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I understand that a lot of fans here want us to take an edge rusher at 26 and if not there, then the next round, but I’m not seeing the value nor the reason. I’m looking at it based on where we will be drafting 

 

The top edge rushers in this game are Bosa, Ferrell, and Allen. They’re going top 10. The next tier of guys are Polite and Burns, who most sites have going between picks 10-20. After that there’s a significant drop off, and the next guy’s are Montez Sweat, Jaylon Ferguson, Zach Allen, etc... But each of those guys have huge flaws in their game and questionable traits. The one thing that analysts mention with all 3 is a lack of athleticism and an inability to bend around an OT. None of them seem like they’re going to come in and immediately give you sack protection 

 

The other issue I see is too many mouths to feed. A scout on TDN said that the Colts just drafted 2 Edge rushers in the 2nd round last year, so they should let them develop more. I agree. Plus we still have Sheard, and Autry who is a hybrid DE/DT. Unless someone like Ferrell slips, there isn’t anyone to draft that’ll produce immediately. All the guys I listed are developmental picks much like Lewis and Turray. So unless they break out unexpectedly, you’d be drafting like a 3rd or 4th string DE. I know Ballard has said you can never have enough pass rushers, but I don’t see the point in drafting one early in 2019. 

 

We neef to focus on interior pass rushers. But even then, you have Autry who is a pro-bowl alternate starting at one DT spot. He’s still young too.

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I agree, Lewis and Turay have allot of potential and can only get better after having good seasons for the amount of time and experience they have.  I'd rather grab a solid corner in the first like Oruwariye. Heck even another Saftey to pair with hooker. In The second I'd like us to get another WR, Butler, metkalf, Harry are all great picks if some how they fall.

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I 100% agree, we need to draft a serious DT and hopefully one falls too us, I wouldnt even be mad about trading up a couple spots too get one. If not then this will be a rare occasion I am okay with taking the top WR

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1 hour ago, Hoose said:

The Colts have no pass rush. Without one they do not progress as a D. If they can find a pass rushing DT with pick 26 like Wilkins you grab him and don’t look back. 

they were actually middle of the pack in sacks last year, and even got to mahomes a few times too

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7 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

they were actually middle of the pack in sacks last year, and even got to mahomes a few times too

But the pass rush petered out the last third if the season. They got to Mahomes with the CB blitz. They don’t have the horses up front yet on the D line. At least not enough of them.  Improving the pass rush is key this off season. Which is why I hope/pray that a DT Ballard loves lasts to #26. 

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I think edge rushers are overrated.  Takes too long to get around the OT.  I prefer the Chiefs' Chris Long types.  Power rushers or interior rusher with great length.  The Pats always have very long front seven players where any one of them gets sacks, except for maybe the NT.  I've never seen a small Pats edge rusher, IIRC.

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think edge rushers are overrated.  Takes too long to get around the OT.  I prefer the Chris Long types.  Power rushers or interior rusher with great length.  The Pats always have very long front seven players where any one of them gets a sack, except for maybe the NT.

hmmmmm... if i recall correctly Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis both had pretty stellar careers and disrupted and changed several games. Players like Von miller and Joey Bosa would heavily disagree with you as well

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I want us to take a pass-rusher(if he's BPA). To me it doesn't matter if it's interior or EDGE pass-rusher. Get the best one that can get to the QB. I don't think the pass-rushers we have on the roster have shown enough to believe they are the future of this team and they can create consistent pressure without blitzing(something we need with this scheme). There is plenty of snaps to go around IMO for both the new draftee and the ones from last year to develop. 

 

I actually would be willing to trade up and get a great system fit for us like Ed Oliver if for some reason he starts falling. 

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20 minutes ago, twfish said:

hmmmmm... if i recall correctly Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis both had pretty stellar careers and disrupted and changed several games. Players like Von miller and Joey Bosa would heavily disagree with you as well

Yeah, but they only won one SB.  I didn't say edge rushers didn't have value, I said I thought they were overrated.  

 

Just asking myself, who has been the stud edge rusher for the Pats during their SB years?  I can't answer it. 

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I would really like to see the Colts use that first-round pick on a stud interior DL who can collapse the pocket, and keep QBs from stepping up. Christian Wilkins looks like a great fit for that role, and maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I'd love to see him still on the board at 26. 

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39 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think edge rushers are overrated.  Takes too long to get around the OT.  I prefer the Chiefs' Chris Long types.  Power rushers or interior rusher with great length.  The Pats always have very long front seven players where any one of them gets sacks, except for maybe the NT.  I've never seen a small Pats edge rusher, IIRC.

 

 Trey Flowers is 6'2".  :applause:     Just a #4 90 grade this season. It is more than sacks kiddo.
 Pressure Pressure Pressure
  The o-line can adjust to having just one or two to worry about. We need the whole line to be able to pressure the QB.
 And Lewis isn't athletic enough to be a quality pass rusher outside. Although i do see him as being able to take snaps where Sheard does now. And snaps inside as Ballard says. And as much as i respect Sheard as a solid player, he just doesn't quite get it done. Maybe if he had a Stud beside him he would. And pass rushers, quality players NEED time to develop. Typically into the 3rd year. Even top 10 picks, if they prove out at all. 
 So the truth is we have ONE pass rusher in development, one tweener interior pass rusher, and ....  So there is much work to be done up front.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

I want us to take a pass-rusher(if he's BPA). To me it doesn't matter if it's interior or EDGE pass-rusher. Get the best one that can get to the QB. I don't think the pass-rushers we have on the roster have shown enough to believe they are the future of this team and they can create consistent pressure without blitzing(something we need with this scheme). There is plenty of snaps to go around IMO for both the new draftee and the ones from last year to develop. 

 

I actually would be willing to trade up and get a great system fit for us like Ed Oliver if for some reason he starts falling. 

Have stated this already. If one o f the stud Dline men start falling Oliver,Williams, lawerence we need to be on the phone finding a way to move up. After watching afc championship game it’s obvious that we’ve got to get some guys that can penetrate and get pressure because I’m sure mahomes and Brady will be standing in our way next year. 

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I agree. The edge rushers in our range are the same level as Turay and Lewis. Nothing bad but a first round edge needs to be better than them.

 

I dont see Dre'Mont Jones mentioned much around here. Perfect fit for our 3 tech spot. Quick burst to penetrate gaps with pass rush moves and counters already in repertoire. He will struggle against the run early but can play behind Autry for a year and on passing downs.

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I'd look for help on DL in FA, depth and potential guys.....   Here is one I like, and think could be reasonably available for the type of contract Ballard seems to prefer for "potential" or depth guys....

 

DT - David Irving, DAL -  Was brought in to KC when Ballard was there, 12.5 sacks in 3 years, 2      games.... has had his share of off-field issues, would have to cost little, and be on a short leash for sure.... would just be turning 26 to start camp.

 

* Not sure the details of his substance abuse issues, so not sure how likely Indy would be to take a flyer, the production is there though, and still young enough to have some untapped potential

 

 

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4 hours ago, Hoose said:

The Colts have no pass rush. Without one they do not progress as a D. If they can find a pass rushing DT with pick 26 like Wilkins you grab him and don’t look back. 

Precisely. I want them to find an interior pass rusher rather than throw another high draft pick at a raw edge prospect that needs development. That doesn’t make you better for 2019. Interior pass rush will also help free up the DE’s.

 

28 minutes ago, KB said:

I agree. The edge rushers in our range are the same level as Turay and Lewis. Nothing bad but a first round edge needs to be better than them.

 

I dont see Dre'Mont Jones mentioned much around here. Perfect fit for our 3 tech spot. Quick burst to penetrate gaps with pass rush moves and counters already in repertoire. He will struggle against the run early but can play behind Autry for a year and on passing downs.

The knock on Jones is that he’s a disruptive pass rusher but struggles against the run. Since he won’t be playing in the bowl game, it’ll be hard for him to alleviate those concerns before draft day. A coaching staff will just have to believe that he can get better against the run.

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5 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I understand that a lot of fans here want us to take an edge rusher at 26 and if not there, then the next round, but I’m not seeing the value nor the reason. I’m looking at it based on where we will be drafting 

 

The top edge rushers in this game are Bosa, Ferrell, and Allen. They’re going top 10. The next tier of guys are Polite and Burns, who most sites have going between picks 10-20. After that there’s a significant drop off, and the next guy’s are Montez Sweat, Jaylon Ferguson, Zach Allen, etc... But each of those guys have huge flaws in their game and questionable traits. The one thing that analysts mention with all 3 is a lack of athleticism and an inability to bend around an OT. None of them seem like they’re going to come in and immediately give you sack protection 

 

The other issue I see is too many mouths to feed. A scout on TDN said that the Colts just drafted 2 Edge rushers in the 2nd round last year, so they should let them develop more. I agree. Plus we still have Sheard, and Autry who is a hybrid DE/DT. Unless someone like Ferrell slips, there isn’t anyone to draft that’ll produce immediately. All the guys I listed are developmental picks much like Lewis and Turray. So unless they break out unexpectedly, you’d be drafting like a 3rd or 4th string DE. I know Ballard has said you can never have enough pass rushers, but I don’t see the point in drafting one early in 2019. 

 

We neef to focus on interior pass rushers. But even then, you have Autry who is a pro-bowl alternate starting at one DT spot. He’s still young too.

 

How many impact 3-down interior rushers are going to be available at that point? It will boil down to that. If I am getting a 2 down player vs a high impact WR or DE, you have to go with WR or DE at that point.

 

There is one guy who has a great swim move, and would be a great fit for our D that is not being talked about as much here. His name is Gerald Willis of Miami. I think he might be available for us.

 

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I agree.  I'm of the belief that an ER will get free and even a few DT will as well.  Maybe as cap casualties rather than on performance.  I think Turay and Lewis have a lot of upside.  Both could make a big jump next year.  I would be surprised if it's DL/ER with 1st. pick. 

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Getting pass rush from the interior is more important going forward, so having a 1st round pick at DT who can wreck games would be the most beneficial to this defense. Autry and Lewis are nice pieces, but neither are considered game wreckers. 

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21 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

Getting pass rush from the interior is more important going forward, so having a 1st round pick at DT who can wreck games would be the most beneficial to this defense. Autry and Lewis are nice pieces, but neither are considered game wreckers. 

 

I'd like to see them keep Hunt and Woods, but I agree with this. 

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I don't care whether they take Edge, DT, CB, or S as long as it's BPA and not a WR. I made a post this morning about it, there's gonna be so many WRs that are gonna slip into the 2nd and even 3rd rounds because of the depth of defensive talent and teams reaching for QBs. I'd like to have as many picks as possible, but if it meant sending our later 2nd rounder to move up and take a true stud along the D-line, I'd be okay with that. I'd love to have Oliver, Simmons, or Gary if we could get into position, because those guys are all likely top-15 picks. 

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29 minutes ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

I don't care whether they take Edge, DT, CB, or S as long as it's BPA and not a WR. I made a post this morning about it, there's gonna be so many WRs that are gonna slip into the 2nd and even 3rd rounds because of the depth of defensive talent and teams reaching for QBs. I'd like to have as many picks as possible, but if it meant sending our later 2nd rounder to move up and take a true stud along the D-line, I'd be okay with that. I'd love to have Oliver, Simmons, or Gary if we could get into position, because those guys are all likely top-15 picks. 

I think one of the better WR prospects will be there with our first 2nd round pick. But I can also see a coveted DT, CB, or safety will n that spot. Things will start becoming more clear in the coming months. 

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7 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

The other issue I see is too many mouths to feed. A scout on TDN said that the Colts just drafted 2 Edge rushers in the 2nd round last year, so they should let them develop more. I agree. Plus we still have Sheard, and Autry who is a hybrid DE/DT. Unless someone like Ferrell slips, there isn’t anyone to draft that’ll produce immediately. All the guys I listed are developmental picks much like Lewis and Turray. So unless they break out unexpectedly, you’d be drafting like a 3rd or 4th string DE. I know Ballard has said you can never have enough pass rushers, but I don’t see the point in drafting one early in 2019. 

I agree with you.  We just drafted Lewis and Turay, and they both came as advertised:

Lewis - Highly skilled and dependable, but without a true Difference Maker ability that would make anybody afraid.

Turay - Tremendous upfield burst and twitch, but raw and unrefined, and needs to work on his game to finish at the QB.  Injury risk.

They both need to season a bit, and fully earn starting spots.

Regarding the rest of the DL, Sheard, Autry, Hunt, and Woods have little functional future ahead of them.  Give them 2 years, tops.  That's about it.

Ridgeway is a good rotating depth guy, but he's not been able to claim a starting position after three years.

If we had our pick of whatever we wanted at 26, I think it would need to be an impact DT3 like Wilkins or Gary.

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6 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Trey Flowers is 6'2".  :applause:     Just a #4 90 grade this season. It is more than sacks kiddo.
 Pressure Pressure Pressure
  The o-line can adjust to having just one or two to worry about. We need the whole line to be able to pressure the QB.
 And Lewis isn't athletic enough to be a quality pass rusher outside. Although i do see him as being able to take snaps where Sheard does now. And snaps inside as Ballard says. And as much as i respect Sheard as a solid player, he just doesn't quite get it done. Maybe if he had a Stud beside him he would. And pass rushers, quality players NEED time to develop. Typically into the 3rd year. Even top 10 picks, if they prove out at all. 
 So the truth is we have ONE pass rusher in development, one tweener interior pass rusher, and ....  So there is much work to be done up front.

I said I think short, quick, edge rushers are overrated, and mentioned the Pats because they have never seemed to value them over the past 15 years.  Not sure who you're lecturing to about all of that other stuff . 

 

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1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I said I think short, quick, edge rushers are overrated, and mentioned the Pats because they have never seemed to value them over the past 15 years.  Not sure who you're lecturing to about all of that other stuff . 

 

No,   you said this

 

8 hours ago, DougDew said:

I think edge rushers are overrated.  Takes too long to get around the OT.  I prefer the Chiefs' Chris Long types.  Power rushers or interior rusher with great length.  The Pats always have very long front seven players where any one of them gets sacks, except for maybe the NT.  I've never seen a small Pats edge rusher, IIRC.

 

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6 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

How many impact 3-down interior rushers are going to be available at that point? It will boil down to that. If I am getting a 2 down player vs a high impact WR or DE, you have to go with WR or DE at that point.

 

There is one guy who has a great swim move, and would be a great fit for our D that is not being talked about as much here. His name is Gerald Willis of Miami. I think he might be available for us.

 

No I’m definitely with you friend. I’m not one of the posters saying we shouldn’t go WR no matter what. I’ve actually said that I’d love any of the top WRs if they fall to us and they’re BPA. If Wilkins and Simmons are both gone, chances are BPA will be a WR. The QBs, LTs, elite edge rushers and interior D-lineman go early. So Towards the end of the 1st you’ve usually got top WRs, TEs, OL that aren’t LTs, off ball LBs, and safeties. Are O-line is solid although not perfect, we have a good duo at LB although we could use one to cover TEs, Our TE room is great when everyone is healthy, and while we could use a safety to go with Hooker, there’s maybe 2 with 1st round grades. So it’s likely that a WR could be the pick there.

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7 hours ago, KB said:

I agree. The edge rushers in our range are the same level as Turay and Lewis. Nothing bad but a first round edge needs to be better than them.

 

I dont see Dre'Mont Jones mentioned much around here. Perfect fit for our 3 tech spot. Quick burst to penetrate gaps with pass rush moves and counters already in repertoire. He will struggle against the run early but can play behind Autry for a year and on passing downs.

 

 I don't see the burst. I will be watching the combine and important mocks to see what they see.

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1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

No,   you said this

 

 

Well, I didn't want to be rude and ask him what in the world Trey Flowers statistics/grade have to do with my opinion that edge rushers are overrated.    Overrated is a judgement.  Stats are something else.    

 

Also, another mentioned Mathis and Freeney to me after I made my first post, the concept of short and long was out there even though that wasn't the main point

 

Does that satisfy you enough to the point where you don't have to be the forum cop who swoops in to correct everybody?

 

Not sure what the rest of his lecture was about.  

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We aren’t drafting at the top anymore. I think Ballard is interested in getting young raw talent, each one a good scheme fit and then coaching them up. There will be no trading up, only trading down for more picks because it’s like grabbing a handful of candy in a candy jar for him. He expects 7rounders to compete. 

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I'm not sure what we mean by "another" pass rusher. I'm not actually sure we've got any at the moment.

 

Sure, we've got a couple of prospects with raw potential but little output or middle of the road vets around the 30 y/o mark but nothing that would stop us drafting replacements to one of the 2nd or 3rd most important positions on the field. 

 

I don't think we can have enough players who can individually pressure the opposition quarterback either through the middle or on the edge. I'm happy to keep drafting them until we eventually get a front 4 who can make the top end quarterbacks look uncomfortable. 

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Also just to provide a visual of what I’m saying, here’s a list of some recent edge rushers taken later in the 1st round

 

-Bjoern Werner (2013) 24th

-Bud Dupree (2015) 22nd

-Charles Harris (2017) 22nd

-Jarvis Jones (2013) 17th

- Datone Jones (2013) 26th

- Shane Ray (2015) 23rd

- Shaq Lawson (2016) 19th

-Taco Charlton (2017) 28th

-T.J. Watt (2017) 30th

-Tak McKinley (2017) 26th

-Adrian Clayborn (2011) 20th

-Cameron Jordan (2011) 24th

 

The 2017 class still has time but Watt and Jordan are the only names on that list that have played great.

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1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

Also just to provide a visual of what I’m saying, here’s a list of some recent edge rushers taken later in the 1st round

 

So what's your argument then? That the guys we have on the roster should be given more time before we draft more pass rushers? Or that you don't think pass rushers at the end of the first round are worth the pick?

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

So what's your argument then? That the guys we have on the roster should be given more time before we draft more pass rushers? Or that you don't think pass rushers at the end of the first round are worth the pick?

Both. There’s 2 reasons that we don’t need to draft an edge rusher in the first.

 

1. We just spent 2 2nd round picks on edge rushers who we should let develop. And we have a veteran in Sheard

 

2. Drafting an edge at 26 would be a reach because the prospects available in the draft likely won’t be worth it. Recent trends show that this is true about most edge rushers in any given draft.

 

So to sum it up, don’t draft an edge in the 1st when we just spent two 2nd round picks on ones that could be good with more time. Especially considering late round edge prospects don’t usually light the world on fire. Sorry for any confusion.

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1 minute ago, Defjamz26 said:

Both. There’s 2 reasons that we don’t need to draft an edge rusher in the first.

 

1. We just spent 2 2nd round picks on edge rushers who we should let develop. And we have a veteran in Sheard

 

2. Drafting an edge at 26 would be a reach because the prospects available in the draft likely won’t be worth it. Recent trends show that this is true about most edge rushers in any given draft.

 

So to sum it up, don’t draft an edge in the 1st when we just spent two 2nd round picks on ones that could be good with more time. Especially considering late round edge prospects don’t usually light the world on fire. Sorry for any confusion.

 

1) Needs-based drafting, which you know I don't agree with. And Lewis isn't an edge rusher, he's a hybrid DE/three-tech who will most likely play inside on passing downs, so he doesn't get in the way of developing another edge rusher.

 

Also, Sheard is 30, an impending free agent, and only a decent edge rusher. 

 

Biggest issue with this line of reasoning is that we don't have a single edge or prospect at edge who is so effective or so promising that their playing time isn't up for grabs by a better edge or prospect. I'd cut Sheard in a heartbeat if I had to make room for a dynamic edge rusher, and I like Sheard.

 

2) So, let's give more time to our second rounders rather than develop a late first rounder? I don't get it. Recent trends suggest that teams are reaching for edge rushers late in the first round, not that there are no good edge rushers late in the first round. And if late firsts don't set the world on fire, why hold out hope that our late seconds are going to become dominant edge rushers?

 

I'm all about value, but that's determined by an honest evaluation of the players on your board. If we like an edge who's still on the board at #26, and the value lines up, we should take him. 

 

And I don't see how we look at our roster and determine that we don't have room for another young edge rusher. Turay is an unknown, Lewis isn't really and edge, and the rest of our guys are replacement level players. Edge rusher is still the biggest need on our roster. 

 

I don't want us to reach for anyone at any position. I just don't agree that there's any issue with drafting a good prospect at that position this season.

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Echoing what @Superman said above and more importantly what Ballard has said multiple times.  You don't pass up a player you really like and have graded high to draft another because of need.  The only position where this does not apply to would be QB.  Otherwise all positions would be on the table for pick # 26.  That is why these threads that have "I would not draft position X with the # 1 pick" are a mystery to me.  Ballard has said repeatedly that he would not do that.

 

As for this thread itself - the idea that an edge rusher is not a need is not really accurate.  I don't believe for a second they pass on someone they like because Turay and Lewis are already on the roster.

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53 minutes ago, Superman said:

2) So, let's give more time to our second rounders rather than develop a late first rounder? I don't get it. Recent trends suggest that teams are reaching for edge rushers late in the first round, not that there are no good edge rushers late in the first round. And if late firsts don't set the world on fire, why hold out hope that our late seconds are going to become dominant edge rushers?

 

 

Our late 2nd rounders have as much if not more upside than the projected late first rounders. I don’t think Allen, Sweat, Ferguson, Gary, etc... have any more upside than Turray and Lewis. Of the bunch, Gary is the only one who has special traits because of his elite athleticism, but he’s not really an edge rusher. Allen has no clear position fit either but doesn’t have Turray or Lewis’ athleticism. Sweat is long but is reportedly only 241. He’s got Turray’s length and is more polished with his hands and moves, but he lacks the first step explosion and elite athleticism Turray showed. Now if he comes out at the senior bowl and combine and shows more, he’s the one guy in the group I’d get behind, but as for now I don’t see it. 

 

But it do we really want another developmental edge prospect for a first? Another guy who needs to bulk up and add play strength? Do the Colts need to spend a first on an edge rusher that doesn’t have a high floor and ceiling? I don’t think so, which is why I don’t see why they would draft an edge there. Rounds 2-7 sure. But if Im taking an edge in the 1st I want a Bosa, Josh Allen, or Ferell. Guys I know are the complete package and Can start/play a lot of snaps right away. BPA for sure but currently I don’t see those guys having better grades than some of the WRs and DTs that will be there.

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1 minute ago, Defjamz26 said:

Our late 2nd rounders have as much if not more upside than the projected late first rounders. I don’t think Allen, Sweat, Ferguson, Gary, etc... have any more upside than Turray and Lewis. Of the bunch, Gary is the only one who has special traits because of his elite athleticism, but he’s not really an edge rusher. Allen has no clear position fit either but doesn’t have Turray or Lewis’ athleticism. Sweat is long but is reportedly only 241. He’s got Turray’s length and is more polished with his hands and moves, but he lacks the first step explosion and elite athleticism Turray showed. Now if he comes out at the senior bowl and combine and shows more, he’s the one guy in the group I’d get behind, but as for now I don’t see it. 

 

That's a more specific discussion about this year's prospects, and I can't really speak to that yet. But that's a different story. If you don't think the prospects that will be on the board at #26 are good enough prospects to be picked there, then yeah, don't draft them at #26. I fully agree with that.

 

But I get the feeling you'll get pushback on some of those guys; it sounds like a lot of people think Sweat is a top 15 kind of guy.

 

Quote

But it do we really want another developmental edge prospect for a first? Another guy who needs to bulk up and add play strength? Do the Colts need to spend a first on an edge rusher that doesn’t have a high floor and ceiling? I don’t think so, which is why I don’t see why they would draft an edge there. Rounds 2-7 sure. But if Im taking an edge in the 1st I want a Bosa, Josh Allen, or Ferell. Guys I know are the complete package and Can start/play a lot of snaps right away. BPA for sure but currently I don’t see those guys having better grades than some of the WRs and DTs that will be there.

 

To the bolded, no, probably not. But developing prospects is how you build a good, deep roster through the draft. I don't mind a developmental guy if I think he has a high ceiling, but again, that's based on a sincere evaluation of the player. I'm not so worried about the "right away" part of it if I think he's a good prospect and my board says it's the right time to take him.

 

I will add that edge rushers get the headlines, but interior rushers are more valuable, so I agree with a DT there.

 

I've been saying lately that I'm cool on Day 1 receivers, based on trends and what I want in a receiver. I think the technicians and the quicksters at receiver are more abundant on Day 2. 

 

And I'm almost always in favor a trade back, in the name of maximizing value.

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