Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Lucky Colts Fan

GOAT Breeds

Recommended Posts

No, this isn't about Pygmy, Fainting, Alpine, or Nigerian Dwarf goats.

 

I came up with the idea for this silly thread because the age-old Brady vs. Manning debate has resurfaced since the Pats made the SB again.  This debate can go round and round forever, and an argument can be made for any of the all-time great QBs.  So I thought I might try to frame the argument instead of trying to qualify my personal opinion on who is the GOAT (it's Manning).

 

So here are my different "breeds" of GOAT:

 

Men of Dynasty:  These guys were winners.

 

- Tom Brady

- Troy Aikman

- Joe Montana

- Terry Bradshaw

- Bart Starr

- Otto Graham

 

Stat-Men:  These guys put up unreal numbers

 

- Tom Brady

- Drew Brees

- Peyton Manning

- Brett Favre

- Dan Marino

 

Revolutionaries:  These guys changed the game.

 

- Sammy Baugh

- Johnny Unitas

- Jim Kelly

- Peyton Manning

 

Unfair Talent:  These guys had Godly arms and/or legs.

 

- Aaron Rodgers

- Michael Vick

- Dan Marino

- John Elway
- Randall Cunningham

 

Honorable Mentions:  These guys don't really fit into any category.

 

- Steve Young

- Roger Staubach

 

A few of these guys are on more than one list (Brady, Manning, Marino).  Depending on your fandom, or how you decide to define GOAT, you can literally pick any one of these QBs and make a case for them being the best of all time.  And there are QBs currently playing that could crack these lists in the future, like Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, and Patrick Mahomes.

 

Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I'm interested to hear your opinion.  :thmup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bert Jones and Josh Allen should be on Unfair Talent category.

 

Brady should be Disqualified from all list because he's a proven Cheater.

Just ask that 10 year old boy that won a Science Project proving that Tom Brady is a cheater.haha

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A typical list when you factor in Stats, League MVP's, Overall wins, Clutch factor, Talent, and SB/NFL Championship wins would look like this:

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Peyton

4. Unitas

5. Graham

6. Elway

-The thing about Sammy Baugh is, he was an all-around great Football player, great QB too but he is considered great because he could play defense and punt, etc..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

A typical list when you factor in Stats, League MVP's, Overall wins, Clutch factor, Talent, and SB/NFL Championship wins would look like this:

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Peyton

4. Unitas

5. Graham

6. Elway

-The thing about Sammy Baugh is, he was an all-around great Football player, great QB too but he is considered great because he could play defense and punt, etc..

One thing you might have not thought about is Sammy Baugh played with a football before it was streamlined.

Also how can Starr be left off any list? He won 5 championships, 4 time pro bowl, 5 time passing leader, 2 super bowl MVPs and a league MVP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

One thing you might have not thought about is Sammy Baugh played with a football before it was streamlined.

Also how can Starr be left off any list? He won 5 championships, 4 time pro bowl, 5 time passing leader, 2 super bowl MVPs and a league MVP.

Starr was great too but his Stats are not eye popping. I get the game was different back then but look at his Stats and look at Unitas's Stats, same era and Unitas smokes him statistically. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

One thing you might have not thought about is Sammy Baugh played with a football before it was streamlined.

Also how can Starr be left off any list? He won 5 championships, 4 time pro bowl, 5 time passing leader, 2 super bowl MVPs and a league MVP.

Starr was great too but his Stats are not eye popping, I get the game was different back then but look at his Stats and look at Unitas's Stats, same era and Unitas smokes him statistically. To me Bart Starr = Aikman and Bradshaw, Stats are average but they were on stack teams so they won a lot of Championships. The guys on my list had great Stats to go along with Championships. Graham has to be Top 5 because he won 7 Championships overall and he even had more career TD's than Starr did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Starr was great too but his Stats are not eye popping, I get the game was different back then but look at his Stats and look at Unitas's Stats, same era and Unitas smokes him statistically. To me Bart Starr = Aikman and Bradshaw, Stats are average but they were on stack teams so they won a lot of Championships. The guys on my list had great Stats to go along with Championships. Graham has to be Top 5 because he won 7 Championships overall and he even had more career TD's than Starr did.

I agree but only to a certain point. All of these QBs were on stacked teams.

That falls into my thing about the GOAT.  Football is a complete team game. There is a pretty good list of QBs who have won a super bowl that were not great.

There is also a pretty good list of great QBs who never won a super bowl.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not old enough to have seen Fran Tarkenton play? Where would he fit? Did he change the game? He is one of the first and best scramblers. Some called him Scrambling Fran. For those who saw him play, is he among the best in any category?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I agree but only to a certain point. All of these QBs were on stacked teams.

That falls into my thing about the GOAT.  Football is a complete team game. There is a pretty good list of QBs who have won a super bowl that were not great.

There is also a pretty good list of great QBs who never won a super bowl.

I know because of Fran, Fouts, Kelly, and Marino we have guys like that, that have won 0 SB wins but were worthy of greatness status. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NFLfan said:

I'm not old enough to have seen Fran Tarkenton play? Where would he fit? Did he change the game? He is one of the first and best scramblers. Some called him Scrambling Fran. For those who saw him play, is he among the best in any category?

I remember him playing. He was a fantastic QB and played in an era where running QBs were scarce.

9 time pro bowl player, MVP in 1975,

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

I'm not old enough to have seen Fran Tarkenton play? Where would he fit? Did he change the game? He is one of the first and best scramblers. Some called him Scrambling Fran. For those who saw him play, is he among the best in any category?

Fran is easily Top 20 ever, not Top 10 IMO but it is tough for me judge anyone prior to the late 70's because I did not grow up in the 50's, 60's, or early 70's. I have just seen some of these guys on film and go by their accomplishments. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

I remember him playing. He was a fantastic QB and played in an era where running QBs were scarce.

9 time pro bowl player, MVP in 1975,

 

So, does he fit any of Lucky Colt Fan's categories?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

So, does he fit any of Lucky Colt Fan's categories?

I would say Stat men category because he held the record for Yards and TD's before Marino broke them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would Stat men category because he held the record for Yards and TD's before Marino broke them.

 

I think he is still among the top 10 in TDs. If that is so, that is impressive. He played nearly 50 years ago when football was not so QB-centric as it is now.  That's great. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NFLfan said:

 

So, does he fit any of Lucky Colt Fan's categories?

Probably not. He is big on super bowls.

IMO they have zero to do with the greatness of QBs.

It was a long time general consensus that Jim Brown was the GOAT and he was a RB.

Jerry Rice also fell into that consensus too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Probably not. He is big on super bowls.

IMO they have zero to do with the greatness of QBs.

It was a long time general consensus that Jim Brown was the GOAT and he was a RB.

Jerry Rice also fell into that consensus too.

IMO no way can a WR be regarded as the overall best Football player of all-time, I can by a RB but not a WR. Rice is the best WR of all-time IMO but overall player = a FAT NO. If I replaced Rice with Marv Harrison or Randy Moss I wouldn't lose hardly anything. Regarding Brown, I could replace him with Walter Payton or Emmitt Smith and be fine too actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO no way can a WR be regarded as the overall best Football player of all-time, I can by a RB but not a WR. Rice is the best WR of all-time IMO but overall player = a FAT NO. If I replaced Rice with Marv Harrison or Randy Moss I wouldn't lose hardly anything. Regarding Brown, I could replace him with Walter Payton or Emmitt Smith and be fine too actually.

My point is no matter who anyone thinks is the GOAT it falls on the team, not the individual player. 

Therefore IMO there is no GOAT. It's all opinions. Too many factors play into it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

My point is no matter who anyone thinks is the GOAT it falls on the team, not the individual player. 

Therefore IMO there is no GOAT. It's all opinions. Too many factors play into it.

Yeah I have always got your point and I do not really disagree with you. GOAT is pretty much opinion. My Pops thinks Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest athlete of all-time and greatest basketball player of all-time. No changing his mind either as I have tried because I do not think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would say Stat men category because he held the record for Yards and TD's before Marino broke them.

 

You may be right with Stat man category.  Check out those stats for someone who played from 1961 to 1978 (when offenses often went through the RBs):

 

Quote:

In his 18 NFL seasons, Tarkenton completed 3,686 of 6,467 passes for 47,003 yards and 342 touchdowns, with 266 interceptions, all of which were NFL records at the time of his retirement. Tarkenton's 47,003 career passing yards rank him 8th all time, while his 342 career passing touchdowns is 6th all time in NFL history.[9] He also is 6th on the all-time list of wins by a starting quarterback with 124 regular season victories. He also used his impressive scrambling ability to rack up 3,674 rushing yards and 32 touchdowns on 675 carries. During his career, Tarkenton ran for a touchdown in 15 different seasons, an NFL record among quarterbacks. He ranks fifth in career rushing yards among quarterbacks, behind Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, Michael Vick and Cam Newton. He is also one of four NFL quarterbacks ever to rush for at least 300 yards in seven different seasons; the others are Cam Newton, Michael Vick and Tobin Rote. When he retired, Tarkenton held NFL career records in pass attempts, completions, yardage, and touchdowns; rushing yards by a quarterback; and wins by a starting quarterback.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran_Tarkenton

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Check out those stats for someone who played from 1961 to 1978 (when offense often went through the RBs):

 

Quote:

In his 18 NFL seasons, Tarkenton completed 3,686 of 6,467 passes for 47,003 yards and 342 touchdowns, with 266 interceptions, all of which were NFL records at the time of his retirement. Tarkenton's 47,003 career passing yards rank him 8th all time, while his 342 career passing touchdowns is 6th all time in NFL history.[9] He also is 6th on the all-time list of wins by a starting quarterback with 124 regular season victories. He also used his impressive scrambling ability to rack up 3,674 rushing yards and 32 touchdowns on 675 carries. During his career, Tarkenton ran for a touchdown in 15 different seasons, an NFL record among quarterbacks. He ranks fifth in career rushing yards among quarterbacks, behind Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, Michael Vick and Cam Newton. He is also one of four NFL quarterbacks ever to rush for at least 300 yards in seven different seasons; the others are Cam Newton, Michael Vick and Tobin Rote. When he retired, Tarkenton held NFL career records in pass attempts, completions, yardage, and touchdowns; rushing yards by a quarterback; and wins by a starting quarterback.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran_Tarkenton

Yeah he won a lot too as you stated. Tarkenton was really great, only void he has was the same void Marino has, no SB wins. Having said that, Tark and Marino along with Jim Kelly were all fantastic and I would love to have them to start a franchise.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Stat-Men:  These guys put up unreal numbers

 

- Tom Brady

- Drew Brees

- Peyton Manning

- Brett Favre

- Dan Marino

 

Revolutionaries:  These guys changed the game.

 

- Sammy Baugh

- Johnny Unitas

- Jim Kelly

- Peyton Manning

 

As we have noted above, Tarkenton should be listed among the GOAT of the Stat-Men. For his time, he was THE Stat Man.

 

How did Jim Kelly revolutionize the game? Serious question.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

As we have noted above, Tarkenton should be listed among the GOAT of the Stat-Men. For his time, he was THE Stat Man.

 

How did Jim Kelly revolutionize the game? Serious question.

Regarding Jim Kelly, 4 straight SB's 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

As we have noted above, Tarkenton needs to be listed among the GOAT of the Stat-Men. For his time, he was THE Stat Man.

 

How did Jim Kelly revolutionize the game? Serious question.

 

Yeah, I probably have the "Stat Men" more weighted toward modern QBs just because of the inflated passing stats since the game has changed.

 

Some of the old-school QBs put up amazing stats for their era, and could be added to my lists.

 

I put Jim Kelly in Revolutionaries due to the K-Gun offense he ran in Buffalo where he really revolutionized the NFL with hurry-up offense.  It was so effective that Bill Belichick came up with a defensive gameplan for the 1991 SB where he just played the pass and forced the Bills to use Thurman Thomas to get yards.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

As we have noted above, Tarkenton should be listed among the GOAT of the Stat-Men. For his time, he was THE Stat Man.

 

How did Jim Kelly revolutionize the game? Serious question.

He was maybe the toughest QB I can recall.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Yeah, I probably have the "Stat Men" more weighted toward modern QBs just because of the inflated passing stats since the game has changed.

 

Some of the old-school QBs put up amazing stats for their era, and could be added to my lists.

 

I put Jim Kelly in Revolutionaries due to the K-Gun offense he ran in Buffalo where he really revolutionized the NFL with hurry-up offense.  It was so effective that Bill Belichick came up with a defensive gameplan for the 1991 SB where he played the pass and forced the Bills to use Thurman Thomas to get yards.

Yeah I did not think of that but great point. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

He was maybe the toughest QB I can recall.

 

Which one? Kelly or Tarkenton? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Which one? Kelly or Tarkenton? 

Kelly.

Fran was illusive enough not to have taken the beatings most QBs took during that era.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you guys put Rodgers or Brees in your top 10 ever.

Hard for me to put Rogers in the top 10 because of all the great there. Brees, no problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Hard for me to put Rogers in the top 10 because of all the great there. Brees, no problem.

Why Brees over Rodgers? Just asking, I like both but Top 10 is pushing it for both IMO. Rodgers and Brees both have 1 SB win but Rodgers has 2 MVP's, Brees none. Steve Young is arguably better than both even by the eye test IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Why Brees over Rodgers? Just asking, I like both but Top 10 is pushing it for both IMO. Rodgers and Brees both have 1 SB win but Rodgers has 2 MVP's, Brees none. Steve Young is arguably better than both even by the eye test IMO.

Who would I drop out in my top 10?  I cant use stats and stats alone because of the different eras.

To me it would be a disservice to all the great QBs I have watched over the last 50 plus years and plus those who played before my time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Who would I drop out in my top 10?  I cant use stats and stats alone because of the different eras.

To me it would be a disservice to all the great QBs I have watched over the last 50 plus years and plus those who played before my time.

The thing with stats is it don't tell the story of how great a player is and was.

Example: Bert Jones. He is never mentioned by anyone who never seen him play.  Those that remember seen one of the best QBs in history.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Who would I drop out in my top 10?  I cant use stats and stats alone because of the different eras.

To me it would be a disservice to all the great QBs I have watched over the last 50 plus years and plus those who played before my time.

Who is your Top 10? Whatever you say I will respect it, it is your opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. It is all in fun anyway. I just like to hear others thoughts on this type of stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The thing with stats is it don't tell the story of how great a player is and was.

Example: Bert Jones. He is never mentioned by anyone who never seen him play.  Those that remember seen one of the best QBs in history.

He is in the Bo Jackson category. Great/unreal for a few years than injury.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Who is your Top 10? Whatever you say I will respect it, it is your opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. It is all in fun anyway. I just like to hear others thoughts on this type of stuff.

I would have to think on that for a bit. If I broke it down to 10 QBs I would just keep changing them. :default_20smile: There is so many deserving.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I would have to think on that for a bit. If I broke it down to 10 QBs I would just keep changing them. :default_20smile: There is so many deserving.

Yeah it is very tough I agree. Imagine if you actually had to give a Top 10 no matter what haha. Between just Brady, Montana, and Peyton I flip alot lmao . It is just impossible :facepalm: :funny:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at this list of QB's that went to at least 1 AFC/NFC Title Game or a SB but has never won a SB:

=Fran, Fouts, Marino, Kelly, Cunningham, McNabb, Rivers, Newton, Ryan, and now Luck with Mahomes. All of these QB's are great in reality right?

 

-Here are QB's that were in the right place at the right time that had great defenses that carried them that won 1 SB:

 

=Jim Plunkett - won 2 :cheers:, like the next 5, he had a great defense.

Jeff Hostetler (1990)

Trent Dilfer (2000)

Brad Johnson  (2002)

Joe Flacco (2012)

Russell Wilson (2013)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, coltsva said:

Fran also went to 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. Pretty darn good.

 

I'd probably put Fran in the Honorable Mention category.

 

There are a few QBs who I left out that could join him.

 

Ken Stabler, Warren Moon, and Kurt Warner come to mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Thread of the Week

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • They have a replacement in Okafor for Davis. Both him and Randle played well down the stretch while Davis was out. Randle is a guy I would potentially look at as well. With NO obviously going after Zion, Randle has already turned down his player option and is a FA. If Thad turns is no longer and option, I think Randle would be a good fill in at PF for the Pacers. 24 years old and averaged 21 and 9 playing off the bench half of the year last year.    It would be nice to unload McDermitt's contract and put that extra 7.5M/yr elsewhere.    As I said earlier in the thread, we have quite a few holes to fill on a capped budget and I wouldn't be surprised if some of these guys (Thad, Bogy, CJ) decline offers from the Pacers and move on. 
    • I think you will see another WR drafted....or a TE. Funchess will likely be gone...Hilton is a year older. Even if Cain and Campbell are both what they hoped for...there is still room to develop another Day Two pick at the position. We will see though.
    • Agree. It's just the logic that gets me. It's wishful thinking (or homerism) to think that Foles doesn't impvoe a Blake Bortles-led offense.   And had Luck not come back healthy...I would bet there is a pretty decent chance that Foles is a Colt. But I am grateful that he did.
    • Interesting. The Colts are #1...but the LAR are #2. Two distinct roster building styles.   I think SF gets a bit slighted here. They have a great HC and a young QB who was lighting it up before getting hurt. He should be able to return just fine...and they have a ton of young talent and cap space.   Honestly, NO has a lot of young talent..but an older QB.   "Set up for the future" doesn't really mean as much in the NFL as it does other sports...unless you are Patriots (and the future doesn't really seem to matter). But it's a better place to be than not.
    • i don't get the Foles hate..... I think Brissett is a decent QB and deserves a chance, but I'm not afraid of letting him go.
  • Members

    • C0LT5

      C0LT5 100

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • DerekDiggler

      DerekDiggler 140

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • BPindy

      BPindy 375

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • compuls1v3

      compuls1v3 187

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • wig

      wig 881

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • our_dbs_rock

      our_dbs_rock 819

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • dodsworth

      dodsworth 927

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • Bluefire4

      Bluefire4 2,134

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • NewColtsFan

      NewColtsFan 18,996

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • HOF19

      HOF19 390

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
×
×
  • Create New...