Senior Bowl Week: General discussion thread, measurements, workouts, practices, the game

[stitches 5,235]

So here's a thread to discuss stuff around the Senior Bowl week. The measurements are already out and can be found here:

 

http://www.optimumscouting.com/news/2019-senior-bowl-weigh-in-results

 

Some notables:

 

Montez Sweat measured with great length at 6'6" 252 and 35 and 5/8ths inches arms

Zach Allen - 6043/280, with 34 and 4/8ths arm length

Nasir Adderley - a touch under 6'0" 195

Kris Boyd 5114/195... he looked taller on tape to me

[stitches 5,235]

Some notables:

North team

 

Zach Allen - 6043/280, with 34 and 4/8ths arm length

Nasir Adderley - a touch under 6'0" 195

Kris Boyd 5114/195... he looked taller on tape to me

Michael Deiter - not long enough arms to be OT it seems - 32.5 inch arms

Andy Isabela measured under 5'9" - 5087, 186lbs... he's not slight in built but is somewhat short

Chris Lindstrom measured well and has pretty long arms(over 34"). I wonder if some team wouldn't be tempted to try him at OT

Iman Marshall measured well - 6010/203... he looks like a well put CB on the field too. 

Anthony Nelson measure well at 6060/270 with great arm length of over 34"

Charles Omenihu !!! Damn, he's long!!!! 6055, 274lbs with 36.5" long arms!!!! 

Amani Oruwariye - good measurment like Iman Marshall... 

Dalton Risner is a big winner of those measurements. Arms at 34 1/4". He's plenty long enough to play tackle. 

Sutton Smith is small. 6003, 234lbs with short arms... Too bad. Might need to be off-ball linebacker convert. 

Renell Wren 6044, 315lbs, solidly put DT. I can't wait to see how he tests at the combine. Very intriguing. 

 

 

 

 South team:

Tyre Brady - 6022, 205lbs... long arms(33 3/4 ") and huge hands(10")

Andre Dillard checks the arm-length box to be an OT too. 

Jaylon Ferguson looks like a well put pass-rusher - 6043, 256lbs, long arms 34 1/4"... he is checking the measurements box in addition to production box so far. Will be interesting to see how he tests at the combine. Might be a riser. 

Anthony Johnson is not as tall as I expected - 6021, 211 lbs

Jaquan Johnson is small. 5103, 186lbs

Bobby Okereke has long arms(over 34") and big hands(over 10")... last year Darius Leonard had similar physical profile.

Hunter Renfrow is smaller than I expected 5103, 175lbs

Deebo Samuel measured exactly the way he looks - like a RB - 5114, 216lbs... has big hands though. He's a good catcher of the football. 

David Sills - 6030, 210lbs... solid measurement

Montez Sweat measured with great length at 6'6" 252 and 35 and 5/8ths inches arms

Oli Udoh - this is the ealry draft season favorite for most rapid rise. He turned heads at the Shrine game to the point where he was invited to the Senior Bowl... Now he measured like an absolute unit of a human being - 6056, 327lbs... and... 36"(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) arm length

Oshane Ximines - OK measurement. 6034, 241lbs, 33 3/8" arm length. 

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Hunter Renfrow has the smallest hands I've ever seen on a prospect(7 3/4 ")... and he never drops a pass!!! 

[twfish 1,501]

I had no idea Sweat was that large. Changes my opinion of him a bit.

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@Superman Here's a receiver you might like. He's very good YAC receiver. 

[Matthew Gilbert 307]

@stitches Thanks for doing this! I love this part of the season. 

[Superman 33,988]

14 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

@Superman Here's a receiver you might like. He's very good YAC receiver. 

 

Yeah, he's on my list.

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I love Dalton Risner's presence and demeanor when getting interviewed:

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan 422]

They just showed highlights of Montez Sweat on NFL Network at the Senior Bowl, and that dude has me impressed, especially with those measurables. They said he needs to add weight (relatively easy fix) and work on stopping the run, but he's a beast rushing the passer and has some sick moves shedding blockers. Also, Jaylon Ferguson is an interesting one that may slide down to us. We need an athletic freak like one of those 2 with our 1st rounder, imo. 

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Deebo Samuel and David Sills looking great in one on ones. 

 

Rock Ya-Sin was doing well against everybody until he got matched against Samuel who beat him twice in a row - once downfield and once on an in-route. 

 

 

 

[stitches 5,235]

Sweat is destroying people. If he keeps it up like this in the draft process he won't be there for us to pick him at 26. 

 

 

[Superman 33,988]

33 minutes ago, stitches said:

Deebo Samuel and David Sills looking great in one on ones. 

 

Rock Ya-Sin was doing well against everybody until he got matched against Samuel who beat him twice in a row - once downfield and once on an in-route. 

 

 

 

 

One guy I remember putting on a show like that at the Senior Bowl was Tyler Lockett. Another one was Braxton Miller, so buyer beware, but Miller was converting to receiver so it's a different story.

[DougDew 3,075]

Yep.  Me likes the Deebo.  Somewhere around late second would be perfect. 

 

Sweat or maybe Allen in the first with Willis at 34 (if he measures up with at least some length and isn't oompah loompah stumpy).

 

I'm looking for BPAs in the Corner and OT positions for the middle rounds.

[Matthew Gilbert 307]

6 hours ago, stitches said:

Sweat is destroying people. If he keeps it up like this in the draft process he won't be there for us to pick him at 26.

Long gone if he keeps that up.

[BlueShoe 3,884]

Write this name down folks!

 

Andy Isabella (5'10" 195) might be another Tyreek Hill in the making. Says he will run in the 4.2's at the combine. 

 

This kids speed, footwork, and lateral movement skills are going to move him up some draft boards. He is certainly moving up on my board. 

 

 

[ar7 341]

FWIW - players who have met with the Colts

 

 

[Superman 33,988]

Deebo Samuel is basically Denard Robinson, right? Offensive weapon, not a particularly skilled receiver, more of a glorified RB. He can catch, but he doesn't run any routes, and there are few contested catches. He's more likely to try to run through a tackle than make a defender miss. 

 

He's not the droid I'm looking for.

[stitches 5,235]

35 minutes ago, Superman said:

Deebo Samuel is basically Denard Robinson, right? Offensive weapon, not a particularly skilled receiver, more of a glorified RB. He can catch, but he doesn't run any routes, and there are few contested catches. He's more likely to try to run through a tackle than make a defender miss. 

 

He's not the droid I'm looking for.

I think you are underselling his route running a bit lot. He does run the full route tree. He can be a bit better beating press-man at the LOS and he seems a bit short so he probably won't be winning contested catches consistently.  He does look like a RB indeed. I am not worried about his ability to get YAC, he has explosiveness after the catch that is rare IMO... he doesn't exactly juke defenders but he does get away from them due to his acceleration and good angles he takes to get away from them. 

 

Do you like Paris Campbell more? Is he more the type you want? Because he runs more limited route tree... but he does make people miss. 

[Defjamz26 3,925]

Weigh-ins were very critical for me:

 

-Rock Ya-Sin’s height was greatly exaggerated. 5’11” But was listed at 6’2”

 

-Isaiah Bugs is going to fall. 6’2” isn’t cutting it

 

-Jalen Hurd never had any business playing RB. 6’4” is bigger than Derrick Henry. I can see why the people who brought him to Tennessee are no longer employed.

 

-At 275, Omenihu is an Edge player. 

 

-Renell Wren is by far the defensive player who could rise the highest during this process. He’s a walking freak.

 

-Marquise Blair needs to get in the weight room ASAP.

And what happened to Gerald Willis III?

[MikeCurtis 1,166]

4 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

-Renell Wren is by far the defensive player who could rise the highest during this process. He’s a walking freak.

 

Wren was great in one on ones

 

 

[bhougland 16]

For anyone wanting to watch the workouts (with commentary from Voch Lombardi) here are some links:

 

OL vs DL (North):  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftK4bvUegV8

OL vs DL (South): 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQClEdOBurE&t=104s

WR vs DB: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV9GPD2668w

 

I have only watched a little, but my impressions so far:

Oline

- Wisconsin olineman Michael Deiter and Beau Benzschawel are having a very rough day...like really bad.

- Boston College guard Chris Lindstrom is putting on a technical clinic.

- Kansas State Olineman Dalton Risner had an up and down day.  Got beat by Zach Allen on one rep.

 

Dline

- Josh Sweat (Mississippi State) had a really good day.  He uses his arm length to his advantage, but it does look like is his only real move at this point.  I don't know if he will reach us anymore.

- Zach Allen (Boston College) didn't have a bad day, but also wasn't dominate.  He didn't show overwhelming power and didn't do anything to dispel questions about his athleticism.

- sparkplug Nose tackles Khalen Saunders (Western Illinois) and Daylon Mack (Texas A&M) definately earned some money, as they both looked extremely powerful and won some solid reps.  Note: Khalen Saunders is getting the business by the MSM that he didn't leave for the birth of his child.  I have 3 children of my own an know how special watching the birth is, but give the kid a break.  This is kid from a small school trying to prove that he can handle NFL type talent and this is his shot.  Btw, if you haven't seen this yet, this is him doing a backflip at 320lbs:  https://sportsnaut.com/2019/01/watch-320-pound-dl-khalen-saunders-backflips-like-a-gymnast/

 

-LJ Collier (TCU)  is making a name for himself after winning rep after rep.

-Charles Omenihu (Texas) had some really good reps displaying good hand fight.  However, with his super long arms he also sometimes lets the OT get into his chest too much and can't get off the block.  He is still showing that he is one of the top prospects there.

 

[Matthew Gilbert 307]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

Deebo Samuel is basically Denard Robinson, right? Offensive weapon, not a particularly skilled receiver, more of a glorified RB. He can catch, but he doesn't run any routes, and there are few contested catches. He's more likely to try to run through a tackle than make a defender miss. 

 

He's not the droid I'm looking for.

You're breaking my heart here. 

[Superman 33,988]

9 hours ago, stitches said:

I think you are underselling his route running a bit lot. He does run the full route tree. He can be a bit better beating press-man at the LOS and he seems a bit short so he probably won't be winning contested catches consistently.  He does look like a RB indeed. I am not worried about his ability to get YAC, he has explosiveness after the catch that is rare IMO... he doesn't exactly juke defenders but he does get away from them due to his acceleration and good angles he takes to get away from them. 

 

Do you like Paris Campbell more? Is he more the type you want? Because he runs more limited route tree... but he does make people miss. 

 

Haven't watched Paris Campbell yet.

 

Deebo can run away, for sure; if he catches a short pass and has room he'll get yardage. I don't see shiftiness when watching him with the ball in his hands, though. I saw him make a couple of defenders miss, but he's more prone to lower his shoulder and try to bully more yardage. Good angles, yes.

 

And I did see some routes: a couple variations of a go route, an in, and a stop. Mostly go routes and stop routes. Nothing making me think he's a refined route runner. I think Shi Smith is the better receiver, from the 3 games I watched. 

[Superman 33,988]

1 hour ago, Matthew Gilbert said:

You're breaking my heart here. 

 

I get why people like him as a college player. He's super productive, he makes big plays -- his back corner of the end zone, one handed TD catch (against Tennessee, I think?) was outstanding. I was on the stair climber and nearly fell off when I saw that.

[Defjamz26 3,925]

4 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

Wren was great in one on ones

 

 

Hand usage is what he needs the most work with. He could be a target in the 2nd round. The upside is ridiculous. If he learns how to use his hands and watch his pad level, he could be a game wrecker. I’ll see how he does today.

[bertjones7 100]

9 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Weigh-ins were very critical for me:

 

-Rock Ya-Sin’s height was greatly exaggerated. 5’11” But was listed at 6’2”

 

-Isaiah Bugs is going to fall. 6’2” isn’t cutting it

 

-Jalen Hurd never had any business playing RB. 6’4” is bigger than Derrick Henry. I can see why the people who brought him to Tennessee are no longer employed.

 

-At 275, Omenihu is an Edge player. 

 

-Renell Wren is by far the defensive player who could rise the highest during this process. He’s a walking freak.

 

-Marquise Blair needs to get in the weight room ASAP.

And what happened to Gerald Willis III?

Gerald Willis is recovering from an injury and pulled out. He didn’t play in the bowl game either. 

 

Supposedly nothing too serious. 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan 422]

From the highlights I'm seeing from the Senior Bowl practice (limited, I know), it seems like Deebo gets great separation from DB's, tho not sure how advanced his route tree is at this point.

 

Montez Sweat is a freak of nature, and as mentioned above, has very little chance to make it to us at 26. He puts on 10-15 lbs and enhances his run-stop ability, he's gonna be one of the more explosive players in the league. 

 

The 2 Wisconsin OL were very disappointing and if they don't improve, their stock will take a hit. Dalton Risner showed flashes of what he could be at the next level. This is looking like a really shallow draft for Offensive Linemen. 

 

The more I see Montez Sweat, the more I'm convinced the Colts should move into the teens to grab him. He is the guy they so desperately need to harass the passer with consistency. He is kind of one-dimensional at this juncture, but with added weight and coaching he could become a perennial Pro Bowler. 

 

Zach Allen from Boston College looks decent, seems like a watered down version of what Sweat would bring, and not sure I'd be content with the Colts using their 1st on him, maybe  one of the 2nds. I'd rather go Willis or Dre'Mont at DT, or Oruwariye/Baker at CB or even Thompson at S over taking a lesser skilled Edge guy there. 

 

Just my 2 cents on the very limited action thus far. 

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Is this offensive pass interference? 

 

I forgot to post about Anthony johnson but he had good day yesterday too. 

[Defjamz26 3,925]

1 hour ago, bertjones7 said:

Gerald Willis is recovering from an injury and pulled out. He didn’t play in the bowl game either. 

 

Supposedly nothing too serious. 

Man I wish he would have at least came for weigh-ins and interviews. The interviews would have been especially important for him given the issues he’s had in the past. We’ll see him at the combine though.

[stitches 5,235]

Here's one more under the radar prospect:

LJ Collier, DE TCU ... 6022 280lbs with long arms and a lot of twitch. 

 

[DougDew 3,075]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Haven't watched Paris Campbell yet.

 

Deebo can run away, for sure; if he catches a short pass and has room he'll get yardage. I don't see shiftiness when watching him with the ball in his hands, though. I saw him make a couple of defenders miss, but he's more prone to lower his shoulder and try to bully more yardage. Good angles, yes.

 

And I did see some routes: a couple variations of a go route, an in, and a stop. Mostly go routes and stop routes. Nothing making me think he's a refined route runner. I think Shi Smith is the better receiver, from the 3 games I watched. 

Then Deebo sounds like a player we wouldn't necessarily look for as a reliable WR, which I would say would need to have a full complement of WR skills and talent worthy of no later than round 2 value.

 

Maybe Deebo fits as a hybrid WR/Slot/RB type player that would have to have specific plays for, but that kind of player doesn't go before round 3, IMO.

 

I would say that the Colts have never had that type of athlete/playmaker IIRC, so having him on the roster at some position would be very interesting.

[Superman 33,988]

47 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Then Deebo sounds like a player we wouldn't necessarily look for as a reliable WR, which I would say would need to have a full complement of WR skills and talent worthy of no later than round 2 value.

 

Maybe Deebo fits as a hybrid WR/Slot/RB type player that would have to have specific plays for, but that kind of player doesn't go before round 3, IMO.

 

I would say that the Colts have never had that type of athlete/playmaker IIRC, so having him on the roster at some position would be very interesting.

 

He could be useful, for sure. I'm just looking for my kinda guy at the moment. I don't think Deebo is it.

[stitches 5,235]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He could be useful, for sure. I'm just looking for my kinda guy at the moment. I don't think Deebo is it.

I think we shouldn't limit ourselves to just a highly specific type of receiver. I think we should be looking for overall playmakers and players who can be reliable weapons and/or mismatches for Luck ... and for TY... 

 

You yourself are a proponent of BPA-adjacent drafting. This to me sounds more like the WR-version of need-based search for a type of receiver. And you know I'm with you when it comes to us needing desperately YAC type of weapons. I'm just not willing to sacrifice not drafting a better receiver in our search for YAC-guy. 

[Superman 33,988]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

I think we shouldn't limit ourselves to just a highly specific type of receiver. I think we should be looking for overall playmakers and players who can be reliable weapons and/or mismatches for Luck ... and for TY... 

 

You yourself are a proponent of BPA-adjacent drafting. This to me sounds more like the WR-version of need-based search for a type of receiver. And you know I'm with you when it comes to us needing desperately YAC type of weapons. I'm just not willing to sacrifice not drafting a better receiver in our search for YAC-guy. 

 

What I mean is I'm looking to find my kind of receiver in this year's draft class. Not necessarily talking about the Colts targeting that kind of receiver at any point in this draft, I'm speaking more vaguely about available players right now.

 

But, more specifically, I don't have a problem with a team aligning their system-specific parameters for players at certain positions with their draft board. If you run a zone-based blocking scheme, you're going to value more athletic linemen; if you run a man coverage defense, you're going to value DBs with man coverage traits, etc. 

 

So I'm thinking the better value on WRs in the draft is with more technical receivers on Day 2, and I think identifying those kind of players will help me set my board, in alignment with the kind of player I think would benefit my offense. 

 

If I identify that kind of receiver and then compare him with Deebo, for example, and I still think Deebo is a better player, I probably wouldn't draft the other receiver instead of Deebo. That would be reaching for need. But if I'm not convinced that Deebo is a good fit for my offense, I'm probably not going to draft Deebo, either. Same as I wouldn't draft a power blocking guard for my zone blocking OL.

 

And specific to Deebo, I'm not saying anything definitive about him, yet. Except that I don't think he's the technically proficient kind of WR that I think will be a great value on Day 2. And even that's just based on a cursory viewing of a few games, not any extensive study of him. (But I don't think you think he's the kind of guy I'm looking for, right?)

[stitches 5,235]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

What I mean is I'm looking to find my kind of receiver in this year's draft class. Not necessarily talking about the Colts targeting that kind of receiver at any point in this draft, I'm speaking more vaguely about available players right now.

 

But, more specifically, I don't have a problem with a team aligning their system-specific parameters for players at certain positions with their draft board. If you run a zone-based blocking scheme, you're going to value more athletic linemen; if you run a man coverage defense, you're going to value DBs with man coverage traits, etc. 

 

So I'm thinking the better value on WRs in the draft is with more technical receivers on Day 2, and I think identifying those kind of players will help me set my board, in alignment with the kind of player I think would benefit my offense. 

 

If I identify that kind of receiver and then compare him with Deebo, for example, and I still think Deebo is a better player, I probably wouldn't draft the other receiver instead of Deebo. That would be reaching for need. But if I'm not convinced that Deebo is a good fit for my offense, I'm probably not going to draft Deebo, either. Same as I wouldn't draft a power blocking guard for my zone blocking OL.

 

And specific to Deebo, I'm not saying anything definitive about him, yet. Except that I don't think he's the technically proficient kind of WR that I think will be a great value on Day 2. And even that's just based on a cursory viewing of a few games, not any extensive study of him. (But I don't think you think he's the kind of guy I'm looking for, right?)

That makes sense.

 

Are you against us shooting high with a second round receiver? What I mean is... technically proficient receiver is good, but if he falls to the second he probably won't be a typical X receiver. What I mean is - would you be willing to go high upside with a player that needs some development but has elite traits and is possible typical WR1 that you can isolate and rely on to get open one on one or beat his man at the catch point? A receiver like DK Metcalf for example? Or Hakeem Butler? I cannot stop thinking about those two. I think I'm falling in love with the potential of both of them. They look like typical X receiver and they have most of the traits for it but might not be that on day 1. 

[Superman 33,988]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

That makes sense.

 

Are you against us shooting high with a second round receiver? What I mean is... technically proficient receiver is good, but if he falls to the second he probably won't be a typical X receiver. What I mean is - would you be willing to go high upside with a player that needs some development but has elite traits and is possible typical WR1 that you can isolate and rely on to get open one on one or beat his man at the catch point? A receiver like DK Metcalf for example? Or Hakeem Butler? I cannot stop thinking about those two. I think I'm falling in love with the potential of both of them. They look like typical X receiver and they have most of the traits for it but might not be that on day 1. 

 

Can't speak to Metcalf or Butler, but yes, a receiver who isn't an X is fine for me in the second round, if he's technically proficient. Part of that is I want more 3WR sets, and I'm fine with Inman or another veteran to play the X receiver spot. If I'm adding a potential WR1 in the second round -- and he's the technician that I prefer -- sign me up.

[Defjamz26 3,925]

Debo seems like a 1 trick pony who will need to be schemed open. Like Supes said, I want a technical WR who can get open inside and out. I’ll take an X receiver too if the price is right. But the guy I like the most for us in that potential role is A.J. Brown. He works exclusively in the slot but his routes are a thing of beauty. He’s reallly nuanced in that regard. 

[shastamasta 1,638]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

Deebo Samuel is basically Denard Robinson, right? Offensive weapon, not a particularly skilled receiver, more of a glorified RB. He can catch, but he doesn't run any routes, and there are few contested catches. He's more likely to try to run through a tackle than make a defender miss. 

 

He's not the droid I'm looking for.

 

I think he's a bigger, stronger Chrisitan Kirk (thought probably not quite as agile). Like if Anquan Boldin moved like a RB. 

 

That's my (biased) take on him...I think he's a beast. Probably my favorite WR that isn't one of the tall vertical threat guys (like Metcalf and Brown).