way short of expectations. He’s missed zero tackles, recorded seven run stops and three tackles for no gain or loss across his 334 run-defense snaps this season.

 

That is the thing about getting a good CB for this system, guys like Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden were outstanding tacklers and that is where Pierre Desir scores over Melvin, IMO. It is not easy to have that kind of floor Desir has, IMO, on run and pass D.

 

Geathers, on the other hand, is expendable, IMO. 

[stitches]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Big picture, I agree. He hired a Seattle exec, they considered Kris Richard during their coaching search (maybe even as a DC, I think), and he said that he's getting a better understanding of what Eberflus wants to do in coverage. Eberflus was the passing game coordinator for the Cowboys defense, and while they ran a ton of Cover 2, they used multiple coverages. The defense became more multiple halfway through the season last year, showing they want to build on what they established in the first part of the season.

 

But I think Melvin and Desir fit the prototype of that Seattle style DB -- long, physical, good tacklers. Neither of them have great ball skills, though, and neither is particularly fast for the position. Those are probably critical to his vision; he's preached about ball skills in the secondary and speed on defense.

  

End of the day, I definitely agree that we can do better than Desir and Melvin. I don't see Ballard giving top of the market contracts to FA corners, and I don't see him valuing a corner high in the draft -- he wouldn't have taken Ward, for instance, IMO -- but it's not like he'll just patch together a weak secondary every year.

 

Separate but related, I know Quincy has had issues and Hairston kind of fell apart last year, but I like their physical profiles for this defense also.

Yep... the way I think about it....

 

1. First thing he did he hired Ed Dodds, who was one of Seattle's secondary architects

2. He drafted the ULTIMATE single high cover-3 prototype, Earl Thomas proxy safety in the 1st round of his first draft (Malik Hooker). And that was with a great player defensive lineman like Jonathan Allen available at the spot. 

3. He drafted Quincy Wilson with his second ever pick. At the time I thought he had all the halmarks of a Seattle corner - big, physical, some ball-skills... 

4. He did interview Kris Richard 

5. He keeps reiterating we need to get better at man-to-man. He said in that interview right after he finished with his first priority(pass-rusher) "you've got to be able to play (we are primarily a zone coverage team) but we gonna play man-to-man. you've got to be able to lock up and there's gonna be times on third down at points in the game when you need gotta lock up and play man to man and win."

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Desir did have a decent previous year under Pagano, IMO, when given the chance around the middle of the 2017 season. He followed it up with a good 2018 season. I think he is definitely worth $10 mil. for 2 years. I just feel Desir is better than Melvin, his run defense is better, IMO, and he rarely had missed tackles. Here it is:

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-colts-1-75m-investment-in-pierre-desir-is-paying-off-big-time

 

As evidenced by his 90.7 run-defense grade, Desir is also an impact player where many cornerbacks fall way short of expectations. He’s missed zero tackles, recorded seven run stops and three tackles for no gain or loss across his 334 run-defense snaps this season.

 

That is the thing about getting a good CB for this system, guys like Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden were outstanding tacklers and that is where Pierre Desir scores over Melvin, IMO. It is not easy to have that kind of floor Desir has, IMO, on run and pass D.

 

Geathers, on the other hand, is expendable, IMO. 

 

Yeah, I wouldn't haggle over $1.5m/year. It's like 1% of the cap for a somewhat homegrown player that fits your scheme. I'm fine with your proposed contract, but it probably wouldn't be my first offer. 

[#12.]

Ballard spoke of Geathers in sort of the same way he spoke of Simon,  if you know what I mean.  He obviously respects him.  Doesn't mean it's not the team's best interest to move in another direction.  

[cbear]

Hopefully he can do his magic and/or get the same level headed cooperation he got with Glowinski and his agent and sign a reasonable deal.  

 

I like Desir.  I think he has good coverage skills.  Rarely did I see his man beat him.  And like Moore, he likes to tackle.  Geathers plays well when down in the box but cover skills lacking and as many have said, injuries are always a concern. 

[Hoose]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

Something that went largely unnoticed in the Ballard interview on Dakich's show - Ballard said we need to get better at man-to-man corner, especially on 3d downs.

 

This is something I've been harping on for ages - that I think Ballard wants us to ultimately play Seattle style man-to-man cover 3, rather than Tampa 2. But Tampa 2 is much easier and/or better for how young and inexperienced this team is and how quickly we had to get most of our starters ready to play. It also covers for general lack of talent in the secondary. It gave Ballard time to set the foundation of what he believes in (both fronts) while not sacrificing competitiveness.

 

I think when he thinks we've done good enough job building up the O-Line and the D-Line Ballard will NOT spare resources for a cornerback. He drafted one with his second ever pick as a GM FFS. I think if he sees value in a CB elsewhere(draft, FA) he will get it. 

 

I also think that this strategy makes him not want to get tied up long-term to corners that he doesn't think can hold up in his long vision scheme. This is the reason he let Melvin walk, this is the reason I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't pursue Desir too desperately(if he wants too much money). He doesn't want to give 10M to a corner that might not fit into a scheme that will include more and more man-to-man principles over time. 

 

At least that's my thought process... I might be completely off. 

Well said.

I DO believe that the Colts will try to keep both Desir and Geathers even as they evolve the secondary schemes. Desir would be a decent signing at 2 years/$8-9 million; Geathers definitely on a prove you can stay healthy one year deal. His neck is worrisome. 

Because of all the uncertainty surrounding Geathers, it also wouldn't surprise me to see a safety picked high in the draft, perhaps even the first round if the value isn't there at DE/DT. SS has become a genuine need. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

 

We're in strange territory....    few things make this community do more crazy things than when the discussion turns to money.

 

I think Desir reminds me of Hunt.    Rounding into the player he's becoming at a later point in his career.    I think if our first offer isn't AT LEAST 2/10,  then his agent might just hang up.    

 

I think we'd like to get him 2/10-12,  but we might have to include a 3rd year and make it 3/15-18.   Something closer to Glow money.     Remember,  Bashaud signed for 3/24 before his deal was voided due to injury.     And I think Melvin is a poor comparison.    He's more of a Man corner, so switching to zone,  he had less appeal.    And I think we aliented him with our hardball approach.

 

Again,  with Glow,  this contract is one that the Locker room will watch.   Desir was our best corner.   In the last two games with Houston,  Desir held Hopkins to 9 total coaches for about 72 yards.    That's 8 yards a catch.    For DeSean Hopkins.    That WILL get noticed around the league.  Desire made himself a LOT of money in those two games.   A lot!    You've got to make a decent offer.     $5-6 Mill per year is NOT an unreasonable deal.    Espeically for our current #1 Corner.    He might not be that guy in 2-3 years,  but he is NOW.    Get him signed.

 

As for Geathers.....   you should listen to Ballard from his year end presser.   You'd think he was talking about his own son.   Ballard literally talked about how much he LOVED the guy.    Now, he made it clear he didn't want to lose him, signaling he's willing to be outbid,  but I think Ballard very much WANTS to bring CG back.     I'm guessing 2 years at something around Desir money.  $5-6 Mill per.    If Clayton can get 3 years, then I think Ballard says goodbye.

 

Saw an article in the last week to 10 days about what having a Strong Safety who can play close to the line of scrimmage is a big advantage for a defense.   You don't have to situationally substitute him out.    He can play on all downs,    And for the Colts who play mostly 4-1-6 or 4-2-5,  Geathers is like having another LB on the field.  

 

So, I don't view CG as being easily replaceable at all.   The exact opposite.    I don't know how bad or on-going his health issues are....    everyone here talks about the neck.    I'm not sure he missed a single game this year due to his neck.   I thought he had other minor issues, dents and dings.   I could be wrong,  but I don't recall his neck being an issue in 2018.     Hope we bring him back too.

 

Desir:   3/15-18.

Geathers:    2/10-12

 

[hoosierhawk]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Ballard clearly likes him a lot. He almost got emotional when talking about him during the presser a couple weeks ago. But that doesn't mean he's going to overpay for him.

I really like the guy a lot but I am concern that if he continues to play he may jeopardize his future health. Really to bad as I thought he would really be special when he was a rook.

All of that said however I do agree that we can upgrade at safety. 

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

We're in strange territory....    few things make this community do more crazy things than when the discussion turns to money.

 

I think Desir reminds me of Hunt.    Rounding into the player he's becoming at a later point in his career.    I think if our first offer isn't AT LEAST 2/10,  then his agent might just hang up.    

 

I think we'd like to get him 2/10-12,  but we might have to include a 3rd year and make it 3/15-18.   Something closer to Glow money.     Remember,  Bashaud signed for 3/24 before his deal was voided due to injury.     And I think Melvin is a poor comparison.    He's more of a Man corner, so switching to zone,  he had less appeal.    And I think we aliented him with our hardball approach.

 

Again,  with Glow,  this contract is one that the Locker room will watch.   Desir was our best corner.   In the last two games with Houston,  Desir held Hopkins to 9 total coaches for about 72 yards.    That's 8 yards a catch.    For DeSean Hopkins.    That WILL get noticed around the league.   You've got to make a decent offer.     $5-6 Mill per year is NOT an unreasonable deal.    Espeically for our current #1 Corner.    He might not be that guy in 2-3 years,  but he is NOW.    Get him signed.

 

As for Geathers.....   you should listen to Ballard from his year end presser.   You'd think he was talking about his own son.   Ballard literally talked about how much he LOVED the guy.    Now, he made it clear he didn't want to lose him, signaling he's willing to be outbid,  but I think Ballard very much WANTS to bring CG back.     I'm guessing 2 years at something around Desir money.  $5-6 Mill per.    If Clayton can get 3 years, then I think Ballard says goodbye.

 

Saw an article in the last week to 10 days about what having a Strong Safety who can play close to the line of scrimmage is a big advantage for a defense.   You don't have to situationally substitute him out.    He can play on all downs,    And for the Colts who play mostly 4-1-6 or 4-2-5,  Geathers is like having another LB on the field.  

 

So, I don't view CG as being easily replaceable at all.   The exact opposite.    I don't know how bad or on-going his health issues are....    everyone here talks about the neck.    I'm not sure he missed a single game this year due to his neck.   I thought he had other minor issues, dents and dings.   I could be wrong,  but I don't recall his neck being an issue in 2018.     Hope we bring him back too.

 

Desir:   3/15-18.

Geathers:    2/10-12

 

 

Agree 100% on the Desir front. We have to start with 2 years $10 mil., otherwise it would be a mistake and Melvin deja vu.

 

Geathers - if he is not cheap, he is very replaceable. The NFL safety market had a re-set during 2018 free agency and I wonder if it will happen again this year:

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfls-refusal-sign-eric-reid-lead-weak-safety-market-offseason-041431791.html

 

The Eric Reid factor maybe a speculation but I do think Ballard is going to tread very lightly on doling out a contract to Geathers before he re-signs other players. Mike Mitchell, who is quoted in the above article, was obtained mid-season for really not much. Just my gut feeling.  

[IinD]

I've been on this forum only for a few years and the majority of the time everyone is off on money terms usually.

 

I've read 'for that money I don't mind seeing him walk' here many times.

 

I don't care for Geathers either way, but I can definitely see some team throwing money at Desir and Ballard not going that high. Hope not, but I don't think he'll sign for chump change.

[DougDew]

I thought Desir deserved more of a contract last year based upon how he played the year before.

 

I hope we don't treat him like Darius Butler, who failed at about every metric a DB is measured, except that he seemed to make plays but was always on one year contracts.

 

I put Geathers into a shake-up bag with Farley, Mitchell, and Wilcox and keep whatever player doesn't sign a decent contract elsewhere.  That's probably none of them, so I'll wait until after the draft to see what transpires.  Personally, I like the way Wilcox played against KC and has always put up good tackling numbers with nice durability, so he's in the strong mix for a roster spot.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Desir was our best corner.   In the last two games with Houston,  Desir held Hopkins to 9 total coaches for about 72 yards.    That's 8 yards a catch.    For DeSean Hopkins.    That WILL get noticed around the league.  Desire made himself a LOT of money in those two games.   A lot!    You've got to make a decent offer.     $5-6 Mill per year is NOT an unreasonable deal.    Espeically for our current #1 Corner.    He might not be that guy in 2-3 years,  but he is NOW.    Get him signed.

 

Desir was our best corner, but that's because we don't have good corners. Desir is an average DB, not a cornerstone of a good secondary. He's certainly not a #1 corner for a good defense.

 

As for his performance in two games against Houston, good showings for him. But he played 18 games. For the season, he was targeted 87 times, and gave up 50 catches, 7.1 yards/target, a 94 passer rating, and 5 TDs, with 8 breakups and 1 INT. These numbers are the epitome of average, but right in line with what he's done his entire five year career. This is on a defense that allowed a 70% completion rate against, and that especially got abused by good QBs.

 

He's 28, he's been in the league five years, and now he has easily the best year of his career. And still, it's just average. So I'd rather let some other teams get enamored with two good games, and I'll point out that in the other 47 games and 23 starts of his career, he was very regular.

 

Another corner that went in the 4th round of the 2014 draft is Ross Cockrell, with a similar profile to Desir's. Also like Desir, Cockrell played on three different teams before hitting free agency, then had a nice contract year. At 26/27, the winning bid for Cockrell was two years, $6.6m. 

 

Nevin Lawson, another 4th round corner in 2014, had a strong 2017 season, and re-signed with the Lions for two years, $9.2m. 

 

Two years, $10m is probably my limit for Desir. And that's not me being "crazy," it's based on what I think of his performance and what the market has borne for players in his range. I don't mind a third year because it's going to be non-guaranteed.

 

Quote

As for Geathers.....   you should listen to Ballard from his year end presser.   You'd think he was talking about his own son.   Ballard literally talked about how much he LOVED the guy.    Now, he made it clear he didn't want to lose him, signaling he's willing to be outbid,  but I think Ballard very much WANTS to bring CG back.     I'm guessing 2 years at something around Desir money.  $5-6 Mill per.    If Clayton can get 3 years, then I think Ballard says goodbye.

 

I picked up on that also. But someone else mentioned that Ballard spoke similarly about Simon, then cut him. Simon was a casualty of a scheme change, mostly. Geathers fits the defense, but his injury history is critical; two years ago, he had a career threatening neck injury, and he was knocked out of a game in Week 5 this year with a neck/head injury, and didn't play again until Week 8. Then he missed the last two games of the season with a knee injury.

 

The safety market has also been soft lately, and there are some high profile safeties potentially hitting free agency this offseason. 

 

Either way, I wouldn't make a multi-year commitment to Geathers. 

[Hoo-Hoo-Hoo-Hoosiers]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

Separate but related, I know Quincy has had issues and Hairston kind of fell apart last year, but I like their physical profiles for this defense also

Agree on here on Quincy and Hairston, I might be stating the obvious but I dont feel that either yet reached their respective ceilings.

[DougDew]

I think Ballard's comments towards Geathers reflects his opinion of Geathers as a person and everything he's gone through to be an NFL player.  As with Simon, I'm not sure I would equate that with a business decision of wanting to retain him. (price of course)

[Scott Pennock]

8 hours ago, dw49 said:

I think these will be the toughest to predict . We have tons of cap room and are going to upgrade somewhere. I would think we would sign a good secondary FA. Do both these players want bigger contracts than Ballard might pay. 

 

The issues with both are obvious . Geathers  has had injuries and Desir could maybe be "upgraded ?" 

 

Just curious what the board thinks and wants here. We all I'm sure would want Desir back but how high do you go ?  

If they take reasonable offers I firmly believe they will both be back, especially for continuity purposes.

 

If they draft or sign a FA that outplays them, then imagine the depth we've managed to secure!?

 

For that reason as well, I believe Hunt will be re-signed.

 

That leaves ONE spot needing a sure fire starter that is currently not on the roster - WR.

[throwing BBZ]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

We're in strange territory....    few things make this community do more crazy things than when the discussion turns to money.

 

I think Desir reminds me of Hunt.    Rounding into the player he's becoming at a later point in his career.    I think if our first offer isn't AT LEAST 2/10,  then his agent might just hang up.    

 

I think we'd like to get him 2/10-12,  but we might have to include a 3rd year and make it 3/15-18.   Something closer to Glow money.     Remember,  Bashaud signed for 3/24 before his deal was voided due to injury.     And I think Melvin is a poor comparison.    He's more of a Man corner, so switching to zone,  he had less appeal.    And I think we aliented him with our hardball approach.

 

Again,  with Glow,  this contract is one that the Locker room will watch.   Desir was our best corner.   In the last two games with Houston,  Desir held Hopkins to 9 total coaches for about 72 yards.    That's 8 yards a catch.    For DeSean Hopkins.    That WILL get noticed around the league.  Desire made himself a LOT of money in those two games.   A lot!    You've got to make a decent offer.     $5-6 Mill per year is NOT an unreasonable deal.    Espeically for our current #1 Corner.    He might not be that guy in 2-3 years,  but he is NOW.    Get him signed.

 

As for Geathers.....   you should listen to Ballard from his year end presser.   You'd think he was talking about his own son.   Ballard literally talked about how much he LOVED the guy.    Now, he made it clear he didn't want to lose him, signaling he's willing to be outbid,  but I think Ballard very much WANTS to bring CG back.     I'm guessing 2 years at something around Desir money.  $5-6 Mill per.    If Clayton can get 3 years, then I think Ballard says goodbye.

 

Saw an article in the last week to 10 days about what having a Strong Safety who can play close to the line of scrimmage is a big advantage for a defense.   You don't have to situationally substitute him out.    He can play on all downs,    And for the Colts who play mostly 4-1-6 or 4-2-5,  Geathers is like having another LB on the field.  

 

So, I don't view CG as being easily replaceable at all.   The exact opposite.    I don't know how bad or on-going his health issues are....    everyone here talks about the neck.    I'm not sure he missed a single game this year due to his neck.   I thought he had other minor issues, dents and dings.   I could be wrong,  but I don't recall his neck being an issue in 2018.     Hope we bring him back too.

 

Desir:   3/15-18.

Geathers:    2/10-12

 

 

 Holy cow. Finally someone i can agree with.
  Desir has proven himself to be a quality player in this D.
 I think you give him a 3 year deal. The 3rd has no guaranteed $. The second might if certain incentives are met. 
 3yrs $24M  $5.6M signing bonus 
 

 Geathers. Yes there will be incentives based on games played.
 3yrs $17M $5.1M signing bonus. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Desir was our best corner, but that's because we don't have good corners. Desir is an average DB, not a cornerstone of a good secondary. He's certainly not a #1 corner for a good defense.

 

As for his performance in two games against Houston, good showings for him. But he played 18 games. For the season, he was targeted 87 times, and gave up 50 catches, 7.1 yards/target, a 94 passer rating, and 5 TDs, with 8 breakups and 1 INT. These numbers are the epitome of average, but right in line with what he's done his entire five year career. This is on a defense that allowed a 70% completion rate against, and that especially got abused by good QBs.

 

He's 28, he's been in the league five years, and now he has easily the best year of his career. And still, it's just average. So I'd rather let some other teams get enamored with two good games, and I'll point out that in the other 47 games and 23 starts of his career, he was very regular.

 

Another corner that went in the 4th round of the 2014 draft is Ross Cockrell, with a similar profile to Desir's. Also like Desir, Cockrell played on three different teams before hitting free agency, then had a nice contract year. At 26/27, the winning bid for Cockrell was two years, $6.6m. 

 

Nevin Lawson, another 4th round corner in 2014, had a strong 2017 season, and re-signed with the Lions for two years, $9.2m. 

 

Two years, $10m is probably my limit for Desir. And that's not me being "crazy," it's based on what I think of his performance and what the market has borne for players in his range. I don't mind a third year because it's going to be non-guaranteed.

 

 

I picked up on that also. But someone else mentioned that Ballard spoke similarly about Simon, then cut him. Simon was a casualty of a scheme change, mostly. Geathers fits the defense, but his injury history is critical; two years ago, he had a career threatening neck injury, and he was knocked out of a game in Week 5 this year with a neck/head injury, and didn't play again until Week 8. Then he missed the last two games of the season with a knee injury.

 

The safety market has also been soft lately, and there are some high profile safeties potentially hitting free agency this offseason. 

 

Either way, I wouldn't make a multi-year commitment to Geathers. 

 

Good post.     And I hope you know my use of the word "crazy" was NOT intended toward you.   But the talk of money has always brought out the most bizarre dollar figures....    way too low,  way too high...    too many years...    not enough years....    you name.     You and I are often trying to address those in various threads throughout the years.

 

As for Desir....    I'm not against signing him for less.    I just don't want to run the risk of losing him the way we did with Melvin.    The other two players...    here's what I don't know...   I don't know what the market was like...   other good FA Corners available?    other draft prospects?    So if we somehow lose Desir to another team,   then what?     Who replaces him?    And let's not kid ourselves,  what are our options?     Wilson?     Maybe.     You can't expect a rookie likely taken in the 3rd round or later to step in as a quality starter.   Not sure there's a FA corner that we could sign to fill that spot.    Desir may be the definition of "average"...   but right now, he's the best we got,  he plays our toughest opponent exceptionally well,  so it feels to me that he might have more leverage than one might imagine.

 

As for Geathers...   you and others make fair points about the market softening for safeties.   What we don't know is if that's going to be a 1-year aberation or will that hold?     And we don't know the medicals on Geathers.    Maybe the team will only be comfortable on a 1-year deal.   Maybe my $$ for him are too high?     Maybe.   But I noted I think Ballard is willing to lose CG if he's outbid...   but I think Ballard would like to bring him back if he can.    But at his price.

 

Good discussion.